FLIR?

[coudano]

There would have to be an STC done for the specific modification for the make and model of the aircraft.  New Weight and Balance for the modification would have to be done.

And A&P can do the maintenance but the mod would have to be signed off by an IA.

I would think that it would affect the drag profile of the airplane as well, having a big ball sticking out one side but presumably not the other.

[lordmonar]

There would have to be an STC done for the specific modification for the make and model of the aircraft.  New Weight and Balance for the modification would have to be done.

And A&P can do the maintenance but the mod would have to be signed off by an IA.

At each removal/insertion?

no at the modification

[a2capt]

Let me rephrase that, the C172, because of other modifications was moved into the utility category, and with the sign/computer installed it was restricted. Essential crew only, and to be flown with the intention of operating the equipment only.

[SarDragon]

I used to fly a C172 with a sky sign on it. If the sign/computer were installed, the aircraft was certified for the utility category only. If the stuff was not installed, it was back to normal.

Really?  Isn't Utility is less restrictive than Normal?

No. I just looked in a 172N POH, and the 172 CG box is much smaller for the Utility category than it is for the Normal category.

[Flying Pig]

The FLIR mounted to the fuselage diesnt have much of a drag profile.  The camera I used to haul around sighed about 80lbs and I never had an issue with it, although I was flying a T206H.  My biggest gripe with CAP is that they put these sensors on 182s.  A turbo would make a world of difference when carrying around the extra weight.  And instead of cramming your people in a 182, transfer them a 206 for some extra room.

[blackrain]

As I recall way back 2-3 years ago (may still be in progress) CAP had subject matter experts working on advanced technology integration of things (ADRS?)like FLIR etc....... for CAP. The idea was to standardize systems and training across CAP. Anybody know where they are on this?

Probably reassigned to a high priority tasking like the NCO project....

Probably right......I'm guessing cost may be the issue.....Looks like a higher end system will cost about  as much as the airframe.......but sure would up CAPs relevance/capability.

[lordmonar]

As I recall way back 2-3 years ago (may still be in progress) CAP had subject matter experts working on advanced technology integration of things (ADRS?)like FLIR etc....... for CAP. The idea was to standardize systems and training across CAP. Anybody know where they are on this?

Probably reassigned to a high priority tasking like the NCO project....

No....no one on that team is part of the NCO project.....if you want throw stones....find another target.

[Spaceman3750]

What about hand held flir binoculars? Search with the eyeball, follow up with flir, like FP said. No STC or installation costs for something handheld. I have to assume that something designed for snipers would work from 1k agl.

[Flying Pig]

Ive used them.... worthless from an aircraft.

[PHall]

What about hand held flir binoculars? Search with the eyeball, follow up with flir, like FP said. No STC or installation costs for something handheld. I have to assume that something designed for snipers would work from 1k agl.

And a real fast way to get airsick too.

[Flying Pig]

What about hand held flir binoculars? Search with the eyeball, follow up with flir, like FP said. No STC or installation costs for something handheld. I have to assume that something designed for snipers would work from 1k agl.

And a real fast way to get airsick too.

Preach it brutha!

[Spaceman3750]

What about hand held flir binoculars? Search with the eyeball, follow up with flir, like FP said. No STC or installation costs for something handheld. I have to assume that something designed for snipers would work from 1k agl.

And a real fast way to get airsick too.

Good thought, I'm not an air guy.

[Eclipse]

I'll take anything anyone will give me for "free" and add it to the tool box, the minute
it cost anything, including soft costs and time (which many people fail to acknowledge)
it need to be tied directly to mission and purpose, with some actual possibility of using it.

Training a whole wing, or even nationally, on platforms which are limited in deployment and/or
controlled by a closed club, or worse, marketing a skill based on that, is self-defeating.

FLIR, ASP, GIIEP, ARCHER, even SDIS, is meaningless to the average member if they can't get involved,
and meaningless to the outside world if we aren't engaged with agencies who will call us to use it.
Further, injecting it into the organization randomly could have negative consequences when
it isn't used to its potential.

If it's useful in one wing, it's useful in all of them, and we should be spending time creating
national programs that find a way to deploy them across the board.

It is no more a savior for CAP then the "magic member" most commanders hope will
walk through their door and fix their program unbidden.

[lordmonar]

If it's useful in one wing, it's useful in all of them, and we should be spending time creating
national programs that find a way to deploy them across the board.

