Comm - How to talk with event organizers at Airshows

[noturusernamebutmine]

Ok - so let me preface by saying I am new to CAP - I am also a amateur radio operator.

So here is my question - if participating at an airshow and a local amateur radio group (as usual) is acting as "net control" and directing radio traffic for the entire event and I cannot use my amateur privileges to communicate between them and CAP - How can I then communicate with the net control?  (They need to pass traffic about where assistance by CAP is needed) Has anyone found a good solution?  FRS? Air Frequencies?

I know that with the new draft of 100-1 I would be able to not participate as a CAP member and simply "Shadow" another CAP member who can then relay the message.  Until that is enacted how do I communicate with everyone else? 

[Al Sayre]

Assign a CAP MRO to the Communications Center with a CAP radio.

[JoeTomasone]

Or the reverse: Have a ham hang out at the CAP ICP.

[maverik]

Doesn't 100-1 prohibit HAM use by CAP radios? If you had your own portable with a HAM band in there then there you go if you don't see if one of the HAM guys do.

[arajca]

100-1 prohibits use of ham freqs by CAP. It doesn't matter who owns the radio - CAP cannot use the freqs.

[wuzafuzz]

Doesn't 100-1 prohibit HAM use by CAP radios? If you had your own portable with a HAM band in there then there you go if you don't see if one of the HAM guys do.

As stated above, co-locate radio operators from the various organizations.  No regulation prevents us from talking to other organizations in person (as long as you aren't giving up our frequencies).  Infrastructure permitting, you could even talk to them using something like Skype or instant messaging.

The mere fact that we can't currently talk on each others' frequencies need not prevent us from working cooperatively.

[isuhawkeye]

+1

[noturusernamebutmine]

Thanks for the suggestions - I had considered putting a CAP member (as suggested) with the HAMs and then having them relay information across.  Though, I was hoping not having to burn a resource by having them (or me) stuck at a HAM shack just waiting for messages. 

[wuzafuzz]

Thanks for the suggestions - I had considered putting a CAP member (as suggested) with the HAMs and then having them relay information across.  Though, I was hoping not having to burn a resource by having them (or me) stuck at a HAM shack just waiting for messages.

If you actually do this soon, please share your lessons learned.  I'd love to hear how it works out for you.

[noturusernamebutmine]

Wuzafuzz - would be happy to share once completed.  The one idea I am currently toying around with (other than stationing a member at the HAM shack) is to bring a set of FRS radios.  100-1 allows use of FRS radios at airshows - and there is nothing that stipulates (that I can find) that says I cannot use FRS to communicate with the HAMs (they can use the radios just like I can).  I would then essentially have a direct link to the HAMs. 

[arajca]

Make sure are using the FRS channels and not the GMRS. Most FRS radios have both. FRS is unlicensed, so CAP can use it in limited instances (airshow support is one), but GMRS is licensed (although few do license themselves) and CAP cannot use those channels. The instructions for the particular radios will list whether the GMRS channels are on the radio and what channels they are on.

[RADIOMAN015]

Ok - so let me preface by saying I am new to CAP - I am also a amateur radio operator.

So here is my question - if participating at an airshow and a local amateur radio group (as usual) is acting as "net control" and directing radio traffic for the entire event and I cannot use my amateur privileges to communicate between them and CAP - How can I then communicate with the net control?  (They need to pass traffic about where assistance by CAP is needed) Has anyone found a good solution?  FRS? Air Frequencies?

I know that with the new draft of 100-1 I would be able to not participate as a CAP member and simply "Shadow" another CAP member who can then relay the message.  Until that is enacted how do I communicate with everyone else?

If it's not an AF funded ES mission, than strongly consider using whatever radio you personally are licensed to operate and will allow CAP's support to be effective, efficient, & safe.   Seems that Amateur Radio gives the most bang for the bucks and the airshow organizers see that fact! (It's doubtful you could even muster up enough CAP radios assets to provide that comm support.   You can also use those intrasquad radios to communicate among your group IF you have a small sector that the CAP team is responsible for (and you and other license hams could communicate with that small sector via amateur radio).  Personally, I'd stay away from FRS radios because at airshows there's lots of the general pubic using FRS.  Another option would be to try to find some surplus Multi Use Radio Service portable radios (e.g. 154.57/154.60 mhz), such as Motorola's older Spirit series VHF radios (be sure you only stay on the MURS frequencies, which are licensed by rule).   
RM

[JoeTomasone]

If it's not an AF funded ES mission, than strongly consider using whatever radio you personally are licensed to operate and will allow CAP's support to be effective, efficient, & safe.

Seems that Amateur Radio gives the most bang for the bucks

Another option would be to try to find some surplus Multi Use Radio Service

Ahhh, negative, Ghost Rider; CAP cannot use anything besides our HF, VHF, ISR, and limited FRS as discussed.    The prohibition against using Amateur Radio, for example, is codified in 100-1. 

[noturusernamebutmine]

RadioMan - I thought that radio comm on amateur frequencies regarding "CAP Business" is strictly not allowed.   Are you suggesting that airshow events are not "airforce events"? 

