A Song of Work and Time

[JeffDG]

Well that's the thing. There's only 5-6 required positions. Grow with the unit on the rest.

Commander
Safety (CAPR 62-1, 3(a)(1))
Supply (CAPR 174-1 1-6(j)(1))
Communications ((CAPR 174-1 1-6(j)(1))
Public Affairs (CAPR 190-1, 3(a))


Any that I'm missing?

Isn't AEO required now?

Though the nuance between "required" and "can't be the CC" is lost on smaller units, I think the only one that can't be the CC as ADY is Finance.
All the rest can just be the CC.

Safety can not be the CC

Eclipse hit safety.

IG cannot perform any other duty position while being IG...only applies to the primary, IG, not assistants.

[raivo]

One of the reasons the regulations are so complex and in some places convoluted is because of members over the years "knowing better", forcing the leadership to add more verbiage to accommodate the anticipated nonsense of people who can't jsut follow the rules and use common sense without every action being a political statement about who's in charge, or which procedures are actually "optional" in the eyes of a given "empowered" individual.

True, but I think that at a certain point, more regulation actually makes that problem worse rather than better.

[Eclipse]

One of the reasons the regulations are so complex and in some places convoluted is because of members over the years "knowing better", forcing the leadership to add more verbiage to accommodate the anticipated nonsense of people who can't jsut follow the rules and use common sense without every action being a political statement about who's in charge, or which procedures are actually "optional" in the eyes of a given "empowered" individual.

True, but I think that at a certain point, more regulation actually makes that problem worse rather than better.

Agreed.  You can't account for every bone-headed thing people will do, our members are nothing, if not "creative" in this regard.

Absent strong leadership, consistent training, and ramifications when people are negligent, "know better", "empowered" or
otherwise make up things along the way, this is the result.

[SunDog]

Sometimes I'm not sure when you're serious, and when you are not. . . are you just trying to wind me up, for the entertainment value? I'd like to be a fly on the wall when an IC whined about it: (not that ours did - he's a good guy, with common sense. He understood we were busy and he'd have to wait. And that it was my call to make).

Both, since you make them conveniently accessible.

MO's are not "co-pilots" and don't need to be on ATC for any reason - that takes them >OFF< the radio
they are assigned to be on.  A PIC negotiating a complex pattern and talking to ATC does not in any
way impact or negate the MO's need to stay in contact with mission base, assuming that is part of the
sortie profile.

This kind of nonsense is why we have constant issues with radio panels being changed around
from the preferred configurations and less experienced MOs not being able to communicate and/or
Beckers tuned to commercial radio stations.

But we digress from OP again!

Actually this is pretty much on-topic.

One of the reasons the regulations are so complex and in some places convoluted is because of
members over the years "knowing better", forcing the leadership to add more verbiage
to accommodate the anticipated nonsense of people who can't jsut follow the rules and use
common sense without every action being a political statement about who's in charge,
or which procedures are actually "optional" in the eyes of a given "empowered" individual.

Geez, you were serious. . .but goofing aside. . .

There is a lot of back and forth now, in studying management, and command and control, very centralized, vs pushing tactical decision making down to the lowest level possible. Pros and cons, both ways.  Good comms figure in big, of course. Not just the technical aspects, but the cycles required at both ends of the link.

In practical terms, I think you'll get quite a bit of the situation we bantered about here; published doctrine can't anticipate all scenarios, and frankly, the corporate culture can't enforce all that is published.  There isn't a realistic way (or need) for the central C&C to prevent occasional break in comms, such as the one described. Not in CAP air ops, anyway. I joked about it, but truly, who would try and make an issue of a pee/weather divert? Or make a issue of the crew managing the cockpit as they see fit, per the tactical situation?

Uncontrolled airspace, with little traffic, day VFR, is very diffrent than operating in a FRZ, in Class B, night & IFR.  Bewteen the extremes, the crew requires flexibility. I can't say we did (or did not) break doctrine. I can say I was sure a few minutes didn't matter, and that in my experience with CAP, it wasn't going to be an issue. And I really shouldn't have cared if my decision was an inconvenience for the IC, given the facts.  We decided to land, for our comfort and saftey. Once that call was made, the IC wasn't part of the equation for the next few minutes.  Doesn't mean he wasn't still the IC, or that he wasn't in charge of the mission. Just didn't need him in the loop for a bit. 

