Shuttle Run Moratorium

Started by Майор Хаткевич, July 30, 2015, 10:00:26 PM

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TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on August 27, 2015, 03:23:57 AM
How does the Shuttle Run help a cadet be prepared to be on a Ground Team???  Haven't seen too many teams who run 30 feet, stop, reverse direction and run 30 feet the other way. What exactly is the Shuttle Run testing?

That's an argument that has floated through the military community for a LONG time...
"Why should we train to run 2 miles? How many miles will you run in combat?"
I suppose the standard is to measure overall performance and endurance, not so much the ability to perform a specific task (i.e., urban assault, SAR, etc.)

Maybe a proposal might be to mandate an overall minimum fitness standard, and extend it for those who want to stay current for qualification (ground team). Just a thought.

But I don't agree that the shuttle run is a proper measurement of physical fitness. It does not maintain a healthy lifestyle, nor promote CAP exercise. It's a quick 10-second challenge that really has no benefit. They should drop the sit-and-reach too in my opinion.

Alaric

Quote from: NC Wing Range Master on August 27, 2015, 02:54:42 AM
Maybe it is just because my background is all Army, (24 years active duty most on AIRBORNE status in the AWESOME 82d AIRBORNE), BUT, what's next?  I agree that we need to do what we can to limit/lessen injuries...Trust me, being a disabled Veteran, I can attest to you that getting hurt sucks...HOWEVER....We are going to stop the shuttle run to lower injuries?  WOW, why don't we just wrap them up in bubble wrap and let them bounce down the road?

This question may seem silly, but think about this.  Our REAL WORLD Mission is Search and Rescue, hence Hawk Mountain, Ground Team running with gear, Stuff you need helmets for...Need I go on?  How can we expect to engender in our Cadets the spirit and attitude needed for survival in harsh environments when we stop a simple thing like a shuttle run because it is "Unsafe".  How many Basketball coaches would choke on their chewing gum if you told them that they had to stop 1/4 Court - 1/2 Court - 3/4 Court- Full Court sprints?  Did no one other than me do this in Gym in High School?

I would submit that Yes, you need to select a solid, non rocky, surface to do the test.  A Hangar floor or a Drill Hall, or a taxiway at the airfield for instance, but it is not the approved solution to end it altogether.

While Hawk Mountain may be a fine school, and an excellent training ground (I can neither confirm or deny as I've never been there), GSAR is not THE mission of CAP, it is a part of the ES mission; which in turn is one of the 3 missions ES, Cadet Programs and Aerospace Education. 

Brit_in_CAP

Quote from: Alaric on August 27, 2015, 04:11:12 PM

While Hawk Mountain may be a fine school, and an excellent training ground (I can neither confirm or deny as I've never been there), GSAR is not THE mission of CAP, it is a part of the ES mission; which in turn is one of the 3 missions ES, Cadet Programs and Aerospace Education.

..and again...+1000  :clap: :clap: :clap:


Storm Chaser

The National Ground Search and Rescue School at NESA is one of the finest GSAR schools in CAP and, while its training is physically challenging, there's no running or PT involved.

kwe1009

I said this earlier today during a learning lab at the National Conference when we went down the new CPFT road:

PT programs change to meet the needs of current society.  I have been in the Air Force for over 27 years and I have seen a lot of changes in PT and PT standards (for better and for worse).  I don't necessarily agree with lowering standards but if we can keep more cadets involved and thus getting more fit and learning to be leaders then it is something I think we need to do.

Full time cadet

#65
Only 2-3 people passed PT because of this.

Mod edit:  Post restored.  Further obliteration of posts will result in revocation of editing privileges.

PHall

Quote from: Full time cadet on August 29, 2015, 03:26:06 AM
.


Not cool to nuke your post like that.  And it's against the rules too.

You want to remove a post, ask a Mod to do it.

