What is wrong with NBB headgear?

[carnold1836]

I understand dumping the whole Hawk Mountain "bling" jazz but what does everyone have against an optional piece of headgear? It is not called National Blue Beret for nothing.

Just curious, and don't anybody get their noses out of joint trying to be all pissy about why we don't need it.

[arajca]

Going to NBB gets you the following:
1. NCSA ribbon
2. NBB patch
3. blue beret
4. other sundry awards depending on what happens there.

Ask yourself why the blue beret was pulled many years ago. Not becuase of appearence - although that is what many folks bring up now against it. It was becasue far too many NBB attendees developed huge ego problems claiming they were the best, they were equal to military special forces, etc. The beret became the end-all, be-all to these members and they forgot a basic principle in CAP operations - teamwork. If you read the NBB Yahoo! group, there are many posts that admonish those who wear the beret to not develop a swelled head and to keep it in perspective.

[DNall]

In perspective, it's a freakin airshow. You do some flight line & turn off a bunch of ELTs, so what it doesn't make you special, it doesn't even make you more useful on a mission. Take away the beret & you wouldn't get enough applicants to support the activity. I also understand the looking like AF cops issue which is why not in blues but it's okay in BDUs since they got glow-in-the-dark blue tapes.

Now, I do think it looks good. I do think it's a good billboard to encourage toehr cadets to go to NCSAs, & I do feel for cadets that are awarded it & then unable to wear it, that's crap.

I personally think they should be allowed to wear it in BDUs, but someone needs to take control of that activity & reign them in on the attitude.

Now Hawk Mountain is another & yet somehwat similiar story. The crap they do is just stupid looking. As Nat CC I'd order them to stop wear of such items inside their own wing. You want cords for a state activity, okay. You want a red beret w/ dif flashes for varrious aspect, okay. You want to act stupid & think you're so good you don't need to follow orders, there's the door.

[mikeylikey]

How can you dump Hawk MTN bling and not Blue Beret.  I was always under the impression that the members who went to Hawk did just alittle more than those that went beret.  Don't forget the hawk junk was created by some of the founding members of the organization.  I agree with having the distinctive items in CAP, I DON'T agree with how some of the membership wears them, nor the arbitrary changes the Wing Commanders make to how those Distinctive articles are to be worn.

Speaking of headgear, what is the policy for a member attending activities outside of their Wing.  I see those PAWG orange awful hats everywhere, when everyone else is wearing BDU Covers.  It gives the appearance that we are not team players.  I say get rid of the policy to allow Region and Wing Commanders to make uniform decisions.  They should have to uphold 39-1, not write supplements to it. 

EXAMPLE:  PAWG had DRMO try to dump 5300 new BDU covers in various sizes, which could have provided for the entire wing membership.  Instead the Wing Commander kept the orange baseball cover saying it was tradition.  Instead of tradition, how about giving the membership a break and giving them something for free.  One BDU cover may not sound like a lot, but when the going price for a single embroidered ORANGE ball cap is $7.50, I would like the free BDU Cover!

[Pylon]

I think NBB is a great opportunity for our cadets and senior members, and I'm glad CAP can be a part of Air Venture.  I am in no way conveying a negative message about NBB nor its participants by my following opinion regarding the wearing of berets.  My opinion on berets in CAP is universal, whether it comes from NBB, Hawk Mountain, or any NCSA or other activity.

When I see someone wearing a beret in CAP, it doesn't tell me much about them.  It doesn't show me they're a better CAP ES person - there are tons of "ES gods" who don't have or wear a beret.  It doesn't let me know that they're currently qualified in a particular area.  It doesn't convey to me any useful information about this person.

It simply means they went to an activity.  Every other activity and NCSA in CAP has a patch on the BDUs and the NCSA or other ribbon on the blues to denote attendance and completion.  Why should NBB be different?

I haven't seen any good reason for beret wear in CAP, other than "it looks cool," "we earned it so we should be able to wear it!" or a variety of other hollow arguments.  It'd be the same argument if I said all IACE participants should wear maroon berets after returning to denote their elite international relations skills.

[carnold1836]

It was because far too many NBB attendees developed huge ego problems claiming they were the best, they were equal to military special forces, etc. The beret became the end-all, be-all to these members and they forgot a basic principle in CAP operations - teamwork. If you read the NBB Yahoo! group, there are many posts that admonish those who wear the beret to not develop a swelled head and to keep it in perspective.

