age and rank

[isuhawkeye]

I have watched a few other threads unfold, and in these threads Officer's rank has been a driving factor.  I find this interesting because as a CAP Lt Col in Iowa I was asked to apply for the upcoming wing commander position.  These requests came form staff, unit commanders, and general members.  Normally this wouldn't be worth posting in the forum, but I am 29 years old.  I have been in CAP for 10 years, I was not a cadet, and I have served as a unit commander. 

With the rare occasion of young wing commanders on the horizon, What are your thoughts.

[Falshrmjgr]

I think it's both a pro and a con.

Pro:  Young, energetic, innovative, motivated.

Con:  Makes my teeth hurt to think of a 29 YO Full Bird.  (And plenty others I am sure.)

Frankly I think the pros outweigh the cons.  I know someone pretty quick will throw out the typical ages of Military 0-6's.  And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

I read somewhere recently that the West Point Class of '39 produced almost 60 Regimental Commanders by 1945.

Drive on, and let the old fogies deal.

[SDF_Specialist]

Personally, I don't care what age my Wing Commander, Region Commander or National Commander is. As long as that member can make the decision based on what's best for the organization and its members, the person will have my full support. Age in CAP kinda resembles age in marriage; it doesn't matter who is old, just how much you both love each other. Hawk, I say go for it. If you meet the qualifications, and have that many people behind you, you obviously have what it takes to lead a Wing.

[Stonewall]

I was and am still a young Lt Col.  I was a former cadet but it really didn't matter as far as my promotion through the senior member ranks because I only had the Mitchell and the personnel officer at my squadron lost paperwork so the 6 months it would have taken me to earn 2d Lt was irrelevant when it came to "advanced promotion" due to the Mitchell...

Perhaps your maturity level is far beyond mine and I'm certain Iowa Wing is a tad smaller in size and numbers compared to Florida.  But I personally wouldn't take on the Wing King job until I was about 40, with 10 more years under your belt of CAP experience.  You've already commanded a squadron, but what about a group?  What about Chief of Staff position, Vice Wing King or Wing Director of CP, PD, or OPs?

While I don't think holding those positions I listed above should make anyone a shoe-in for the big job at wing, I could see the argument of holding one of those positions a prerequisite for selection.  Not 100% convinced, but definitely see how it could be used as a tool.

Personally, on a friendly fellow-younger-Lt Col level, I could forsee you getting burned out as a 30-something Wing King.  Also, just as we experience sometimes simply being younger colonels, it can be somewhat challenging to convince our elders that we are in fact competent, and I hate wasting time trying to persuade them when that time could otherwise be used on more important matters.

With all that, if I were in your wing, I'd be happy to serve under you.  You little whipper-snapper.

[RiverAux]

As a general rule, you either need to be fairly well off or retired or both to do the Wing Commander's job the right way.  Not many youngsters meet those criteria.  Its not so much a money issue I guess, but a time issue and up until their 40s a lot of people are too busy with jobs and raising kids to take it on. 

As far as rank, I don't think age is an issue. 

[ZigZag911]

As a rule, I think wing CCs ought to be mid 40s, at minimum.....I know there have been exceptions, some of whom did quite well....but I think one needs the 'life experience' as well as CAP experience to do the job properly.

[jimmydeanno]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

[ZigZag911]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

When that was written into the Constitution, 35 was middle-aged!

And, even so, we've not had a President younger than 42 or 43....so if it's good enough for The Leader of The Free World, it's good enough for CAP!

[jimmydeanno]

Yes, you're right, JFK was the youngest president at the ripe old age of 43.  I do believe that the POTUS has a little bit more responsibility than a CAP Wing CC, Region CC or National CC.  Age shouldn't be a factor, merely abilities.

[riffraff]

My 2-cents: If you're qualified for the job, more power to you. A 29-year old CAP colonel is no different than a 29 year old fire chief. If you're qualified, you're qualified.

As already noted, CAP ranks are only relevant within CAP and really have no true meaning outside the organization. So comparing a 29 year old Wing CC is really just a comparison of that person to other CAP Wing CCs, not a comparison of CAP vs USAF/et al.

[Stonewall]

Size of the wing will also play a major role.  DC wing had like 400 members.  FL wing has thousands, maybe as many as 5,000, I don't know. 

The fire chief thing is the same thing.  There was a 32 year old fire chief in Palm Valley, FL that averaged 2 1/2 calls a day.  A small VFD with 2 trucks and a handful of volunteers.  Compare that to a chief at a full-time FD in a major city that averages 15 calls a day.

[isuhawkeye]

Just for a reference I have not applied for the position. 

