Senior Members in Formation?

[CAP4117]

Over the last year, our squadron has started to include senior members in opening and closing formation. It is not universally accepted - some senior members refuse to do it, while others are enthusiastic. Once, we had a visitor from another squadron who looked confused and said, "that's not what seniors do."
I'm curious to know what other squadrons do - is this a common practice? Is there a regulation on it? Thanks.

[SarDragon]

In my experience, it's entirely at the option of the individual unit. I've done it both ways. No preference either way.

[PHall]

We do it every week at my squadron. It's just accepted as something that happens every week.

[krnlpanick]

I am encouraging my squadron to do so, for a couple reasons:

1) It builds on unit morale, especially in the Cadet corps. The cadets in our squadron look up to their officers, and if we are all just standing around lolly-gagging while a senior officer is addressing the squadron or while the cadet corps are in opening and closing formation it shows a lack of interest in them and a lack of dedication to the unit.

2) Frankly, I find it extremely disrespectful when a group of SMs is not paying attention to what is going on when someone is speaking to the group. There is a reason the position is called attention.

3) We all signed up to be a force in the United States Air Force Auxiliary. While we are not the military, our organization is deeply rooted in military history and I believe that *all members* should practice military customs and courtesies as a sign of dedication and respect.

4) Did I mention dedication and respect yet?

[EMT-83]

Our seniors always stand opening formation, and usually closing as well. If someone is trying to wrap up a project, they'll skip closing.

[Stonewall]

Don't ask why this is in B&W, but BITD our seniors formed up every single meeting.  Here is a smaller formation of just 8 or 9 seniors, but we often boasted as many as 15 to 20.

I always thought it to be a positive thing and gave the squadron commander an opportunity to have everyone's attention for opening/closing announcements and recognition.

[AirDX]

I've been in units that have done it, and others that didn't. I think it's a good idea.

[Eclipse]

We do it every week at my squadron. It's just accepted as something that happens every week.

+1 - you just do it. 

Positive peer pressure will generally "encourage" seniors to step up. 
If you have some that literally refuse to do it, the CC should start with private conversations regarding attitude, and eventually consider
disciplinary action for people who believe CAP is a Democracy.

If standing in formation is too much "bother", they should consider either a different unit or a different place to expend their volunteer energy.

[NIN]

As a commander, I suggested to my deputy commander that he take charge of the senior formation (once we had enough seniors to actually stand in formation and not look utterly lame.

He demurred at my suggestion. I  looked at my XO and said "X, take charge of the seniors, will you?"  My XO, a retired ARNG Major, said "yessir!" and said "Seniors, FALL IN!"  (to which all the seniors almost universally said "do what?")

I had a new deputy commander a couple months later. His idea of a CAP squadron was more "church basement and coffee for the seniors" and not "Air Force Auxiliary"

Later, we had enough seniors at every meeting that we were giving the cadet flights a run for their money. I have to tell you, it was pretty cool to look at a squadron formation consisting of (from the commander's left to right): A senior flight, 2 or 3 cadet flights and a basic training flight.  One night we had 12 or 14 seniors in the flight, 3 flights of about 16 or 18 cadets, and 18 cadets in the basic flight.  Stretched all the way across the drill hall.

ETA: We started adding senior D&C (10-15 minutes at a clip) to the monthly senior meetings.  To include "How to get into formation, what positions to stand at during what commands, how to report out of a flight in formation, and how to be dismissed."  That was some good training there.

[A.Member]

Seniors and cadets form up in separate formations/flights (cadets actually have 2 separate flights) for opening and closing every week - as it should be.  Never thought about it any other way nor has it ever been a topic of debate/discussion.

[okeecap]

Wow seniors in formation, that sounds awesome.  At my squadron if some seniors are standing out side it means its smoke break.  I would love to see something like that happen at my squadron.

[CAP4117]

Thanks for your responses, everyone. I myself have appreciated the change. It always felt strange to be standing around in a gaggle while the cadets were in formation. I do think it adds a sense of cohesiveness to the squadron - I just hope we get to a point where everyone will participate. It's good to hear that this seems to be a relatively standard thing, at least for composite squadrons.

As a commander, I suggested to my deputy commander that he take charge of the senior formation (once we had enough seniors to actually stand in formation and not look utterly lame.

Just out of curiosity, how many is generally enough? And, where does the flight usually stand in relation to the cadets? I haven't been able to find the answer to that.