To me pulling the beret is like putting a butterfly bandage on a severed limb, it doesn't really fix the problem. It seems that NBB alumni are part of a "cult of personality". Now don't get me wrong not all NBB alums are like that, I have a cadet that went this past summer and is very humble and actually prefers to wear his regular cover most of the time. He likes to wear his beret during special occasions but for the most part he is under standard cover.

That being said I think it is the mind set that needs to be fixed with all of the NCSA alums, since it seems they all, there are exceptions as noted above, have this "better than everybody" attitude. Possibly it is how the program is run, maybe it is the type of person that goes, but I think the mind set needs to be fixed and taking away a defining symbol of a program will not fix the issue.

And although the orange hats are defining for Hawk Mountain, get rid of the lame ascots and white pistol belts. Those do absolutely nothing for you out in the field where your training is supposedly going to be the most useful.

Wow, I think that rambled a little but I hope everyone gets my meaning.

[DNall]

I don't care if God-his-self created it. They didn't create the out of control attitude & behavior, nor did they evolve their bling in line w/ AF social norms. You can use a cord in blues or at a stretch a beret in BDUs, but not both. NBB at least sticks to that, and the attitude isn't nearly as bad. The key though is NBB grads still follow orders. I got a real Army Ranger here as an instructor. I see another hawk grad tell him he's doing it wrong & refusing to do it the way he says I'm throwing them out of the activity & they may or may not bounce on the way out the door.

Second Pylon, nice analogy w/ IACE.

[MIKE]

The activity is named for the headgear, and the NCSA patch is an 8-Ball wearing a beanie!  If they stopped issuing the beret and renamed the actvity... How many people would still go?

[Guardrail]

I don't have any problem with the NBB headgear (aka the Blue Beret).  It's authorized according to the 39-1. 

However, the St. Alban's cross that is commonly worn on the beret is not authorized.  I could not find it anywhere in the 39-1. 

[Chris Jacobs]

I don't think this issue is just NBB or hawk mountain.  I think this issue of the huge ego comes from a lot of activities.  I have even seen this problem occur after a cadet goes to encampment.  and more specifically i have seen cadets come back from the honor guard academy and think that they are the most amazing thing to have ever grazed the earth.  they tried to wear their service caps, pistol belts, and every thing else to the meetings.  Not that it doesn't look cool or that they didn't earn it, but they made them selfs stand out and the squadron was no longer uniform.  They also then discuraged a lot of cadets and became a small little clique.  I think a lot of the NCSA's have a huge ego problem and i wouldn't stop at NBB or Hawk mountain.

I went to NBB last year.  I don't even attempt to wear my beret at any meetings or on missions.  I know that the experiences that i got there were great and i am going to use the lessons i learned.  I don't think taking away the beret will solve the problem.  I think that the staff at NBB, especially the returning cadets could do a lot to fix the attitude.  The returning berets could be telling all the cadets from day one that we are there to do a mission and when you go back you should work as a team with your squadron to share your experiences.  because no matter how many hundreds of ELTs you may have turned off every one is different and a cadet or senior from NBB does have information to offer.

Taking the beret, the hawk stuff, and the other activities stuff will not fix the problem.  It is going to need to be fixed while the cadet is at the activity, and more importantly when they get back.  The senior cadet leaders need to stop the attitude thing immediately when they get back and not wait three months when the damage is done.

[DNall]

^ right agreed, but you shouldn't be encouraging or rewarding or endorsing such bad behavior with distinctive items. That just serves to perpetuate the problem. If you can reel it in & apply some discipline, then the actual activities themselves are very good.

[TankerT]

I don't have any problem with the NBB headgear (aka the Blue Beret).  It's authorized according to the 39-1. 

However, the St. Alban's cross that is commonly worn on the beret is not authorized.  I could not find it anywhere in the 39-1. 

The St. Alban's cross is authorized.  It was authorized by NHQ (through the proper process) at the August National Board meeting.  (Check the minutes.)  Once that occurred, it became legit.

(It is just that they are behind updating the 39-1)

/Not an NBB graduate.

[TDHenderson]

Taking the beret, the hawk stuff, and the other activities stuff will not fix the problem.  It is going to need to be fixed while the cadet is at the activity, and more importantly when they get back.  The senior cadet leaders need to stop the attitude thing immediately when they get back and not wait three months when the damage is done.