I am interested in the discussion

[riffraff]

I think RiverAux has nailed the real consideration. Will your life afford you the time necessary to do the job properly?

[SStradley]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

Well, they pay the President of the United States.  I think the biggest issue will be the time involved.  Does someone in their 20s or 30s (or even 40s) have the spair time to do the Wing King job?

Isuhawkeye, if you have the time then go for the job.

[Dustoff]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

And I hear that it's at a higher pay grade than Wing Commander!

And John, you don't have any children.....yet!

(Unless there's something you want to share with us, Mr Newlywed)

They will SIGNIFICANTLY impact your free time!  (but it's worth it - I keep telling myself that....)

Jim

[Short Field]

Isuhawkeye, if you have the time then go for the job.

Ditto.  Throwing your hat in the ring should be a matter of you deciding if you have the time to commit to the job.  Selection should depend on picking the best qualified.

[SarDragon]

Yes, you're right, JFK was the youngest president at the ripe old age of 43.  I do believe that the POTUS has a little bit more responsibility than a CAP Wing CC, Region CC or National CC.  Age shouldn't be a factor, merely abilities.

JFK was the youngest elected President. Teddy Roosevelt was our youngest President, at 42, when he succeeded McKinley.

[isuhawkeye]

Thanks for the votes of confidence, but I have already made my decision. I did not intend this thread to be about me.  I intended it to be a talk about the age of our officers. 

Can young officers make affective wing commanders

Should our Officer track take longer to complete?

Is it so easy to promote, or should there be delays in place?

[JCW0312]

Size of the wing will also play a major role.  DC wing had like 400 members.  FL wing has thousands, maybe as many as 5,000, I don't know. 

The fire chief thing is the same thing.  There was a 32 year old fire chief in Palm Valley, FL that averaged 2 1/2 calls a day.  A small VFD with 2 trucks and a handful of volunteers.  Compare that to a chief at a full-time FD in a major city that averages 15 calls a day.

15 calls per day in a major city? I hope you mean per truck. 

Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[RiverAux]

I haven't done an age breakdown by rank for my Wing, but based on personal observation only, I'm pretty sure we haven't had a Lt. Col. in their twenties in a very long time.  We've got several Majors in that age range.

From what I've seen, most CAP members in their twenties are former cadets and a 25-year old Captain has probably been in CAP almost 12 years and has probably become a very experienced ground ops guy, is very familiar with the cadet program, and probably has some, but not usually a lot of air ops experience.  I'd probably rather have that guy than some new person that has been in for 5 years or less running the wing even if they're much older and generally experienced. 

[jimmydeanno]

And I hear that it's at a higher pay grade than Wing Commander!

To me, that only stregthens the argument for younger CAP Wing CCs...

[arajca]

Thanks for the votes of confidence, but I have already made my decision. I did not intend this thread to be about me.  I intended it to be a talk about the age of our officers. 

Can young officers make affective wing commanders

Should our Officer track take longer to complete?

Is it so easy to promote, or should there be delays in place?

1. As with any commander, it depends ALOT on the individual. Ideally, a wing commander should have served in a series of command and command staff positions before becoming wing commander - including at least a year as CoS or CV.
2. What is the average TIG for military officers? I'M NOT MAKING ANY ASSUPTIONS OR STATEMENTS ABOUT CAP OFFICERS BEING EQUAL TO MILITARY OFFICERS. If it takes an average of five years for a military officer to promote from Capt to Maj, CAP shouldn't be using three years.
3. There shouldn't be arbitrary delays built in. The TIG mentioned above has some basis other than someone decided "## years sounds good." As for being easy, I think that opens a WHOLE different can of worms.

[O-Rex]

Some wings are easier to run than others: CAWG TXWG and FLWG have Groups that are bigger than some wings-Those 'superwings' are a full-time job in themselves, so being retired or financially independent is a plus (I believe Bowling, our last successful Nat'l CC, was both.)

Nonetheless, there is something to be said for those seasoned CAP Officers who are a bit "crinkly of eye and gray of hair." 

Reason why we don't have twenty- or thirtysomething Wing-Kings is because at that age, most folks are pursuing careers, raising families, and generally keeping up with the Jones's-that takes up time.

The alternative? Well, do you really want a "wunderkind" Wing Commander who is 33, single, has no life outside of CAP and lives with his mom???

Many CAP members remind me of Baruka from Willy Wonka: "I want it NOW!"

Pace yourselves, folks: CAP membership is not a destination, but a journey: enjoy the ride....

[RiverAux]

The TIG mentioned above has some basis other than someone decided "## years sounds good."

Thats a pretty big assumption. 

