Wear of military service uniforms by retired officers while on CAP duty

[Dragoon]

When I went to advanced officer school, we had a captain (O-3 type) who appeared to be completely clueless, such that I wondeed how he managed to get through his platoon time.

Being the blunt and tactless fellow that I am, I asked him.

Turns out he was ex-Navy.  Was a Lieutenant (also O-3, for you Doggies and Zoomies) on active duty, and there was no Navy reserve slot near his home.  He found a captain slot in an Army reserve unit.  They took him in at his grade, and required that he complete officer advanced school. 

Once we found that out, we all pitched in and helped him out, rather than just giving him "What the heck???" looks when he asked dumb questions and had no idea how to write an operations order.

Sort of like the level of understanding you reach when your least-productive co-worker shows you his medal from the Special Olympics.

Happily they don't do that these days unless the guy has the right skill set, like transferring a doctor.

[ZigZag911]

When I went to advanced officer school, we had a captain (O-3 type) who appeared to be completely clueless, such that I wondeed how he managed to get through his platoon time.

Being the blunt and tactless fellow that I am, I asked him.

Turns out he was ex-Navy.  Was a Lieutenant (also O-3, for you Doggies and Zoomies) on active duty, and there was no Navy reserve slot near his home.  He found a captain slot in an Army reserve unit.  They took him in at his grade, and required that he complete officer advanced school. 

Once we found that out, we all pitched in and helped him out, rather than just giving him "What the heck???" looks when he asked dumb questions and had no idea how to write an operations order.

Sort of like the level of understanding you reach when your least-productive co-worker shows you his medal from the Special Olympics.

Happily they don't do that these days unless the guy has the right skill set, like transferring a doctor.

Oh yeah??  Ever heard of the "Blue to Green" program?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Don't know, Dragoon.  probably a function of who they need when and where.  Rather than bring in an O-3 Water Lily, I would think that there are some hungry 1LT's out there.

But... I actually LIKE your idea about flight officer rank for everyone.  I'd carry it one step farther, since the USAF does not avail itself of warrants.  I would recommend that SECAF issue warrants to CAP officers, upon qualification.

We already have 5 warrant grades, and pay is not an issue, since we don't get paid anyway.  This would resolve a lot of issues, including the status of our officers.  We would (Regardless of prior service grade) rank above enlisted airmen, but below all AF commissioned officers.  Putting a program such as that together with the enlisted program for the "Soccer Mom" members and career NCO's would solve a whole bunch of CAP image issues with the Air Force, and open the way to some serious augmentation missions.

Your plan merits serious discussion, Dragoon.  I think its a good idea.

And all this time I thought you Cav. guys were sort of like Marines with GED's!

[ZigZag911]

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[/quote]

One way to eliminate the ego thing is to say, "We don't have commissioned grades in CAP.  We use a flight officer system, which is unique to us, and is recognized by USAF for auxiliarists.  Because of your military experience, which we value, you will start as an FO-2 rather than an FO-1.  Plus, you will recieve waivers for several CAP schools based on your military education.  And if you choose to pursue CAP training and serve in positions of increased responsibility, you will quickly move up through the ranks.

No muss, no fuss.  Since it ain't eh same thing, no egos are hurt.  USAF knows who we are, doesn't attempt to confuse (or compare) us with their warfighting folks, and yet we are on the team and in uniform.
[/quote]

Question: do we still have people pinning on officer rank (although now 'flight officer 1' rather than 2 Lt) in a mere six months?

Other than that, this sounds feasible...even if we rolled all current personnel into equivalent FO level.

[DeputyDog]

But... I actually LIKE your idea about flight officer rank for everyone.  I'd carry it one step farther, since the USAF does not avail itself of warrants.  I would recommend that SECAF issue warrants to CAP officers, upon qualification.

That sounds like a good idea. Any further thoughts on this?

[JohnKachenmeister]

We will still need to proceed with the OTS program for pre-warrant training, and we could fit our existing professional development system into the 5 warrant grades.  (2nd Lt. through Lt. Col. -- 5 grades.  W-1 through W-5 -- 5 grades.  Coincidence?  I think not!)

Issuing warrants would also give SECAF additional control over CAP, and provide for an official status when working for and with the Air Force.

I would offer the "Soccer Mom" members enlisted rank status, Airman Basic through Senior Airman, with very light requirements to serve as drivers, clerks, cooks, and other stuff around the local unit.  I would also continue to give NCO's the option of serving at their highest former rank.

[Dragoon]

Let me give you an old suggestion that's been kicked around on several boards.

Set up a 5 step "flight officer" (or perhaps warrant officer) program.  We'll call the grades FO-1 through FO-5.  Pick whatever titles make you happy.

These become your permanent grade.

Level of the Senior Member Program = your grade.  Finish Level 1 - you get FO-1.  Finish your Certificate of Proficiency (Level 2), get FO-2.  Etc. Etc.

Now, certain jobs in 20-1 would be coded for a maximum commissioned officer grade.  For example, Squadron CC's would max out as  majors, Deputy Squadron CC's and a few key staff officers as captains, with a smattering of 1st and 2nd Lt Billets.  Group and Wing get the Higher Grades.