Agreed and well said.  But if the Adult Officer/NCO corps at these activities is doing nothing to put it in check (or if they are actually promoting the attitude) then that is also a serious issue to address.

[Eclipse]

Speaking of headgear, what is the policy for a member attending activities outside of their Wing.  I see those PAWG orange awful hats everywhere, when everyone else is wearing BDU Covers.  It gives the appearance that we are not team players.  I say get rid of the policy to allow Region and Wing Commanders to make uniform decisions.  They should have to uphold 39-1, not write supplements to it. 

Here is my OPINION:
One Wing CC's ability to authorize non-uniform items, especially stuff which would be otherwise banned ENDS at the border of that state.
In other words, PAWG can't authorize ILWG people to break regs and where their HMRSS insignia on a spot on their uniform other than what is indicated in 39-1 or addendums, etc.

With that said, I would not require a member from ANOTHER STATE to make any uniform modifications which he could incur costs or thread.
A hat, however, is a different story.  So if someone from PAWG wanted to attend Spring Encampment, they would have to come with a regular BDU cap and without the fancy belts, etc.  I wouldn't make them remove any patches they could show me authorization for.

Since ILWG has authorized orange hats for ES, that particular part is a non-issue.

Now, with that said...

While NHQ DID authorize wear of the beret for NBB & HMRSS graduates, they did not, and have not, included the rumored verbiage restricting
a local Commander from barring their wear.  So until I see that, they are still verboten around me.  Primarily because few members actually know how to wear them correctly, the break the uniform appearance of the flights, and they engender an undeserved elitist attitude.

It was interesting to me to note this weekend, that while visiting a local Guard base, the Unit CC has banned berets for anything but garrison wear.  So they aren't "universal" by any means.

[CAPOfficer]

For over twenty years, the National Blue Beret (NBB) has been a topic of discussion with our membership; almost always, negatively.

It has been asked on this form, "If they stopped issuing the beret and renamed the activity... How many people would still go?"  This is a valid question and should be responded to with all honesty.

Likewise, another member of the forum posed the following statement and question, "It [the beret] simply means they went to an activity.  Every other activity and NCSA in CAP has a patch on the BDUs and the NCSA or other ribbon on the blues to denote attendance and completion.  Why should NBB be different?"

Like these members, I believe the focus should be on these two areas; we might be able to determine both, why individuals attend, and what if any, is the need to have a special headgear for an activity which "appears" to amount to nothing more than to symbolize "I attended an activity."

[brasda91]

I'm prior service, Army, 82nd Airborne Div.  I was in ('89-'92) when it meant something be issued a beret, not like it is now where everyone gets a beret for simply joining the Army.  The beret was originally designed to show that the soldier had completed a higher level of training than the regular "joe".  I do take offense to the cadet/s that wear the beret because they are "on the ground team" and even when they are not wearing the beret correctly.  The beret symbolizes a special breed of soldier, someone highly skilled in their field (usually combat arms) and I have seen cadets that do not fall into that category.  I believe the beret should be left to be worn at NBB and when you return to your unit, you wear the BDU cap as specified in 39-1.

I've been a senior member since '93 and have yet to attend NBB, mainly due to conflicts with family vacation, amount of vacation time, cost of the encampment and distance to the encampment.  I would love to go mainly for the experience of working the elt's and all the other "missions", not to get a beret.

[carnold1836]

I want everyone to keep in mind at no time am I condoning the permanent wear of the "beanie", as it has been refereed to, in place of regulation cover for a specific uniform. What I am defending is the awarding of said head gear with the understanding that is to be worn only while attending NBB and very special occasions.

Same with any of the other NCSA geegaws that get handed out. Orange hats and asscots are fine while at HMRSS or during a HMRSS exclusive gathering (if there are such things and if they are even allowed, I don't know). But that is it, no where else.

I allowed my NBB cadet to wear his "beanie" a couple of times to show it off to the other cadets to try to get them interested in the NCSAs. He was the first to go to NBB from our squadron in a very long time and we are trying to get our cadets to be more active in these activities. When he is allowed to wear it he also comes with his regulation cover for the UOD. This way it is more of a display piece rather than a replacement and he realizes that he is no better than the other cadets because he has the beret.

