CAP Award Ribbons Seen Elsewhere

[Guardrail]

I've noticed something interesting – CAP award ribbons seen elsewhere as ribbons of awards for the State Defense Forces/State Guard Association/National Guard.  Here they are:

South Carolina State Guard Longevity Service Medal = CAP Disaster Relief Ribbon

South Carolina Good Conduct Ribbon = CAP National Cadet Competition Ribbon

California State Military Reserve Emergency Training Ribbon = CAP Cadet Recruiter Ribbon

Alabama SDF SGT Dixie Club-B Ribbon = CAP Search & Rescue Participation Ribbon

Indiana Guard Reserve Community Service Ribbon = CAP Arnold Achievement Ribbon

Ohio Military Reserve Search and Rescue Ribbon = CAP Unit Citation Ribbon

State Guard Association Service Award = CAP Bronze Medal of Valor

New York National Guard Exercise Support Ribbon = CAP Cadet Advisory Council Ribbon

Hawaii National Guard Operation Kokua Ribbon = CAP Encampment Ribbon

Missouri National Guard Recruiting and Retention Ribbon = CAP Senior Recruiter Ribbon

Montana National Guard Volunteer Campaign Medal = CAP IACE Ribbon

Sources:

http://www.scsg.org/awards.htm

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/casmr/awards.htm

http://al-sdf.org/Index.html

http://mdisdf.org/ribbons.htm

http://ohmr.ohio.gov/docs/awards.htm

http://www.sgaus.org/AwardsNEW.htm

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/dmna/awards/index.html

http://www.armyawards.com/arng/hi/hiawards.shtml

http://www.armyawards.com/arng/mo/moawards.shtml

http://www.armyawards.com/arng/mt/mtawards.shtml

[Major Carrales]

Someone call Vanguard and CAPNHQ...

Improper uses of CAP items!!!!!!!!!! 

[RiverAux]

Are you sure CAP didn't steal the ribbon from them in the first place? 

Besides, just how many different color combinations can you put on one of these ribbons?  Wouldn't be surprising to me if someone independently chose a design already in use.

[lordmonar]

Where exactly is the natioal/international registration of military type awards board (NIRMTAB)?

CAP does not have a monopoly on the colorful ribbons.  Heck go see paradestore.com and they have a whole laundry list of stock ribbons for anyone to make their own ribbon racks.

Back in the day...Starfleet Marines (a trekie geek group) used to use CAP ribbons and told their people to order them from CAPMART.  Evidently CAP asked them to stop.

[Guardrail]

Now I have to ask...

What if you have a senior member who is also a member of the Missouri National Guard and has rated both the CAP Senior Recruiter Ribbon and the Missouri National Guard Recruiting and Retention Ribbon?  Both ribbons look the same.

Same deal with a senior member has rated the IACE ribbon who is also in the Montana National Guard and has rated the Montana National Guard Volunteer Campaign Medal.  Both ribbons look exactly the same.   

That's the dilemma.   

[lordmonar]

Guard ribbons are not authorized for wear on CAP uniforms and CAP ribbons are not authorized for wear on guard uniforms.

So where is the dilemma?

[DNall]

Evidently CAP asked them to stop.

Good.

The one that I don't like is:

CAP SaR ribbon


AF Presidential Unit Citation

Yeah I see the frame, but it looks wierd.

[Guardrail]

Guard ribbons are not authorized for wear on CAP uniforms and CAP ribbons are not authorized for wear on guard uniforms.

So where is the dilemma?

Then apparently the picture I saw of a CAP Lt Col wearing his guard ribbons was of an officer out of uniform regulations.  It is somewhere in one of the posts on this site.

It is interesting that guard ribbons are authorized on AF service/service dress uniforms by guardsmen on Title 10 (traditional guard) status, but they are not authorized on AF uniforms worn by CAP members with distinctive CAP insignia.   So those senior members who are also guardsmen and have rated guard medals/ribbons cannot wear them on an AF uniform with CAP insignia.  Very interesting.

[DNall]

I think the post you saw was probably of a Wg CC wearing unauth state awards, & posted to point that out. The same post would tell you that guardsmen are NOT allowed to wear state awards on extended (I think it was 60 or 90 days, something like that) federal active duty (title 10). 