[Ricochet13]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

Hummm . . . interesting observation.      

I would judge any wing commander based on at least two basic criteria.

1)  Do they have the requisite people, knowledge, leadership, etc. skills to insure that the wing can accomplish its missions.

2)  Do they have the requisite insights and abilities to act in the best interests of the people who volunteer their time to accomplish those missions.

Those skills may, or may not, come with age, but think they are important to possess regardless of age.

[Camas]

You've stated that a number of people have encouraged you to apply for the wing CC position.  Anyone receiving that kind of encouragement, regardless of age, has to be highly respected and that his or her efforts on behalf of the wing is recognized.  The age factor doesn't even come into play.  Whether it's you or any other young CAP officer this has to be a huge vote of confidence.

[flyguy06]

I am a former cadet and when I turned senior at age 21, I was automatically a 2 nd Lt. That was in 1989. I am not a Capt.

So, yes, I could probably have been a Lt Col by now at age 38, but I chose not too. First of all the pay is the same so it doesnt really matter to me that much. But more importantly, and the first responder was right. I believe CAP should mirror the military (The modern day military , please do not refernece WW2 and prior. Those were totally differant times)


It does seem kind of strange to me to see a 20 something year old Lt Col. It deosnt seem like real rank to me and I would find it odd to call him Colonel. Its just because I am used to one thing and for some people change is uncomfortable.

[flyguy06]

I am a former cadet and when I turned senior at age 21, I was automatically a 2 nd Lt. That was in 1989. I am not a Capt.

So, yes, I could probably have been a Lt Col by now at age 38, but I chose not too. First of all the pay is the same so it doesnt really matter to me that much. But more importantly, and the first responder was right. I believe CAP should mirror the military (The modern day military , please do not refernece WW2 and prior. Those were totally differant times)


It does seem kind of strange to me to see a 20 something year old Lt Col. It deosnt seem like real rank to me and I would find it odd to call him Colonel. Its just because I am used to one thing and for some people change is uncomfortable.

Ironic to this discussion, I put in for Maj tonight at our meeting.

[flyguy06]

Frankly I think the pros outweigh the cons.  I know someone pretty quick will throw out the typical ages of Military 0-6's.  And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

Thats a debatable point. Some people like myself, who have spent time inthe sandox dont really equate the current situation with WW2 or Vietnam. I for one do not. SO, too me this isnt the same kiind of war time mentality that long ago wars had.

[SarDragon]

FYI, CAWG has a member who was a Lt Col at 31. He seems well qualified to be there.

[Eclipse]

You've stated that a number of people have encouraged you to apply for the wing CC position.  Anyone receiving that kind of encouragement, regardless of age, has to be highly respected and that his or her efforts on behalf of the wing is recognized.  The age factor doesn't even come into play.  Whether it's you or any other young CAP officer this has to be a huge vote of confidence.

I agree - throwing out the comparisons to similar RealMilitary® grades for a moment - 10 years of experience in just about any situation is plenty to be considered for key leadership positions (assuming you're engaged in a direction leading to leadership), that certainly holds true for similar organizations such as the BSA, ARC, and most corporate environments.

And for those who are concerned about seeing such a young face with eagles on the shoulder, don't worry - that first year will age him about 10 and set things right!   

[Cecil DP]

FYI, CAWG has a member who was a Lt Col at 31. He seems well qualified to be there.

PAWG had a Major who was 21. Can't recall his name, But he was appointed a Captain for having earned the Spaatz Award and than Major for taking command of a Group. 

[JCW0312]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

Hummm . . . interesting observation.      

I would judge any wing commander based on at least two basic criteria.

1)  Do they have the requisite people, knowledge, leadership, etc. skills to insure that the wing can accomplish its missions.

2)  Do they have the requisite insights and abilities to act in the best interests of the people who volunteer their time to accomplish those missions.

Those skills may, or may not, come with age, but think they are important to possess regardless of age.

I have to agree. Age shouldn't be a factor in this. Most members in their 20s or 30s will not have the skills, insight, etc to serve in that capacity, but if they do - no problem here.

[DeputyDog]

I was and am still a young Lt Col.  I was a former cadet but it really didn't matter as far as my promotion through the senior member ranks because I only had the Mitchell and the personnel officer at my squadron lost paperwork so the 6 months it would have taken me to earn 2d Lt was irrelevant when it came to "advanced promotion" due to the Mitchell...

I will be an "under 30" Lt Col next year. I am a former cadet as well, but didn't quite make it to Mitchell (I only made Doolittle because I "did little" during my last eight months or so as a cadet). I've been active for all but nine months as a senior member since I was 18.

