Newbee Senior Uniforms?

[RADIOMAN015]

Wow, is all I've got to say about all the uniform combinations, as a new senior member I get to choose from     I sort of like the blue/grey golf shirt with the emblem & grey pants, maybe the white shirt & grey pants (cause with the blue pants you have to wear a hat), and perhaps the blue utility uniform.  I still can't figure out though why we would wear BDU's during search missions, basically everyone is wearing an orange vest.  Personally, I'd like to see just a one piece coveralls or jump suits in international orange color with some Velcro so that you could just put on your rank, US Civil Air Patrol, etc..    take a look at this site for some examples:  http://coverallstore.com/coveralls.htm  --    Well I know you are all saying OH another uniform... I keep telling my boss at work that I'll be backing my vehicle into my parking space & when I get the page I'll be zipping up my one piece response suit!!!!...  But you've got to admit wearing camouflaged BDU's during a s&R mission doesn't seem to make much sense... Comments?? 

[IceNine]

Ahh yes the good v.s evil camo debate.  We currently have a one piece utility uniform that is authorized for just what you are talking about.  However, try being in out in the field on a winter day and all you get is what you can layer under your jumpsuit, or a suitable jacket.  The BDU's hold a certain safety value in that we can not only wear the m65 jackets with liners we can also wear gore-tex, and if you take a look at the ECWCS you can adapt to any type of weather.

The second half of that is that those jumpsuits are not made to withstand any type of snags. So you get out into the field, snag your uni on a thorn bush, and without ripstop your done.  So there are other factors other than the fact that the BDU's are not all that visible to take into account.

[arajca]

Another problem with orange coveralls is that many prison work crews wear orange coveralls. Even many of the prison wildfire crews wear orange Nomex instead of the standard yellow or yellow/green.

[Flying Pig]

HA

You stole my thunder!  We'd be taken down at gun point by the law wearing orange jumpsuits! 

[SARMedTech]

I believe that yellow/green color is called International Yellow and its THE color for emergency services of all types through out the world. Though I cant imagine having to look at a whole field full of guys and gals in International Yellow jumpsuits. Also, i agree that while the jump suit can be used in the field, it makes it very hard to adjust for changing temperature, weather conditions, etc. But...since it is a CAP distinctive, couldnt you put anything over it in as many or as few layers as you need/want? I recall reading about most CAP distinctives that any civilian outerwear is authorized. Darn. guess I cant wear my USCG windbreaker with my BBDUs. I do love that thing. And for the record, I think that the cami BDUs should be done away with. Its one less uniform, would eliminate the conflict about who can wear what any BDU gear you can get in cami, you can get in blue. But here again, military logic....apparently it doesnt matter that there is absolutely no reason for us to be wearing cami at all. I wear the BBDUs and then all of my non-clothing gear (packs, etc) is either blue or "tactical black." Plus I think all of our technicolor bling looks a little less silly on solid blue. Ive seen members of the public laugh at some cadets and SMs with all that stuff on their camis.

[SARMedTech]

PS- I think its a CAP-USAF sick joke that the only cover allowed with the greys is the ball cap. Ive seen this on members and it looks unbelievably stupid and ugly. Not that there ever is, but whats the rational for us not being able to wear flight or service covers with the greys?

[Pumbaa]

It's funny, I never did get the idea of wearing BDU's.. designed to camouflage you... then go right ahead and add blaze orange vest over that to UN-camouflage you.

And yes I understand many wanting to look like mama blue...

When I was shooting combat handgun competitions, I wore ripstop blue BDU pants.  All the practicality of the woodland.. Personally I thought they looked cooler   Now granted it does look more LEO then A.F.

And yes, just to reiterate, there is a profusion of confusion when it comes to uniforms.

I'm thinking.. How about distinctives.. ie. I can maintain my fat and fuzziness, by wearing blue BDUs, Blue flight suit, and then if they changes grooming, Blue TPU pants, white aviator...

Here you have a uniformity of color, (theme) only 3 uniforms that cover all aspects of the mission, all inclusive.  It does move us away from the A.F. in terms of uniform, but at this point CAP is already doing that. 

Your head gear is Flight cap, BBDU cap, or optional blue ball cap for the flight suit or BDU.  Service cap is optional or on full dress parade/ etc.

Simplified?  possibly, but again it does move CAP away from the Real <A#reg> Air Force.

