Flightline Marshaling - Training and SQTR Signoffs

[mynetdude]

^^^^^^

I and others personally launched 12 -20 aircraft per hour with a combo of biz iron, GA spinners, DC-9 freighters, Convair 440/580's, 20 SA226 freighters EACH day and night and THAT was 25 yrs ago

Sounds like you are a ONE MAN ramp show...maybe you could delegate the keeping track of fueling to a responsibly train ed SM or cadet as part of that training program

This was an FBO and everyone was a FLM / FLS in some form or another and we were responsible for teaching the new guys the ropes on a VERY active ramp often and in contact on radios with ramp supervisors

THAT is a flight line out of CAP where a mistep could get even "deader" with turbine, light jet, and heavy jet movement

Maybe that is where CAP needs to draw experience from (the FBO operators) to assist in training events to do FLS....cuz in that environment...there is no shirking ANY responsibility nor saying that there is no training going or time to train DURING operations.

Better keep training FLM in CAP in same respects as the FBO's!!

This is an excellent topic really, it would be AWESOME if some FBOs would offer training to CAP FLM/FLS and they even have a video that shows some of this stuff.  I was hoping to find training materials I could purchase online and so far I have not found anything really.  I have noticed that there are far more signals than what CAP teaches and I think it would be useful to know some of them.

[heliodoc]

^^^

I would suppose CAP would not need to know ALLL those hand signals.

BUT you could invite the local FBO(s) to work with CAP to do the training or a joint venture and have CAP SET types sign off after the training period.

By involving the FBO(s) there's a possibility of CAP gaining a little more respect and even the FBO(s) insurance (depending on ramp owners) would see a plus involving the volunteers time working with the operation

Some FBO's respect CAP and some do not.  But working with FBO(s) helps establish rapport and hopefully can eliminate some previous hard feelings towards CAP if there were ever those cases.  Nothing wrong with joint training operations

[lordmonar]

As it has been stated.....the FLS is the guy who is supervising the FLM and FLM trainees and signes off on the valuation.

There is nothing wrong with deligating the actual training and operational supervision.....so long as it is the FLS who does the evaluation.

In the USAF maintenance world this is the 3-5-7 level issue.

3 levels are trainees.  They must be directly supervised by a 5 level.

5 levels can work by themselves but all their work must be certified by a 7 level.

While I disagree with the ideal that MUST be a FLS to evaluate and certify a trainee....I can see the logic of the CAWG policy.

[Short Field]

While I disagree with the ideal that MUST be a FLS to evaluate and certify a trainee....I can see the logic of the CAWG policy.

That just goes back to the issue of limiting people with SET quals to the ones who can actually do a professional job of evaluating a trainee instead of racing to see how many people they can sign off in the shortest time possible.

[mynetdude]

^^^

I would suppose CAP would not need to know ALLL those hand signals.

BUT you could invite the local FBO(s) to work with CAP to do the training or a joint venture and have CAP SET types sign off after the training period.

By involving the FBO(s) there's a possibility of CAP gaining a little more respect and even the FBO(s) insurance (depending on ramp owners) would see a plus involving the volunteers time working with the operation

Some FBO's respect CAP and some do not.  But working with FBO(s) helps establish rapport and hopefully can eliminate some previous hard feelings towards CAP if there were ever those cases.  Nothing wrong with joint training operations

I realize that as CAP we may not need to know ALL of the signals, but it would be handy for a FLS to know more of the signals than your typical FLMs will for the rare special occassion a pilot might want something or the FBO wants you to do it a certain way for specific aircraft, etc?

[heliodoc]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills?? 

[Eclipse]

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

The epic nature of your misunderstanding of CAP is the most humorous part of your posts - the fact that you constantly try to denigrate the organization using the same flawed understanding is the capper to your credibility.

As defined by the system and the program today, with no changes necessary, the Commander at each echelon is the final arbiter of whether he will accept someone signing off someone else, and they are free to set a local policy as to who may, or may not be an SET.