Not always true......and the corollary is definitely not true...."not useful everywhere not useful anywhere".

It is no more a savior for CAP then the "magic member" most commanders hope will
walk through their door and fix their program unbidden.

I don't think anyone is saying it is a silver bullet.  I certainly know the limitations of an IR camera on an airborne platform.   
Is it better then the Mark-1 Eyeball alone?  You bet!  But it does not make the Mark-1 obsolete.  Nor does it mean that it can be used everywhere (COWG would have a lot of problems trying to use the 182-SP).

The danger is the speculative investment.   ARCHER was thought to be all that.....well it wasn't.  Add to that bad training pipeline and management......well you know.

But all that aside.....CAP needs to look at tech solutions to enhance/expand/improve our mission performance.   Sometimes this means we are going to buy a turkey....

[JeffDG]

If it's useful in one wing, it's useful in all of them, and we should be spending time creating
national programs that find a way to deploy them across the board.

That's not even close to being true.  And it illustrates the basic problem with "standardize everything" thinking.

Different situations have different requirements, and tools and training should be tailored to meet the requirements that exist.

There is little use for "Mountain Flying" in Florida, but by the thinking above, if it's useful in one wing, it must be useful in all, and therefore we must make Mountain Flying mandatory for all Mission Pilots, including those in a state where the highest elevation is approximately what crop-dusters fly at.

Water survival is another one.  Well, we fly over-water missions in Florida, so by-God, North Dakota, all your aircrew must be Water Survival trained.  And because Winter Survival is a useful skill for a North Dakota ground team, you better believe that Puerto Rico Wing will be making it a mandatory part of their curriculum.

[JeffDG]

But all that aside.....CAP needs to look at tech solutions to enhance/expand/improve our mission performance.   Sometimes this means we are going to buy a turkey....

I would propose that Wings or Regions be given some, for lack of a better term, R&D budget to work with, rather than everything needing to be a big national program.  Let people do some, controlled, experimentation with technologies, and see what works.  If SER can make a FLIR system work, great, then adopt it nationally.  If NER tries out UberNewTech 2.0 and it fails, the issue is contained in a smaller region, and we can try something different.

Only if you accept the possibility of failure from time to time can you actually develop new things.

But we'll never get there is everything has to be spun up and run out of NHQ where committees have to be formed and before you even start writing requirements you need a dozen people to agree on what kind of donuts are necessary for the kick-off meeting.

[Eclipse]

If it's useful in one wing, it's useful in all of them, and we should be spending time creating
national programs that find a way to deploy them across the board.

That's not even close to being true.  And it illustrates the basic problem with "standardize everything" thinking.

Fair enough, then don't market it as a capability nationally, or even discuss it much outside the wing where it
is being used.

FLIR, ASP, ARCHER, SDIS, whatever is shiny this week, are all marketed, both internally and externally as if they
were standard capabilities available everywhere (that's certainly the underlying insinuation).

[JeffDG]

If it's useful in one wing, it's useful in all of them, and we should be spending time creating
national programs that find a way to deploy them across the board.

That's not even close to being true.  And it illustrates the basic problem with "standardize everything" thinking.

Fair enough, then don't market it as a capability nationally, or even discuss it much outside the wing where it
is being used.

FLIR, ASP, ARCHER, SDIS, whatever is shiny this week, are all marketed, both internally and externally as if they
were standard capabilities available everywhere (that's certainly the underlying insinuation).

OK, I can agree with you on that...

They're making a concerted effort with GIIEP...except for the fact that we have people we've trained years ago that can't get it to show up on their CAPF 101s.  Equipment is out in the field now, and thanks to the partnership with NG, we can get access to more when needed.

[Eclipse]

^ From what we've been told locally, like many other CAP things, before we can even get out of our own way,
GIIEP is being phased out for other systems.  I can't cite anything, only what we're told by the nice people
who hand us the luggage.  Considering it's 10 years old, that's not surprising.

[JeffDG]

^ From what we've been told locally, like many other CAP things, before we can even get out of our own way,
GIIEP is being phased out for other systems.  I can't cite anything, only what we're told by the nice people
who hand us the luggage.  Considering it's 10 years old, that's not surprising.

Hell, if they'd just get a production run of the Sprint Air Cards that are legal for use in the air...that's the big thing we can't do on our own.