Can't join the local unit

[Johann1827]

Hi All,

I have never posted here before - I need some advice about joining a unit.

I have been a senior member in CAP for a number of years. Recently, I moved to a new state and decided to join the local senior squadron. I went to the meeting and introduced myself. The meeting went OK and I decided that I'd like to join, so I waited around for the squadron commander to have a moment and told him I'd like to join. I'm a pilot, BTW. Now, anywhere else I've been it would just be a matter of telling him my ID number and I'd be transferred in. Not so here. He told me that I'd have to attend meetings for a few months and then I'd also have to be voted on by the membership committee. Also, he told me that most of the squadron's "work" gets decided on at the local bar after the meetings and I'd have to attend there as well. Again he told me I should hang around and let the guys get to know me and see if they'd be OK with me joining the unit.

So I went to the bar with them and they basically carried on like a bunch of drucnken sailors. I really want  to bee in CAP and this is the only unit within resaonable distance with an airplane but I get the distinct idea that I am unwelcome here perhaps because I don't drink for religious and health reasons. Like it's a closed fraternity. It just seems wrong that I can't just join the unit and participate - they never asked me anything about my CAP quailifications, or assignments or even my rank. I went away feeling rather hurt and wonder if I shouldn't be filing a complaint with the IG. Can anyone give any advice here?

THanks

"the new guy"

[Krapenhoeffer]

If they were getting drunk in a CAP uniform and/or he said that the drunkenness was a squadron sponsored activity, then there are 2b's to be had all around. Yeah, report it to that Wing's IG or CC.

In the mean time, is there another squadron that is also within your driving range?

[vmstan]

My thoughts exactly.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Yeah, they're getting drunk AND they have a USAF-owned aircraft!? I would consider dropping a line to the FAA as well. See if some of these punks gets their pilot's license revoked. 

[NC Hokie]

Sounds like you found a flying club masquerading as a CAP unit.  My suggestion would be to suck it up and look for another squadron, even if it's one that doesn't currently have an airplane.  After all, you might just be the last piece of the puzzle they're looking for to get an airplane of their own.

As far as an IG complaint goes, you have no case until they turn you down, which has not happened yet.

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, they're getting drunk AND they have a USAF-owned aircraft!? I would consider dropping a line to the FAA as well. See if some of these punks gets their pilot's license revoked. 

Don't take this to a point where it doesn't need to go.  "Getting drunk" does not mean or imply that they're flying drunk.  AF pilots go to the O-Club and have a few with their buddies.  There are rules, just because they enjoy a beverage doesn't mean they're doing anything that would bring it to that level.  Chill out and look at this a bit more professionally.

[JeffDG]

Yeah, they're getting drunk AND they have a USAF-owned aircraft!? I would consider dropping a line to the FAA as well. See if some of these punks gets their pilot's license revoked. 

Unless you have some evidence that they're flying the aircraft while intoxicated (per the FARs), then why would the FAA care?  There's no reg against drinking if you have access to an aircraft.

[MSgt Van]

Sounds like a bunch of losers spewing B.S. of the highest magnitude. If that's how they run the squadron, somebody should be terminated/demoted/stripped of office, etc.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Oh, you have a complaint. And in accordance with CAPR 35-3, habitual drunkenness is reason for termination for cause. In addition, CAPR 35-3 states:

"Also, either members or nonmembers may initiate
complaints and refer them to a member's commander. In such cases,
the commander will immediately investigate the allegations and
will initiate termination action if appropriate."

You might not be able to go to the Wing IG, but you can certainly go to the Wing/CC by authority of this regulation.

[Eclipse]

By the numbers -

1) Membership / transfer committees are getting more and more common and are fully within the authority of the commander and required by regulation.

2) Expecting members to go to a bar afterward as part of your membership is ridiculous - time for a new commander.

3) Drinking in uniform isn't specifically prohibited but in a CAP context is generally unnecessary (change your shirt, remove your insignia, etc.) and being intoxicated in uniform is 100% unacceptable. (see #2)  I don't see the connection to them having an aircraft assigned, however, unless you are insinuating they are flying while intoxicated.  One is not related to the other, don't muddy any complaints trying to make the connection.

4) Being a member of one unit does not preclude you from flying an airplane assigned at another unit.

5) The USAF does not own our airplanes.

6) I can think of a number of different ways an IG complaint could be made here, including anonymously, however I agree that until they
denied you membership, a complaint on those grounds would probably not be sustained.  At this point you really only have a complaint regarding inappropriate conduct in uniform, and I would hazard a guess these after-meetings are not a secret in the wing.

