Social (drinking) functions around cadets

[Stonewall]

OBTW:  I wholeheartedly disagree with the comment regarding Officer and Enlisted Clubs; "The whole purpose is to drink in uniform there."  Obviously you have not attended an officer's or enlisted call on an Active Duty AF Base.  Not all enlisted members or officers drink when they attend a function at either the the Officer's or Enlisted Clubs.  Of course we do have those folks who do not drink in moderation and get sh.. faced and eventually embarrass themselves.  Just like we do at CAP functions...

Gear down big shifter, I was basically making a joke there, since every function I've attended at an NCO/O-club, from PJ graduations to wedding receptions have involved people drinking in uniform.

My opinion on drinking in the presence of, or the potential presence of cadets, is to not do it.  Have I done it?  Yep, absolutely.  After the fact, a couple cadets said to me "dern Major Bowden, we thought you were like this pure adult that didn't do anything wrong...  Something to that affect.  It was at a wing awards banquet at Bolling AFB's O-Club where there was a "seniors only social hour".  The problem is, how can it be seniors only when cadets often require a ride from seniors.  Granted, I had one or two drinks socially, it is nearly impossible to stay out of site from the cadets.  Not to mention, even a couple of drinks can give the odor of alcohol.

I never thought of myself as "pure", heck, I party it up, drink, dance, and do all the fun stuff that every soldier, airman, and all around normal guy does.  But when I thought about it, in front of cadets, I'm on my best behaviour.  They only see me a few hours a week and see me as "the man in control".  Often times they don't see the flaws that even we see ourselves.  Some how, we keep them at home, which is a good thing.  I think.

Drinking during after training events, classes, or activities that only involve seniors, totally cool and I even recommend it.  Like graduation dinner at Region Staff College or maybe after a PDW.  Absolutely, I'd be there.  But something inside me just makes me think that while nothing bad may come of it, nothing good can come from cadets being witness to a senior holding an alcoholic beverage in uniform where they will interact.

Drinking alcohol does not mean people are evil, do stupid things, embarrass CAP or even have the potential to cause harm.  Enjoying alcohol has been the norm and a custom for a lot longer than we've all been alive.  I see no harm in it.  But again, in my opinion, I say cadets should not be exposed to it.

[dwb]

I used to think that having alcohol at Wing Conferences and the like wasn't appropriate.  Now it doesn't bother me as much, for a couple reasons.

1. Casual alcohol consumption is something a lot of adults do, and the cadets know they do, so why try to hide it?

2. Drinking responsibly, and still enjoying the social function, is a very important lesson for young adults to learn... as long as the senior members are able to set the example.

3. In the rare case that a senior member embarrasses him/herself, my experience has been that the cadets see right through it, and lose some respect for the senior member.  IOW, they don't see it as a good thing.

I remember cases, as a cadet and as a senior member, where senior members had a little too much to drink at CAP social functions.  The vast majority of people consider this to be roundly inappropriate, and shun the drunkard appropriately.  Cadets are actually very sensitive to the example the adults are setting, and most wouldn't condone getting publicly drunk at a CAP function.

[topsecret]

We need to realize that we are role models around cadets, and our actions send a message.  Drinking around cadets is not a constructive message, regardless of the letter of the regulations ("should not" instead of "shall not").

With all respect to those who view this subject differently, I believe that it's stretching to justify drinking in a cadet's presence with "we can show cadets that one can drink responsibly."

No real value is added by this practice, but value is potentially lost.  Should a situation arise which requires your intervention, your judgment is impaired -- or at least suspect. 

Trust me, those kids are also watching when you jump in the car after the function and drive home.  Even if it's been enough time that you're "legal," they're going to remember that Captain Rolemodel had a beer and drove.  Since the Captain managed it, they may just try it.

Bad idea, all the way around.

v/r
Bill Johnson, Major, CAP

[mikeylikey]

After the fact, a couple cadets said to me "dern Major Bowden, we thought you were like this pure adult that didn't do anything wrong... 

If they only knew...........hahahhahha   

[flyerthom]

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

While I unquestionably agree you I wonder if there's a tongue in cheek somewhere. Part of the RC communion sacrament is the use of wine. The communion wafer can be dipped in the wine or the cup can be shared. If the RC chaplain was using wine in the sacrament one would see the cadet being given alcohol (unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

Chaplin Don you (and the rest of us) may have just been pranked by a master.

Major Lord, are you pulling our legs?

Tags/spacing - MIKE

[Fifinella]

We had an occasional problem at our AFA Spring Break Training camp with AFA cadets drinking underage.  Every few years they'd do it, be stupid, get caught, and get kicked off the team.

When I was on the staff, we decided NO ONE could drink at training camp.  Not staff, not legal-age cadets, NO ONE.  We had no incidents during those three years.  It's easier to understand black and white than shades of gray.  One standard, equally applied to all.