You've already commanded a squadron, but what about a group?

Iowa does not utilize the group structure, as well as a fair share of the other wings. Being a wing commander of the Rhode Island, Iowa, Florida or Kansas wings requires four very different wing commanders.

To me, it depends more on the person's level of responsibility, maturity and ability to handle it than the age. I've had 50 year old senior members (who have the 20 year device on their Red Service Ribbon) who I couldn't trust to mail a simple report in when I provided them with a stamped, addressed envelope. Conversely, I've had 25 year old senior members in that same boat.

A few months ago, I had the opportunity to take the command of a geographically large (not personnel-wise) group. I had to turn it down, and subsequently stepped down from group staff as a result of my decision to continue on with my education (I'm going for my Ph.D). Some people above me in the chain of command felt that I could do it, but I knew I didn't have the ability to do it. Working 40 hours a week and working on my Ph.D would have made me a "paper" group commander.

Can young officers make affective wing commanders

I don't see why they could not, given it is the right person. What makes a wing commander effective? Is that dependent on age?

Should our Officer track take longer to complete?

Yes. I'm now looking forward to the possibility of having 40 or 50 years time in grade as a Lt Col (I'm not "retiring" from CAP until I die).

Is it so easy to promote, or should there be delays in place?

It is very easy to promote. The delay could be as simple as requiring the completion of SOS in addition to RSC for Level IV.

[dwb]

Wow, Lt Col at 29!  And I thought I was moving quickly!

If you had the desire to be the Wing CC, and you thought you could bring something to the job, then I would say you should have applied.

Does age matter?  Sort of.  I know I wasn't as good at 22 or 23 as I thought I was.  I think there are things -- soft skills, people skills, temperment -- that come with age that can prepare you to be a better leader.

I also think, especially for someone who became a senior when they were young (18-25), that you should have several other types of assignments before becoming a corporate officer (Sq CC, Sq staff, Group/Wing staff, something in CP, something in ES, maybe a stint as Wing Chief of Staff or CV).  The more types of roles you serve in, the more facets of CAP you'll be exposed to, and the more well-rounded you'll be when you ultimately do take command.

[Stonewall]

15 calls per day in a major city? I hope you mean per truck. 

Just throwing numbers out there.  I have no clue what a busy fire station looks like...

Regularly scheduled program...

The good news is, you are only 29.  You could wait 10-11 years, then go for Wing King and still be a very young Wing Commander at age 40.  Where does CAP need a 30 year old?  Behind a desk full-time, signing paperwork?  Approving promotions?  Arguing with 70 year old former wing commanders?  No, a 30 year old should be leading squadrons of quality troops; where the rubber meets the road.  Making your mark where it really counts.  What would you do in 3 years after being Wing Commander?  Be region CC?  National?  Again, leave that for later in life. 

Like I said before, I'd say this to any 30 year old.  If you were to become Wing CC, I'd support you 100% and respect your decision through and through.  I'm just saying about the age thing, you've got plenty of time.

[isuhawkeye]

Guys,

this has been a great discussion. 

for those of you who want to know more about me.  I was a squadron CC, Ive been on staff at 3 encampments, and two national special activities.  I have served as wing Director of Emergency Services, and am currently working as the Homeland Security liason officer which requires me to interact with other Lt Col's at their level.  As much as we discount our rank system is is amazing to see just how highly these "Real" officers hold our rank.  Finally I am an IC level 1 with nearly 50 missions under my belt including one mission which could be classified as a type 1 mission under the FEMA system.

With that aside I have a question for you.

When we pick our wing commanders how do we look at those leaders.  Is it appropriate to take a 20 year Lt col who has plodded his way up the ranks, or a faster mover with a vision and a direction for the orgonisation

[tribalelder]

The Wing CC is probably nearly a full time job.  Your life needs to be in balance.

Someone young and bright and energetic may have the available energy to divert from non-CAP life to do the job well.  (ASSUMPTION-If married, your  spouse must FULLY supports your membership.)   Isuhawkeye has support from brother-members who are encouraging his application for Wing CC-peer confidence is a big endorsement.  GO FOR IT.

An alternative approach is a Wing CC who may have a a lower energy level but no longer needs to work for a living - someone who has raised his or her children, has a stable home life and is successfully retired or semi-retired.  Risk here is that you get a politician.  It's probably cheaper to 'run' for Wing CC than local sewer commissioner, and the Wing CC gets that snazzy suit.

[tribalelder]

Youthful enthusiasm and vision are needed. 

As our ELT missions (which I suspect are the biggest reason the USAF keeps us)  are now waning, CAP needs to figure out who our customers should be and what our products are for the next 20+ years.  Some new blood in our corporate leadership NOW is probably a good idea.

