Why the dislike for the Wing patch?

[Major Carrales]

Yeah well, wings especially & NB as a whole respond to what members make a buch of noise about. If a lot of people get huffed up about some uniform change & it maintains long enough for the slow NB process to work its way around, then they'll ask AF for it.

Sorry, but I don't believe in mutiny and, well frankly, "pocket terrorism" to effect change in CAP.  There are channels to follow.  I hav elong asked you to officially submit these ideas instead of "making noise" here so some CAP BIG-WIG can read them and say... "Eureka!!!  Das is Wunderbar!!!"

If you really want to effect change, PM multiple people here ...debate your ideas with them.  Agree on a consensus, and submit the same idea in BULK.  That sends a message...what's more, and official message that can be acted upon. 

Hoping some Col will read this and make the converting leap to your side is pipedreaming, circumnaviagtes the system (if successful) and seems to create fighting that is documented for the enemies of CAP to read and stoke their fires with.

[DNall]

Excuse me? Mutiny? Terrorism? Slow down there buddy. A military commander that can put people in jail for not doin what they're told had better listen very closely to what his people want or he's going to fail in everything he does & not be a commander very long. That's even more the case when dealing with volunteers.

Lots of ideas have been submitted, and by the way you do NOT send ideas blind up your chain for approval. There's no protocal for that & it WILL be rejected probably w/o being looked at. There's a LONG preface process to selling a corporate office on sponsoring an idea, and it does NOT begin with sending it in, it ends there, & then a whole second long drawn out process beings. You should know this by now. This is networking!

No "enemy" of CAP cares anything about uniforms. Anybody that has issue with CAP is plenty capable of digging up their own dirt far more devestating than anything we've ever talked about here. The conversations you see here tend to supress that kind of thing. We talk about the same stuff any group of members would talk about around the water cooler. This is the same kind of conversations people in the real military have between each other on any range of subjects, including uiforms, & there to it's the same process of change - the unofficial is the meaningful step & it proceeds the formal official process. If you don't like the conversation, tactics, or whatever, then don't participate.

[Monty]

If you don't like the conversation, tactics, or whatever, then don't participate.

So what happens if the board has been so inundated with uniform threads and proposed changes that some of the other folks that MIGHT have been interested in other topics leave?  I may enjoy a restaurant, but if they have turned the music volume up and are playing "boom boom" rap music non-stop, I'm outta there......as would be many of my friends and associates....

[Major Carrales]

Excuse me? Mutiny? Terrorism? Slow down there buddy. A military commander that can put people in jail for not doin what they're told had better listen very closely to what his people want or he's going to fail in everything he does & not be a commander very long. That's even more the case when dealing with volunteers.

Lots of ideas have been submitted, and by the way you do NOT send ideas blind up your chain for approval. There's no protocal for that & it WILL be rejected probably w/o being looked at. There's a LONG preface process to selling a corporate office on sponsoring an idea, and it does NOT begin with sending it in, it ends there, & then a whole second long drawn out process beings. You should know this by now. This is networking!

No "enemy" of CAP cares anything about uniforms. Anybody that has issue with CAP is plenty capable of digging up their own dirt far more devestating than anything we've ever talked about here. The conversations you see here tend to supress that kind of thing. We talk about the same stuff any group of members would talk about around the water cooler. This is the same kind of conversations people in the real military have between each other on any range of subjects, including uiforms, & there to it's the same process of change - the unofficial is the meaningful step & it proceeds the formal official process. If you don't like the conversation, tactics, or whatever, then don't participate.

Have it your way...you have already called CAP leadership "retards" in another thread.  In another thread you said you would be "fine" if the USAF dismantled CAP. I just don't think your methods are ethical.

[Major Carrales]

If you don't like the conversation, tactics, or whatever, then don't participate.

That is what is screwed up in our nation today.  People don't vote for the same asinine reason. 

I have a vested interest in seeing CAP propser as what it is.  When these topics become the center of fodder for CAP's opponents and critics, I'm gonna speak up and tell you like I see it.

When people are questioning the worth of Civil Air Patrol and we pull off 9-11, Katrina & Rita, Fire Watch adn countless rescues; it does not help when there are posts ad infinitum on redesigning "wings," "patches" and other things to make us look "more like the USAF."