From 50K feet I would say your best bet is find elsewhere to serve and just fly the plane out of that airport - filing a complaint that sticks and results in kiboshing those "meetings" would not likely ingratiate you with those members and won't make it a pleasant for you to spend your volunteer time. 

That doesn't make it right, but people are people.

[jeders]

I'm just curious, did you go to the meeting in uniform or out?

From my 50k foot perspective it kinda sounds like the commander thought you were a prospective member wanting to join CAP, not a member wanting to transfer.

As far as the "after-meeting" in a bar. The setting isn't necessarily the most appropriate while in uniform, but many squadrons have after-meetings at restaurants and such where they get a lot more "work" done then at the meeting itself. In fact, at one squadron I was in, our staff meetings were held at Denny's.

All that said, I have to agree with Hokie, this sounds like a GOB Flying Club and it would probably be best to try and find another squadron.

[a2capt]

Even though you are a current member, you still are new to them, you are supposed to attend three meetings as a new member and the membership committee is supposed to convene.

Their methods may be a little unique, a "few months" may be a bit much. they may have their reasons.  I, too would question the bar thing, and myself, would also be bored out of my mind in the environment.

Perhaps you got the very wrong impression, and it may be hard to erase that if that turns out to be the case, but I would go back a couple more times at least and see.  I suspect however you may be more right than wrong. As for firing off complaints, timing is everything. You do that now and you'll probably forget about CAP in your local area for a while.


You say that it's the only reasonably close unit with an aircraft. If they are indeed behaving like that, that may not be the case real soon. It's conceivable that, that aircraft may be re-located if things should fall apart at the unit it's at. ;-)


Look at other units, are there a group of pilots at other units that use that aircraft?

[Major Lord]

I think that a Squadron that is potentially accepting a new member, even a transfer member, should do its due diligence. I have seen various perverts, frauds, and psychopathic  CAP members in my decade + or so with CAP, and just because someone was accepted as a member elsewhere, it does not mean that it would be prudent to accept some other SQ's problem child. The fact alone that they (the transferring member) are changing SQ's should be an area of special inquiry. Maybe they thought this member would not be a good fit because he telegraphed his moral superiority as a non-drinker. ( There is no rule against drinking in CAP or CAP uniform......Period. Join the Mormon Boy Scouts if you can't live with that) Maybe they thought he was the kind of guy who would go around them and take it outside the Squadron, or maybe they just have policies and procedures ( Which are completely within their authority) to make sure new members are a good fit for their Squadron.

Major Lord
p.s. I happen to think that Sailors, drunk our otherwise, are the salt of the earth, and have a god-given right to be drunk. You would be too if they made you wear those funny pants and the CrackerJack outfit!

[dwb]

uh, he says right in his opening post that he moved to a different state.  It's not like he's squadron-hopping just for kicks...

[Major Lord]

Yes, that is what he says. So will you let him babysit your little sister? People leave an area for two reasons: Failure in one area or success in another. The receiving Squadron has a duty to make a good decision about a new members suitability, not an obligation to accept anyone who shows up on their doorstep. I am not in any way trying to defame the original poster ( heck, we don't even really know who it is, do we?)  but a Squadron has the terrible burden of weeding out members who may be a consistent drain on their resources, or may present a danger to our cadets. In my opinion, the latter is the more important. Lets say a member leaves a State because he was arrested for a crime, and served his time without CAP becoming aware of this. Do you think that there is a mechanism within CAP that will identify this in the case of a transferring member? Its a lot easier to reject a member than it is to kick one out.

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

Oh, you have a complaint. And in accordance with CAPR 35-3, habitual drunkenness is reason for termination for cause. In addition, CAPR 35-3 states:

"Also, either members or nonmembers may initiate
complaints and refer them to a member's commander. In such cases,
the commander will immediately investigate the allegations and
will initiate termination action if appropriate."

You might not be able to go to the Wing IG, but you can certainly go to the Wing/CC by authority of this regulation.

You may want to look up the definition of habitual drunkenness.  Meeting after CAP for a couple of drinks hardly applies.

