How "military" should seniors be?

[mmouw]

The one thing I always thought was impressive is to have a "complete" squadron march in a parade. If you have 30-40 members, what an impression. Even if they are not all in the same uniform, it still looks like an organization and not just a youth program.

With that in mind, I think if the senior members are willing or can be convinced, then drill on.

[Stonewall]

The only D&C I've ever expected from my seniors was opening formation and, if necessary, closing formation for awards.  Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

In reality, seniors should have a  lot more to do than march.  With only about 2 hours a week to run a small Air Force, I'd rather have them being more productive.

[O-Rex]

Sometimes I would like to see the seniors make more of an effort to drill and stand for formations, like they did WIWAC but then I remind myself that the squadron works well enough as it is, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

If you're looking at things from a traditional military perspective, Officers don't drill: period.  As for formations, at least from an Army perspective (my own personal experience,) the only ones that actually stood in the formation was the Company Commander and Platoon leaders.  Your misc. officers, mostly Warrant Officer Pilots, just kind of hung in the back.

Most CAP Composite Squadrons tend to be like the example above.

As for Seniors being too-military or not military enough, I like DNall's statement that our Level one is a bit "thin" and organizationally we're kind of in the middle of an 'identity crisis' right now (Corp vs. Aux.)  Pseudo-Officers or Lodge members? The truth probably lies somewhere in-between.

Historically, In CAP you'll get the full spectrum, from folks with starched undies to "patron members on active-duty."  Most fall somewhere in between, however, it's the extremes that stand out in the minds of others, and make the impression....

Just be yourself, forthright and respectful of others as people (regardless of rank,) wear a sharp uniform (or a clean golf shirt) and you'll be fine.

[SARMedTech]

It seems to me that an officer should be as military as he or she can be given either past experience or current inclination. If we state, as many have consistently, that the cadet experience is meant to be as military as possible and they look to Senior Officers for guidance, its my belief that officers out to be as military as they are capable of being, and for me this includes not wearing and never owning a golf shirt.

And I think, most military officers, unless they became officers by some direct entry program, have stood and marched drill at one time or another. But I could be wrong, being as I am a pseudo-officer in a para-military organization.

[JoeTomasone]

Senior Members should be expected to adhere to 39-1 and CAPP 151.   Why?  'Cause it's the regs, like it or not.

As a former cadet, I'm pretty shocked to see the lax attitude concerning customs/courtesies and the proper wear of the uniform, both by seniors AND cadets - and the cadets are the worse offenders IMHO.

I'd say that 90% of the cadets I encounter don't even know that the BDU cap is supposed to be stored in the BDU pants cargo pocket when not being worn.    I've had cadets show up to group/wing activities with missing cutouts ("Our Squadron doesn't have them" - oh, I guess Vanguard is out, too), cadet officers with metal grade insignia on the BDU cap (way to lead by example!) and cadets with absolutely nothing on their BDUs - no nametape, CAP tape, insignia, nothing.   

Now, I'm sensitive to the fact that we are all volunteers and that good people are hard to find, but I think that once you start lowering standards to keep the "good people", you wind up with mostly lousy ones.   I've seen it happen in other volunteer organizations and it's not healthy.   Make people live up to the expected standard and more people will strive to get there.   If you constantly make exceptions because you "don't want to lose so-and-so", then you are essentially saying that any violations of the regs will be tolerated since the person can always threaten to quit on you.


By failing to ensure that everyone lives up to what is expected of them (i.e. the regs), you risk a program full of people who think the rules do not apply to them - and then what happens when it's something more serious?   "Oh, come on, Bob, what do you mean I need TWO seniors at an overnight activity?"

I'll say it again - if you have members who don't want to wear their nation's uniform properly or act in accordance with what wearing said uniform requires, then there are plenty of other volunteer programs that will gladly have them.  If you choose to keep such members and not require them to observe the regs, then don't complain when you have morale or discipline issues.

</rant>

[JoeTomasone]

Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

This is what I am talking about.   So essentially, it's just an act for the kids.   

(sigh)

[mikeylikey]

And I think, most military officers, unless they became officers by some direct entry program, have stood and marched drill at one time or another. But I could be wrong, being as I am a pseudo-officer in a para-military organization.

You are correct.  In fact New AF Officers drill and stand in formations at their basic course at Maxwell.  

As far as Officers go in the Army, most are in formation for morning PT (which is before the duty day, unlike the AF).  Staff Officers are usually found in their own formation behind the formation for official functions.  I know I had my Staff stand with everyone else for retreat each evening.  When I took Command, the practice was enlisted would fall outside for retreat and the Officers would sneak away at that time.  I put an end to that, and would then take my Officers for a run Monday-Thursday and drinks at the club on Friday.  (That is not very typical, but built stronger relationships between the Officers)

[SARMedTech]

Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

This is what I am talking about.   So essentially, it's just an act for the kids.   