The part that I have struggled with is "CAP business" - to me it seems it is referring to using the frequency for internal CAP comms; which I am not.  The frequency is not being used exclusively for CAP but rather a general communication frequency for all agencies.  Quote from 100-1 "The use of frequencies in the amateur radio service to conduct CAP business including SAR/DR operations is prohibited by law. CAP members with amateur radio licenses may only use CAP frequencies for CAP operations" 

[RADIOMAN015]

RadioMan - I thought that radio comm on amateur frequencies regarding "CAP Business" is strictly not allowed.   Are you suggesting that airshow events are not "airforce events"? 

The part that I have struggled with is "CAP business" - to me it seems it is referring to using the frequency for internal CAP comms; which I am not.  The frequency is not being used exclusively for CAP but rather a general communication frequency for all agencies.  Quote from 100-1 "The use of frequencies in the amateur radio service to conduct CAP business including SAR/DR operations is prohibited by law. CAP members with amateur radio licenses may only use CAP frequencies for CAP operations"

Personally I don't see any problem with you an other licensed CAP members using your amateur radio's for appropriate communications back to the command center.  IF your member's aren't licensed amateurs, than IF you have CAP portable radio assets use those to communicate among your personnel, and you and other act as liasions back to the command post (especially if you are using those ISR low power portables).   

In this specific example, you are not on an AF assigned mission; it is not ES related,  and the "customer" has specified with is the preferred radio system to use.
RM     

[JoeTomasone]

Personally I don't see any problem with you an other licensed CAP members using your amateur radio's for appropriate communications back to the command center.

Yeah, who cares about those pesky regulations?   

In this specific example, you are not on an AF assigned mission; it is not ES related,  and the "customer" has specified with is the preferred radio system to use.
RM   

You are confusing ham radio with FRS.   FRS can be used in non-ES CAP activities; ham radio cannot be used AT ALL by anyone acting in a CAP capacity.

[Eclipse]

RadioMan - I thought that radio comm on amateur frequencies regarding "CAP Business" is strictly not allowed.   Are you suggesting that airshow events are not "airforce events"? 

The part that I have struggled with is "CAP business" - to me it seems it is referring to using the frequency for internal CAP comms; which I am not.  The frequency is not being used exclusively for CAP but rather a general communication frequency for all agencies.  Quote from 100-1 "The use of frequencies in the amateur radio service to conduct CAP business including SAR/DR operations is prohibited by law. CAP members with amateur radio licenses may only use CAP frequencies for CAP operations"

"CAP business" is anything you do as a member of Civil Air Patrol.  If you are participating in an activity such as an airshow, etc., as a private citizen, that's fine, then leave your CAP radios are home.

In this specific example, you are not on an AF assigned mission; it is not ES related,  and the "customer" has specified with is the preferred radio system to use.

100% irrelevant to the conversation - whether or not the activity is ES related has no bearing on which regulations are applicable (other than the FRS exception noted above).

[RADIOMAN015]

"CAP business" is anything you do as a member of Civil Air Patrol.  If you are participating in an activity such as an airshow, etc., as a private citizen, that's fine, then leave your CAP radios are home.

100% irrelevant to the conversation - whether or not the activity is ES related has no bearing on which regulations are applicable (other than the FRS exception noted above).

Well the orginal poster doesn't tell us what he has available for CAP radio communications assets to support this assistance to the airshow and what the unit's mission will be.

Again if he's only got 1 VHF radio and 4 intrasquads, than depending upon where the support will be provided in relation to the command post, those low powered intrasquads (or FRS) may not be adequate to provide assistance, since multiple relays would be required to communicate with the command post.  IF the support is in an area where the CAP low powered equipment can reach the command post than use that.  Otherwise there is a dilema of how to talk back to the command post effectively & efficiently.   Again it appears they've done this for years and have found that amateur radio works well and this is the preferred comm method under the provision of the ARES program.

Most units are a long way from Maxwell, trying to "serve their communities", in non ES activities.  Without more information on unit comm resources, it's difficult to develop a comm plan for him.

HOWEVER, in the end, radio communications exists to support operations, and if you need to get a bit innovative to accomplish your "specific" mission, I doubt that anyone will loose any sleep over it.    In the specific instance given, you wouldn't be circumventing the use of CAP radio equipment/radio systems.  You could still use these, however, your "liasion" radio would be your amateur radio.
RM       

[arajca]

Here's a crazy idea...

Ask the wing/group/other units to LOAN some CAP radios for this activity.

[wuzafuzz]

+1

If radio gear needed to accomplish the activity safely cannot be rounded up, then you don't do the activity.  Basic ORM.

If you can't accomplish the activity by working within the rules, you don't do the activity.  Basic integrity.  We all agreed to follow CAP regulations when we joined.

As far as liaison activity, it's simply a non-starter for a CAP member to be talking on a ham radio to accomplish their CAP duties.  In order to avoid the appearance of breaking those rules, never use your ham privileges while "working" for CAP.  Blurring the lines creates an unwelcome perception and starts you down that slippery slope.

The proposed new regs appear to allow us to request support from amateur radio groups, but IIRC they will not enable CAP members to pick up a ham radio themselves.  As stated previously, we can solve any liaison needs by hanging out in the same place as a ham radio operator who isn't wearing a CAP uniform.

I'm not anti-ham, heck I'm one too.  I just have to decide which hat I'm wearing when I go out to play.