Now here's where the magic occurs.  Commissioned grade is temporary, and is based on the the lower of:

1.  The max commissioned grade of the position you are serving in.

and

2. The level of the senior memer program you've completed.


For example:

A relatively new member (FO-2) gets thrust into command of a squadron.  The position is coded for up to a major (0-4).  But he's only completed level 2.  So he only gets to wear 1st Lt bars (0-2).  If he completes Levels 3 and 4, he can now wear major's oak leaves (0-4).

If that same person, now a level 4 qualified  squadron commander wearing Major (O-4) oak leaves, decides he wants to step down and just be an observer for a while, with no staff job, he reverts to FO-4)

An FO-5 decides to take the Wing job of Stan/Eval, which is coded for a Major (0-4).  Even though he's a level 5 guy, the max of the slot is 0-4, so that's what he wears.  If he later takes over as the Chief of Operations (coded for an 0-5, he now is "promoted" to Lt Col)

When he goes back to a squadron to be an Aerospace Ed Officer (coded for an 0-2), he reverts to 1st Lt.




ONE CAVEAT - to keep folks from buying lots of mess dress shoulder boards, for social occasions (like Dining's In) the member may wear the grade insignia of the highest grade ever worn, along with a pocket badge identifying the person as a "former officer' (sort of like what CGAUX does)

Advantages -

1.  This system rewards professional development for all members, even those not in any position. But it gives the best rewards to those who compete all training AND work in the tough jobs at the high levels.

2. It gives commanders a powerful accountability tool - if you don't do a good job, I replace you and you give back your cool rank.

3.  It limits commissioned rank to those currently serving as leaders and staff officers in the organization.


Disadvantages

1.  There would still be some grade inversion - if a Level 1 person was a squadron Commander, he could be a 2d Lt in charge of some Captains.  But there will be much less of this than there is today.

2.  Ego - some folks have a problem accepting a grade commensurate with their low level of contribution, and will want to keep the oak leaves that they've "earned" by completing some weekend courses that no one ever fails.

[Dragoon]

And all this time I thought you Cav. guys were sort of like Marines with GED's!

If you ain't Cav, you ain't sh**t.

Conversely if you are Cav,........

[Hawk200]

But... I actually LIKE your idea about flight officer rank for everyone.  I'd carry it one step farther, since the USAF does not avail itself of warrants.  I would recommend that SECAF issue warrants to CAP officers, upon qualification.

That sounds like a good idea. Any further thoughts on this?

I don't think the AF would go for this. They don't have warrants, what reason would they want to do it for CAP? You would be adding a tracking system for a rank structure that doesn't exist in the AF.

[Dragoon]

But... I actually LIKE your idea about flight officer rank for everyone.  I'd carry it one step farther, since the USAF does not avail itself of warrants.  I would recommend that SECAF issue warrants to CAP officers, upon qualification.

That sounds like a good idea. Any further thoughts on this?

I don't think the AF would go for this. They don't have warrants, what reason would they want to do it for CAP? You would be adding a tracking system for a rank structure that doesn't exist in the AF.

I don't think they'd go for warrants, because warrant bars have a very specific meaning in the military (just like oak leaves and stripes).  I DO think they'd go for something uniquely CAP (like flight officer) as it would eliminate confusion between their officers and ours, and make it abundantly clear that they are different, and one is not subordinate to the other.  Which is the way things really work anyway.

[DNall]

When I went to advanced officer school, we had a captain (O-3 type) who appeared to be completely clueless, such that I wondeed how he managed to get through his platoon time.

Being the blunt and tactless fellow that I am, I asked him.

Turns out he was ex-Navy.  Was a Lieutenant (also O-3, for you Doggies and Zoomies) on active duty, and there was no Navy reserve slot near his home.  He found a captain slot in an Army reserve unit.  They took him in at his grade, and required that he complete officer advanced school. 

Once we found that out, we all pitched in and helped him out, rather than just giving him "What the heck???" looks when he asked dumb questions and had no idea how to write an operations order.

Sort of like the level of understanding you reach when your least-productive co-worker shows you his medal from the Special Olympics.

Happily they don't do that these days unless the guy has the right skill set, like transferring a doctor.

Oh yeah??  Ever heard of the "Blue to Green" program?

Not jsut that, people move branches/specialties all the time inside a service, and people move between services quite a lot. Plus there's the guard. How many Guard Captains you think started in another service. You know I was watching a program last night about a Stryker Company in Iraq & they interviewed the Co XO extensively. He was wearing a CIB in top, SEAL & Navy para wings over his Army tape, then halo down on the pocket, and this was an active duty unit (B 5/20 2ID). That's going to get you some looks.