[Luis R. Ramos]

As to where the senior flight stands, that would be the CC decision.

Currently our seniors usually fall in with the Commander when the squadron CC walks to receive the report. I usually do not stand in formation nor step in with the CC. I have physical problems. Slightly herniated back, operations in both knee and bone spurs in ankles that make facing movements painful and hard to take in step. Same reason I do not go to parades anymore.

About ten years ago, I was in a squadron that during the summers met with another squadron in a NG armory. Senior members formed as a separate flight to the right side - as viewed from the formation side - of the cadet flight. In however many elements as needed to fit seniors. This year our seniors formed as a flight about two or three times, again to the right of the cadet flight.

I guess it depends on whether you have many seniors present, they should fall in as a flight. If you have two or three, they could fall in with the CC.

Flyer

[coudano]

We don't do it.

The cadets typically fall in, on time (I hope), on their own, without prompting.  The only senior member present during that maybe a leadership officer, or deputy commander, who may be doing paperwork off to the side.  On occasion there may not be a senior member in the *immediate* vicinity at all...  but there is usually/(almost always) someone "around".  The cadets fall out in the same fashion (on time --I hope).

We use formations as learning/practice tools for the leadership lab (and nothing else).  Thus the instructors of the leadership lab (cadet program senior members) are usually around and about, "instructing" (not in formation).  Those senior members who aren't doing that, don't really have any need (or desire) to be there, so they aren't.



The main exception to this is our promotion ceremony, which we hold once a month (4th Tuesday).
EVERYBODY goes to that.

Out of experience, we have learned to put up chairs for promotion ceremony, for parents and other guests to sit in.  The senior members are then leaned on pretty hard to either sit in the chairs, or stand in a row behind the chairs.  What we do not allow is ANYONE in front of the 3/9 line of the first element of the flight(s) in formation, except for the squadron commander presenting the awards, the member receiving the awards, and the narrator conducting the ceremony (ideally, a cadet officer).

The primary practical reasons for this:
1.  Keeps the background of photos clean of all sorts of nonsense
2.  Cuts down on distractions

[Walkman]

I'm in support of the idea. For a little while, our small group of SMs started to fall in with the cadets at closing. It was driven by a particularly high-speed Major who is also AD USAF. He not only bleeds AF Blue, but he's full of CAP kool-aid (which I LOVE!! I never feel prouder of my CAP service than when I'm around him. He's seriously awesome!). Unfortunately two factors have pretty much ended the practice for the moment:
1. Major Awesome is deployed to A-Stan until March.
2. DCS was in the Army decades ago for a short time and is positively against standing in formation.

Our CC is a 22 year AF vet as well. He hasn't made his opinion known (at least to me) about being for or against it. I think he defers to the DCS and lets him command his area.

At the moment, we all stand to the side of the cadet formation at closing and are quietly respectful. We just became a composite squadron recently. After being a cadet unit forever, we're still working on developing a solid SM program outside of the work we do with cadets (but that's another thread).

[A.Member]

Don't ask why this is in B&W, but BITD our seniors formed up every single meeting.  Here is a smaller formation of just 8 or 9 seniors, but we often boasted as many as 15 to 20.

I always thought it to be a positive thing and gave the squadron commander an opportunity to have everyone's attention for opening/closing announcements and recognition.

In re: to the pc you attached...covers inside?! 

Our formation (cadets formation in foreground, senior formation in background):

[Stonewall]

In re: to the pc you attached...covers inside?! 

In some cases we considered the drill floor "outdoors" under certain circumstances.  Not sure what the theory was behind it, but that's how it was.

In the Army, we always wore our covers inside during ceremonies and command inspections.  Perhaps this was an "open ranks" inspection.

[EMT-83]

The whole "indoors" and "outdoors" thing gets pretty funny sometimes when trying to explain it to new members.

Indoors/outdoors would be the drill floor, and covers are worn.

Indoors/indoors is the remaining interior space, and covers are not worn.

Outdoors/flightline is a no-cover area.

Outdoors/outdoors would be the parking lot, and covers are worn.

[Eclipse]

The whole "indoors" and "outdoors" thing gets pretty funny sometimes when trying to explain it to new members.