GO FOR IT.  If you don't try, the answer is already no.  That could mean us old fogeys win by default.

[Stonewall]

When we pick our wing commanders how do we look at those leaders.  Is it appropriate to take a 20 year Lt col who has plodded his way up the ranks, or a faster mover with a vision and a direction for the orgonisation

Neither.  The guy in between.

I was the latter.  I got promoted quickly because meeting the requirements for promotion was part of the PD program.  For me, it wasn't the rank, but the experience and knowledge I gained from attending courses and taking ECI-13, as well as RSC.  I feel that I needed those things to make me a better CAP member.  Just so happens, accomplishing those things put rank on my collar when the time came.

What we need is a manager with excellent leadership ability.  Someone who knows the ins and outs of running a corporation yet can still shoot the breeze with the line troops; get dirty and carry his weight.  Someone who will spend an equal amount of time focusing on the cadets as he/she does with operations.  AE is easy if you ask me, so that is irrelevant when it comes to picking a Wing King.  Physically, the CC should be a person of stature.  Someone who actually looks like they're a leader; in charge.  A professional image who doesn't get caught up in BS about flags on sleeves and saucer caps.  Someone who will absolutely be the buffer between their subordinates in the wing and anyone holding a position higher than wing who thinks they can step on some junior officer because they're at region or national.  Be a protector of their men!  

Don't bash a guy because he took 20 years to make Lt Col vs the guy who took 10.  The previous guy may have been a full-time student while in CAP and rightfully paid more attention to his school books than CAP.  Or was a parent of 2 or 3 kids and again, thought it to be more important to raise kids than earn rank in CAP.  I wouldn't say that 20 years is a "slow pace" to achieve Lt Col.  I would say, however, that 10 years is a bit fast.  And yes, I did the latter.

I'm not one of those guys who say "we're not the real military, our rank doesn't mean anything", it's our own rank, it's CAP rank.  We set the guidelines for how we promote, no the Army, Navy or whoever.  It's not like we're trying to be an Air Force Lt Col, we're a CAP Lt Col.  So I agree with you when you say those folks at HLS recognize and appreciate our rank.

If I were to select a Wing Commander, I'd look at a lot of things.  I mean, isn't like applying for a job?  A job that is, for the most part, being a CEO of a major company or organization?  You wouldn't hire a McDonald's manager to head a Health Insurance company, would you?

I'd look at education.  Civilian employment experience.  Military or public safety background.  Knowledge of aviation.  Can he talk the talk with a big whig from Cessna?  Can he hold his own at a formal dinner with the State Adjutant General of the National Guard?  Can he talk politics?  Can he operate a DF?  What's his criminal background?  Is he a speeder?  What about him personally?  Did he convert his POV into some Ghost Busters response vehicle with lights, sirens, and decals?  What is his track record in CAP?  Sure, he promoted to Lt Col in 10 years but what other significant contributions to CAP has he made?  How did he run a squadron?  Was it thriving and active compared to others?  Did they just do ES or were the equally balanced?

Just some random stuff I'd want to know about someone applying for Wing King.  Time for my meds.

[flyguy06]

FYI, CAWG has a member who was a Lt Col at 31. He seems well qualified to be there.

I didnt say it didnt happen. I know a lotof well qualified 30 something year old CAP Lt. Col's. I just said its hard to get used to seeing it when you are used to something else.

[flyguy06]

I dont have a problem withanyone being Wing CC regardless of their age. It doesnt really affect me. I will never meet the guy. I was just saying its odd to see.

Just like its odd to see a Police Chief in charge of a 75 police officer department wearing four starts.

[davedove]

I mean, isn't like applying for a job?  A job that is, for the most part, being a CEO of a major company or organization?

That's an important point.  Wing Commander is the first level of being a corporate officer.  When you are a Wing Commander, all those agreements have got your signature on them.  It's not like being a lower level commander, where you pass everything up to wing.  You will be legally binding the corporation.  That takes a certain level of maturity, but not necessarily age.

[flyguy06]

age+experience=maturity a lot of times

[capchiro]

I think age and maturity go together just because age has to equal some kind of experience.  This isn't a slam, just an observation.  The other thing that is highly improtant to look for in a CAP leader is some type of leadership skills in working with VOLUNTEERS.  Some of our younger leaders want to try to give orders and have people jump and it just doesn't happen in a volunteer organization.  A leader has to have the ability to involve people in the overall idea and have them buy into it and believe in it.  Then when you ask them to do something, they will.  This is the biggest difference in us and the military and it is a huge difference.  This is also why some of our prior service are not our best leaders.  They are used to giving orders and having them done.  In CAP, you must convince someone to do something before it will get done.  I am not saying it is right, it just is..