For me, I think looking like the <#reg>  Air Force is less of a worry, than having a uniform look, inexpensive, consistant appearance in the public.  As well as maintaining maintenence and practicality.

I am sure I have spoken anthema to many of the uniform junkies and uniform bigots here.  But there is a point to take what we already have in 39-1 and bring it all together.

[SARMedTech]

Maybe this is what you were saying but how about?

1. Blue BDUs...no more camo.  Boonies are authorized (oh god, someone might think we are SWAT...oh wait...no weapons...whew)

2. Blue and whites with groomed facial hair authorized. Flight cover.

3. The new blue service dress for formal/ ceremonial. Service cover

There...see how easy. Three uniforms in your closet (except maybe more than one set of BDUs) and alot more money in your wallet and perhaps UNIFORMS might get alot less air time on the forums and we could focus on the stupid stuff, like ES, CP and members not having to take out a home mortgage loan to fund their volunteering. I say we let John McCain pay for our uniforms. Or maybe even "W", surely he knows what the Air Force is all about...or does he?

[BillB]

Very interesting,  most of the posts about getting rid of BDUs are from Seniors, many of whom can't wear the regulation BDU. What everyone seems to be forgetting is the CAP Cadet program relationship with the Air Force. Cadets prefer to wear BDUs to blues to start with. The BDU uniform is designed for work in the field. The majority of Seniors do NOT work in the field environment. How many Seniors work with Cadets at Encampment where the BDU is the standard uniform. Almost all of the comments about getting rid of BDUs relate to the multitude of available Senior uniforms. Or the wearing of the camouflage uniform for Ground teams. The blue BDU is just as hard to spot from 1000 ft as the camouflage BDU. Even the reflective orange vest is hard to see in the piney woods of the Southeast. So what is the answer? Make the blue BDU the required uniform for seniors and the regular BDU the required uniform for cadets? Of fifty Seniors taking part in a SAR mision, how many wear flight suits, or blues, or the many corporate variations? Perhaps five would be wearing BDUs in any form. Many Seniors never have need of BDUs when working Base operations, flight crews etc. So why the ranting about getting rid of a uniform Seniors normally don't wear?

[SARMedTech]

If you could site your sources for saying that most Seniors dont wear or have need of BDUs and that most do not participate in operations where BDUs are needed, it would be greatly appreciated. Im not former military, nor do I pay much attention to the military, but are there many military organizations within the US that still wear woodland? I know the USCGs Port Security Specialists do (or did) and that one really makes no sense. I bet alot less folks would be wanting to wear camo if went to the ill-fated blue woodland of USAF fame. Lets face it, those passionate about woodland BDUs are indeed so passionate because then theres no question that you just might sorta be part time volunteer spending alot of your own money on battle rattle associated with the military. Furthermore, the members I have seen wearing BBDUs seem for some reason to know how to wear them...how to blouse their boots and roll sleeves and an awful lot of our camo fans look like they are wearing daddys old uniform for halloween. Also, ive been doing EMS and rescue for awhile and have never had anyone tell me they couldnt see my international yellow at 500 yards regardless of terrain. And for the love of mike if you are in charge of cadets and they are wearing BDUs that hang down past their hands, make them get them altered or roll their sleeves. Talk about unprofessional looking.

PS-BBDUs are reg, just not USAF reg and ive seen alot of folks who dont know how to wear BDUs properly if they are blue, woodland or hot pink. I am all for BDUs. There just is no VALID reason we need camo. You think the AF cares if we look more like them. If they did they wouldnt allow all the technicolor all over the BDUs.  Talk about tacky.

[Pumbaa]

BillB you have a point "ranting about getting rid of a uniform Seniors normally don't wear".

The main issue with me is the fat and fuzzy rule with the AF BDU and AF Blues. 

What this causes is a multitude of uniforms for the seniors.  What we have is an inconsistant look (non-uniform uniforms), and what we have are uniform bigots who look down on those who choose NOT to wear, or cannot wear the AF uniforms.

Taking what you say, then supports the premise of going 'distinctive CAP" blue as in my previous post.

I was at NER SARCOM as PAO last weekend and saw a multitude of seniors who were in AF style uniforms that should not have been.  What I also saw was a multitude of different uniforms for seniors and was asked a number of times from my 'real' AF associates why all the different uniforms..  On the PAO staff we agree'd before hand to wear the grey pants and aviators.  It looked good as a staff, but we stood out differently from those wearing the TPU and the AF blues. 