Eaker Guy

Integrity Cadet. One of our core values. You post here, you stick by it. You can change your mind, but you cannot change what you say/said. Good life principle.

Semper Vigilans,

C/Maj Kiss, CAP
C/CC of some squadron in the CAP. :)

NC Wing Range Master

How many high school coaches would concur with this?  Really? Because we want to stop skinned knees we eliminate an exercise that dates back the 40 years of so since I did Middle School Phys Ed.

Wrap the Cadets in Bubble Wrap or let them run.  I disagree with this planned change.  If you are doing this on gravel, then the problem is with the area you choose to do this.  in a drill hall, on a taxi way or in a gym, this will be just as it always has been.  It has been a staple of Basketball coaches for decades.  This ranks up there with banning Peanut Butter for all kids, because you want to make sure that the one kid that is allergic to it (and should know not to eat it) might be in the same room with Peanut Butter....Give Me A Break!

For 24 years I jumped out of US Air Force Aircraft, Carried big heavy rucksacks and ate MRE's for long periods at the time. I skinned my knees, twisted, sprained or broke stuff, and would do it again in a minute.

We are supposed to be SAR and Ground Team specialists.  Perhaps, and I am just guessing here, that the shuttle run is NOT the most dangerous ting we train cadets to do....Just Sayin'

easier than eatin' Pancakes.

AIRBORNE!  ALL THE WAY
1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
MER-NC-162 CDC
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
iredellcap.com  

PHall

Quote from: NC Wing Range Master on November 04, 2015, 04:36:08 AM
How many high school coaches would concur with this?  Really? Because we want to stop skinned knees we eliminate an exercise that dates back the 40 years of so since I did Middle School Phys Ed.

Wrap the Cadets in Bubble Wrap or let them run.  I disagree with this planned change.  If you are doing this on gravel, then the problem is with the area you choose to do this.  in a drill hall, on a taxi way or in a gym, this will be just as it always has been.  It has been a staple of Basketball coaches for decades.  This ranks up there with banning Peanut Butter for all kids, because you want to make sure that the one kid that is allergic to it (and should know not to eat it) might be in the same room with Peanut Butter....Give Me A Break!

For 24 years I jumped out of US Air Force Aircraft, Carried big heavy rucksacks and ate MRE's for long periods at the time. I skinned my knees, twisted, sprained or broke stuff, and would do it again in a minute.

We are supposed to be SAR and Ground Team specialists.  Perhaps, and I am just guessing here, that the shuttle run is NOT the most dangerous ting we train cadets to do....Just Sayin'

easier than eatin' Pancakes.




It would be nice if it were just skinned knees, but it isn't.  It's stuff like sprained and tore up ankles and knees.
And the injury rate for the shuttle run is about double of what it is for the mile run or any other part of the CPFT.


Ned

Plus the fact that the shuttle run does not measure what the mile run measures.  Cardiovascular fitness.

Looks like they never should have been offered as "alternatives."

So, working with the Safety folks it was an easy call.  If the test doesn't actually measure what we wanted to measure AND it hurts a significant number of cadets, then we shouldn't do it.

Physical fitness tests are difficult to design and implement in a meaningful manner.  And reasonable people (including reasonable scientists and health professionals) often disagree about some of the specifics.

Watch for the new CPFT draft to be published for comment soon.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

TheSkyHornet

As Ned said, the key issue, even though there was a safety factor, is that the shuttle run is an easy out to the mile run. Cadets who couldn't pass the mile just did the shuttle run, which lasted all of 10 seconds. That's not a physical feat that measures your abilities. It doesn't indicate that you're a healthy teen or that you can ruck to find a missing person.

Perhaps the published reason behind removing the shuttle run was because it took a safety issue to finally address it as an event, but it wasn't good to begin with as part of the CPFT. How many cadets do we know who would "skip" the mile run and just use the shuttle run for their score, which, in my opinion, was almost shameful.

"I can't run and won't promote because of it"
"Then I guess you better start training, eh?"