We are part of the USAF family...but we are not members of the USAF.  We are civilians dedicated to service and givers of our time and money.  If you want subdued rank and patches and qualify...enlist in the USAFR or Air National Guard.  If you want CAP to look like the USAFR or Air National Guard, I am sorry.  We don't need to mock our servicemen by pretending we are one with them when we are not.

We are what we are and I am proud of it.  If CAPM 39-1 says to wear subdued tapes et al I will do it.  If not, cut it out already.

We are lucky to have what we have in wearing an AF style unform at all, if it continues to be our main focus, we may lose even that.

Again, obey the manual and stop trying to make more things for us to buy!!!

[DNall]

I didn't say I'd be fine w/ AF dismantling CAP, but if that ever becomes what's best for the country & AF then it should be done.

Anybody changing a patch just to change the wording from USAF Aux to CAP & thinking that gets them free of PCA is an idiot & should have asked the AG's office,  the majority or minority consel to HASC, or the DoD legal folks. Any one of them would have told them he who has the gold makes the rules & you can't escape that cause it's convenient.

I'm not attacking anyone here, but I don't like being called mutinous or a terrorist for talking about trying to get a professional & credible appearance on our uniforms in line with expectations. There's a lot of other sections to this forum & alot of other threads. If you don't like what's being said & your only response to a discussion is to be defensive & lash out at others then maybe you should not post in that particular thread.

[SAR-EMT1]

Yeah well, wings especially & NB as a whole respond to what members make a bunch of noise about. If a lot of people get huffed up about some uniform change & it maintains long enough for the slow NB process to work its way around, then they'll ask AF for it.

Again, we've had white/blue tapes since the AF had white on blue tapes. They were never given to us as a punishment, they were just never changed cause no one ever asked for a compromise like white on OD or white on dark blue.

I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this. However ,it seems to me that the compromise that should be sought is getting Rid of the WHITE. I don't care so much for my name being in white when my uniform is black, brown, and tan. IF CAP / USAF Identification is a problem then lets go back to the OD uniform from the 60's/ 70's but with subdued tapes.  But get rid of the eye catching items on the BDUs that means: no wing patch, no full color flag, no white tapes etc.  subdued CAP or USAF Aux, subdued name, subdued wings/ gtm/ems badges.

I am not playing Air Force.
I don't care if the subdued color is maroon and OD green just not white or any other ostentious color. To me this issue - is about how our uniforms should highlight a clean, uncluttered, non- gaudy appearance. To me any bright items - color wing patches, white name tapes etc... is gaudy and unprofessional.

[Major Carrales]

I'm not attacking anyone here, but I don't like being called mutinous or a terrorist for talking about trying to get a professional & credible appearance on our uniforms in line with expectations. There's a lot of other sections to this forum & alot of other threads. If you don't like what's being said & your only response to a discussion is to be defensive & lash out at others then maybe you should not post in that particular thread.

We have a "professional & credible appearance on our uniforms in line with expectations,"  it is a myth we have otherwise.  Again, we are not the USAF.

If one wears their uniform as it should be worn it is "professional & credible" in that we are a civilain Auxiliary, of the USAF.  Not a combat unit...we don't need subdued patches or nametapes.  Its fine as it is.  Crack down on poor usage and wear of the uniform and you don't have to add/change a blasted thing.

Your desire to circumnavigate the system is mutinous.  Your desire is to get around official channels in hopes that some certain high ranking officer might see your idea and you won't have to fool with Wing Commanders, a Group Commander and a Squadron Commander is not the most "military way."  That is, actually, quite unethical.  Inciting an uprising among CAP Officers to get what you want and pressure them to do so is tantamount to terrorism and coersion.  We are not here to pressure the National Board, if you have an idea lobby up the chain and let the validity and merit of your idea ring forth true.

Thank for telling me to "shut up" in so many words... "If you don't like what's being said & your only response to a discussion is to be defensive & lash out at others then maybe you should not post in that particular thread. "  Next time just come out and say it.

By the way, I'm done here.  Let's take a break and return as friends later.

[DNall]

By the way, I'm done here.  Let's take a break and return as friends later.

Second, and no disrespect intended by the way.

[Major Carrales]

By the way, I'm done here.  Let's take a break and return as friends later.