[A.Member]

Generally speaking, age should be irrevelvant.  

As was stated numerous times earlier, so long as a person is truly qualified and motivated.  Go for it.  

IMHO, some younger blood is good.  There is far too much old, dead wood at the top.  In addition, however, it should be a prerequisite for command positions at Wing level and above to hold a pilot certificate, with very few exceptions.  I've simply observed too many issues related to procedures and operations from non-pilots.

[capchiro]

Ah yes, the old "only pilots in command position" story.  I think the Air Force used to be that way, but they outgrew it as they got older and more mature..

[isuhawkeye]

this is very interesting ans begs the question.

are we selecting our wing commanders properly?

we seem to put a lot of weight behind years of service and not focus, direction, or the in intangables that have been talked about here.  What should our orgonisation do to ensure that these skills are utelised?

I'm typing this on my phone.  sorry for the errors

[flyguy06]

Ah yes, the old "only pilots in command position" story.  I think the Air Force used to be that way, but they outgrew it as they got older and more mature..

I wonder about that . I have seen very few nonrated senior officers inthe USAF.

back on topic though

[Stonewall]

I'm typing this on my phone.  sorry for the errors

LOL    I was about to suggest that a wing commander should have strong communications skills.  Not talking on a radio or programming a ham, but writing and speaking skills, not to mention grammar.  But you're on your phone, so I'll let it slide this time. 

[Stonewall]

are we selecting our wing commanders properly?

I don't even know what the process for hiring a new wing commander is.  In the  past, I've seen an email go out asking for applications/resumes.  Not sure if that's the official way or not.

we seem to put a lot of weight behind years of service and not focus, direction, or the in intangables that have been talked about here. 

I think we've actually argued the opposite.  Yes, "years of service" is a factor, but not the most important, or even second most important.  Simply, "years of service" demonstrates that the person should have a grasp on the program as a whole, but as we've all seen, a 40 year CAP member can be just as damaging as it can be an asset.  Focus, direction or the intangibles are all part of the package that should also be a part of the best candidate for Wing Commander.  But many of those things are just words, like what politicians say when running for President.  You can have great focus and direction, but that stuff will only come to light after you've become Wing Commander and proved what you said can actually happen. 

What should our orgonisation do to ensure that these skills are utelised?

Accountability.

[mikeylikey]

And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

Thats just not true.  Wartime and Peacetime have the same promotion rates today.  40 years ago, perhaps it was different, but today when your Battalion Commander or Squadron Commander gets killed on the battlefield, the next person in line may take over, but they are not promoted to the next grade.

Having young Leadership in CAP is NOT (I say again, NOT) a BAD THING!!  The membership is growing older (SM's).  I hope this brings in a new generation of CAP Officers.

[flyguy06]

And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

Thats just not true.  Wartime and Peacetime have the same promotion rates today.  40 years ago, perhaps it was different, but today when your Battalion Commander or Squadron Commander gets killed on the battlefield, the next person in line may take over, but they are not promoted to the next grade.

Having young Leadership in CAP is NOT (I say again, NOT) a BAD THING!!  The membership is growing older (SM's).  I hope this brings in a new generation of CAP Officers.

So do I.

[Stonewall]

Wonder what the average age of seniors in each rank group.  As in, what's the average age of CAP Lt Cols and so on.  Anyone have a method of finding out.

[JCW0312]

I think age and maturity go together just because age has to equal some kind of experience. 

There's always exceptions to the rules. We all know a few middle-aged plus folks who aren't exactly mature. The opposite is true when you consider that there are a few younger folks that are exceptionally mature even though in their twenties/thirties. Again, it's going to be a case-by-case basis, but I see no need to put a required number on it. We'd never say that you can't hold a staff position if you're over 65 y/o because so many people go senile...  

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that there are probably never very many applicants to be Wing Commander in the first place so a big part of who gets the job is who wants the job. 

[DNall]

This is a fun little disucssion for me. I'm a Major, just turned 32 yesterday, joined CAP as an 18yo SM 14 years ago Feb.

I have thousands upon thousands of hours of real world ES experience. Some dirty finds & a save in there. Lots of multi-agency big time stuff. I'm in a large active Wg & I have more experience than probably 90%+ of people here. Been to all the schools, done all the highspeed stuff. Now, if I want to be an IC, on comes the cold shoulder, but here I'll get a mission call to work for a guy that's been in CAP a couple years & doesn't know the job? What the hell?

