Why is there a difference between some medal ribbons and their small ribbons?

Started by Guardrail, January 21, 2007, 01:38:26 AM

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Guardrail

I have been wondering for a long time, why the ribbons on some CAP medals do not match those of their small ribbon counterparts.  I would think that NHQ would want them to be the same, but apparently that is not the case. 

Does anyone know why? 

shorning


Guardrail

Quote from: shorning on January 21, 2007, 01:41:34 AM
As a non-member, why do you care?

Former cadet, sir.  I care because I've always wondered why some of the ribbons on medals don't match their small ribbon counterparts, and would like to find out (and help fix the problem).  

arajca

The drapes on the miniature medals are from the original designs of the ribbons. (i.e. IACE ribbonwas orignially red with white tri-bladed propellors). As time went by, it became cheaper to make the ribbons by removing the pictures from the ribbons and just having either solid colors or vertical separations.

Guardrail

Quote from: arajca on January 21, 2007, 01:53:31 AM
The drapes on the miniature medals are from the original designs of the ribbons. (i.e. IACE ribbon was orignially red with white tri-bladed propellors). As time went by, it became cheaper to make the ribbons by removing the pictures from the ribbons and just having either solid colors or vertical separations.

Yes sir, but like with the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue and Unit Citation medals, more than just the pictures on the ribbons are removed.  The drapes of each of these medals all differ from their ribbon counterparts in that the vertical stripes are different. 

It can't be that expensive to reproduce stripes on ribbons.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 02:11:11 AMYes sir, but like with the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue and Unit Citation medals, more than just the pictures on the ribbons are removed.  The drapes of each of these medals all differ from their ribbon counterparts in that the vertical stripes are different. 

It can't be that expensive to reproduce stripes on ribbons.

See my response to your similar post on CadetStuff: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=7382

For those not inclined to follow the link, the number of stars also denoted the cadet phase the milestone represented.

Mitchell - Phase II - two stars
Spaatz - Phase IV - four stars (There was no Eaker Award back then.)

Since Amelia Earhart was a silly-villian, the ribbon back then was a stylized red, white and blue shield with a red, white and blue horizontal stripe. The mess dress ribbon drape was - and still is - a veritable barber pole.

When the cadet ribbons lost their pictures in 1984, the milestone ribbons lost their stars for stripes. Two for the Mitchell, three for the Earhart and four for the Spaatz. Again, Eaker wasn't around back then.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

NIN

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 01:45:03 AM
Former cadet, sir.  I care because I've always wondered why some of the ribbons on medals don't match their small ribbon counterparts, and would like to find out (and help fix the problem).   

Semantics. 

I'm a former Cub Scout, you don't see me searching for ways to improve or alter Webelo insignia, do you?

From where I sit, you don't have a dog in this hunt.  So why are you all fired up about it?

I smell another TexasBEAST in the making.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

shorning

Yup.  And I'm a former high school student.  Doesn't mean I'm making plans for the prom. ::)

And help fix the "problem"?  What "problem"?  What's broken?  Just because it doesn't make sense to you, does mean it's a problem.

Quote from: NIN on January 21, 2007, 03:29:34 AM
I smell another TexasBEAST in the making.

I smell another Smitty in the making... ::)

Guardrail

I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ either doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons, or it is economically disadvantageous.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

mikeylikey

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

Actually, they can make them whatever they wanted them to be, and Vanguard would spit them out to the membership.  The membership would then "pay" for the change, not NHQ.



What's up monkeys?

Guardrail

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 21, 2007, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

Actually, they can make them whatever they wanted them to be, and Vanguard would spit them out to the membership.  The membership would then "pay" for the change, not NHQ.

I wonder if that would ever happen?  It sounds like there's no economic disadvantage to having the membership pay for the change. 

shorning

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
National HQ either doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons, or it is economically disadvantageous.

Could it possibly be that they haven't changed the ribbons for another reason?  Come on, you're far to old to be that linear of a thinker.

Hawk200

Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:48:22 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 21, 2007, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
I guess I said that wrong.  Lt Col Horning is right: it's not a problem.  It's just an economic issue.  National HQ doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons.

I came with a question, and found an answer.  Thanks to all who helped me find it.

Actually, they can make them whatever they wanted them to be, and Vanguard would spit them out to the membership.  The membership would then "pay" for the change, not NHQ.

I wonder if that would ever happen?  It sounds like there's no economic disadvantage to having the membership pay for the change. 

There is an economic disadvantage to the membership paying for it. Many might not want to, plus if processed through National, National would have to foot the bill initially.

Second, why do we need to redesign back to the originals? Many people didn't like some of the older style ribbons and medals, considering them "cartoonish". Why try to reinstate something that was done away with that the membership didn't care for in the first place?

I imagine that you probably wouldn't go taking spoons of castor oil just for old times sake, would you?

Besides, medals for the mess dress aren't really all that spectacular. For seniors, there is a medal version of every single senior ribbon authorized for wear. If a senior has ten ribbons, then said senior would have ten medals for wear on the mess dress. Doesn't that seem a little like unnecessary extravagance?

Guardrail

Quote from: shorning on January 21, 2007, 04:55:39 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 21, 2007, 04:35:14 AM
National HQ either doesn't have the funds to change the drapes on the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Search & Rescue, Unit Citation, and IACE medals to match those on the ribbons, or it is economically disadvantageous.

Could it possibly be that they haven't changed the ribbons for another reason?  Come on, you're far to old to be that linear of a thinker.

Could it be tradition, sir?

Guardrail

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 05:00:52 AMThere is an economic disadvantage to the membership paying for it. Many might not want to, plus if processed through National, National would have to foot the bill initially.

