Cadets at SAR Evals...

[Gunner C]

One team.  I hated it as a cadet when we had trained for something for a long time but when the cool stuff happened we were elbowed aside by SMs who hadn't been nearly as diligent.  I saw more than a few fellow cadets quit because they were treated like this.  I don't think that cadets today are much different.

[maverik]

In all honestly I believe in a ground team unit as a family this includes trainees in our ground team (ground team of the year for our wing BTW!) we are a unit wwe fight and bicker like a regular family but we're together when it counts! At SAREX's/EVALs/Real deal seal missions if we didn't have our trainees it wouldn't be the same. The USAF evaluators aren't that scary they ar there to make notes on how well you train new people if you train them well and by the book congrats your wing gets money and assests woohooo! So trainees should attend or else what are you gonna do show the USAF guys hat you can train a GTL at a GTM3 task? Yeah that'll fly as well as a H-4

[Gunner C]

In all honestly I believe in a ground team unit as a family this includes trainees in our ground team (ground team of the year for our wing BTW!) we are a unit wwe fight and bicker like a regular family but we're together when it counts! At SAREX's/EVALs/Real deal seal missions if we didn't have our trainees it wouldn't be the same. The USAF evaluators aren't that scary they ar there to make notes on how well you train new people if you train them well and by the book congrats your wing gets money and assests woohooo! So trainees should attend or else what are you gonna do show the USAF guys hat you can train a GTL at a GTM3 task? Yeah that'll fly as well as a H-4

That's why it's called a team.  Otherwise, you have a ground gaggle with a ground gaggle leader.  You're not a team until you've worked together on a regular basis.  If you cut out cadets, you're cutting your "bullpen" considerably.  If cadets can't play, then don't let them train.

[Stonewall]

This whole thing has gotten me thinking and re-thinking my future as a recently appointed DCC.  I come from 22  years of integrating cadets right along side of senior members in all aspects of CAP ES. 

See the attached picture.  This shows 15 squadron members at a larger wing SAR EVAL about 10 years ago.  Notice there are more cadets than seniors. 

This SAR EVAL will be the second activity inside a month's time where cadets were intentionally used as "slave labor" by directing traffic or acting as a "gopher".

I have taken it slow since showing my face for the first time in a year back in December.  I have yet to commit to anything more than 3/4 of weekly meetings and a weekend activity every other month.  I wish I had more time and energy to offer to see if I can make some changes, but at this point, I'd lose the battle.

[ZigZag911]

We have always had cadets participate -- mainly GT, MRO, MSA, some FLM, even the occasional CUL.

Frankly, I find them more focused on the task at hand than some SMs

[es_g0d]

and most cadets will actually do what they're asked to do by competent authority ...... not always so with "other" members! 

[ZigZag911]

and most cadets will actually do what they're asked to do by competent authority ...... not always so with "other" members! 

Ain't that the truth!

As an IC, I often wished that members who only participated to fly (I'm talking aircrew, not pilots) would stay home from SAREXes. There were always more than neded, they'd get underfoot....heaven forbid you suggested they train in a 2nd specialty!

Eventually we started giving preference in aircrew assignments to those who cross-trained, and would spend part of the training mission doing their 'other' job.

[maverik]

pshhhh I have yet to meet an aircrew member that would ditch the flight suit, lounging in the aircrew "lounge" , and the eating out to trade all of it for a pair of BDUs and boots and pound some ground! Actually I take that back I have met one aircrew member that has ground pounded he even gave up his slot.

[jimmydeanno]

During our SAR-EVAL last October our ground branch set up a camp at an alternate location.  We had full blown qualified members and I brought 14 GTM-3 trainees with me (all cadets).  They only thing they were missing were their two exercise participations.  Perfect opportunity!

In fact, now that I think about it, I don't think our wing could actually put together more than maybe 2 Ground teams without cadets.  We have something like 12 GTLs in the entire wing and only about 3-4 (including myself) are physically capable of pounding some ground.

Anyway...the Air Force evaluators were more concerned with making sure that we were sending out the "qualified supervisors" with the trainees than whether or not someone was a trainee.

I think SAR-EVALs are a perfect opportunity for trainees to see a larger scale mission, a lot of personnel, etc.  My (current) wing does not restrict trainees from participating in SAR-EVALs, and I think (in our case) it is a good decision.

[Larry Mangum]

I cannot fathom a SAR EVAL, SAREX or full blown mission without Cadets.   At a lot of the mission I have been on, without cadets we would not have had radio operators, ground teams, or people to update status boards.  It has been my privlidge to have worked with  a large number Cadets that have put seniors to shame when it came to dedication and the ability to count on them.

Trainee's should always be utilized under the supervision of  qualified personnel. The stress's that occurr during a SAREVAl or a real mission just cannot realisticaly be recreated in a SAREX. It is a good way to weed out those who cannot handle the stress or come to the realization that they are not suited for the position they are training for.