Having taken the test online merely means your are eligible to be an SET, not that your signature means anything to anyone.

[heliodoc]

^^^

READ the post previous posts ....  limiting SET quals?  What happens if MR SET qual isn't on the airfield?  Going to stop all operations?  Or do you keep training trainees til FLM turns FLS...think I don't understand?

I wouldn't make toooo many  assertions of credibility...some folks have dressed you down, a few times, Eclipse.  I am nothing special AND surely you and your commentary is rated about the same

You again?  Epic nature?  Misunderstanding of CAP?  Not on your life, Mister.

Thanks for the info 

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't make toooo many  assertions of credibility...some folks have dressed you down, a few times, Eclipse.

The difference being that I am rarely if ever knocked for constantly berating the organization - wrong is wrong, attitude is everything.

[Short Field]

What happens if MR SET qual isn't on the airfield?  Going to stop all operations?  Or do you keep training trainees til FLM turns FLS...think I don't understand?

Anyone can train.  Only SET qualified for that ES achievement can evaluate them and sign them off. 

If MR SET qual isn't on the airfield, no one is getting signed off. 

[mynetdude]

What happens if MR SET qual isn't on the airfield?  Going to stop all operations?  Or do you keep training trainees til FLM turns FLS...think I don't understand?

Anyone can train.  Only SET qualified for that ES achievement can evaluate them and sign them off. 

If MR SET qual isn't on the airfield, no one is getting signed off.

shouldn't even be on the air field/flight line without a SET person or worse without an FLS anyway.

[Short Field]

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs 

I am happy for you.  I have seen too  many people who got qualified and immediately started "training" their friends and signing them off. 

[mynetdude]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills??

I am surprised NESA doesn't have FLM/FLS training considering they have the MAS it would be perfect, I don't know how many CAP aircraft show up for NESA but I'd personally use NESA as a starting point to advance my training and hone it and if David Sinn were there FWIW I don't know him but I'd want him to be my instructor despite how mean he might be

Since you asked, NBB technically is the FLM/FLS school amongst other training that is available such as UDF

[mynetdude]

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs 

I am happy for you.  I have seen too  many people who got qualified and immediately started "training" their friends and signing them off.

There is nothing wrong with someone training their friends and signing them off IF they do it properly and effectively. 

If I am unsure someone is able to perform the task safely and properly then I won't sign them off whether or not they are my friends.  Sometimes I myself am not sure, sure I know how but I need to be more comfortable in what I am doing.  Flight line work isn't one of those, 'oops I made a mistake" cuz you won't live to say it.

[Eclipse]

shouldn't even be on the air field/flight line without a SET person or worse without an FLS anyway.

An SET is not required or even expected to be onsite or involved during operations - they are a training resource only and have no specific
authority or place in ICS.

[mynetdude]

shouldn't even be on the air field/flight line without a SET person or worse without an FLS anyway.

An SET is not required or even expected to be onsite or involved during operations - they are a training resource only and have no specific
authority or place in ICS.

True a SET person does NOT to be present during operational periods, I suppose they can be training without a SET that's fine so I suppose I could train people but I couldn't sign them off.  I am not even qualified, let alone I would not be permitted on the flight line without an FLS even during training so to speak.

It only takes 10-15 minutes to take the SET test, 20 questions multiple choice and unless your wing/squadron will only recognize certain SETs almost everybody I know is a SET person.

[lordmonar]

Well hold on to you seats for this one boy-o's

Who says you MUST have a FLS? 

[mynetdude]

Well hold on to you seats for this one boy-o's

Who says you MUST have a FLS? 

Must you have a GTL to deploy a ground team on a search? I would think that this is similar to flight line marshallers.

[Short Field]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

[mynetdude]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

That makes no sense, why do we need FLS if FLMs can work directly with AOBDs?