It gets more fun on a Navy base, where indoors may be a quarterdeck, which from this perspective is designated "outdoors"
(including the occasional steam tunnel which connects buildings, where saluting may mean smacking your hand on a pipe),
and then add to it that, at least on the RTC, most of the PO's and Chiefs live by "indoors / hat off" for consistency, even when
it's clearly a quarterdeck, etc.

There'd be times when to walk between offices you had to put your hat on.

Except for those that don't.

[Garibaldi]

It gets more fun on a Navy base, where indoors my be a quarterdeck, which from this perspective is designated "outdoors"
(including the occasional steam tunnel which connects buildings, where saluting may mean smacking your hand on a pipe),
and then add to it that, at least on the RTC, most of the PO's and Chiefs live by "indoors / hat off" for consistency, even when
it's clearly a quarterdeck, etc.

There'd be times when to walk between offices you had to put your hat on.

Except for those that don't.

Go send cadets on a quest for "overhead grease"

[coudano]

Yeh we wear hats during uniform inspection, even if it's inside.

[NIN]

<snippage>

As a commander, I suggested to my deputy commander that he take charge of the senior formation (once we had enough seniors to actually stand in formation and not look utterly lame.

Just out of curiosity, how many is generally enough? And, where does the flight usually stand in relation to the cadets? I haven't been able to find the answer to that.

The senior flight was literally the "senior" flight and thus occupies the "right of the line."   

From the commander's position in front of the unit, it was (left to right): Seniors Flight, Alpha Flight, Bravo Flight, Charlie or NCO Training Flight, Basic Flight.

Now, we did make a "Composite Squadron adjustment" and that was the Cadet First Sergeant fell the "cadet" side of the squadron in, aligned off the senior flight (we had an expansion joint in the concrete floor that we used as a baseline).  The seniors were generally at attention while the shirt got his report.  The cadet commander would get his report from the shirt, and then face about.  The senior flight commander would take x steps forward to align himself with the cadet commander (it often varied a step or two, depending on how tall the 1SG was, etc) and I'd get my report from the Deputy for Seniors or XO and the Cadet Commander (my Deputy for Cadets preferred to prowl the back of the formation looking for knee-lockers after our 2nd or 3rd "splat" cadet...). The senior flight commander could probably have stayed back at the normal flight commander distance, but it looked weird when you'd have 1 flight commander reporting to the CO and then this other guy in front of 3-4 flight commanders reporting, too.   If commands needed to be echoed, of course on the cadet side you had an "extra echelon" in there, so the cadet commander would echo the command and the senior flight commander would echo along with the cadet flight commanders.

That was a personal preference to a "way that looked mostly right and wasn't covered in the D&C manual.."  It came off smoother than it reads here.

[Private Investigator]

Don't ask why this is in B&W, but BITD our seniors formed up every single meeting.  Here is a smaller formation of just 8 or 9 seniors, but we often boasted as many as 15 to 20.

I always thought it to be a positive thing and gave the squadron commander an opportunity to have everyone's attention for opening/closing announcements and recognition.

That is also great for espirit de corps. Also all your Seniors in the same uniform, impressive too.   :clap:

[Walkman]

Also all your Seniors in the same uniform, impressive too.   :clap:

Wasn't there a time that all SMs could wear AF style uniforms, regardless of H/W? Wondering if this shot was during that time...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Nope, never was. As far as I can remember - up to 1990 at least, there have been Ht / Wt / Grooming standards.

Some seniors ignored them.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Nope, never was. As far as I can remember - up to 1990 at least, there have been Ht / Wt / Grooming standards.

Some seniors ignored them.

Up until the introduction of the blue field uniforms in the early 2000's, members could wear the camo BDUs without
grade if they did not meet height or grooming standards.

[Luis R. Ramos]

That is true about the BDU, but when the OP posted "AF style uniforms," I assumed he/she was referring to the Blues only.

Flyer

[EMT-83]

Nope, never was. As far as I can remember - up to 1990 at least, there have been Ht / Wt / Grooming standards.

Some seniors ignored them.

Up until the introduction of the blue field uniforms in the early 2000's, members could wear the camo BDUs without grade if they did not meet height or grooming standards.

As in "you're not too heavy, you're too short" to wear the AF uniform? 

[Eclipse]

Nope, never was. As far as I can remember - up to 1990 at least, there have been Ht / Wt / Grooming standards.

Some seniors ignored them.