Or, you could hang around and get to know them and be a big boy or girl and tell them you dont want to go to the bar.  Or, go to the bar and order an Iced Tea.  After the CAP talk is over, and they start drinking, excuse yourself and leave.  If there are issues with them doing it in uniform, politely talk to the CC and tell them you'd feel more comfortable if members could wear a cover shirt over their uniforms or change.  If he tells you to stick it, then make your decision.  You said yourself the meeting went well, so dont be so quick to report everyone to the IG of your new Wing.  Before you go reporting people, make sure you know the connection if any, between the IG and the people you are reporting.  Being the new kid on the playground, dont talk smack until you know how everyone is related.

[FW]

Johann, you are a current member of CAP in good standing.  If you wish to be a member at a new squadron,  just have your records available for review to the commander and membership committee.  They do have the right to refuse the transfer though.   In any event, complaining to the IG would be counter productive to joining the unit.  My advice would be to do what "the Romans do", drink soda pop instead of the harder stuff and make some friends.  If that is not acceptable, join a unit without an aircraft.  As Eclipse said, you can always schedule the aircraft as, it is a wing asset; not a squadron asset.  Do what's best for your sanity and, be flexable....

[Pylon]

See if there's another unit within reasonable driving distance.

Or if there's not, approach the Group Commander with the idea of starting a new squadron.  If the one you went to it a senior squadron, you could make a good argument for starting a cadet squadron or composite unit, since you wouldn't be competing with the other unit and it would be filling a hereto unfulfilled "need" for a cadet program in the area.  Starting a new squadron is a great challenge and ultimately very rewarding.  The bonus is you can make sure it gets structured right and the right kind of volunteers are invited to the table to make it a quality unit. 

[Capflyer]

I was going to let this go, but based on some (not so uncommon) comments here in Captalk, I feel I need to clarify a few things.

First of all, I'm the Unit Commander of the unit the original poster visited and the original poster didn't really clarify everything in his post, so allow me to do that:

1. The original poster is NOT new to Captalk and posts here frequently under a different signature.

2. The bar we went to is ON THE BASE! We meet at an Air National Guard Base and went to the base All Ranks Club after the meeting. We usually do that because it's a good way to get to know each other and discuss things that might not be of interest for the whole group and prolong the meeting.

3. Nobody was drunk. It just doesn't happen since again, we meet on a base and we all have to drive home afterwards.
However, we do have a good time and jokes and laughs are common wether we drink alcohol or not.

4. Nobody was flying that night, but we did have several members who only drank soda just in case a mission came up.

5. I never told him that it's mandatory to come to the bar. I informed him that we usually go the club after the meeting and he was welcome to join us. He happily accepted.

6. I never told him he had to drink alcohol. In fact, I bought him a soda myself since he's not a member of the club and I usually do as a courtesy to visitors. If he had paid attention, he would have noticed that several members drank nothing but soda.

7. One member had a 50th b-day coming up and the squadron wanted to honor this on that particular evening. This of course made the jokes and laughs louder than normal.

8. I did tell him that he needs to attend more meetings with us before we accept a transfer. This is due to some very bad experiences we have had in the past with members who turned out to be troublemakers. We have a right to require this and we are not obligated to accept anyone we don't feel will be an asset to our squadron, our wing and CAP.

9. The original poster told me himself that he was "going to be in our state for a few months". I sure want to know more before I and our members spend time, energy and money on someone who then will just transfer somewhere else. This has been a frequent problem for us since we have an aviation college as closest neighbor. We constantly receive requests to join by students from that college. We take them in, spend time and resources training them, they graduate and leave.

10. We are a senior squadron, meaning we don't "set any bad examples" for cadets.

11. We are a flying squadron but we are NOT a GOB club. We have more than 1/3 of all MP's in our state and have more IC's and other mission base staff qualified members in our unit than any other unit in our state.  We take our mission very seriously and have always received at least an "excellent" on any SUI and Eval we have participated in while I have been a member.

12. We have several members in our unit who also are on Wing Staff. So yes, the wing knows us very well and respects us and the work we do for CAP.

13. I do know the original posters rank and qualifications since he belonged to this wing before (different unit), so I felt no need to ask him about that.

14. When the original poster left, I told him he was welcome back next meeting. I assume I can cross him off that list now.

I hope this clarifies things for you posters who start yelling "2B and IG" before you know the facts.

Respectfully..

Unit Commander (who should be 2b'd?)

[lordmonar]

If they were getting drunk in a CAP uniform and/or he said that the drunkenness was a squadron sponsored activity, then there are 2b's to be had all around. Yeah, report it to that Wing's IG or CC.

In the mean time, is there another squadron that is also within your driving range?

Being drunk in uniform is not, in and of itself, a 2b offense.