[DNall]

Have to get back to this thread later, gotta run... but, SECAF can't issue warrants for CAP, not real ones anyway. Looking at teh success fo teh Army program, AF wanted to use WOs, at least in the helo community & some other aircrew & specialized positions, but Congress said they'd have to give up officer slots to do it & that just don't fly. In other words, they can't give you a real warrant w/o giving up a 2Lt slot. That may not be hard & fast, I think WO1 gets a "warrant" & doesn't count against the Army total, but CWO2 & up get a "commission" but don't quote me on that. I can tell you in real-time, but that may be a little late for this discussion.

In a practical sense it doesn't matter what sort of grade system we use or if we wear uniforms or are in any other way associate ourselve w/ the military. However, you well know it generates further division from the AF when we don't follow their lead, and it has caused extensive problems in the past. I thnk the fundamental structure is sound, just the standards are not.

[Hawk200]

...Looking at teh success fo teh Army program, AF wanted to use WOs, at least in the helo community & some other aircrew & specialized positions, but Congress said they'd have to give up officer slots to do it & that just don't fly. In other words, they can't give you a real warrant w/o giving up a 2Lt slot. That may not be hard & fast, I think WO1 gets a "warrant" & doesn't count against the Army total, but CWO2 & up get a "commission" but don't quote me on that.

The ironic thing is that giving up those officer positions, and converting to warrant would save a load of money.

[RiverAux]

no grade system.  Just position titles

That is incorrect.  CAP was using grade titles right from the beginning.  I've got notes on CAP grades being used in early 1942. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

...Looking at teh success fo teh Army program, AF wanted to use WOs, at least in the helo community & some other aircrew & specialized positions, but Congress said they'd have to give up officer slots to do it & that just don't fly. In other words, they can't give you a real warrant w/o giving up a 2Lt slot. That may not be hard & fast, I think WO1 gets a "warrant" & doesn't count against the Army total, but CWO2 & up get a "commission" but don't quote me on that.

The ironic thing is that giving up those officer positions, and converting to warrant would save a load of money.

Initially, yes.  But when a service gets a lieutenant, they get a management trainee.  Eventually, he will fly less and spend more time in command and staff positions making things run right so a new batch of lieutenants and captains get what they need to put ordnance on target.  A warrant officer is a technician.  He just flies the plane.  You see warrant 2's and above in command slots within their specialty, but never higher than company level.  And NEVER out of their specialty.

My officer specialty was Military Police, but I had assignments in Public Affairs, and as an S-2 of an Engineer battalion.  Warrants can't be used that way.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Have to get back to this thread later, gotta run... but, SECAF can't issue warrants for CAP, not real ones anyway. Looking at teh success fo teh Army program, AF wanted to use WOs, at least in the helo community & some other aircrew & specialized positions, but Congress said they'd have to give up officer slots to do it & that just don't fly. In other words, they can't give you a real warrant w/o giving up a 2Lt slot. That may not be hard & fast, I think WO1 gets a "warrant" & doesn't count against the Army total, but CWO2 & up get a "commission" but don't quote me on that. I can tell you in real-time, but that may be a little late for this discussion.

In a practical sense it doesn't matter what sort of grade system we use or if we wear uniforms or are in any other way associate ourselve w/ the military. However, you well know it generates further division from the AF when we don't follow their lead, and it has caused extensive problems in the past. I thnk the fundamental structure is sound, just the standards are not.

I'm not sure if that issue with the warrants would be operative or not.  Since we are not on the payroll, I don't think we would count against the end strength of the Air Force.  Sort of like my commission.  I still hold a commission, but since I am in the Retired Reserve, it does not count against the end strength of the Army.  If I am called back to active duty, however, it would.  I probably will be called back to active duty... as soon as the Army needs an MP officer to manage security for Elvis Presley's Live USO Tour.

[BillB]

Kach,  I hate to break it to you, but there won't be an Elvis Tour. He's to flabby to go on stage. I saw him last week and he's just bored stiff.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, I'm standing by for the call anyway.

[Dragoon]

Not jsut that, people move branches/specialties all the time inside a service, and people move between services quite a lot. Plus there's the guard. How many Guard Captains you think started in another service. You know I was watching a program last night about a Stryker Company in Iraq & they interviewed the Co XO extensively. He was wearing a CIB in top, SEAL & Navy para wings over his Army tape, then halo down on the pocket, and this was an active duty unit (B 5/20 2ID). That's going to get you some looks.

10 bucks says he was enlisted navy and then got his commission in the Army.  Happens all the time. It's a fresh start, not a transfer at same grade.

The current blue to green program isn't taking officers, to my knowlege. 

[Dragoon]

My guess is that if the Service Secretary wanted to, he could issue warrants to anyone he wanted.  They wouldn't count against any kind of quota unless they were occupying some kind of paid billet.

Besides the retired reserve, we've also got the Active Guard and Reserve program, which has no quotas.  The service can have as many of those as it's willing to pay for each year.  But if the money runs out, they all go home to momma as unpaid, non-drilling reservists.

I just can't see a reason WHY the SECAF would issue Warrants to CAPers, unless he wants to pay them. Not that he couldn't - I just can't figure out why he'd want to.

He'd certainly set the standards at least as high as for other Warrants Officers in his service (which means USAF would have no clue how to do it...)