I think you are right, that in reacting to more egregious examples, management propagates more lines of "code" that muddy the water.  But management isn't "forced" to do so;  it's just the best response they can imagine, lame as it is.  Human condition, to want more control, and aircrew are no exception. And CAP management definitley is no exception. And it's human to perceive what the "real" rules are, and fill the power vacuum. 

[raivo]

Well, to paraphrase Syndrome from The Incredibles... "when everything's important, nothing is." I've seen this extensively in my AFSC. We were at the point where we had so many "command directives" that it was virtually impossible to comply with all of them. Some of them are pretty important (weapon safety rules), some of them are less important (25mph speed limit on gravel roads, even when the posted speed limit is 40mph), and some of them are absolutely asinine (checkboxes must be marked with an "X", not a "✓"- and if the "X" extends outside the box, you must write a Memorandum For Record documenting the deviation.)

But when you set "100% compliance with every iota of every far-fetched HHQ directive" (or, to quote a former CAP wing commander, "COMPLIANCE = MISSION READY") as the standard, you're setting yourself up for failure because people aren't drones and don't react well to micromanagement - it becomes a game of "what can I get away with cutting corners on." CAP-wise, there's a wide spectrum between "fly your airplane safely," "comply with all relevant FAA regulations," and "fly your airplane at X' AMSL at all times, never bank past 5 degrees, obtain approval from the region commander before doing Y, Z, or A." (Disclaimer: Example is probably not realistic, I haven't done anything piloting-related in years.)

Back to my original thought, then... CAP has a unique challenge in that regard because we can't really hold people accountable for "being stupid" (barring actual criminal activity) beyond terminating their membership, which makes it harder to put someone in charge of a unit and say "Here you go. Don't mess this up." Whereas in the military, you can be removed from command, reprimanded, and depending on how badly you messed up, possibly court-martialed. (Which in itself, leads to a tendency to micromanage in order to avoid that, but that's a different conversation.)

Ideally, I'd like for commanders to be put in charge, told "Don't mess this up", have a staff of people who they can tell "Here's your specific job. Don't mess it up" and trust that they can all do that well and efficiently. That's a utopian pipe dream, obviously, but I feel like we should be able to do better than trying to micromanage a group of volunteers through CAPRs.

Edit: I'm not being deliberately redundant - SunDog posted while I was writing this.

[Eclipse]

Doesn't mean he wasn't still the IC, or that he wasn't in charge of the mission. Just didn't need him in the loop for a bit. 

Well, at least your "decision" didn't cause anyone else any issues or problems.

But gad! They're still sorting that one out six weeks later - I got an email regarding Hobbs and fuel this morning. . .

Oh, yeah...but "not your problem" right?

[SunDog]

Doesn't mean he wasn't still the IC, or that he wasn't in charge of the mission. Just didn't need him in the loop for a bit. 

Well, at least your "decision" didn't cause anyone else any issues or problems.

But gad! They're still sorting that one out six weeks later - I got an email regarding Hobbs and fuel this morning. . .

Oh, yeah...but "not your problem" right?

Was my problem a wee bit, since we're on the same team . . . I did answer Q's as best I good. . .But to your point, and to answer you honestly: Correct - not my problem.  That the process is gacked, I can do nothing about, except rant a bit here. And that's grown old.

Not dissing you, sincerely.  We disagree on process and management. So be it.  It is clear you've given much to CAP, and the organization is frustrating as heck for you. But you persevere, to the greater good of CAP, I think. 

But I'm out of cycles to spend on this. So I'm gonna shut up, fly out this summer, and slip away quietly at the conclusion of hurricane season.  I hope you see changes in CAP that make sense. 

[Eclipse]

Nice try!

A conciliatory tone will gain you nothing but respect here...

[Tim Medeiros]

Well that's the thing. There's only 5-6 required positions. Grow with the unit on the rest.

Commander
Safety (CAPR 62-1, 3(a)(1))
Supply (CAPR 174-1 1-6(j)(1))
Communications ((CAPR 174-1 1-6(j)(1))
Public Affairs (CAPR 190-1, 3(a))


Any that I'm missing?