Tangent:  We also discovered that when covering certain field exercises we were not dressed appropriately too :O ie greys in the field on a 90 degree humid day...  Next time we agree'd that we are going CAP blue for the activities that warrent a flight suit and field gear, again, our staff maintains a uniform look at the appropriate event. /Tangent

Just as the Navy wears a different uniform from the AF, as does the Army, the rangers, the Marines etc.. they have a DISTINCTIVE AND UNIFORM look.  Each branch respects the other (well except for the flyboy and squid comments   )  Look at the fire Dept's or the police, again they have adopted uniforms that might be slightly different from their brothers, but they are uniform from within.  This is the key to me.

In my area we have mainly volunteer fire Dept's, they wear the same uniforms, guess what they also have fat and fuzzies wearing the same uniform!!!  Interesting!!  Perhaps a paid dept would be different in grooming, but it is the difference between paid and volunteer.

Now.. is it an issue that seniors wear the CAP blue for all uniforms when working with cadets who are still wearing the AF colors?  I think not.. As adults we stand out from the cadets, anyway.  We are just uniformed monitors but again UNIFORM being the key.  Cadets wear the AF colors, this way they feel 'military'.. Seniors wear CAP blue uniforms, thus maintaining uniformity within the senior ranks and don't bump against AF grooming and weight.

I also think this would be a way to get back some of the lost cadet respect for seniors.. How many cadets chaff because a senior is too fat and is wearing BDUs?  How many cadets cringe at a senior wannabee wearing AF blues when he should not? Or a senior wanna bee not wearing the AF BDU's or Blues properly.. Cadets really loose respect... The cadet program is different from the senior, they run their show under the 'guidance' of seniors.. different uniform, but again uniform might be a good answer.

Side note: Someone correct me, but there is no weight restriction for cadets wearing blues and BDU's right?

[ColonelJack]

You're right, there's no weight standards for cadets under 18.  At 18, they can wear the corporate blues if they don't meet AF weight standards.

As for your points on the many different kinds of uniforms creating an inconsistent look, you're right on the issue that many look down on those who don't/can't wear AF uniforms, and frankly, they're the ones who need attitude adjustments.  As has been pointed out many times before, if we want CAP to look all-AF all the time, we'd all join the Air Force.  The various styles of uniform are provided so that those who aren't active-duty material (like me, for age and weight) can still have a military-style appearance in the performance of our CAP duties.

But until someone higher up the food chain than us decides the AF uniform shall be appropriate for all CAP officers -- fit, fat, and fuzzy -- we're going to have incidents like the one you cited, where SMs show up in all three of the service dress uniform combinations.  Commanders and conference leaders can't mandate one over the other, can they?  I don't believe so, and if they can, they're certainly not going to alienate large portions of our valuable membership by telling them, "Unless you have the right clothes and can wear them right, you can't come."

Jack

[SARMedTech]

If there is such a regulation for cadets concerning weight, its not enforced across the board. My squadron has a 14 year old cadet who weighs in at 210 pounds. Ive suggested that perhaps he not be allowed to do certain things that might be detrimental to his health since he cant hardly get up from a chair without being winded. I was told "we cant say things like that to them. it hurts their morale." I guess we're lucky they let us old farts join the Cadet Air Patrol. Good thing my CPR is current cause I may be pumping his chest during out next SAREx.[

[SARMedTech]

You're right, there's no weight standards for cadets under 18.  At 18, they can wear the corporate blues if they don't meet AF weight standards.

As for your points on the many different kinds of uniforms creating an inconsistent look, you're right on the issue that many look down on those who don't/can't wear AF uniforms, and frankly, they're the ones who need attitude adjustments.  As has been pointed out many times before, if we want CAP to look all-AF all the time, we'd all join the Air Force.  The various styles of uniform are provided so that those who aren't active-duty material (like me, for age and weight) can still have a military-style appearance in the performance of our CAP duties.

But until someone higher up the food chain than us decides the AF uniform shall be appropriate for all CAP officers -- fit, fat, and fuzzy -- we're going to have incidents like the one you cited, where SMs show up in all three of the service dress uniform combinations.  Commanders and conference leaders can't mandate one over the other, can they?  I don't believe so, and if they can, they're certainly not going to alienate large portions of our valuable membership by telling them, "Unless you have the right clothes and can wear them right, you can't come."