I'm primarily a Cadet Pgms officer. I've been involved in helping to create, either directly or from behind the curtain thru cadets, some pretty big stuff in this wing. Yet people have come along since then & now think they are the demi-god in charge & I'm not worthy of having touched anything on the alter at which they worship? What the hell?

You wanna talk about life experience? Tell me about the 40yo, couple years in CAP, no mil experience, sat in a cubical all their lives, never accomplished anything. now here's me. I got my 14 years highspeed CAP experience, in the national guard about to commission. I made a million bucks in the private sector working my butt off. I've been Sr VP of operations for a multi-million dollar interstate company. I've served on the board of a major national non-profit (operations again). I'm a fairly dynamic guy that refuses to fail. So how do you measure the quality of my life experience against joe blow over there? Is he really going to be a better officer, make better decisions, have a better chance of success? If we were going across the pond to take some fire, who would you really rather have up front? But you know what, I'm gonna get screwed every time in CAP.

Being under 40 in this org is kinda like being black in the middle of segregation. Some people are smart & big enough not to let it matter, but some people are absolute idiots that can't see past their own prejudices. That's my take on the matter, and I give it with the utmost respect.

Far as Wg CC, run like hell from the BS job.

[Dragoon]

I think what I'm looking for in a Wing CC is a track record of CAP success.  I don't really care how many years you have in.  What I do care about is that:

1.  You've been a successful squadron commander who can point to a list of above-average accomplishments in that job.

2.  You've done the same thing at Group (if your wing has groups)

3.  You've done the same thing in at least one primary Wing Staff job.

4.  You have made some contributions to the Wing at least the areas of Cadet Programs and Emergency Services

5.  You're rated aircrew (pilot or observer)

6.  And it would be nice if you've served as a Vice or Chief of Staff. (so you've got the big picture view)


If you've got those blocks checked, regardless of age, you've got my vote.  If not, regardless of age, I think you might want to map out a path that includes these things.  And yeah, it may take a few years, and yeah, that means you won't be as young.  But you'll be MUCH better qualified.

(In the absence of a guy with all of the above, I'd look for the guy with MOST of the above.)

While the intangibles matter, choosing based on the intangibles alone without a CAP track record is like betting on a horse you've never seen run.

Oh yeah, I forgot #7 - enough time and energy to really do the job without destroying your personal or professional life.  I turned down Wing CC for reason #7.  Mebbe someday when the kids are grown...

[Stonewall]

Far as Wg CC, run like hell from the BS job.

I should have just said that from the beginning instead of trying sugar coat it    Truthfully, if I were asked to be Wing CC, in my current or former wing, two totally opposite ends of the spectrum, I'd say "thank you, but hell no".

Excellent post, DNall.  

[John Bryan]

I think we miss the bigger issue. We have wing commander who have only completed level 3 and were Majors at the time of their appointments. I think we need to require level 5 and Lt Col.  Age is overrated....we have some younger officers who are better prepared to be wing commander then some of our grey haired friends.

We have debates on this site about the age of wing commanders, Lt Col's, and even Spaatz Cadets. I think we need to look at what people earn not how old they are. Give people what they earn and don't worry about how many times they have gone around the sun

I know we have talked about military history....so I give you the example of the Medal of Honor. The youngest American to EARN this was Willie Johnston who was just 12 years old when he earned the award. I am glad President Lincoln did not say "Yeah he earned it but he's kind of young".

[Stonewall]

I think what I'm looking for in a Wing CC is a track record of CAP success. 

While I agree with this statement, along with a few of your points following it, I would absolutely take their experience, education, and accomplishments outside of CAP into consideration rather than just their CAP experience.

I've delivered pizzas for Dominos before while working another job full-time and in college full-time, while at the same time serving in the Army National Guard.  But I wouldn't consider a person who has termendous accomplishments in CAP for 10+ years but has settled to deliver pizzas solely to fund his love for CAP.  I'm not saying you have to be a self-made millionaire or be sportin' an Air Force Cross, but the right man for the job needs to have a diverse background that is relevant to running a business along with leadership experience; coupled, of course, with a good amount of CAP experience.

Just food for thought.  YMMV.

[Stonewall]

I know we have talked about military history....so I give you the example of the Medal of Honor. The youngest American to EARN this was Willie Johnston who was just 12 years old when he earned the award. I am glad President Lincoln did not say "Yeah he earned it but he's kind of young".

Even the biggest of war heroes aren't suited to lead a CAP wing.  Well respected and praised as they should be, but being an E-4 with a Silver Star means you faced adversity and overcame.  Without a doubt, a tremendous quality in a person, but that 22 year old Silver Star recipient still needs some experience, training and schooling before leading a platoon of men.