Second, and no disrespect intended by the way.

None taken.

I'm sure that you will agree that how one handles "heated debate" is a test of character.   

[aveighter]

Really Joe?  Mocking?  I wouldn't describe those of us who wear the uniform in accordance with custom and regulation (all of them) as mocking anything or anyone.  Quite the contrary.   Pride and honor come to mind, but not mocking.  Also, I am "one with them" no pretending about it.  I am disturbed that you are not "one with them", I always thought you were.

I am well aware of "what we are" and am just as proud of it as I am of my Honorable Discharge.  While attending the various graduations, commissioning and wing presentation ceremonies of the sons of aveighter I have always done so in the appropriate uniform because I am proud who we are, who they are and that we (or most of us anyway) "are one with them.

Don't worry, I'll keep this between you and me.  The boys still think you're "one with them".

[SAR-EMT1]

If you don't like the conversation, tactics, or whatever, then don't participate.

it does not help when there are posts ad infinitum on redesigning "wings," "patches" and other things to make us look "more like the USAF."

Excuse me Major, but taking a page from my membership in the USCG-Aux. Our uniforms look EXACTLY like the USCG and they even say - USCG-AUX on the tape.
Within that spectrum I feel that having to wear a tape that says "CAP" and not USAF-AUX is a punch in the face by the Air Force.

We are part of the USAF family...but we are not members of the USAF.  We are civilians dedicated to service and givers of our time and money.  If you want subdued rank and patches and qualify...enlist in the USAFR or Air National Guard.  If you want CAP to look like the USAFR or Air National Guard, I am sorry.  We don't need to mock our servicemen by pretending we are one with them when we are not.

Again Sir, but you just contradicted yourself.
We ARE A PART OF THE USAF FAMILY Thus we are member of the USAF. We are part of the "TOTAL FORCE" - to take a phrase from my ROTC  training- AD, Guard, Reserve,Civilian AND Auxiliary.

(In fact in the class we were listed before 'civilian' and were described by the instructor as serving " in a manner parallel to the Reserve working to meet domestic missions" To ME that description says something) [ It says the Air Force WANTS us in the fold IF we can get our act together] -

The problem here is that the USAF is treating us like a stepchild because they have"
A- forgotten us (in terms of mission capability)
B- found that we are unworthy of attention
OR C- because of 'CAP INC' and some in the membership have created a buffer and even gone so far as to state " we aren't part of the Air Force" .

Well Major, we are part of the Air Force. We are the Air Force Auxiliary. Air Force is in the title. And last time I checked my ID said Air Force. We've all taken AFIADL 00013. An Air Force correspondence course. Our HQ is at an Air Force Base, not in a civilian office high rise.

We are lucky to have what we have in wearing an AF style uniform at all.

That may be Sir, but in the CG-Aux, I can earn and wear AD ribbons on my Coast Guard Uniform. I augment at AD coast Guard units and I carry a Coast Guard Identification. - Again taking a page from the Coast Guard:
The Coast Guard .mil website lists the Auxiliary. Where is CAP on AF.mil? -

While the Armed Airmen provide Strength Internationally, So we provide Aid and Assistance Domestically. Do we carry weapons? No. But neither do 99% of airmen (or any other service member I venture) on our stateside bases .


I do not mean this post to be seen as an attack Major. I mean no one any ill will, nor do I mean to give myself a poor reputation on this board.  

It just Inflames me to hear someone accuse a CAP member of "playing Air Force" when in fact, we ARE Air Force, but have just forgotten.  Are we Active duty? Guard, Reserve? no  
Do we now, and can we in the future prove of value to the USAF its mission and its strength? I believe it can and should.  
We are more akin to the Reserves then one might think.
We meet roughly as often as they, both have civilian jobs, We take AFIADL courses, as they may be called up and sent to -Stan, so we too may be called up at 3 am to get an ELT, or help with a flood or hurricane or whatever.  It is not that anyone is better or worse. We have a separate mission.  

We just need to perform up to the expected level of professionalism so that we as a whole as an Auxiliary may become worthy of that mission.

Thank you for your time, I apologize about the length

[MIKE]

Because this thread has continued to depart from the original subject, and become somewhat heated... Lock.