Jack

All the more reason for CAP distinctives only.

[Hawk200]

It amazes me how quickly people forget why we're wearing camo in the first place. C'mon, people, the average goldfish has a longer memory.

Second, just because you can't wear it, doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be allowed to. That's about as selfish as you can get.

I'm all for consolidating, but some of the suggestions I've seen are just as discriminatory against those that aren't (as you call them), fat and fuzzy. Do you not see the irony (to be polite)?

[Pumbaa]

ColJack you are correct that we cannot mandate what is worn unless it finally comes from the top of the foodchain.  But in the case of the PAO staff at SARCOMP, we discussed it and reasonable thought it was a good idea to wear greys.  And yes I beleive it worked out.

If we get the flight we are planning perhaps we would strongly encourage seniors to go CAP blue right from the gitgo, this might be a way to sunset a lot of the other uniforms.. who knows...

Hawk for some of us goldfish please fill us in...

You are correct about those who are fit, and not fat and fuzzy, my point being uniform in uniforms and what would work...

[Hawk200]

Hawk for some of us goldfish please fill us in...

You are correct about those who are fit, and not fat and fuzzy, my point being uniform in uniforms and what would work...

Personally, the discrimination I see from the top is the issue. Pineda himself is not legitimately able to wear the USAF uniform. Hypothetically, would you be surprised if the Air Force told Pineda: "We're not giving CAP metal rank, which is a moot point, because you're too heavy to wear it anyway." Would such a thing surprise you at all?

There's a simple solution. Ditch the grays, allow beards with TPU/TPU Lite. I don't like that uniform, but if it eliminates excess stuff, then it's the way to go. Can you honestly say that blue pants/white shirt would look a whole lot different than blue pants/blue shirt if the insignia were actually matched up?

Go with blue epaulets, or grey epaulets, or freaking lilac, but whatever you do, establish uniformity, by making the insignia the same. One person with a beard wearing white/blue standing next to a person wearing blue/blue is going to match up if the insignia is uniform. Blue epaulets here on a pseudo Air Force uniform, and grey epaulets over on a variation of an actual Air Force uniform is crap, and we've all swallowed it.

We can create uniformity between two vaguely different uniforms. I see it in the local Sherrif's Department all the time. Sergeants and up wear gold accoutrements instead of silver. Lietentants and up wear those gold accoutrements with a white shirt instead of a grey one. All other insignia is the same. The general public never considers the LT as someone from a different department because his shirt is a different color.

Uniformity is very possible, we just have to do something about it.

[SARMedTech]

First off, yes, Im pretty sure that blue shirts and white shirts are different. Its been a long time since kindergarten, but I think thats right.

You've actually contradicted yourself in a way. In EMS (in general, this is not always the case but the terminology is still used) there are the field EMTs and Medics who often wear blue shirts and then there are Medic Supervisors and Ops Managers who wear white, so much so that supervisors, even if the agency doesnt use this uniform policy, are called white shirts (or white hats in the case of firefighters). Think about this scenario for a second. First off, there is no way that all insignia, badges etc can match simply because of varying levels of professional development. Second, if we are working with other municipal or private emergency agencies and there happen to be CAP officers out there, say at the mission base, and some are wearing white shirts and some blue, their culture will make them think "Im gonna talk to the white shirt, he must be a supervisor" and this is where I say you contradict yourself. You say is anyone really gonna notice the different shirts as long as the insignia is the same and then you go on to point out that in police departments, white shirts indicate command, which is a largely accepted practice within ES culture.

When I worked EMS in the desert Southwest, we had uniform inspections for every shift. Now I may not be a "white shirt" but I am a stickler for uniformity. My department wore sage green BDUs, white crew neck t-shirts and Altama desert boots. Everyone was required to wear exactly that uniform carry their gear the same way, etc. When I walked an inspection line I wanted to see covers on properly (we wore boonies), boots properly bloused (like USCGAUX...between 2nd and 3rd eyelets), everyone wearing the same belt, carrying the same color trauma sheers, their radios stowed in the same location on their belts, etc. Overboard...sure. But when we ran a mass casualty incident or our SAR team went out, everyone commented on the look of professionalism and cohesion. The only variations were allowed were longevity pins. There is a reason for uniformity. If you look like the officer next to you, you work better together, you begin to think alike. That is the whole point of the uniform. Is it so important to wear AF blues that we have to discriminate against those who dont meet some arbitrary regulation that even the NC cant meet. To my mind, its more important to have cohesion and uniformity. As Fuzzy says, when an AF officer walks up to you and says, whats with all the different uniforms, it might be time for a change. Its no wonder they treat us like the black sheep of the AF family because thats the way we act.  Semper Vi! That is all.

