Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 01:56:06 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2013, 11:36:50 PM
What is the expectation that your unit has for a Ranger Team?

Does it already have a proficient, active Ground Team?

Yes, we are known as the SAR Devils

Cool, then what would you expect from "Ranger Training"?

I'm not sure, not my Idea, it is my Unit CC and Cadet CC Idea.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 02:14:33 AM
I'm not sure, not my Idea, it is my Unit CC and Cadet CC Idea.

You might want to ask those questions before investing a lot of time in the idea.

Bivouacs, responder training, etc., have potential value in and of themselves, but will be of little use within CAP.  There are also issues of the what's and hows of anything that is is beyond GTM or basic First Aid, and Ranger-type training wanders into HAA quickly.

Doc, I suggest that you do an advanced search on medic, by user Ned. These posts are parts of longer, older, threads that cover medical care by CAP personnel very well. The bottom line is that CAP does not provide medical care beyond basic first aid.

I haven't personally experienced the kind of behavior issues that many here have that have soured them on things like HMRS, as I've never met anyone who has been there. I would probably begin to feel the same way if I encountered it many times. However, to me, this just sounds fun!

HMRS is one of those things I'd like to do some day. I am completely aware that a majority of the things taught there are not applicable to most GT missions. It's just that I love this kind of stuff. I'll take a wilderness survival course over sitting at my desk any day. Same with land nav, water survival, wood craft, etc. If MIWG offered a "ranger" course, I'd be there, just 'cuz I'm an outdoors nut like that.

Maybe it's because I'm 41 and its mid-life crisis time and I've got a job that I don't love and all that blah, blah, blah that any opportunity for any kind of training in this arena hits me like a 5 year old in Toys R' Us. I don't care about the Ranger bling (I think the ascot's kinda' ugly myself), and honestly if I never use any of it in a real live mission I'm fine with that. I'll still have had a weekend or a week where I was out of the office, in the woods and smelling campfires. I'll have memories I wouldn't otherwise have. And maybe I'll pick up a few things to have as fun hip-pocket lessons for a meeting night. One of these days I'll be a grandpa, and I'll build memories with my grandkids doing crazy fun stuff in the woods.

I've been looking into getting First Responder or EMT-B training. Not because I think I'll use much of it in CAP, but its really interesting to me and I want to learn more. I'm motivated by it.

So to Devil Doc, take the caveats offered here about "ranger training" to heart. YES, you really can't use most of this training on CAP missions (your awesome RM experience most likely puts you so far ahead of the game in this area its ridiculous). BUT, have a blast doing it. Make memories with your squadron. Share some stories about your military experiences around the campfire and mentor some cadets. As long as everyone understand the realities of how this fits in with real-world CAP missions and keeps their attitudes of being "Elite Ranges" in check, have fun.

Who said we cant do more than Basic First-Aid? Theres is a  Good Samartan Law. Im sorry, but if someone need life saving medical help, im doing it. I dont care if i have a "Piece of Paper" that says I can or cannot. I follow the hippocratic oath, with or without being in the Military.

That being said, I dont care about the bling, im not trying to go out and be the "Elite Ranger". There is a Master Medic Training for a reason. Why do people think it dosnt fit with CAP and GTM? We are a Search and Rescue Team, all of that involves medical, etc.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 02:46:57 PM
Who said we cant do more than Basic First-Aid?

CAPR 60-3

Here's the regs on medical care:

From CAPR 60-3

Quotef. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities. The only type of medical aid that should be administered by CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering. This treatment must be executed by a person qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level. When first aid or higher medical training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings. CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any care provided is at the members own risk. Though medical supplies and equipment are not normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided.

Its a bit of a gray area. We're not billed as being EMT types. I'm sure it comes down to liability & licensing issues and the regs here are aimed at  limiting the amount of medical care we're allowed to perform for those reasons.


There's been some debate as to where to draw the line insofar as EMTs, RNs and military medics like yourself are considered. It does say "within their skill level". With the spirit of the reg being to limit the amount of aid we provide and the letter of the reg being a little vague, it's not an east answer.


As for the "Master Medic" rating. Since you are newer, you probably haven't gotten some of the background on these programs. The "ranger" courses were started by PAWG at the Hawk Mountain Ranger School. The qualifications a while back for ground team ops weren't standardized across the country, so the HMRS was a PAWG thing. Once the current ES rating system was in place, this training fell outside the national standard and is not required for any CAP mission. The program (and other like it) have been kept, mostly as NCSAs. You won't find a SQTR for Medics or Rangers. If you have a lot of time and want to see how ugly CT debates can get, do a search for "Hawk Mountain" or "HMRS". You could lose all afternoon.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 02:46:57 PM
Who said we cant do more than Basic First-Aid? Theres is a  Good Samartan Law. Im sorry, but if someone need life saving medical help, im doing it. I dont care if i have a "Piece of Paper" that says I can or cannot. I follow the hippocratic oath, with or without being in the Military.