Isn't AEO required now?

Though the nuance between "required" and "can't be the CC" is lost on smaller units, I think the only one that can't be the CC as ADY is Finance.
All the rest can just be the CC.

Safety can not be the CC

Eclipse hit safety.

IG cannot perform any other duty position while being IG...only applies to the primary, IG, not assistants.

Unless of course the person who is or is looking to be an assistant IG is in a command spot.

Commanders, vice commanders, chiefs of staff or those serving in any other
command staff position will not serve as inspectors general, assistant inspectors general or
investigating officers. Command staff members may serve as inspectors on inspection teams.

[Wild Weasel]

My experience has been I am expected to spend much more time on CAP (to be a productive member) than as a a board member for other non-profits.  Weekly 2 hour meeting, finance officer duties, fundraising work, SUI prep, SarEx weekends....it's why most of my squadron's active members are retired: they have time available. 

Do I freely choose to commit the time? yes.  Will I decide at some point that my career, church & family life would be in better balance joining the board of directors of the local Literacy Council or Red Cross? likely.

It's in part a matter of how many hours a month one is willing to commit to volunteerism.  My current CAP role requires about 20 hour/month to do well.  Most non-profit boards require about 5-10 hours/month to do well. 

I could argue the time spent on a non-profit board is a much more efficient use of my time & leadership.  My CAP-time is 90% compliance work (file the form properly & timely) whereas my non-profit board member time is 90% thinking about strategy execution & efficient management. 

[Eclipse]

My experience has been I am expected to spend much more time on CAP (to be a productive member) than as a a board member for other non-profits.  Weekly 2 hour meeting, finance officer duties, fundraising work, SUI prep, SarEx weekends....it's why most of my squadron's active members are retired: they have time available. 

The problem is you're doing multiple jobs, as do most involved senior members at one time or another.

If CAP were properly manned and staffed, that list above would be 3-4 people, at least, not one.

How many jobs do you have on your non-profit board?  Also, sitting on aboard generally means strategic direction
for others to actually accomplish.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have to call BS on the 90% mark...20 hours a month, and you spend doing 18 on paperwork? Clay tablets or something?

[Wild Weasel]

Large squadron.  Check requests, weekly deposits, updating Quickbooks with cash activity, budget monitoring, grant writing (after applying for wing permission), and finance committee meeting prep time & minute taking.  It's 12-15 hours/month of documentation to keep finance SUI squared away....more at fiscal year-end, less during the year.  I could be slow.

I'm also a GTL, and nobody leaves base without a good bit of paperwork completed about team members, assignments, weather, medical contacts; ORM checklist, van inspected, radios signed in & out, debrief report.....

I'm not complaining, but CAP volunteerism in my personal experience has required a commitment to good documentation.   

[AirAux]

unless i am mistaken, I believe squadrons are dropping of fthe charts instead of growing.  Much of this has to do with frustration and the confusion of the program.  What is CAP?  If a direvative of the Air Force, isn't it about flying?  Seemed like the thing used to be Search and rescue, with cadet progam and some aerospace education.  Well, the public no longer needs training on aerospace education.  Most people know more about aviation than we teach.  Drones are soon going to be the really big thing and will replace what we do without risk to life or limb.  Do we chase drug runners, do we fly target missions for protectors of the White House. do we photo areas of hurricane damage, do we become the weatehr keepers of the climate change, do we go camping once a month to develop Scout abilities, What is it we do?  As far as wasting time, a perfect example, the WING BANKER.  You will love it, you will never have to do another finance report.  Your money will always be available to you (unless Wing doesn't agree with your Finance committee on needs for expenditure).  Now we get dinged for not doing a monthly finance report by the IG.  We are to furnish a budget, however our budget showing we have $5,000.00 in the bank and will spend a $1,000.00 this year is not acceptable.  We have to show that we will be earning $1,000.00 this year also.  The cadets are doing testing on line.  We have no idea as to what is going on with them as far as why they are failing or passing.  Our Chaplains are activated to help the Reserves, but the rest of us can't even get on base anymore.  We used to get flights in 141's, C130's, refuelers, etc.  Now we can't even get on an Air Force base for a summer encampment for the Cadets.  The future doesn't look good and the presence sorta sucketh greatly.  And yes, I am grinding out my weekly hours and spinning my wheels, but it ain't gotten better with time.   Cadet in the 60's, senior since the 70's.   