I absolutely agree that age, per se, is not a huge issue when considering someone for appointment as Wing Commander.  But with age comes experience in life, leadership and trial and error.  I could absolutely find a 25 year old that could  be a better wing commander than a 50 year old, but only if we were basing it on age alone; which is ridiculous to consider.  I'm definitely not arguing the age issue here, but the overall qualification of a candidate for the position.  And like was said before, wings vary just as much as wing commanders.  Texas Wing is not the same beast as Delaware or Rhode Island.  Just a few things to ponder.

[Ned]

I think what I'm looking for in a Wing CC is a track record of CAP success.  I don't really care how many years you have in.  What I do care about is that:

1.  You've been a successful squadron commander who can point to a list of above-average accomplishments in that job.

2.  You've done the same thing at Group (if your wing has groups)

3.  You've done the same thing in at least one primary Wing Staff job.

4.  You have made some contributions to the Wing at least the areas of Cadet Programs and Emergency Services

5.  You're rated aircrew (pilot or observer)

6.  And it would be nice if you've served as a Vice or Chief of Staff. (so you've got the big picture view)

Not a bad start, but we need to set the bar a little higher for CP involvement.

I'd suggest at least a "senior" rating in the CP track.  After all, about half the folks in any given wing are CP-oriented (cadets and the seniors assigned to cadet and composite units that spend most of their time supporting CP).

If you're gonna require a rated aircrew member, then we should require similar levels of qualification for CP.

Ned Lee

[isuhawkeye]

I'd suggest at least a "senior" rating in the CP track.  After all, about half the folks in any given wing are CP-oriented (cadets and the seniors assigned to cadet and composite units that spend most of their time supporting CP).

Riding this logic train we need to ensure that the wing CC is ES rated as well

[Tim Medeiros]

That would be settled by item 5 in Mr Lee's quotation.

Although, same logic would dictate a rating in the AE specialty track, can't forget mission #3.

[ZigZag911]

Ultimately, all this depends on the character and abilities of the person under consideration.

Can a talented officer in their 30s run a wing successfully? Certainly....but if I had someone ten years older with similar experience & qualifications, my preference is to go with the older officer.

I was a major in my early 30s (Earhart cadet); I was convinced I'd make a splendid wing CC

Looking back, I'm pretty sure I was mistaken!

In any event, if there were iron-clad criteria for wing CCs, I'd be less concerned.

If Level 4 completion was mandatory, a term as squadron or group CC, acquaintance with all 3 missions (and a degree of expertise in one), and a responsible staff job at wing or region were all absolutely required, no exceptions, no waivers, no GOB deals....then I could care less if a wing CC was in their 20s, let alone 30s, because there would be a reasonable level of training and experience supporting that officer's leadership.

The way things were up until August, however, gave me great concern with ALL NB appointments.

[Dragoon]

I'm not really worried about any specialty track qualifications.  But the guy's got to understand cadets, and he's got to understand how CAP manages and employes airplanes.

The "rated aircrew" was shorthand for ensuring that the guy has a decent understanding. Planes are the single biggest risk area for the CAP corporation (they kill people), our most expensive asset (millions) and the thing our customers keep asking for.    I guess I'd waive this if his previous command experience at squadron and group involved managing airplanes.

A CP rating is nice, but if the guy can point to specific CP accomplishments (like working TAC at encampments, organizing cadet activities, etc), then he's probably got enough knowledge to not screw it up.  Ditto ES.  I wouldn't want a guy who's done nothing, but he doesn't need a senior rating, or be an IC. 

I guess I'd also prefer that his squadron command was in a composite or cadet unit rather than a senior squadron, for the reasons you specified.


Remember, we're not looking at a guy who can do it all - we're looking for a guy with enough appreciation of it all to manage a staff of experts.

[capchiro]

It seems like some of the best leaders, commanders, are those that don't know everything, but do know that they don't know everything, and do know how to surround themselves with people that do know how to do everything or at least where to find the answers.  This seems to equate with success..

[arajca]

I'd like to see wing commanders (and anyone applying for the position) have a masters rating in any specialty track. To get that far, you have to know something about CAP and how higher echelons work.

[Tim Medeiros]

our most expensive asset (millions) and the thing our customers keep asking for.

Personally, I prefer a commander who doesn't think this.  I prefer a commander who feels that our most expensive asset is our people, and that is actually what our customers keep asking for.  How many communities ask for a plane to march in a local Veterans Day parade?  All those that I know ask for our people.  Without the people, we wouldn't have the plane, or the van, or the mission.