Up until the introduction of the blue field uniforms in the early 2000's, members could wear the camo BDUs without grade if they did not meet height or grooming standards.

As in "you're not too heavy, you're too short" to wear the AF uniform? 

No one wants a bunch of you little fellers running around playing Army!

[okeecap]

I do not agree with the height and weight standards to a degree, but there is a guy in our squadron who does not meet H/W but he is not in any way fat he is a cop and quite fit but he is almost 50lbs over, now on that note there is another guy who looks pretty fat but is within h/w.  now it should be a case by case because just being more than the AF say does not mean you will make the uniform look bad.  Though I am within the standards i personally disagree with H/W for CAP and the military.  The military should be able to take all healthy candidates who want to serve the did long ago.

[RogueLeader]

I do not agree with the height and weight standards to a degree, but there is a guy in our squadron who does not meet H/W but he is not in any way fat he is a cop and quite fit but he is almost 50lbs over, now on that note there is another guy who looks pretty fat but is within h/w.  now it should be a case by case because just being more than the AF say does not mean you will make the uniform look bad. 

Most commanders don't want to be the one making that call.  It makes for less drama if a reg says it.

Enforcement is another issue.

[Eclipse]

I do not agree with the height and weight standards to a degree, but there is a guy in our squadron who does not meet H/W but he is not in any way fat he is a cop and quite fit but he is almost 50lbs over, now on that note there is another guy who looks pretty fat but is within h/w.  now it should be a case by case because just being more than the AF say does not mean you will make the uniform look bad.  Though I am within the standards i personally disagree with H/W for CAP and the military.  The military should be able to take all healthy candidates who want to serve the did long ago.

Few people 50lbs over the CAP chart are "not fat", that's a LOT of extra muscle, and he won't be able to buy USAF shirts anyway, nor
is he probably capable of lifting his arms high enough to salute.

[okeecap]

This member it was more of the BDUs that he wanted to wear.

[Stonewall]

Wasn't there a time that all SMs could wear AF style uniforms, regardless of H/W? Wondering if this shot was during that time...

Yes, and I think this was was pre-silly BBDU.  It was a good time for sure.

[Garibaldi]

Wasn't there a time that all SMs could wear AF style uniforms, regardless of H/W? Wondering if this shot was during that time...

Yes, and I think this was was pre-silly BBDU.  It was a good time for sure.

I remember seeing very obese SMs wearing the pickle suits. Then...then...the SMURF SUIT was born. Oh, the humanity. I remember when it was on trial in Florida(?) and most everyone was praying it wouldn't catch on. It did, but it died a slow, unnatural death. Slooooooowwwwwww.

[AngelWings]

Why would anyone obese stuff themselves in the picklesuit? You'd look like a green sausage running around? I am entitled to talk, I am a former big guy myself 

As for Seniors standing in formation, I could see an opportunity to have a cadet or two from the senior staff teach Seniors how to stand at formation in a composite squadron! It would be one helluva sight, that is for sure 

[Luis R. Ramos]

As to the Smurf suit...

An uncle gave me a white stocking cap. I just did not make the connection. One day I was wearing that blue suit and I put on the cap...

OhhHHHHHHHH the INhumanity!!!!!

Flyer

[Stonewall]

You can see in the pic I posted in page one, the larger guy in the picture.  He was way over max weight standards and to be quite honest, he didn't look bad in BDUs.

For our squadron, it just made sense to have SMs in formation.  We didn't do it to make cadets feel good, or show that we could do it too, we just did it.  The CC would address the whole squadron on the armory's drill floor and it would have looked like crap if the cadets were looking sharp in formation while seniors stood around in a gaggle.

To be honest, I miss it...A LOT!

ETA:  Below is a pic of my current squadron (I'm not active, nor am I in this pic).  I really miss everyone wearing the same uniform.

[Stonewall]

I found another (B&W) pic from the same time the other one was taken.  Here, the cadets are in the foreground with the seniors (more than the 1st pic on page 1) in the background.

Notice how EVERYONE, especially the cadets, are in the SAME UNI-FORM.  This, versus the uniform of my current squadron in a mix of uniforms.  The bottom pic is my old squadron too.

[Luis R. Ramos]

No, EMT.

As in with that weight, you are too short for that uniform!

I have participated in only one encampment, as what was known as TAC officer, I think there is now a different name or designation. I was talking to a co-TAC officer, there were 2 TACs per flight. This guy tells me he was a high-performing AD USAF NCO but had to get out because his commander judged he was too heavy and did not pass the exam.

