Too much locking.

[Dragoon]

Quite frankly it's his basement, his rules.  If you can't live by that, what the heck are you doing in a military organization?

(and yeah, if I was running it, I wouldn't lock so much.  But I'm not.  So it ain't my call)

[Nomex Maximus]

Quite frankly it's his basement, his rules.  If you can't live by that, what the heck are you doing in a military organization?

(and yeah, if I was running it, I wouldn't lock so much.  But I'm not.  So it ain't my call)

<snaps to attention> "Sir! I am doing the best I can - SIR!"

What on earth does being in a military organization have to do with anything?

[Major Carrales]

I recommend PM'ing one of the administrators if you have any comments regarding the moderation of this site (I promise you'll get more progress and be better received than you will by calling moderators out in public).

Yes, do that...so they can make an example of you with an indirect flipant comment...

sidebar*
Folks, please don't PM the mods to shut down threads because you simply don't like them.

Choose to ignore.  mmmkay?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3613.msg68756#msg68756

Can't say I dislike the moderators.  The there are those that say, "go out and start your own forum."  Others, "I hate posts about the forum."  Well, as was said before; when a forum passes a certain number of members it stops being a forum and starts being a community.   People invest in and take ownership of their communities.  It too much locking is an issue, well it is an issue.  Address it.

This is a precarious place, order is needed, but sometimes...

"The world would be much better off if people would stop trying to run it, and leave the 'Godding' to God." -Grandpa

[ColonelJack]

"The world would be much better off if people would stop trying to run it, and leave the 'Godding' to God." -- Joe Ely Carrales, III 

Sparky,

There's something just ... unsettling ... about a person who quotes himself.  (Or are you quoting another Joe Ely Carrales?)

Okay, maybe unsettling isn't the right term.  What is the word I'm looking for?



Jack

[Major Carrales]

"The world would be much better off if people would stop trying to run it, and leave the 'Godding' to God." -- Joe Ely Carrales, III 

Sparky,

There's something just ... unsettling ... about a person who quotes himself.  (Or are you quoting another Joe Ely Carrales?)

Okay, maybe unsettling isn't the right term.  What is the word I'm looking for?



Jack

Opps, I was quoting my Grandfather.  I'm just used to typing ",III" after it.

[BlackKnight]

I wanted to insert a poll asking when we think this thread will be locked. 
But I can't find an option to insert a poll into an existing thread.  So we'll try this.

Question: When should this thread be locked?

• Lock it NOW!
• On New Year's
• After 999 posts or bottles of beer
• Never

[Major Carrales]

I wanted to insert a poll asking when we think this thread will be locked. 
But I can't find an option to insert a poll into an existing thread.  So we'll try this.

Question: When should this thread be locked?

• Lock it NOW!
• On New Year's
• After 999 posts or bottles of beer
• Never

Locking the post will do several things...

1)  Be ironic
2) Confirm the agendists that there indeed is a conspiracy by the mods to silence thier positions
3) Confirm to the revolutionaries that the tyranny will go on
4) destroy the popularity of the mod that locked it
5) someone will continue to start another one until the forum is shut down, causing others to open forums that will swell with membership

[NIN]

Speaking as someone who has had to "walk the line" as an administrator of a popular Internet site concerning cadets and (largely) Civil Air Patrol, allow me to say this, about that.

Moderation comes down to community standards.  At CadetStuff, we elected to keep the modding to a minimum and only lock/remove/mod those posts that were outrageously egregious or clearly out of line.

Sometimes we let discussions/threads go on WAY too long.  OK, that's fine.  What we found is that the community of readers/posters (collectively "participants") tended to throw a little nudge or adjustment into some of our more vehement posters when they got out of line, enforcing the "community standards" among themselves without resorting to "calling the cops" (mods).  Sort of like neighbors chatting across the fence to each other: "Hey, there, Stonewall, nice car going to pot in your yard.  It sure is an eyesore...." versus "Hey, local PD, my dirtbag neighbor has an unregistered Studebaker in his yard with weeds growing out the hood. Its an eyesore!  Can you tell him to move it?"

The key is that a) the community has to be familiar with the basic published standards, and later, familiar with the "locally accepted practices" that surround the published standards; and b) the community at large has to be generally following the guidelines.

I don't often see very much of that here.