(sigh)

Which once again gives the false impression that CAP is a non-profit, part time military school. Follow the regs involving all matters, or retire, whether you are a senior or a cadet. Its just not that difficult.

[Stonewall]

Other than that, I enforced proper customs and courtesies such as returning salutes to cadets and between each other in the presence of cadets.

This is what I am talking about.   So essentially, it's just an act for the kids.   

(sigh)

For the most part, yes.  Like it or not.  I'm a former cadet too, in FLWG.  Also prior active military and current Guard.  I think you're worried about too much of the small stuff when you expect senior members to salute each other.  Traditionally we should, and I do.  But I learned a long time ago as a young senior member that it ain't going to happen and worrying about it is a waste of time.  It gets old hearing  a 60 year old Lt Col tell me, a young lieutenant or captain, to stop saluting him "there's no cadets around".  No sense in making an issue out of it when that 60 year old has our admin section inspection ready at any given time.

While you and I may practice such customs and courtesies, regardless of cadets being in our presense, it isn't worth making an issue out of others not doing the same.

See, even the "Setting the Example" section of my 24 page Senior Member Handbook said so.

Some rules to live by as a senior at Fairfax

•   No smoking in the presence of cadets.
•   No consuming alcohol or being intoxicated in the presence of cadets.
•   No profanity in the presence of cadets.
•   If not in uniform, seniors should wear appropriate clothing not promoting drugs, alcohol,
    smoking, or profanity and should be in good taste in general.
•   When you think cadets are not looking or paying attention, they are.
•   Always use proper military customs and courtesies.  If saluted, return the salute.  Address
    cadets by their rank (or as "cadet") and last name.
•   In the presence of cadets, address fellow seniors by their rank and last name.  Respect
    and customs and courtesies are contagious.
•   Never let cadets see or hear seniors argue, or otherwise acting unprofessional.
•   If you wear CAP's military style uniform, you must meet weight and grooming standards.
•   Treat cadets as young adults, not as children.  Let them make some mistakes, but do not let
     them get hurt.
•   You are encouraged to interact with cadets.  Curious?  Ask them what they're doing, but try
    not to interfere if they are engrossed in a class or project.
•   Enjoy our program!

Emphasis mine.

[addo1]

I would just appreciate some guidance on this? I was a cadet for many years and we were always drilling and making sure our military courtesy was up to snuff, now I'm a senior and I'm getting reminded about not being so "military" so I wonder, how "military" should we as seniors be?

  Well, we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary.  I have never heard that either.  I think that all members, whether cadets or senior members should mantain a sense of discipline and courtesy.  It is important for all members, as it helps us keep a sense of unity.

[JoeTomasone]

I think you're worried about too much of the small stuff when you expect senior members to salute each other.  Traditionally we should, and I do.

No, actually, I'm worried about the big picture.   If we Seniors don't walk the talk, how do we expect to have Cadets doing the same?   For that matter, who gets to decide which regs need to be followed and which are, well, optional?   

  But I learned a long time ago as a young senior member that it ain't going to happen and worrying about it is a waste of time.  It gets old hearing  a 60 year old Lt Col tell me, a young lieutenant or captain, to stop saluting him "there's no cadets around".  No sense in making an issue out of it when that 60 year old has our admin section inspection ready at any given time.

OK, so you are concerned that pointing out to a Lt. Col (who should know better) that adherence to the regulations is something you feel is important, cadets present or no, opens you to retaliation?    I'd give that Lt. Col. a piece of my mind and then tell the I.G. that if CAPP 151 is optional, then it's not really insubordination, is it?

[/quote]

While you and I may practice such customs and courtesies, regardless of cadets being in our presense, it isn't worth making an issue out of others doing so.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this.   I'm all for a friendly work environment, but I draw the line at a wholesale disregard of what is right and proper.

Tell me, does that Lt. Col address the WG/CC as "Chris" or "Sir"?

[Stonewall]

OK, so you are concerned that pointing out to a Lt. Col (who should know better) that adherence to the regulations is something you feel is important, cadets present or no, opens you to retaliation?    I'd give that Lt. Col. a piece of my mind and then tell the I.G. that if CAPP 151 is optional, then it's not really insubordination, is it?

No, I'm not concerned about it.  I'm not worried about it at all.  I guess you're a tough guy and would tell the Lt Col to go home or you'll call IG on him.  Meanwhile you just took 5 more hours of squadron work home with you.

Tell me, does that Lt. Col address the WG/CC as "Chris" or "Sir"?

At a wing commander's call, at the bar, in the airplane or during our annual Christmas gathering at the Wing King's house?  Well, it depends on which Wing Commander you're talking about. 

Let's see if I can remember them all.  I would have called them Gene, Stan, Rolland, Frank, Jane....

If we were at an FTX, encampment, or model rocketry weekend, I'd call them Colonel, sir, ma'am, or whatever appropriate.