He told me a story in which his unit had to take one test running as a unit. Although the commander was within the correct HT-WT standards, she was so exhausted she was almost ready to drop out. My co-TAC stated he told another NCO "you carry her I will carry her equipment" on top of his own equipment which was an M-60 machine gun. The unit finished the run, everyone with no demerits.

One night we went on a night map reading exercise. At the end, one cadet officer, he was 18 or 19 years old, drops water on my co-TAC. Both start running, the cadet to evade the TAC, the TAC to grab the cadet. The TAC was about 40, heavy-looking, but he managed to keep up with the cadet, one hair too short of the cadet.

Tell me if a 40-year-old, stocky-looking, can keep up with an 18 or 20-year-old can be considered fit or not. Either he is fit, or there is something seriously wrong with that cadet.

Flyer

[Stonewall]

He told me a story in which his unit had to take one test running as a unit. Although the commander was within the correct HT-WT standards, she was so exhausted she was almost ready to drop out. My co-TAC stated he told another NCO "you carry her I will carry her equipment" on top of his own equipment which was an M-60 machine gun. The unit finished the run, everyone with no demerits.

That was the old AF which was having more of an identity crisis than it is today.  Still, the AF, as far as height, weight, and PT standards go, is a joke.  Although I smoke the AF PT test (I got a 100% earlier this month), I still disagree with it, especially the silly waist measurement part.  I am 40 years old.  Weighed in at 195 lbs with a 35" waist; did 49 push-ups, 55 sit-ups, and ran 1 1/2 miles in 9:11.  Although I'm pleased with my performance, I still think it is a worthless test, especially the silly waist part.  I know A LOT of highly capable war fighters that actually fail the PT test solely because of their larger waist.  They can out run, shoot, ruck, and fight better than most, but because they have a bigger waist, they fail.

[AngelWings]

Stonewall, was there ever a noted purpose for the waist measurement? I know some guys who have a small waist but near pregnant girl bellies, and some in shape guys who have a big waist to accompany their massively built bodies.

[Garibaldi]

Why would anyone obese stuff themselves in the picklesuit? You'd look like a green sausage running around? I am entitled to talk, I am a former big guy myself 

As for Seniors standing in formation, I could see an opportunity to have a cadet or two from the senior staff teach Seniors how to stand at formation in a composite squadron! It would be one helluva sight, that is for sure 

Actually, I do remember a very large cadet wearing green fatigues at encampment. They had to sew THREE blue belts together to make it around his waist, as well as an additional panel or two in the shirt and pants. It was the only choice he had, apparently, aside from losing about 200 pounds, as there was no other optional uniform for him.

[AngelWings]

Why would anyone obese stuff themselves in the picklesuit? You'd look like a green sausage running around? I am entitled to talk, I am a former big guy myself 

As for Seniors standing in formation, I could see an opportunity to have a cadet or two from the senior staff teach Seniors how to stand at formation in a composite squadron! It would be one helluva sight, that is for sure 

Actually, I do remember a very large cadet wearing green fatigues at encampment. They had to sew THREE blue belts together to make it around his waist, as well as an additional panel or two in the shirt and pants. It was the only choice he had, apparently, aside from losing about 200 pounds, as there was no other optional uniform for him.

What? I hate to be mean, but wouldn't be a huge liability? I've gotten up to a pretty big size in my life before, at 5" and 240 before becoming 5"5' and 180 (maintaining because I am building muscle, which is getting noticable  ) and even I didn't need that much belt. How did he perform? I'm positive he must've been restricted from a lot of PT and standing.

[A.Member]

This, versus the uniform of my current squadron in a mix of uniforms.

I know you said you're not active there currently but do you know why do they have a mix of BDU's and Blues?  Do they publish a uniform of the day?

Also, FWIW, in our squadron, cadets without uniforms must stand in the back of the formation.  A cadet in jeans in t-shirt would never be allowed up front.

[Garibaldi]

Why would anyone obese stuff themselves in the picklesuit? You'd look like a green sausage running around? I am entitled to talk, I am a former big guy myself 

As for Seniors standing in formation, I could see an opportunity to have a cadet or two from the senior staff teach Seniors how to stand at formation in a composite squadron! It would be one helluva sight, that is for sure 

Actually, I do remember a very large cadet wearing green fatigues at encampment. They had to sew THREE blue belts together to make it around his waist, as well as an additional panel or two in the shirt and pants. It was the only choice he had, apparently, aside from losing about 200 pounds, as there was no other optional uniform for him.