[SarDragon]

I have, at times, sent PMs to members discussing various aspects of their posts, as a part of this self-policing idea. Some folks respond favorably, and make the requested changes.

Many aren't so cooperative. Sometimes I get a strong MYOB; other times I get a blast, asking "who the **** are you to tell me how to post?". Still others just offer excuses why their posts look like crap.

Bottom line - I don't do that so much any more, because it's turned into a waste of my time.

[Dragoon]

Quite frankly it's his basement, his rules.  If you can't live by that, what the heck are you doing in a military organization?

(and yeah, if I was running it, I wouldn't lock so much.  But I'm not.  So it ain't my call)

<snaps to attention> "Sir! I am doing the best I can - SIR!"

What on earth does being in a military organization have to do with anything?

Simple.  Military organizations have commanders.  They make the rules.  You follow the rules, or you quit. 

You know, just like this website.

I'm having difficulty imagining someone who can't handle the authority of a  humble web site owner not causing all kinds of headaches for a CAP commander.

[ADCAPer]

Understandable since this was a year of contentious events.

Well, that could be one factor, but I'm not sure it's the only one. I don't have the time or the access to investigate any further, so your theory carries as much weight as anything else I can think of.

I personally think that at least part of the problem, or possibly contributing to the perception, is the few self appointed moderators who relentlessly patrol this board looking for reasons to be offended and then requesting that topics be locked when they don't agree with the way the thread is going.

[ADCAPer]

Simple.  Military organizations have commanders.  They make the rules.  You follow the rules, or you quit. 

You know, just like this website.

I'm having difficulty imagining someone who can't handle the authority of a  humble web site owner not causing all kinds of headaches for a CAP commander.

WHAT!  Sorry to break this to you, but military Commanders (as well as CAP Commanders) do not make the rules.

I guess this will be end of this thread, because this is way off topic now, but someone has to throw a major BS flag here.

A commander exercises authority over their subordinates due to their status as a superior commissioned officer, and that authority is based on the rules and the regulations that are enacted by the Congress. In case you hadn't noticed, these subordinates are also all volunteers, who have sworn an oath to "...obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

I don't know where you got the idea that military members could either follow the rules or quit. The only options are to either follow the rules or prepare for the consequences, which are outlined in the UCMJ. You may decide to not follow the rules, and this may in fact get you removed from the military, but it won't be because you decided to quit.

Also, CAP commanders, like real military Commanders, often discover that they have problems with their troops when they decide to make up their own rules instead of following the regulations that are put in place for them to follow.

The difference is that the real military ensures that their Superior Officers are provided with at least a basic level of leadership and management training before they set them loose on their first set of unlucky subordinates. They may not have it figured out before they end up in charge, but it helps them understand that their subordinates will do things for them as the Commander because they have to, but it's much better to have them working for you because they want to.

Unfortunately, CAP is not the real military, and there is no way that CAP can provide  even the basic level of training that a real military officer receives. For that matter, most volunteers will never have the time or the desire to complete that much training.

The bigger problem is that CAP is a military affiliated organization, with a large percentage of volunteers who have a real military background, and every now and then you end up with an individual in charge who either has no military background, but thinks that they do, or worse yet, couldn't make it in the real military and decided to quit, yet thinks that they know enough from four years in the real military to qualify as a Colonel in CAP. At some point they finally run into someone who throws a BS flag on their attempt make the rules, and then the problems begin.

[Nomex Maximus]

Quite frankly it's his basement, his rules.  If you can't live by that, what the heck are you doing in a military organization?

(and yeah, if I was running it, I wouldn't lock so much.  But I'm not.  So it ain't my call)

<snaps to attention> "Sir! I am doing the best I can - SIR!"

What on earth does being in a military organization have to do with anything?

Simple.  Military organizations have commanders.  They make the rules.  You follow the rules, or you quit. 

You know, just like this website.

I'm having difficulty imagining someone who can't handle the authority of a  humble web site owner not causing all kinds of headaches for a CAP commander.

"...can't handle the authority of a humble website owner..."

Guys..... this is a website. No one here is under the authority of any of the moderators. They are not in any chain of command, as if being in CAP actually gave anyone any authority over anyone. This is not a military organization either, this is a website.

Y'all need a real big dose of reality here.