Ned

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 04, 2015, 09:07:13 PM
Cadets who couldn't pass the mile just did the shuttle run, which lasted all of 10 seconds. That's not a physical feat that measures your abilities. It doesn't indicate that you're a healthy teen or that you can ruck to find a missing person.

A gentle non-concur on one aspect.  The shuttle run certainly measures something.  As I understand it, mostly agility with some indication of an overall fitness level.  I know I can't pass it, for instance, because at my age I am considerable less agile than I once was.

But it doesn't measure cardiovascular fitness which would be the only reason we would consider it an "alternative" to the mile run.  Which mostly measures cardio, and not much else.




Fubar

There has been a tremendous amount of teeth-gnashing in my wing about all the cadets that will no longer promote (and subsequently quit) with the removal of the shuttle run.

At a time that recruiting and retention are a part of every national, regional, and wing briefing, couldn't this have been postponed until the new CPFT was released?

Alaric

Quote from: PHall on November 04, 2015, 06:08:40 AM
Quote from: NC Wing Range Master on November 04, 2015, 04:36:08 AM
How many high school coaches would concur with this?  Really? Because we want to stop skinned knees we eliminate an exercise that dates back the 40 years of so since I did Middle School Phys Ed.

Wrap the Cadets in Bubble Wrap or let them run.  I disagree with this planned change.  If you are doing this on gravel, then the problem is with the area you choose to do this.  in a drill hall, on a taxi way or in a gym, this will be just as it always has been.  It has been a staple of Basketball coaches for decades.  This ranks up there with banning Peanut Butter for all kids, because you want to make sure that the one kid that is allergic to it (and should know not to eat it) might be in the same room with Peanut Butter....Give Me A Break!

For 24 years I jumped out of US Air Force Aircraft, Carried big heavy rucksacks and ate MRE's for long periods at the time. I skinned my knees, twisted, sprained or broke stuff, and would do it again in a minute.

We are supposed to be SAR and Ground Team specialists.  Perhaps, and I am just guessing here, that the shuttle run is NOT the most dangerous ting we train cadets to do....Just Sayin'

easier than eatin' Pancakes.




It would be nice if it were just skinned knees, but it isn't.  It's stuff like sprained and tore up ankles and knees.
And the injury rate for the shuttle run is about double of what it is for the mile run or any other part of the CPFT.

Not debating the numbers but where are they?  I have never had a cadet injured during PT testing so I'm just curious, where can I find these numbers?

THRAWN

Quote from: PHall on November 04, 2015, 06:08:40 AM
Quote from: NC Wing Range Master on November 04, 2015, 04:36:08 AM
How many high school coaches would concur with this?  Really? Because we want to stop skinned knees we eliminate an exercise that dates back the 40 years of so since I did Middle School Phys Ed.

Wrap the Cadets in Bubble Wrap or let them run.  I disagree with this planned change.  If you are doing this on gravel, then the problem is with the area you choose to do this.  in a drill hall, on a taxi way or in a gym, this will be just as it always has been.  It has been a staple of Basketball coaches for decades.  This ranks up there with banning Peanut Butter for all kids, because you want to make sure that the one kid that is allergic to it (and should know not to eat it) might be in the same room with Peanut Butter....Give Me A Break!

For 24 years I jumped out of US Air Force Aircraft, Carried big heavy rucksacks and ate MRE's for long periods at the time. I skinned my knees, twisted, sprained or broke stuff, and would do it again in a minute.

We are supposed to be SAR and Ground Team specialists.  Perhaps, and I am just guessing here, that the shuttle run is NOT the most dangerous ting we train cadets to do....Just Sayin'

easier than eatin' Pancakes.




It would be nice if it were just skinned knees, but it isn't.  It's stuff like sprained and tore up ankles and knees.
And the injury rate for the shuttle run is about double of what it is for the mile run or any other part of the CPFT.