[DNall]

The beret symbolizes a special breed of soldier, someone highly skilled in their field (usually combat arms)

That's what it's supposed to symbolize, not just that they went to the activity. In fact they do hold off awarding it till you've "earned" it at some point in the activity, and the flash at a still later point. And like real rangers they are supposed to come back & teach those skills to their units.

Lets talk about real rangers for second though. I think we can agree they earned it. They wear a special beret to indicate current membership in the ranger regiment. If they go to the 82nd or a leg outfit then it's back to the unit headgear. The tab indicates accomplishing extra special training, the beret inicates active membership in an extra special unit practicing those skills. Doesn't that sound like a better use of berets? NBB & HMRS, along with NESA & every wing or at least region should have a special ES academy... those are qualifying schools. You give me money for gear & training for FEMA type I combined air/grd strike teams that can go in within hours after a disaster & do the big time critical heavy lifting work, yeah maybe we can talk about active members of such a team having distinctive headgear, which promotes esprit de corps & encourages others to strive for that level. Now all I need is 60mil & we're in business.


As a matter of local policy though.... I don't like how this is run nationally, but I don't think it's fair to punish cadets for it. I encourage IN-GARRISON wear of the blue beret (not the travesty of HMRS BS & the tradition of non-compliance attitude their leadership brings with it) w/ BDUs now that it's authorzed. I would not allow it w/ blues if that were to be authorized & I do not allow it in the field. I would prefer all such activities got to a simple arched tab on one of the shoulders, pick max of two, & lets get on with life. Each of these are fine activities, but it's ashame they detract from stuff like PJOC, & the more useful range of fam courses. We should take a hard look at those things & re-examiine the overall leadership & culture to bring it all in line w/ the best interests of CAP & the AF.

[MIKE]

I want everyone to keep in mind at no time am I condoning the permanent wear of the "beanie", as it has been refereed to, in place of regulation cover for a specific uniform. What I am defending is the awarding of said head gear with the understanding that is to be worn only while attending NBB and very special occasions.

Beanie is a slang term for the beret.  See also: Brain Mitten

[floridacyclist]

Agreed and well said.  But if the Adult Officer/NCO corps at these activities is doing nothing to put it in check (or if they are actually promoting the attitude) then that is also a serious issue to address.

I saw a lot of that at the last couple of Ranger Activities that I have attended, including the last one that I myself coordinated (although I wasn't the actual one in charge of it). While it is well and good to want cadets to learn leadership by letting them lead (and make mistakes), when they have almost complete free rein they tend to think that they are too good to listen to even the Officers. I have experienced problems with this in a couple of different scenarios and only recently was able to identify enough of where it was coming from to think of how to handle it in such a way that we encourage the kids to see the adults as mentors and role models rather than objects of pity to be looked down on while still boosting them up so that they feel that these activities are worth coming to.  Let's face it, if you take away the specialness, then it's just another bivouac rather than a "special activity", and you don't travel across the country for those.

The next school we have is going to have the adult Officers completely integrated into the school as class leaders and instructors; if they're supposed to be learning how to lead such groups, they should be training and sleeping alongside them, not in their vans or on cots unless they have a medical issue. I think that too much seperation between the cadets and adults simply leads to loss of respect for the adults because it's pretty obvious to the kids that they aren't going through the same program and also becomes an open invitation to hazing and other inappropriate activities as the senior cadets begin to think that they are completely in charge. I know that this is not a cure-all, but it's one thing that I see happening here that we can approach constructively.

That said, I don't want to see the spark die completely; these kids are going to need that drive and confidence to make it in this world. There just has to be a better balance between confidence and cockiness, some of which can come through training and counseling, but often is only going to fully develop with maturity.

As for the associated bling, I have no problem with the orange hats, especially in ES situations; they actually make sense, especially for air-to-ground coordination. I still think the belts and ascottes look rather silly, and would never condone their wear outside of a Ranger activity. In a previous life, I earned my beret the other way (AF SP) and have taken a team of cadets to Sun-n-Fun (the Other Oshkosh) every year to work for the last 4 or 5 years; I'm still not too sure about what makes NBB so special, but have yet to encounter a serious attitude from any of their graduates like I have with certain Hawk Mountain Rangers nor have I met any of them that seemed to think that their beret was all that special so it hasn't really managed to pis offend me yet. I would almost expect PJOC to have the berets, but then I wasn't present when these traditions were formed.