What? I hate to be mean, but wouldn't be a huge liability? I've gotten up to a pretty big size in my life before, at 5" and 240 before becoming 5"5' and 180 (maintaining because I am building muscle, which is getting noticable  ) and even I didn't need that much belt. How did he perform? I'm positive he must've been restricted from a lot of PT and standing.

He wasn't in my flight but he did have issues. He made it to 2 encampments but i never saw him again and no one ever said what happened or where he was. Looked like he jumped in a pool and out again at the end of the day.

[Private Investigator]

This, versus the uniform of my current squadron in a mix of uniforms.

I know you said you're not active there currently but do you know why do they have a mix of BDU's and Blues?  Do they publish a uniform of the day?

Also, FWIW, in our squadron, cadets without uniforms must stand in the back of the formation.  A cadet in jeans in t-shirt would never be allowed up front.

My current Squadron does a uniform of the day which is ignored by some indivuals.

Same here. Cadets form up by the uniform they have. Jeans and t-shirts is always at the back.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I didn't read the whole thing, but I wanted to add my two cents... ( I don't have enough time to read it all this morning)



When I was in the Army formation was second nature having been a cadet, and it was comfortable to me. After basic trainingwhen we got to our duty unit, many thought we would stop the formation thing, and they would complain and ask why in the world we have to do this dumb mickey mouse stuff.

Our platoon sergeant tried explaining that's just what's done... And I explained it like this... Formation serves a purpose, it builds a team by keeping units together and not allowing clicks to form. It also allows for moving from one place or another while allowing for team building exercises to happen at the same time, the same goes for running pt in formation, team building and esprit de corps can be built while running in formation. It also make you more used to being around and working with the team members you don't like, face it, there are some in every team. When it comes to morning formation it allows for things I won't mention here, but morning and closing formation makes it easier to put out and gather information.

Surprisingly after I made that explanation, people started hating it a little less and started using it to their advantage. Formation is a good thing, don't shun it, try it for a few months before you throw out the idea.

[Stonewall]

This, versus the uniform of my current squadron in a mix of uniforms.

I know you said you're not active there currently but do you know why do they have a mix of BDU's and Blues?  Do they publish a uniform of the day?

Also, FWIW, in our squadron, cadets without uniforms must stand in the back of the formation.  A cadet in jeans in t-shirt would never be allowed up front.

Again, I am not active, but one of my top 3 pet peeves is people accepting the old adage of "just wear what you have". 

NO! 

T-Flight, the new cadets enrolled in the 8-week basic cadet training program wear blue jeans with a belt, plain black t-shirt, and athletic shoes or military boots.  Cadets do not graduate T-Flight (together) until they have a COMPLETE set of BDUs; name tapes and all.  And T-Flight is their own separate flight.  If there are only 2 cadets in T-Flight, so be it.

I always mandated that BDUs be the first/primary uniform because...well, that's what I decided.  Immediately following their graduation from T-Flight we worked on getting them a complete set of blues.

BDUs were worn to all but 1 meeting per month, moral leadership/AE night.  If, and only if, you were a recent T-Flight graduate, could you wear BDUs on a blues night, but 9x out of 10, they had blues within 2 months of T-Flight graduation.

AND NEVER, EVER, would I allow cadets to wear an incomplete uniform.  It's the opposite of "book them and they will come".  Instead, I said "require it, and they will make it happen".  Why?  Because people will go to high heaven, to acquire what they need to fit in.  It's like showing up to your football game and not having a jersey.  It just sucks.

[Garibaldi]

This, versus the uniform of my current squadron in a mix of uniforms.

I know you said you're not active there currently but do you know why do they have a mix of BDU's and Blues?  Do they publish a uniform of the day?

Also, FWIW, in our squadron, cadets without uniforms must stand in the back of the formation.  A cadet in jeans in t-shirt would never be allowed up front.

Again, I am not active, but one of my top 3 pet peeves is people accepting the old adage of "just wear what you have". 

NO! 