Cheers,

[JayT]

Quite frankly it's his basement, his rules.  If you can't live by that, what the heck are you doing in a military organization?

(and yeah, if I was running it, I wouldn't lock so much.  But I'm not.  So it ain't my call)

<snaps to attention> "Sir! I am doing the best I can - SIR!"

What on earth does being in a military organization have to do with anything?

Simple.  Military organizations have commanders.  They make the rules.  You follow the rules, or you quit. 

You know, just like this website.

I'm having difficulty imagining someone who can't handle the authority of a  humble web site owner not causing all kinds of headaches for a CAP commander.

"...can't handle the authority of a humble website owner..."

Guys..... this is a website. No one here is under the authority of any of the moderators. They are not in any chain of command, as if being in CAP actually gave anyone any authority over anyone. This is not a military organization either, this is a website.

Y'all need a real big dose of reality here.

Cheers,

No, I think you do.

This website is private operated. Meaning that we post here at the pleasure of whoever owns it. If the powers that be, who run this website, decide that certain topics are not to be discussed, then we can either A. Appeal to them B. Stop posting here or C. Deal with it.

It appears that you have a problem with para-military structure in CAP. Since you appear to outrank me, I won't tell you to 'deal with it,' but I do suggest you should reconsider your attitude.

[Pace]

No one here is under the authority of any of the moderators.

No one has ever claimed the mods are in your CAP chain of command, but if you choose to participate on this site you are bound to the Code of Conduct at the discretion of the mods and admins (which is clearly stated in the CoC).

This is the point Dragoon was trying to make and it's very simple.  The rules are in place.  The mods and admins have discretion over the conduct of this website.  If we ask you to cease a line of comments or decide to lock or remove a topic, that's it.  If you think it's unfair then by all means contact the admins via PM and ask them to look into it.  If you're still unhappy, then please don't let CAPTalk cause you any more stress or headaches.

I don't plan to respond to this topic again, but my finger is twitching over the lock button after a few of the comments I've seen.  Last warning.

Happy posting!

[BlackKnight]

I don't plan to respond to this topic again, but my finger is twitching over the lock button after a few of the comments I've seen.  Last warning.

Hah!!  I KNEW this thread wouldn't survive long.

Reading it is like watching the movie Tombstone: 

I'm your Huckleberry;

Say when...   

[Nathan]

I personally think that at least part of the problem, or possibly contributing to the perception, is the few self appointed moderators who relentlessly patrol this board looking for reasons to be offended and then requesting that topics be locked when they don't agree with the way the thread is going.

...Right... that's exactly how moderating works..

In CAP, there are SO many better ways to have a power trip than over a bunch of whiny CAP members on this board.

As has been so blatently and ironically pointed out by our Latin-pun loving friend,

Guys..... this is a website. No one here is under the authority of any of the moderators. They are not in any chain of command, as if being in CAP actually gave anyone any authority over anyone. This is not a military organization either, this is a website.

If you want, you can leave. You aren't being compelled, ordered, or forced to be part of this community, and the mods don't have the authority to keep you here if you don't want to be here. If you DO choose to participate, then you have to play by the rules of the guy that controls the ability to throw you out of the sandbox.

And if you don't like that, then refer to the second sentence of the above quote, which states that there is no chain of command. This is not a democracy. Think of it like a benevolent dictatorship. They have the power, they choose who has the power, and that's the way it is. From what I know about these guys from other boards, they tend to be pretty upstanding people, so I can't imagine them being any different as moderators. They have stated numerous times that they will listen to your complaints, but just because they are granting you the right to be heard does not mean that you have the right to be listened to.

Stop trying to apply democratic principles to every aspect of life. You can go wave your flags and root democracy all the way, and believe than anything you CHOOSE to participate in that doesn't support a fully democratic view is just wrong, but you may...

...need a real big dose of reality here.

Thanks, LT!

[Major Carrales]

Stop trying to apply democratic principles to every aspect of life. You can go wave your flags and root democracy all the way, and believe than anything you CHOOSE to participate in that doesn't support a fully democratic view is just wrong, but you may...

Yes, and that reads as American as Swastika Armbands and Black Undershirts.

I think a point is missed in this thread that is of importance...

The idea is not "Fascistic Moderators" more than it is inconsistency.