[Guardrail]

I think the post you saw was probably of a Wg CC wearing unauth state awards, & posted to point that out. The same post would tell you that guardsmen are NOT allowed to wear state awards on extended (I think it was 60 or 90 days, something like that) federal active duty (title 10). 

I know that guardsmen are not allowed to wear state guard awards/decorations on federal EAD, sir.  Just making the point that CAP does not allow any guard decorations on the AF service/service dress uniforms for CAP.  By the way, I thought Title 32 was EAD?

[JohnKachenmeister]

But...

SDF's are allowed to wear state ribbons and they are also permitted to wear CAP awards.

[DNall]

federal is 10, state is 32. Guard has a dif uniform board process. They have state level uniform boards that approve wear of state awards. It's effectively the same thing as your Wg CC allowing cadets to wear certain cords, but not out of state. Same thing with the guard. It's fine on state duty, and AF recognizes it's a massive pain to change your rack, so they give you a grace period & don't force you to fix it to AF standards unless you're going to be around for a good while. It's not that big a deal.

SDF's are allowed to wear state ribbons and they are also permitted to wear CAP awards.

Never heard of them wearing CAP awards. I wouldn't mind CAP authorizing the MEMS badge. That looks like a pretty good program & good way to help build relations too.

[Guardrail]

But...

SDF's are allowed to wear state ribbons and they are also permitted to wear CAP awards.

Well sir, since CAP seems to be more akin to the SDF's than anything else, why can't CAP members wear SDF/State Guard ribbons and awards?  I can't figure this out.

Also, Florida SDF's may be able to wear CAP ribbons, but I'm not sure if that's the case for all SDF's.  One thing I know is that the New Mexico Wing is within the department of the New Mexico State Guard (SDF).  Source: www.nmsg-mil.us. 

[DNall]

U sure about that? U sure it's not CAP's MOU & state support is under the New Mexico dept of military affairs & overseen by TAG, who also commands ARNG, ANG, & SDF? Cause that's a more normal format. It think that's the case in four or five states.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Where exactly is the natioal/international registration of military type awards board (NIRMTAB)?

CAP does not have a monopoly on the colorful ribbons.  Heck go see paradestore.com and they have a whole laundry list of stock ribbons for anyone to make their own ribbon racks.

Back in the day...Starfleet Marines (a trekie geek group) used to use CAP ribbons and told their people to order them from CAPMART.  Evidently CAP asked them to stop.

CAPMART/Bookstore was selling 'em to that group for a number of years before someone dropped NHQ a line in re: the use of ribbons for costume items.

[JohnKachenmeister]

But...

SDF's are allowed to wear state ribbons and they are also permitted to wear CAP awards.

Well sir, since CAP seems to be more akin to the SDF's than anything else, why can't CAP members wear SDF/State Guard ribbons and awards?  I can't figure this out.

Also, Florida SDF's may be able to wear CAP ribbons, but I'm not sure if that's the case for all SDF's.  One thing I know is that the New Mexico Wing is within the department of the New Mexico State Guard (SDF).  Source: www.nmsg-mil.us. 

Florida doesn't have an SDF.  I served in Ohio's for a few years, and you could wear CAP ribbons and badges there.  The regs of the SDF's vary from state to state, but most take the model regulations from the State Guard Assn. of the US.

CAP is a federal organization under the USAF.  The USAF does not permit the wear of state awards on federal duty, but makes an exception for duty less than 60 days.  They didn't use to.  I remember the days have having a "State" and "Federal" ribbon rack.

[Guardrail]

CAP is a federal organization under the USAF.  The USAF does not permit the wear of state awards on federal duty, but makes an exception for duty less than 60 days.  They didn't use to.  I remember the days have having a "State" and "Federal" ribbon rack.

But sir, isin't CAP a federal organization (AF Auxiliary) when put on Title 10 status, and not the AF Auxiliary when put on Title 32 status?

[Guardrail]

U sure about that? U sure it's not CAP's MOU & state support is under the New Mexico dept of military affairs & overseen by TAG, who also commands ARNG, ANG, & SDF? Cause that's a more normal format. It think that's the case in four or five states.