T-Flight, the new cadets enrolled in the 8-week basic cadet training program wear blue jeans with a belt, plain black t-shirt, and athletic shoes or military boots.  Cadets do not graduate T-Flight (together) until they have a COMPLETE set of BDUs; name tapes and all.  And T-Flight is their own separate flight.  If there are only 2 cadets in T-Flight, so be it.

I always mandated that BDUs be the first/primary uniform because...well, that's what I decided.  Immediately following their graduation from T-Flight we worked on getting them a complete set of blues

BDUs were worn to all but 1 meeting per month, morale leadership/AE night.  If, and only if, you were a recent T-Flight graduate, could you wear BDUs on a blues night, but 9x out of 10, they had blues within 2 months of T-Flight graduation.

AND NEVER, EVER, would I allow cadets to wear an incomplete uniform.  It's the opposite of "book them and they will come".  Instead, I said "require it, and they will make it happen".  Why?  Because people will go to high heaven, to acquire what they need to fit in.  It's like showing up to your football game and not having a jersey.  It just sucks.

I'm about to change wings and go back to my old cadet unit in Georgia. The CC told me he wants to "restore the unit to the glory of the 80's", which is when I was in, so I'm hoping that my dinosaur ideas about things might go over. Things like proper uniform wear, a T-flight, stressing the importance of proper C&C between cadets and seniors, inspections by the cadet staff, and just a general esprit de corps that I feel is generally lacking. I'm not advocating a return to the pre-CPPT days, far from it. There are lines and there are lines. But this is my heritage and I want to see that unit scream to the top of the food chain. Drill Comps, color guards, being the best drilled and best behaved cadets at wing and national activities, being the go-to unit for ES, being the cadets that other cadets look to for instruction when everyone is dumped in a big group somewhere.

Maybe that's a lofty goal, but eventually it will happen. Oh yes, it will happen. My goal is to have new cadets in proper uniform within 4 weeks of joining, which is what we used to do. We busted our butts to get everyone turned out properly, even using our own allowances to order stuff from the Bookstore.

Needless to say, I'm excited about this challenge for next year.

[Stonewall]

Where in GA again?   We may be able to link up for some joint training.

[Garibaldi]

Where in GA again?   We may be able to link up for some joint training.

DeKalb County Cadet Squadron GA-065. I'd love to do joint training when I get active again.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first squadron (composite) did it.

CADET FLIGHT, FALL IN!

SENIOR FLIGHT, FALL IN!

"Sir, Cadet Flight present and accounted for."

"Sir, Senior Flight present and accounted for."

CADET FLIGHT, FALL OUT!

SENIOR FLIGHT, FALL OUT!

Of course, this was in a unit that exclusively wore the AF-style uniform (albeit with bloody awful berry boards) and enforced uniform standards, C&C's etc.

Over six years serving with that unit I came to believe that was how it was all through CAP.

Man-oh-man, was I wrong.

[Stonewall]

Where in GA again?   We may be able to link up for some joint training.

DeKalb County Cadet Squadron GA-065. I'd love to do joint training when I get active again.

Got it.  Close to Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron...an awesome squadron!  I think it's time to start planning.

[Garibaldi]

Where in GA again?   We may be able to link up for some joint training.

DeKalb County Cadet Squadron GA-065. I'd love to do joint training when I get active again.

Got it.  Close to Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron...an awesome squadron!  I think it's time to start planning.

Sandy Springs is our rival/sister unit.

[GroundHawg]

My first squadron (composite) did it.

CADET FLIGHT, FALL IN!

SENIOR FLIGHT, FALL IN!

"Sir, Cadet Flight present and accounted for."

"Sir, Senior Flight present and accounted for."

CADET FLIGHT, FALL OUT!

SENIOR FLIGHT, FALL OUT!

Of course, this was in a unit that exclusively wore the AF-style uniform (albeit with bloody awful berry boards) and enforced uniform standards, C&C's etc.

Over six years serving with that unit I came to believe that was how it was all through CAP.

Man-oh-man, was I wrong.

This is how it is done in our squadron, I cant imagine seniors just standing around, and not being formed up...

[Eclipse]

August 2006.

Note the uniformity in the senior formation.
Members were grouped by the uniform type they wore to present a structured appearance.
(This set of photos also features USAFAUX2004 in full HGA regalia, but I won't post without his permission)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Go ahead sir.

As a side note, a future PJ in that cadet flight.

[Eclipse]

Go ahead sir.