Out of the hundreds of kids that I've coached and the hundreds of times that I've done this type of test myself, I've never seen a sprain/"tore up ankle", etc. Ever. In over 30 years of doing this. This includes my time in CAP where I have seen exactly zero cadets injured during a PFT.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

vorteks

Quote from: THRAWN on November 05, 2015, 02:08:47 PM
Out of the hundreds of kids that I've coached and the hundreds of times that I've done this type of test myself, I've never seen a sprain/"tore up ankle", etc. Ever. In over 30 years of doing this. This includes my time in CAP where I have seen exactly zero cadets injured during a PFT.

You must be doing it wrong.  >:D

jeders

Quote from: THRAWN on November 05, 2015, 02:08:47 PM
Out of the hundreds of kids that I've coached and the hundreds of times that I've done this type of test myself, I've never seen a sprain/"tore up ankle", etc. Ever. In over 30 years of doing this. This includes my time in CAP where I have seen exactly zero cadets injured during a PFT.

Are you doing the test in a narrow hallway? Maybe a slick surface? My guess is no, because you appear, from comments you have made here, to have training that allows you to know how to safely conduct the shuttle run. However, there are a number of well intentioned CP officers around the country who either do not have experience administering physical fitness tests or who are simply trying to get a job done in non-ideal situations.

As for me, I have seen cadets injured doing the PFT. One slipped while turning for the shuttle run, another tripped over a curb while running backwards on the mile run, others have simply tripped over their own feet.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Garibaldi

Quote from: jeders on November 05, 2015, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on November 05, 2015, 02:08:47 PM
Out of the hundreds of kids that I've coached and the hundreds of times that I've done this type of test myself, I've never seen a sprain/"tore up ankle", etc. Ever. In over 30 years of doing this. This includes my time in CAP where I have seen exactly zero cadets injured during a PFT.

Are you doing the test in a narrow hallway? Maybe a slick surface? My guess is no, because you appear, from comments you have made here, to have training that allows you to know how to safely conduct the shuttle run. However, there are a number of well intentioned CP officers around the country who either do not have experience administering physical fitness tests or who are simply trying to get a job done in non-ideal situations.

As for me, I have seen cadets injured doing the PFT. One slipped while turning for the shuttle run, another tripped over a curb while running backwards on the mile run, others have simply tripped over their own feet.

Not their fault, failure to adhere to ORM and safety procedures, typical teenage clumsiness. In that order.

I've seen the potential for failure in the shuttle run, both in school and in CAP. Kids can and do slip, trip, stumble, and fall in this exercise, no matter what the terrain. I've cringed while watching a gangly 5'11" cadet (who literally went from 5'2" in the span of two months or so it seemed) do the shuttle run. I was afraid he'd break a leg or turn his ankle because he wasn't used to being so big so fast. I always thought the shuttle run was a bad, bad idea. It doesn't do anything IMO to fulfil the PFT requirements and in some cases is harder than the other activities on the body.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Alaric

Quote from: jeders on November 05, 2015, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on November 05, 2015, 02:08:47 PM
Out of the hundreds of kids that I've coached and the hundreds of times that I've done this type of test myself, I've never seen a sprain/"tore up ankle", etc. Ever. In over 30 years of doing this. This includes my time in CAP where I have seen exactly zero cadets injured during a PFT.

Are you doing the test in a narrow hallway? Maybe a slick surface? My guess is no, because you appear, from comments you have made here, to have training that allows you to know how to safely conduct the shuttle run. However, there are a number of well intentioned CP officers around the country who either do not have experience administering physical fitness tests or who are simply trying to get a job done in non-ideal situations.

As for me, I have seen cadets injured doing the PFT. One slipped while turning for the shuttle run, another tripped over a curb while running backwards on the mile run, others have simply tripped over their own feet.

Then perhaps the solution is proper training rather then banning the test?  I would just like to see the actual numbers, is there a database?