Here's the environment I came from:

Our Comms guy was a Major and retired AF Chief Master Sergeant.  I had a Deputy Commander for seniors who is a retired army colonel.  A leadership officer who was an active duty air force captain.  An AEO who is a former army captain.   While me, I'm a CAP Lt Col and at the time, an E-5 in the Air Guard.  If they don't want to salute me, I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch.  Good thing is, we had good training and I didn't get uptight or freak out about these types of things so they understood what to do and when to do it.  So it was never an issue.

Treat them as if they must salute you and I think you'll find some Resistance.

[jeders]

Being a former cadet officer and a current senior member, here's what I think. As lots of people have said, follow the regs as best as possible and be professional, the little things will work themselves out.

Not having been in the Air Force, I don't know if this is exactly how it works, but here is my understanding. When you're under AETC doing your training and such, you do all of the things that people think of as "being military". Drilling, inspections, etc, etc... Once you get to the "operational" Air Force, you still salute and use proper customs and courtesies, but all the other things like marching and being anal retentive over salutes and such sorta goes out the window.

To bring this to CAP, cadetland should be run more or less like AETC, whereas seniorland is more like the operational Air Force. As long as the job gets done and everyone is professional about it, who cares if most seniors know how to march.

[SARMedTech]

The odd thing is, in other threads, we have heard much talk about how the USCGAUX isnt military enough, because they dont salute or use ranks. Well we do both, or at least we are supposed to, and we are only half para-military.

If it has a higher rank than you do, salute it. If it doesn't call it cadet and treat it respectfully.

[jimmydeanno]

If it has a higher rank than you do, salute it. If it doesn't call it cadet and treat it respectfully.

It puts the lotion on its body...

I don't know that too many 50 year old Captains would appreciate me calling them "Cadet." 

[PA Guy]

Part of the problem is that fewer and fewer senior members have any prior military experience.  The result of this is that some have a very warped idea of what day to day life in a military unit is like.  If you asked the typical USAF field grade officer when they last drilled you would probably get a blank stare.

Yes, you wear the uniform according to 39-1, salute when appropriate and use titles when called for. However, the Kabuki like atomsphere sometimes found in the cadet program doesn't work in the senior program or the everyday USAF.

[Smithsonia]

I've seen it go both way. Some Militaristic Commander want a spit-shined cadre that can leave some of us Seniors perplexed. OR, too casual and informal commanders leave things left undone and Senior members unsatisfied. Some of us have long and highly successful "civilian" careers. Some of us have done major things. Even some of us have worked as civilians among the military for many years and have spoken as appreciated lecturers offering thought provoking ideas and concepts to the highest echelons of the military. I've worked for the Marines, Navy, NASA, Homeland Security, and a few more. I think it is a "When in Rome" thing. Commanders and cadre need to be pliable.

Don't denegrate an active member for Fat and Fuzzy for instance. That guy may be exactly the right guy for things the military won't understand or come across for another 20 years.

Appreciation of the best and brightest, hardest working and most energetic, best person for the job v best presentation on the job... should count for something.

In my squadron I'm proud to be among people from varied backgrounds pulling in the same direction. Some are/were accomplished military pilots with fine war records, some pilots with 30 years at only civilian airlines, some just good ol boys who want to dedicate themselves to their country. Shaming a senior for a minor uniform dig... doesn't always help accomplish the mission.

I'm not that military myself. BUT, on a few things, I've got Generals and Admirals in the Pentagon paying plenty for my work. The real deal professional military wants the insight, they don't care a darn about my saluting technique. Your mileage may very, of course...

Modesty, accomodation, plasticity, trust, understanding, and appreciation of the diversity in the squadron are my recommendations.
With regards;
1Lt. Ed OBrien
CO/WG Heritage Project Coordinator

PS -- I do appreciate the military guys in my squadron who know how to throw a proper salute, pull off the proper bearing, follow all the rules of protocol. They are inspiring enough to make me want to practice and get better at it. In this way I follow through their inspiration... I don't want to let them down... I want to do it better... "When I AM in Rome." So to speak.

[RiverAux]

Unless you are considering marching in a parade, having seniors doing drill is probably a bit too much.  Standing formation, ok. 

[lordmonar]

It's all about the mission.

In the RM we use drill for a specific purpose.  After we acheive that purpose we don't use it anymore.

If we need to be more "military" to accomplish the mission then let's define the objective, come up with a training plan and execute it.

But IMHO we don't need it.

[DC]

Unless you are considering marching in a parade, having seniors doing drill is probably a bit too much.  Standing formation, ok. 

I agree, unless they are training a Drill Team there is no practical reason for seniors to drill or know how. However, I would expect them to be able to stand at attention for 10 minutes for a formation and be able to properly execute a salute. The vast majority of seniors I have interacted with could not, or would not do either one. It just irks me, because its not that difficult, spend an hour or two getting the salute down, and standing at attention, for crying out loud, all you have to do is stand still and not look around. To me that is not too great of an expectation, and it would go a long way toward cadets and the more military oriented seniors having more respect for them.