That being said, I dont care about the bling, im not trying to go out and be the "Elite Ranger". There is a Master Medic Training for a reason. Why do people think it dosnt fit with CAP and GTM? We are a Search and Rescue Team, all of that involves medical, etc.

Good Sam laws may cover YOU, but they do not cover CAP. If you're operating as a CAP member, you need to follow CAP's rules.

As for the "Master Medic Training" the only reason it exists is some folks fail to understand CAP is NOT an EMS agency and have, for many years, disregarded CAP's rules regarding medical response. That, and it strokes some folks egos to be called "Medic". Think about this - once you get the tab and title, what on-going training/education is required to maintain the skills? Since CAP does not use medics, you aren't going to be getting experience, practice, and continuing education through CAP. Without ongoing education and practice, your skills atrophy. I let my EMT go last year because of that.

As for SAR involving medical response, the teams up here in the mountains of Colorado bring SAR trained ambulance personnel for medical treatment. There just isn't enough demand for SAR folks to get enough practice to maintain EMT qualifications. Heck, even the NIMS typing says land rescue teams do not require organic medical capabilities and third party medical personnel are fine, with SAR training of course.

Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 03:11:19 PM... Snip ... Here's the regs on medical care:Its a bit of a gray area.

Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray

+ 1 to both above.

I say it is Gray Area. Why hasnt CAP became the Medical type of SAR? I dunno. I am talking to the board of EMTs to get there take on my training according to NC HB799 is what I am talking about. So i am atleast going to become and EMT-B. My medical skills dont go lackluster, i re read my old books, and I work in the medical field now, so it helps keep me sharp.

Any EMT/Firefighter/Medic/Doctor/Nurse will tell you, if a person needs medical help, life or death, they will help them no matter the consequences.  Hippocratic Oath is a rule to live by. Yes, it may be frowned upon in a CAP Setting, but im not going to let someone die on my Watch, unless i cant help it due to injuries.

Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray

I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?

Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray

I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw    the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?

Yes.  The regs you quoted are very clear.  CAP is not a medical responder and anything beyond basic first aid is supposed to be handled by other agencies.
The first aid training we are required to have is aimed primarily at self and buddy care.  Those photos you see far too often of cadets with stethoscopes,
or comments about "medical bays" and "triage" at encampments and other activities, are situations where these participants are playing fast
and loose with the regs, to the own risk and without any proper authorization from the organization.  Those photos and situations are stuff of Wing CC nightmares.

Now, like all CAP regs, they do not trump the law, and if you are bound by "duty of care", etc., etc., then quoting a CAP reg is not going to protect you in
a civil or criminal case, but likewise neither will CAP be bound to provide you with any liability protection, etc., should you provide care beyond their authorization.

This puts many members into a precarious position - bound to provide care, but perhaps not covered by any angle of their insurance.  If you're a medical professional
on any level, ask your employer what they think about being liable for you providing care while in a CAP uniform.

My advice to these members has been to simply not put themselves in situations where this might occur, and yes, that means some of our most highly motivated
ground types might not play, and isn't completely unusual.

This is a situation that has been hotly debated for at least a decade, and NHQ does not seem interested in changing things any time soon. 

Right, wrong, or otherwise, it simply "is".  Members need to accept that and act accordingly.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2013, 04:09:30 PM

Quote from: Walkman on April 15, 2013, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: EMT-83 on April 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Um, no. It's very black and very white. No gray

I think I didn't phrase that quite correctly. I mean that the line about "within their skill level" leaves a little opening for CAP members that have advanced certs. It doesn't spell out which specific procedures you are allowed to perform. I had seen some debate about where those like EMTs draw the line at "reasonable treatment deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering". That was the gray area I was thinking of. Am I completely off base with that?

Yes.  The regs you quoted are very clear.  CAP is not a medical responder and anything beyond basic first aid is supposed to be handled by other agencies.

Now, like all CAP regs, they do not trump the law, and if you are bound by "duty of care", etc., etc., then quoting a CAP reg is not going to protect you in
a civil or criminal case, but likewise neither will CAP be bound to provide you with any liability protection, etc., should you provide care beyond their authorization.

This puts many members into a precarious position - bound to provide care, but perhaps not covered by any angle of their insurance.

My advice to these member has been to simply not put themselves in situations where this might occur, and yes, that means some of our most highly motivated
ground types might not play.

This is a situation that has been hotly debated for at least a decade, and NHQ does not seem interested in changing things any time soon. 

Right, wrong, or otherwise, it simply "is".  Members need to accept that and act accordingly.