Do I enjoy a drink at home, or when I'm out with adults?  Yes.  Do I drink when cadets are around?  No.

I understand MikeyLikey's point, but do not feel it is my job to teach cadets to drink responsibly through my example.  I'd rather demonstrate that adults can have a good time without alcohol, and avoid ANY potential problems.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Is this bad? 

YES

Should it be forbidden? 

YES

Is it cool as long as the cadets don't see you drink?

Oh Hell No!

[NIN]

I'll just say this, about that:

1) I am tacitly uncomfortable with "seniors drinking in front of cadets."   Now, that definition needs some clarity.  If I am at an encampment, cracking open a beer during the staff meeting where cadets are present is improper.  Inviting cadets to your barracks area where there is a drunken all-senior bash going on is inappropriate.   Having an "all squadron" staff meeting at your house and having beer for the adults is pushing it.  Even having a squadron banquet with a cash bar is, IMHO, not correct.

That having been said, I have had drinks at CAP activities where there are cadets in the area.  Example: Summer Encampment.  The club is 1/2 mile away from the barracks.  Cadets are not permitted in the vicinity of the club. Period.  (and seniors going back to their barracks need to go "straight back" and not decide "hey, why not an impromptu bed check?"  Wrong answer, dirtball.)  Or conference where there is a senior-only hospitality suite beforehand.  Again, not in front of the troops.  Not on a squadron bivouac where you're all billeted in the same GP Medium.

Worst experience of my "young senior member-ship" was at a conference in I think Kalamazoo, Michigan.  They had a "no-host" social in the sort of lobby area outside the banquet room with a cash bar.  Thinking nothing of it, I got myself a drink. Turned around and there were two of my leadership school cadets staring at me, slack jawed.  I set my drink down, untouched, and walked away from it.  That freaked me out.


2) Cadets are going to be cadets. Whether they see the seniors drinking or not.  WIWAC, my first drink was at a cadet conference in Howell, Michigan.   I never even saw a senior drink, so its not like I was emboldened or encouraged by watching my officers get sloppy.  No, I had a buddy who was an alcoholic and could buy booze.  Did the same thing 6 mo later at the wing conference in Lansing, Michigan.  Ugh.  Again, never even saw my officers drink.

But later, as a more senior cadet, I did see some of my officers with alcohol. And they were very responsible with it, never getting sloppy or anything like that.  If anything, I learned that there was such a thing as "responsible drinking" from them.

In a primarily cadet environment (encampment, NCSA, cadet conference, etc) I would avoid alcohol in front of the cadets without question. However, in a mixed environment (wing/region conferences, NB, whatever) where the intent of the event is NOT primarily cadet focused, and the drinking is "social" in nature,  I think its appropriate to have a LIMITED amount of that going on.

First senior who tries a carrier landing on the head table at the region conference dining out cuz he drank too much at the hospitality suite is going to ruin it for everybody else

BTW, claiming that its a CPPT violation is disingenuous at best.

[ELTHunter]

Cadets do learn from positive role models, which is what I hope all of us are when we are working with them.  I don't think alcohol belongs at any activity except semi-formal occasions such as Wing/Region/National Conferences.  Almost all of the cadets at these functions are going to be the older ones who probably have already been exposed to alcohol...or worse, in their daily lives away from CAP.  Many of them might also have the idea from movies and TV that a military lifestyle involves heavy drinking.  Showing them that CAP Officers are human and may drink, but do it responsibly is not such as bad thing.  Should we make them go to a banquet so they can learn this lesson, of course not.  But learning how to conduct themselves properly in situations they will see out in the real world is part of their learning to do things the right way when they get out there.

[Chaplaindon]

"BTW, claiming that its a CPPT violation is disingenuous at best."

Col Ninness,

If your quote was a response to my earlier repudiation of an anecdote wherein allegedly, a cadet was given a "social drink" (the topic of this thread) by a SM (coincidentally a chaplain), then I strongly disagree with your "disingenuous" comment.

An adult (SM) knowingly providing an intoxicant (social drink, NOT a sacrament) to an adolecent (Cadet) would be well outside the constraints of CPPT. As a former squadron commander, I'd CAPF 2b that SM (chaplain or not) in a heartbeat.

To suggest that SMs intoxicating cadets is within CPPT guidelines is potentially dangerous.

[mikeylikey]

Many of them might also have the idea from movies and TV that a military lifestyle involves heavy drinking.

....military life involves heavy drinking, why else would beer and booze be so cheap at the CLASS 6 store?  Seriously, AAFES raised cigarette prices about 2 years ago to be more in line with whatever state they are being sold in.  They should also do the same for alcohol.  It only makes drinking more appetizing if the price to do it is so low.  