[Spaceman3750]

Half of the GTL stuff you describe is one form. The vehicle inspection can easily be completed by team members. If it takes you more than 5 minutes to do ORM paperwork either you are doing it wrong or the form sucks.

Quick books what? Not saying finance isn't a PITA, but you shouldn't have to be maintaining Quickbooks anything...

[Майор Хаткевич]

The cadets are doing testing on line.  We have no idea as to what is going on with them as far as why they are failing or passing.

Probably the same reasons as before? Lack of studying? Have you tried asking...the cadets?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

One or more people in the CP team should be able to get reports on test attempts from eServices

[Eclipse]

unless i am mistaken, I believe squadrons are dropping of fthe charts instead of growing.  Much of this has to do with frustration and the confusion of the program.  What is CAP?  If a direvative of the Air Force, isn't it about flying?  Seemed like the thing used to be Search and rescue, with cadet progam and some aerospace education.  Well, the public no longer needs training on aerospace education.  Most people know more about aviation than we teach.  Drones are soon going to be the really big thing and will replace what we do without risk to life or limb.  Do we chase drug runners, do we fly target missions for protectors of the White House. do we photo areas of hurricane damage, do we become the weatehr keepers of the climate change, do we go camping once a month to develop Scout abilities, What is it we do?  As far as wasting time, a perfect example, the WING BANKER.  You will love it, you will never have to do another finance report.  Your money will always be available to you (unless Wing doesn't agree with your Finance committee on needs for expenditure).  Now we get dinged for not doing a monthly finance report by the IG.  We are to furnish a budget, however our budget showing we have $5,000.00 in the bank and will spend a $1,000.00 this year is not acceptable.  We have to show that we will be earning $1,000.00 this year also.  The cadets are doing testing on line.  We have no idea as to what is going on with them as far as why they are failing or passing.  Our Chaplains are activated to help the Reserves, but the rest of us can't even get on base anymore.  We used to get flights in 141's, C130's, refuelers, etc.  Now we can't even get on an Air Force base for a summer encampment for the Cadets.  The future doesn't look good and the presence sorta sucketh greatly.  And yes, I am grinding out my weekly hours and spinning my wheels, but it ain't gotten better with time.   Cadet in the 60's, senior since the 70's.

There's some legit issues in here, but you're mixing some things which are necessary and you didn't do correctly, and some things which are problems.

Ie. "We have $5k and will spend $1k" ois not a "budget".

[JeffDG]

There's some legit issues in here, but you're mixing some things which are necessary and you didn't do correctly, and some things which are problems.

Ie. "We have $5k and will spend $1k" ois not a "budget".

Yeah, but the insistence on zero-based "budgetting" is also a PITA...as a non-profit, you still do a P&L, but you just call it a "Surplus" or "Deficit", not a "Profit" or "Loss".

I guess asking folks to do appropriate financials, like a separate Cash Flow and P&L might be asking too much, God forbid a Balance Sheet.

[AirAux]

Jeff, we always did a balance sheet wjen we handled the finances, but since the WING BANKER, we have different hoops to jump through and no longer have access to OUR money which we raised to spend on CAP activities and supplies as we see fit, not as Wing feels appropriate.  We don't always know if we will want to spend 250.00 next June for a Sqdn BBQ or December for a Christmas party, but now they want this all figured out in the beginning of the year.  It is just BS.  More micromanagement and I get plenty of that at my real job.  (And yes, I know it is really CAP money even though we raised it with the idea that it would be spent locally).  For those of you that think making the program more like the military is a good thing because it makes you feel like you are in the military, let me clue you in, you are not a VET until you have been in the real military and had the opportunity to have your butt on the line or been where you can see the horrors of war.  It isn't a glorious game and being a CAP Captain will never give you the credentials a RM PFC has.  Some gave all, all gave some.  That is all there is to say about that.