As a side note, a future PJ in that cadet flight.

A LoadToad, too.  Lots of "future" and too much, "not around no'mo' "

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3357.msg297681#msg297681

[docbiochem33]

I have seen seniors that will fall in with the cadets and others who will not.  The few seniors who did fall in were usually in the command staff.  I usually didn't fall in because I was Admin/ Personnel and was busy from the moment I arrived.  Thankfully I had a commander that understood this and was more than happy to excuse me from meetings (It was hard to get everything people needed in just 2.5 hours a week.)

Our DCC would have all of his staff out there at first to show them an example.  I thought this was good for the cadets since it showed them that we all were active. We were so much like you would see on AD with the staff where staff was out in all formations.  Even seniors had to address each other by rank in front of cadets (something I didn't always see with CAP.)

[SARDOC]

Stonewall, was there ever a noted purpose for the waist measurement? I know some guys who have a small waist but near pregnant girl bellies, and some in shape guys who have a big waist to accompany their massively built bodies.

It's Because the Air Force wants people to look pretty in their uniforms, as has been discussed in many threads.

[PHall]

Stonewall, was there ever a noted purpose for the waist measurement? I know some guys who have a small waist but near pregnant girl bellies, and some in shape guys who have a big waist to accompany their massively built bodies.

It's Because the Air Force wants people to look pretty in their uniforms, as has been discussed in many threads.

It's called "Military Image".

[SARDOC]

It's called "Military Image".

I know...It's better to look good rather than just being good...Image.

[Garibaldi]

It's called "Military Image".

I know...It's better to look good rather than just being good...Image.

It's always betta to rook good than to feel good...and i rook mah-vel-ous...

[Eclipse]

It's called "Military Image".

I know...It's better to look good rather than just being good...Image.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but in many cases are interdependent.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Even seniors had to address each other by rank in front of cadets (something I didn't always see with CAP.)

In my first squadron, this was the case from sign-in to sign-out...whether or not cadets were around.

[umpirecali]

Back to the OP, in ou squadron, with have 5 flights; Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, and Siera.  The cadets fall in.  The senior fall in a few minutes later and it's more of a mosey than a fall in.  After that point we do the same as the cadets for the initial formation.  The DCC stands with the cadet leadership, the XO calls the squadron to attention as the Squadron commander arrives.  The seniors however do not participate in the closing formation in my squadron.

[CAP4117]

Thanks everyone! Having been in a (somewhat sparse) senior formation last night for the first time as CDS, I have a few more questions.

Does the CDS line up with the cadet commander? Does the CDC have any special position or is he in the flight with the rest of the seniors?

               S/CC
  CDS                    C/CC

   S                     C   C   C         
   S                     C   C   C
   S                     C   C   C
   S                     C   C   C

Does it look something like this? (S=senior members, C=cadets)
Thanks!

[Eclipse]

I would say that's certainly one reasonable option, though it leaves where to put the CDC, his place should be
recognized equally to the CDS.

You might also have the two CD's forward and center of the main formation, or just up and to the side of the CC.

[jimmydeanno]

Thanks everyone! Having been in a (somewhat sparse) senior formation last night for the first time as CDS, I have a few more questions.

Does the CDS line up with the cadet commander? Does the CDC have any special position or is he in the flight with the rest of the seniors?

               S/CC
  CDS                    C/CC

   S                     C   C   C         
   S                     C   C   C
   S                     C   C   C
   S                     C   C   C

Does it look something like this? (S=senior members, C=cadets)
Thanks!

You might try:

                              CDS              CDC
                                         CC

                     
              SENIOR FLT/CC                C/CC

              S     S     S      S          C    C    C    C

              S     S     S      S          C    C    C    C

Or even:


                                        CC

                     CDS                         CDC

             S    S    S    S             
                                                    C/CC

                                               C   C   C   C

[Eclipse]

I like the first one, but both are good.

[CAP4117]

I like the first one too, but I don't think we have enough seniors to have a flight/cc and CDS. Maybe I'll try the second one next week. In that one, would the C/CC still make the report to the squadron CC or would the CDC do it?

[Eclipse]

I'd say he reports to the UNit CC with the CDC observing, but again, most of this is subjective.

I suppose you could also have the C/CC report to the CDC, who would then report to the CC. 
It would give everyone a little reportifyin' and salutin' time, not to mention a few about faces.