I have no problem with drinking, I could even care less who saw me having a "social" drink.  The cadets these days have seen far worse than a person drinking a beer.  This to me is a moot point.  The reg says, try not to drink, it does not prohibit it.  SO.....we are all just basing our stance on our personal opinion of drinking.  Do as you wish, I will do as I wish.  ACTUALLY, I don't drink any longer.  It is far more professional to have an iced tea than a beer at social gatherings.  AND Cheaper!  Don't want to be labeled as a DRUNK, ALCHY, or boozer!

[Major Lord]

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

While I unquestionably agree you I wonder if there's a tongue in cheek somewhere. Part of the RC communion sacrament is the use of wine. The communion wafer can be dipped in the wine or the cup can be shared. If the RC chaplain was using wine in the sacrament one would see the cadet being given alcohol (unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

Chaplin Don you (and the rest of us) may have just been pranked by a master.

Major Lord, are you pulling our legs?

Tags/spacing - MIKE

I will differ to Chaplain Don's expert opinion that practicing members of the Roman Catholic Faith should be 2b'd from CAP. He is after all, a member of the clergy...Or so he claims.... Handling snakes is still okay in Alabama though, right?

Major Lord

p.s: Who are you sir, so wise in the ways of science?

[Major Lord]

(unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

By the way, Catholics don't have to drink the wine, either species, (bread or wine) or both is Catholic- Kosher....Sparking Juice is not allowed, but I know that a lot of baptists use grape juice...probably for fear of corrupting cadets.....

Major Lord

[flyerthom]

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

While I unquestionably agree you I wonder if there's a tongue in cheek somewhere. Part of the RC communion sacrament is the use of wine. The communion wafer can be dipped in the wine or the cup can be shared. If the RC chaplain was using wine in the sacrament one would see the cadet being given alcohol (unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

Chaplin Don you (and the rest of us) may have just been pranked by a master.

Major Lord, are you pulling our legs?

Tags/spacing - MIKE

I will differ to Chaplain Don's expert opinion that practicing members of the Roman Catholic Faith should be 2b'd from CAP. He is after all, a member of the clergy...Or so he claims.... Handling snakes is still okay in Alabama though, right?

Major Lord

p.s: Who are you sir, so wise in the ways of science?

Graduate of a Jesuit institution of psychological torture ah higher education. Survivor of Alter Boy and choir.

<edit - bad joke gone>

[Skyray]

We are getting a bit personal and drifting dangerously close to thread-lock.

[Major Lord]

I apologize to any snakes that may have been offended by my incorrectly linking them with Alabama... My point re; Alcohol is that its' appropriate use is entirely circumstantial. We have seen honor students expelled from school for having Midol, by religious, political, and idealogical zealots incapable of looking beyond appearances. Relying on the National organization to produce a one-size-fits-all zero tolerance policy is ludicrous. They could not see that giving tobacco products to cadets was Mala in se, or bad in itself. I need not remind you of some of the other decisions left to that body...They can hardly balance a checkbook, let alone draft a social policy that will work in every circumstance and locale.

Major Lord

[mikeylikey]

Lets move away from religion.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

I do not, and as a commander I did not permit officers to consume alcohol in any form in the presence of cadets.  But...

WIWAC, there was alcohol served at Group and Wing banquets.  Officers did consume alcohol in the presence of cadets.  CAP survived, so did us cadets.

I see NO problem with officers drinking alcohol at areas in a conference designated as "Off limits" to cadets. 

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

Now what?

[ELTHunter]

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

Now what?

Are the cadets children of the members, or just cadets hitching a ride home.  If the latter, I'd say it was inappropriate unless the Officer in question knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what the views of the cadets parents would be of the situation.  If the former, I'd say the activities over and not a problem.

[Stonewall]

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

I sort of brought this up in my initial post.

At one squadron, we met at the American Legion, a huge one.  Two stories with a bar on the ground floor.  ~~snip~~   The bad thing, I think, is when several of the seniors who had cadets in the squadron would stay, making their cadet sit in the bar watching seniors drink.

I see two [potential] problems here.

1.  I've seen this take a negative affect on cadets whose parents are in CAP before.  Where those cadets who are now at the AAR with their parent/senior member, are not just with dad, but with some other squadron members and now feel special.  They may be privy to information others aren't, get some special bonding time with the DCC or CC, or quite possibly bend the ear of a one of those other seniors and benefit from simply being in the situation their father put them in.

2.  Those cadets/offspring are now bearing witness to senior members other than their parents consuming alcohol.  Which, in and of itself is not bad, but perhaps those members had more than 2 or 3 cocktails and went "AUX OFF" lowering their guard and quite possibly showing a side of them they shouldn't.

Just something I would take into consideration.