I'm pretty sure, sir.  The website of the New Mexico State Guard (http://nmsg-mil.tripod.com/) states:

"The New Mexico State Guard is one of four military components of the Department of Military Affairs of the State of New Mexico.  The other three military components are the 111th M.E. Brigade (formerly known as the 111th Air Defense Artillery Brigade), the Army National Guard, and, the Air National Guard.

The New Mexico Wing of the Civil Air Patrol, an Auxillary of the United States Air Force, is also a division of the Department."

[SarDragon]

[DNall]

No, Actually CAP is always federal. Just that the govt can only be sued for what you do while under their orders. Just because you're not on a mission for them doesn't mean you're free from their rules or become an asset of the state. When we do state missions we are on loan from the feds & there is govt to govt coordination that happens before we start burning thier gas.

U sure about that? U sure it's not CAP's MOU & state support is under the New Mexico dept of military affairs & overseen by TAG, who also commands ARNG, ANG, & SDF? Cause that's a more normal format. It think that's the case in four or five states.

I'm pretty sure, sir.  The website of the New Mexico State Guard (http://nmsg-mil.tripod.com/) states:

"The New Mexico State Guard is one of four military components of the Department of Military Affairs of the State of New Mexico.  The other three military components are the 111th M.E. Brigade (formerly known as the 111th Air Defense Artillery Brigade), the Army National Guard, and, the Air National Guard.

The New Mexico Wing of the Civil Air Patrol, an Auxillary of the United States Air Force, is also a division of the Department."

Right a division of teh Dept of Military Affairs, not a sub-unit under the SDF. Hey I might be wrong abou tthis, but I don't think so, and if I am then they got it wrong on the National Guard Bureau website (check the TAG bio).

[JohnKachenmeister]

CAP is a federal organization under the USAF.  The USAF does not permit the wear of state awards on federal duty, but makes an exception for duty less than 60 days.  They didn't use to.  I remember the days have having a "State" and "Federal" ribbon rack.

But sir, isin't CAP a federal organization (AF Auxiliary) when put on Title 10 status, and not the AF Auxiliary when put on Title 32 status?

Yes, but our uniform regs have to be approved by the USAF.  We have discussed moving CAP's AF command affiliation from Air University to the Air National Guard.  IF (big if) that happes, then we will probably fall under Air Guard regulations, which will allow you to wear state ribbons.

Of course, by the time that actually happens, if it does, you will be authorized 164 ribbons from the CAP, and will not have room for any state awards.

[RiverAux]

SDF's are allowed to wear state ribbons and they are also permitted to wear CAP awards.

This will depend greatly on the state.  I spend a lot of time on an SDF board and it seems that it is very rare for any to allow CAP awards to be worn on their uniforms. 

But sir, isin't CAP a federal organization (AF Auxiliary) when put on Title 10 status, and not the AF Auxiliary when put on Title 32 status?

Another example of why we should not be using Title 10/36 terminology when describing CAP missions --- people don't know the difference between the Title that applies to National Guard and the small part of Title 36 which applies to CAP. 

[afgeo4]

It's not an issue of service, it's an issue of federalized system of government.  Federal government supercedes the powers of the states. For example... the FBI is within jurisdiction in all states, but state police's jursidiction is only recognized in their state.

Thus... federal service awards are recognized all over the US while state service awards are only recognized by the services of said state's military.

CAP is a federal service.  We recognize federal military awards (ribbons, medals, etc.)  State medals (national guard isn't the right description here because they can also have federal awards for federal service) are only recognized by agencies of their state... For example, a soldier from NY Army Nat Guard won the NY State Medal of Valor.  He wears it proudly while on duty with the NYARNG. Then he is activated for T10 duty. The medal comes off.  Then he retires and joins the NY Guard, which is the SDF for New York. The medal can be worn again on NY Guard uniform. The states recognize federal awards and CAP awards are federal too in a way.

[DNall]

Right, don't get me wrong now.. I think it'd be fine if DoD decided to standardize a set of 5 or so decorations, or picked appropriate federal decorations in their place, and delegated authority to state govt to award those. That way you'd clear up this issue completely & not need to ever take them off, could wear them in CAP. But, no it looks wierd to have people from all over the country wearing strange dif stuff (with attachments like a bronze cactus, come on). It's a worthy thing to be fixed, but a little outside our area.