I respect that Eclipse, looking out for the people as a Whole. I understand fully what the consequences are. I do not see why NHQ does not want to change regs or mission, i guess there is bigger fish to fry.

Cool thing about NC HB 799, it states  Licensure for individuals with military training and experience; licensure by endorsement for military spouses; temporary license.

So im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PMSo im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.

I know this is a big deal for those coming out / back from the military and as far as I'm concerned we need to make better efforts to get those in the military equivalent civilian certifications and
qualifications so their hard-won skills can be used when they get home.

Just make sure you understand that, beyond wearing the EMT badge, you won't be able to make much use of that within a CAP context.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2013, 04:27:33 PM

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PMSo im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.

I know this is a big deal for those coming out / back from the military and as far as I'm concerned we need to make better efforts to get those in the military equivalent civilian certifications and
qualifications so their hard-won skills can be used when they get home.

Just make sure you understand that, beyond wearing the EMT badge, you won't be able to make much use of that within a CAP context.

Duly noted, good sir.

Devil-

I am a teacher in NYC. Last October 2012 we had Hurricane Sandy. I reported to work at a Relocation Shelter. When I showed up I was the one with the highest preparation, AHA First Aid and CPR, and an expired EMT / Basic certification. So I was in charge of setting up the First Aid office. Very soon, we got a nurse. Matter of fact, school nurse. She gave all basic medications - aspirin, kids cough's formula, all these were over-the-counter medications - to the administrator for safe-keeping. The nurse said "lacking medical oversight, I will not have any of those as it is a legal issue."

Also I am sure you know that EMS ambulances, EMTs and Paramedics work under regional medical councils with protocols decided in advance and medical oversight. Some EMTs and Paramedics are suspended every time they do not adhere to those protocols or ignore their medical oversight.

The point I am trying to make is that CAP does not have medical oversight, lacks those mutual aid protocols. Eclipse has told you it puts the corporation at a liability. If you show up with equipment as a ground team member and the leader tells you that you cannot carry it with you, are going to argue? Because if he allows you to carry it into the field he is allowing you to treat victims. And where is the support that you would need?

Too much on this issue.

Follow Eclipse's advice.

Flyer

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:23:09 PM
I respect that Eclipse, looking out for the people as a Whole. I understand fully what the consequences are. I do not see why NHQ does not want to change regs or mission, i guess there is bigger fish to fry.

Cool thing about NC HB 799, it states  Licensure for individuals with military training and experience; licensure by endorsement for military spouses; temporary license.

So im talking to the EMT board because my training is equivalent to an EMT-B. So North Carolina can license me as long as I have the Equivalent training. I think this is a plus for Military Medics Alike.

The reason NHQ doesn't want to change the regs is there are 50+ jurisdictions for EMS (all the states, and some delegate it further down). Trying to find a common level plus provide the requisite medical oversight is a non-trivial issue. There was an effort to increase the medical services CAP offers under the auspices of the AF Surgeon General as a national medical control, but the current laws prevented it, and the Surgeon General was not very accepting of the idea.

As a Paramedic at the end of the day I do first aid and cpr and nothing else. In fact I do not even identify myself as a Paramedic (in states with multi levels of EMS service licensure you can find yourself riding in providing patient care as you were highest level on scene) when I stop on the side of the road. Most often I call 911, reassure the patient (especially if I have no gloves) , take or direct c-spine if necessary, and wait for EMS to arrive  Without the toys its LOC, A,B,C.

A good lawyer will also hang both you and CAP out to dry by arguing that the Good Samartian law does not apply because although you were not being paid for your services and you had no duty to act you chose to and received compensation through being provided federal insurance coverage on approved AF missions (That my friend is considered payment even if you do not receive it). That makes you liable for care. When CAP stands up and says Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury we have CAPR 60-3 that states we do not provide medical services and members are aware of our status, you will be without the chair when the music ends.

Bottom line is A,B,C is where lives are saved and only used when lifesaving measures are necessary. Preventitive measures and good ORM will fix a lot of first aid issues. At the end of the day, I am an ordinary citizen.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 15, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
I say it is Gray Area. Why hasnt CAP became the Medical type of SAR? I dunno. I am talking to the board of EMTs to get there take on my training according to NC HB799 is what I am talking about. So i am atleast going to become and EMT-B. My medical skills dont go lackluster, i re read my old books, and I work in the medical field now, so it helps keep me sharp.

Any EMT/Firefighter/Medic/Doctor/Nurse will tell you, if a person needs medical help, life or death, they will help them no matter the consequences.  Hippocratic Oath is a rule to live by. Yes, it may be frowned upon in a CAP Setting, but im not going to let someone die on my Watch, unless i cant help it due to injuries.