[LtCol057]

It's been quite some time since I've been to a SAREX.  The last one I went to, if it wasn't for the cadets, we would have failed miserably.  One of my cadets ran the Comm section, had 3 seniors and a Coastie working for him. He was a C/SMSgt at the time, and sick with the flu.  His section got the highest marks of the whole exercise.  For the first 4 or 5 years after I got back in, the cadets ran the ground teams, or at least in this area they did. The only reason they had a senior member with them was as a driver and the regs required a senior member be with them. 

To me, ANY wing that forbids cadets or trainees at a SAREX, is begging to be shut down.  Or at least the Wing Ops and ES Officers should be relieved immediately. And possibly the Wing CC.

[Eclipse]

During our SAR-EVAL last October our ground branch set up a camp at an alternate location.

This hit a sore point for me - the GBD is not responsible for the teams that are not operational, this is an RUL / Logistics function.

I've seen way too many major exercises go bad because the GBD was distracted setting up and taking care of the camping area.

[Short Field]

^^^ That requires a fully functional and traned LSC - something in very rare supply in CAP.  The SQTR tasks for LSC do not even come close to qualifing someone to function as a LSC in a multi-day event with multiple locations and deployed ground teams, aircrews,  and mission base personnel.

[BTCS1*]

Not to go off topic, but... how long do SAREVALS last?

[Short Field]

Roughly a week.  But that includes different types of activities at different levels.  It tends to end up with Friday PM, Saturday AM/PM, and Sunday AM as the main activity periods.

[SJFedor]

pshhhh I have yet to meet an aircrew member that would ditch the flight suit, lounging in the aircrew "lounge" , and the eating out to trade all of it for a pair of BDUs and boots and pound some ground! Actually I take that back I have met one aircrew member that has ground pounded he even gave up his slot.

Not a good idea to speak in such generalities. Before I was a "zipper suited sun god" type (Mission Pilot), I pounded an awful lot of ground, even though I had aircrew quals. I still make sure I get out there and get dirty a few times a year. I fully believe that, to be a good, effective MP, I need to have experience as one of those guys on the ground. Others may disagree, but when I'm working with a GT from the air, I'm always thinking "Ok, what is that GTL seeing? What can I do to facilitate getting him on target?"

[BTCS1*]

Thanks, I was wondering about why the NY SAREVAL is a week long on the calendar, I was worried that I wouldent be able to participate because of school.(Yes I will be a cadet at a SAREVAL!)

[PlaneFlyr]

I'm ground, air, and base staff qualified (IC3).  If I have a choice, I always opt for ground team. 

As for the cadets on missions, I was qualified as a GT Leader when I was 15.  There were many missions that I took an all cadet, qualified and equipped team out, with a token GES qualified SM to drive the van.  We consistently found our targets faster than any other teams on the search.  Most of the SMs in the squadron only wanted to be aircrew, and resisted GT training, lest they end up walking through the dirt while looking up at their "precious" flying overhead. 

The cadets typically are more motivated to learn the job and do what is needed, than many SMs.  Plus, they tend to have more time to commit.  Excluding them, especially after they work so hard to train, is a slap in their face, and greatly impairs retention.

[Eclipse]

Roughly a week.  But that includes different types of activities at different levels.  It tends to end up with Friday PM, Saturday AM/PM, and Sunday AM as the main activity periods.

That's not typical and varies by wing, it also depends on what you're referring to - regular training exercises (SAREx), or the biennial wing evaluations (though technically they are annual as the mid-term one is a practice).

A SAREx can be as long as the PIC has the ability to plan it, though most are on a weekend.  If NYWG is doing a week-long activity, that's a local mandate.

In most GLR states the biennial evals and annual practices are a weekend, Fri-Sun.

pshhhh I have yet to meet an aircrew member that would ditch the flight suit, lounging in the aircrew "lounge" , and the eating out to trade all of it for a pair of BDUs and boots and pound some ground! Actually I take that back I have met one aircrew member that has ground pounded he even gave up his slot.

Not a good idea to speak in such generalities.

Ditto - here's one as well, though my accidental ability to execute at the bare minimum of standard for GBD has kept me in the EOC for most major excercises the last few years.

[John Bryan]

^^^ That requires a fully functional and traned LSC - something in very rare supply in CAP.  The SQTR tasks for LSC do not even come close to qualifing someone to function as a LSC in a multi-day event with multiple locations and deployed ground teams, aircrews,  and mission base personnel.

CAP does not use ICS the way we should. Look at what we require for LSC and look at what a FEMA rated IMT LSC has to have done and you will get the idea. CAP does not have a 101 rating for Support Branch Director or Services Branch Director....Nothing in the way of medical unit, food unit, supply unit, facilities unit, ground support, etc, etc , etc......hell the way it is set up now the only thing with requirements in the CAP Logistic Section is CUL....So since there is no policy I guess we could appoint a 12 yr old MSA to serve as Services Branch Director??

My point is we are playing games when it comes to ICS and the rest. We require ICS course and then do not follow the ICS program.