Back to it'd be nice if CAP were a little more creative (see AF example) with ribbon design.

[Hawk200]

I think the post you saw was probably of a Wg CC wearing unauth state awards, & posted to point that out. The same post would tell you that guardsmen are NOT allowed to wear state awards on extended (I think it was 60 or 90 days, something like that) federal active duty (title 10). 

The ANG supplement to 36-2903 says that state awards may be worn by personnel on Title 10 orders of 179 days or less.

Army regs are a little unclear. State awards may be worn by solders when on Title 32 status, but don't seem to be authorized while on Title 10. Active duty soldiers may accept but not wear state awards.

[lordmonar]

Then apparently the picture I saw of a CAP Lt Col wearing his guard ribbons was of an officer out of uniform regulations.  It is somewhere in one of the posts on this site.

No!  That never happens!

It is interesting that guard ribbons are authorized on AF service/service dress uniforms by guardsmen on Title 10 (traditional guard) status, but they are not authorized on AF uniforms worn by CAP members with distinctive CAP insignia.

That is because the USAF cannot dictate to the Guard Branches about their uniforms.  When a Guardsman is on federal status for longer than a certain period of time they guard ribbons have to come off.  So there is no disconnect there from the USAF's point of view.  They would rather not have the NG wear NG ribbons at all but they can't help it.  But they can say take them off when they are on federal status.  Just a CAP members who are active duty cannot wear their CAP ribbons on their AD uniforms.  So once again, there is no disconnect.

 So those senior members who are also guardsmen and have rated guard medals/ribbons cannot wear them on an AF uniform with CAP insignia.  Very interesting.

That is correct.

[DNall]

That is correct.

And not just the rule, but for the right thing to do for the right reasons.

[Hawk200]

One thing to point out about the National Guard wear of state decs. The Supplement to AFI 36-2903 that permits state decs is from the Federal level of the National Guard Bureau, not the state level. People are looking at them as separate, when in fact they are not.

It actually meets the requirements for "authorized for wear on the Air Force uniform" mentioned in 39-1. Then again, it's not like 39-1 isn't contradictory or anything.

Besides, what's the heartburn? It's not like a Guardsman gets a mass of state decs to wear. It's rarely more than one or two ribbons, and those cover things that Federal decs don't. Or is this another case of some people are jealous of military decorations that they can't get so they disallow their wear?

And what about the cases where the National Guard has awarded decs to CAP members? Should they not be allowed to wear something they have earned?

[DNall]

Yeah I'm not real sure what the point of that discussion is either. If you're in the guard, it's a fair bety you have a decent number of federal decs to go along with the two state decs. I guess in theory some state might award a CAP member a state dec they can't wear, big deal. We've already seen the case where a state took this into account & awarded federal Army civilian awards (could have used the AF civilian side also).

[fyrfitrmedic]

 On a completely different note but germane to the original topic, I once heard mention of the use of CAP ribbons on Russian naval uniforms in the movie The Hunt For Red October. Has anyone ever confirmed or debunked this?

[SarDragon]

I have the DVD. I can research it.

[Major Carrales]

See what you can find there?  CAC Ribbon?

[JohnKachenmeister]

A while back there was a commercial for I think McDonald's or some other fast-food joint.  The commercial featured a Lou Gosset-type drill instructor who yelled about something in some sort of mixed-bag characature of a military uniform.  His ribbons were a rack of 6 CAP ribbons, too.

[JohnKachenmeister]

See what you can find there?  CAC Ribbon?

Top row center looks like the Armed Forces Reserve Medal.

[Hawk200]

A while back there was a commercial for I think McDonald's or some other fast-food joint.  The commercial featured a Lou Gosset-type drill instructor who yelled about something in some sort of mixed-bag characature of a military uniform.  His ribbons were a rack of 6 CAP ribbons, too.

I hate commercials like that. I end up doing a slow burn for a few minutes after they're off. Gets on my nerves, you can tell most of the morons they have in those kind of commercials wouldn't know how to wear a real uniform if it bit 'em in the tail.

That and have you ever noticed the ones that wear uniforms as just another set of clothes? They don't have any bearing, just slouching, or sagging like a sack of flour.