I can assume this is so since this place is not monitored "full time."  If there was a paid mod 24/7, that was applying justice equally, that would be a different matter.

There are some issues with the culture in here.  I have already mentioned "community."  Intended or not this is one of the largest CAP Communities...ANYWHERE!!!  Where else can people from across the ENTIRE Civil Air Patrol gather together in one place and "chat" on issue ranging from double-breasted service coats to the lastest REDCAP.

The moderators would be fools not to consider that, or to throw it away based on paradigms like...

If you want, you can leave. You aren't being compelled, ordered, or forced to be part of this community, and the mods don't have the authority to keep you here if you don't want to be here. If you DO choose to participate, then you have to play by the rules of the guy that controls the ability to throw you out of the sandbox.

I have made contact via this forum through chit-chat, even some that has been locked for being too "annoying to a mod" that has resulted in benefits to my unit. 

Many of you laugh and scoff at the idea of an "Official CAP NATIONAL FORUM."  I find that interesting and am left wondering why.

Any forum, once it has gathered synergy, grows beyond the intellectual control of its moderators.  That is the nature of forum communities.  Are there alternatives to CapTalk?  Yes.  There are many.  But I will write again,  The moderators would be fools not to consider what they have here, or to throw it away based on the megalomanical paradigms described in the above quote.  Threadsters need Moderators to exists and Moderators exist for the Threadsters, if not, why have a forum at all?

[Nathan]

I can assume this is so since this place is not monitored "full time."  If there was a paid mod 24/7, that was applying justice equally, that would be a different matter.

There are some issues with the culture in here.  I have already mentioned "community."  Intended or not this is one of the largest CAP Communities...ANYWHERE!!!  Where else can people from across the ENTIRE Civil Air Patrol gather together in one place and "chat" on issue ranging from double-breasted service coats to the lastest REDCAP.

What is being failed to be considered is that the moderators here are all on the same leash. They may have different personalities, different tolerances, and so forth. If we were really going to attempt to have every mod be the exact same person, then that would reach a lot closer to a Nazi forum than it is now. Understandably, you have different people with different ideas.

However, a moderator has to be appointed by the administrator. There is no way around that. And when a moderator is appointed by an administrator, then the administrator is basically saying, "This person has the authority to enforce the rules I have set and that you have to obey if you want to participate in this community." If a moderator screws up, then they are reprimanded by the administrator and other moderators, albeit in private.

The moderators are doing what they are allowed to do, and if they keep locking threads of a particular nature or for a particular reason, then it only stands to reason that they are doing so with the owner of the board's permission. Your beef isn't with the moderator; talk with the admin. If you can get the admin to change his mind, great. If not, then attacking the moderators certainly isn't going to get anything accomplished.

Any forum, once it has gathered synergy, grows beyond the intellectual control of its moderators.  That is the nature of forum communities.  Are there alternatives to CapTalk?  Yes.  There are many.  But I will write again,  The moderators would be fools not to consider what they have here, or to throw it away based on the megalomanical paradigms described in the above quote.  Threadsters need Moderators to exists and Moderators exist for the Threadsters, if not, why have a forum at all?

Because not every threadster decides that they would rather have a mob-run forum. As the moderators have already been compared to police once, we'll use it again. The police exist to catch criminals. The criminals do not exist for the police. The criminals exist to do what they want, and the police work to stop them from doing that. The police DO exist only if criminals exist, but then again, this would only be a bad situation if all people were either criminals or police.

This is certainly not the case in real life, and it's not the case here. As NIN pointed out earlier, CadetStuff requires very, very little modding. It's not because we are "nicer" over there, or that the rules are more lax (although I am not familiar enough with this forum to compare). But I know that the posters at CadetStuff don't generally do anything that requires extensive modding.

In your analogy, you are assuming that all Threadsters disagree with the moderation here, or that all Threadsters are wishing there to be some sort of change. That is simply not the case. Most of the posters here seem to obey the rules, and if something unfair happens, they go through the proper channels (ie NOT posting a ridiculous topic like this and piss of the mods even more) to solve it. If it's not solved, then they either suck it up or go away, and that seems to be what many people do. Try posting again in a month or so and keep the conversation from getting derailed. If you have one person continuously getting your threads locked, talk with a moderator and see what can be done. But, while you are correct in that forums oftentimes take on a life of their own, that does not mean that the life trumps the rules of the person who owns the board, nor does it mean that the majority of those making up the community wish that the moderators would change their ways.

If we could have a world without criminals, we could have a world without police, and that's not a bad thing. If we could have a forum without bad apples, we could have a forum without moderators, and that's not a bad thing either. But given the very nature of this thread, it seems that this board does need moderators, and this thread only exemplifies that for everyone to see.

[Major Carrales]

Because not every threadster decides that they would rather have a mob-run forum. As the moderators have already been compared to police once, we'll use it again. The police exist to catch criminals. The criminals do not exist for the police. The criminals exist to do what they want, and the police work to stop them from doing that. The police DO exist only if criminals exist, but then again, this would only be a bad situation if all people were either criminals or police.

Specious at best, if no one comes here to post, there will be no need for moderators.  There is no purpose for a moderator if there is no one posting.  Moderators are supposed to delete comments that are offensive to the state policies, not curtail discussions they find personnally annoying. 

Locking posts because "There is a post on this made last year," is ridiculous.  Doing so and demanding the use of the SEARCH function resulting in a three year old post coing back into the fray, then having another moderator lock a post because "its is an old post," is even more ridiculous.

There are some subjects that are going to be recuring.  Once a post passes its 5th page, it is basically impossible to comment upon with out spending 30 mins to and hour on.  So, a quick answer (which would save up to an hours time of moot posts) is greeted with the distainful comment "use the search engine" or "we have commented on this already.

This is certainly not the case in real life, and it's not the case here. As NIN pointed out earlier, CadetStuff requires very, very little modding. It's not because we are "nicer" over there, or that the rules are more lax (although I am not familiar enough with this forum to compare). But I know that the posters at CadetStuff don't generally do anything that requires extensive modding.

You forget that I too visit CadetStuff.org.  Was it not I that made protests over the disgraceful "UNIFORM" posts where people began name calling and remarking about the vitriolic and childish comments being made about CAP Officers and Cadets behind their back.  As I recall, people told me (in to so polite posts) to "mind my own business" or "if I didn't like it not to read it."  Is that the core value of integrity?  I think not.

Seems I recall some posts by certain folks at CadetStuff that required quite a lot of modding.  What is different here is that there are many former cadets, like Capt Naugle, and others that "self-moderate" and "self-appointedly" moderate the forum.  They are somewhat invested in it because they have taken ownership of if (in the sense of emotional investment), going back to the concept I have brought up about synergy leading a forum to become a community.

Don't confuse the concept of a BLOG, like CapBlog where Midway Six beings with commentary and invites reactions, with a forum, which is member driven.

In your analogy, you are assuming that all Threadsters disagree with the moderation here, or that all Threadsters are wishing there to be some sort of change. That is simply not the case. Most of the posters here seem to obey the rules, and if something unfair happens, they go through the proper channels (ie NOT posting a ridiculous topic like this and piss of the mods even more) to solve it. If it's not solved, then they either suck it up or go away.

You presume to assume what I am thinking?  Curious. 

This is a foum that has long developed its own culture.  There are personalities here that would take volumes of tomes to document.  There are numerous high level "lurkers" and even "incognito" types who fly test balloons of new policies and observe the reaction of the largest most stable on-line forum in CAP.

There are no "proper channels" here like in CAP proper.  A post like think fishes out opinions and would best serve as advice, rather than to "piss off" moderators.  If people feel a certain way on a matter they are honor and integrity bound to make their feelings known.  A fellow CAP Officer of Cadet is honor and intergrity bound to read it and asess its value.

If we could have a world without criminals, we could have a world without police, and that's not a bad thing. If we could have a forum without bad apples, we could have a forum without moderators, and that's not a bad thing either. But given the very nature of this thread, it seems that this board does need moderators, and this thread only exemplifies that for everyone to see.

Moderators best keep in mind that they are as much a part of the forums here as the code that makes it visible.  Their actions, and lack thereof, effect the polulace.  They, like all of us, are the ultimate arbitors of their actions.  I should hope that they are reading this thread and planning actions that are in the best interest of the forum, what ever those actions my end up being.  This type of thread is meant to help them see that they are no better than us and we no better than they.