[Ned]

I got tired of tilting at the "non-uniform uniforms" windmill years ago after performing a thought experiment.


Imagine starting from scratch, and designing professional, high speed uniforms that clearly identify members who are:

80 lbs
380 lbs

4'-2"
7'-2"

fuzzy
not fuzzy

pregnant
not pregnant

crutches/wheelchaired
not visiibly disabled

cadets engaged in a military leadership training program
officers engaged in emergency services, customs, and  counterdrug missions
cadets and officers engaged in aerospace education

working in the snow
working in the desert

working in an office
working in a public school

working in an airplane
working in a forest

working on the side of a mountain
working in a swamp

participating in a ceremony
participating in an awards banquet

meeting with parents and school admnistrators
meeting with Air Force officers at the Pentagon or a USAF base

(etc., etc., etc.)


And remember, any uniform design has to be widely available in all 50 states, comfortable, durable, easy to maintain, and reasonably inexpensive.  And it would be nice if it reflected our Air Force heritage.


Ready . . . set . . . GO!


What did you come up with?

Now, let every uniform "afficianado" in CAP comment on it, and remember it has to please everyone.

Or at least each of the members who has posted so far in this thread.

I submit that no other organization on the face of the earth has been able to meet anything close to this range of requirments.  If you look in the AFI, even the USAF requires well over a dozen uniforms to meet their requirements, and they don't have anything approaching the diversity of members that we do.

(Well, technically I guess McDonalds comes close to attempting to have uniforms to cover a highly diverse crew world wide, but nobody I know would ever consider a McDonald's crew uniform an effective recruiting tool for cadets or seniors. )


Bottom line, our plethora of uniforms does not stem from some evil cabal of schizophrenic military fashionistas, but is the result of a very common sense series of compromises in response to real world conditions, the diversity of our membship and missions, and the external dictates of the USAF concerning who can wear a USAF-style uniform.

Based on the comments here, it seems probable that each of us might have arrived a slightly different compromise -- the number and kinds of uniforms might be different depending on which of us gets to be the Uniform Czar of CAP.

But it will always remain a "mix of uniforms."

And an endless source of circular discussion.

Ned Lee
a CP kind of guy

[SARMedTech]

You might be right, if and only if-

This uniform cluster cook actually had the kind of situational dependence you describe.  Sure, the USMC has different varieties of uniforms, so does the Army. But there is a specific purpose behind each uniform: formal occasions, meetings, operations, etc. We dont have this. Sure, the regs sort of suggest that a certain uniform would be appropriate for a certain function. But as we have heard, this is not hard and fast. I was recently as a sort of semi-formal squadron. I wore my newly acquired service coat and tie and was one of the first to arrive. After me came in officers wearing blues and greys (with and without ribbons), blazer combos, mess dress and even one member in  the "golf" uniform. If we are going to continue to have more uniform combinations than the military of most countries then there needs to be a mandate. Im getting a little weary of hearing "You cant tell members what they have to do. They will get upset and leave."  My feeling is dont let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. We are members of an organization based on a military model. If CAP-USAF wants to keep that military model intact, they must  say "you WILL wear this uniform for this occasion." If we had one hard and fast regulation, I think that would have to be it. The USCGA doesnt have this problem and I have to tell you that my friends in the CG Aux really think we are pretty silly and disorganized. Lets stop all of this weight garbage and have all members where the same three uniforms. If the AF is is concerned about maintaining appearances theyre not doing a very good job. An overweight officer is an overweight officer and hes going to be that and people are going to associate him with the AF regardless.

6 Uniforms:

BBDUs with weather dictated accoutrements and standards (being allowed to wear BDU trousers and t-shirt on operation or exercise when weather is a concern.

Service blue/whites with garrison cap

Corporate Dress Jacket uniform with service cap

Mess Dress with service cap

Blue Flight Suits with flight cap

Blue Coveralls for work details

Then we could add headgear variations-boonies, ballcaps, squadron ball caps

With the exception of the TP coat, all of these uniforms are both CAP distinctive and AF style since if you look at most of what makes CAP distinctives different, its color.