Oh, okay.  Now I see how it works.  I learn something new every day.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 05:00:52 AMSecond, why do we need to redesign back to the originals? Many people didn't like some of the older style ribbons and medals, considering them "cartoonish". Why try to reinstate something that was done away with that the membership didn't care for in the first place?

I imagine that you probably wouldn't go taking spoons of castor oil just for old times sake, would you?

Actually, I'd like to see the ribbons match the drapes of their corresponding medals.  I don't want the pictures back on the ribbons, as I too think they are cartoonish.

So for the Mitchell Ribbon, 2 vertical white stripes at each end of the ribbon; for Earhart, red & blue vertical stripes all down the ribbon; for Spaatz/SAR/and Unit Citation Medals, 1 vertical white stripe at each end of the ribbon.

I figure it would be cheaper to replace the ribbons than replace the drapes for the medals.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 05:00:52 AMBesides, medals for the mess dress aren't really all that spectacular. For seniors, there is a medal version of every single senior ribbon authorized for wear. If a senior has ten ribbons, then said senior would have ten medals for wear on the mess dress. Doesn't that seem a little like unnecessary extravagance?

Yes it does, Hawk200.  Especially for things like the encampment ribbon and senior recruiter ribbon. 

ColonelJack

To diverge into a similar-but-not-the-same-thing topic ...

Why do the ribbons not have full-sized medals?  I know we'd never wear them -- the AF doesn't wear full-sized on anything, as far as I know (but hey, I was AD 30 years ago and things have changed), but they'd be nice for your shadow box.

Anyone else ever wonder why officers (and the top cadet awards) don't come with full-sized medals, at least made available for purchase?

(Note:  I realize that SMV, BMV, and Distinguished Service do have full-sized versions for presentation purposes.)

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

arajca


James Shaw

We only have 3 full sized medals mainly because of the costs and "prestige" associated with them and as stated earlier for "presentation purposes". The SMV, BMV, and Distinguished are the only ones currently that have to be approved by a majority vote of the National Board members. These are the ones that by regs are the hardest to attain or earn. In many cases the SMV, BMV or Dist may not be awarded for a couple of years after, because of the Nomination and possibly approval of the award. If you look at the new National Commanders Unit Commendation it is actually the same ribbon as the US Navy Expeditionary Medal (Est 1936). This design was chosen by the Nat Commander. The other decorations or awards were modified to appear fairly close to the original but be economical at the same time. As with the Unit Commendation ribbon you have a solid green ribbon (originally a JR ROTC ribbon) and the mini medal has the white stripes. Also taken into consideration is the number awarded of the SMV, BMV or Dist, as compared to the Exceptional, Meritorious or Commanders Commendation. The top three may have a few a year for the MV or about 5-10 for the Dist. The Exceptional (about 50) Mer (about 100) and Comm (about 1000). The design process, the approval process (more than a dozen exploratory awards are turned down each year) initial production cost for the dies for the medals, ribbon manufacturing, and the anticipated number of recipients are all considered. Even when members af the Historical Group are asked to submit possible designs for awards those have allready gone through the "exploratory committe" approval phase and reach possible designers. We also have to consider the number of the awards given and the costs associted with the certificates and mailing.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

lordmonar

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 21, 2007, 02:17:55 PM
Why do the ribbons not have full-sized medals?  I know we'd never wear them -- the AF doesn't wear full-sized on anything, as far as I know (but hey, I was AD 30 years ago and things have changed), but they'd be nice for your shadow box.

Some ultra formal uniforms like the honor guard do wear full size medals...but you are right the rank and file never get a chance to wear full size medals.

Why do we still have them.....tradition.  Congress authorised the medals for wear...when you stand up and they read the citation...that is your medal.  The ribbon and mini-medal are just represntations of the real medal you have in the shadow box.

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 21, 2007, 02:17:55 PMAnyone else ever wonder why officers (and the top cadet awards) don't come with full-sized medals, at least made available for purchase?

(Note:  I realize that SMV, BMV, and Distinguished Service do have full-sized versions for presentation purposes.)

It is simply costs.  We don't have enough demand for them which would make them cost abour $15-$20 each.  We can't get cadets and units to buy two rank insignia because it is too expensive (from another thread) that we ask someone to buy a medal that a cadet could never wear after the presntation ceremony.


(or worse...have you ever seen the JROTC guys got to party? with both ribbons, and medal and all their competion medals? I was a judge at the Far East Cadet Comition....gods it was scarry.  Cords on both shoulders.  2-3 cords on the the same shoulder.  Medals and ribbons on the service coat, "olympic medals" from the previous year's cadet competition.  If we gave a CAP cadet a medal...you know he is going to find some place to wear it.  Like the next cadet ball!)

I have got to say...as far as I am concerned CAP does a much better job of uniform policies than any of the JROTCs.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ColonelJack

Thank you for your answers, gang.  I guess what I am suggesting is that they be made available for those officers who want them, just as the miniature medals are.  An officer who wants a full shadow box won't mind paying the $15 to $20 each full-size medal would cost, and those who don't -- or who think such bling is silly -- wouldn't have to do so.

The ribbon drape already exists, as do the medal faces (miniature dies, to be sure, but they can be cut in full-size as well).  There's no need to re-design the drape or the medal itself, as those designs are already there.  (They may suck as medal designs, but they're there.)

I've often thought of trying to get hold of enough ribbon to make drapes for each of my CAP awards, and the proper size and shape blank medallions, and have my own set created.  If I do, I'll let you all see what it looks like.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia