The Need for the Chaplaincy

[Eclipse]

If you think lawyers aren't needed, you haven't worked at Wing or a higher level..

Legal officers are only needed in regards to contract negotiations and protecting the corporation,
and the protection stuff is mostly done by non-volunteer counsel anyway.

We'd be better off having either non-members simply hired for this jobs, or getting pro-bono
support from the USAF.

Below Wing they have no duties, and these days most, if not all, contracts have to go to NHQ, so even
at Wing or Region their need is dubious.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

If you think lawyers aren't needed, you haven't worked at Wing or a higher level..

Legal officers are only needed in regards to contract negotiations and protecting the corporation,
and the protection stuff is mostly done by non-volunteer counsel anyway.

We'd be better off having either non-members simply hired for this jobs, or getting pro-bono
support from the USAF.

Below Wing they have no duties, and these days most, if not all, contracts have to go to NHQ, so even
at Wing or Region their need is dubious.

Wing Legal Officers are a critical part of the IG Complaints process. Most specifically in investigations. 

[Eclipse]

Wing Legal Officers are a critical part of the IG Complaints process. Most specifically in investigations.

Agreed.  On paper.  That falls into the "protecting the corporation" category.

Reality varies pretty heavily from Wing-to-wing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first unit had a Chaplain and he was a real go-getter.

He was a Presbyterian minister serving a congregation and being a hospital chaplain.

In CAP, he held Observer and (I think) Ground Team qualifications.

I liked him a lot.  We had a great rapport.

We lost him when he got a call to a congregation in another state.  Our loss.  I hope he remained active in CAP.

He told me that to be a CAP Chaplain, he had to go through exactly the same vetting process/ecclesiastical endorsement as a Chaplain in the active Air Force, ANG, or AFRES.

He also told me that a State Defence Force had offered him Lieutenant Colonel straight up if he joined as a chaplain...he didn't take them up on it, but he was seriously considering the AFRES.

[Spaceman3750]

We had a Baptist minister join our squadron. It was actually kind of cool, his son was a SM and his granddaughter is still a cadet. He wanted to become a chaplain. Apparently not only is it incredibly difficult to become a CAP chaplain, but baptists are weird in that their ministry colleges aren't regionally accredited. Also he could never figure out what an ecclesiastical endorsement meant in the context of his flavor of baptist. It was unfortunate, apparently he had some conversations directly with the wing chaplain that made him mad, and by the time me or my CC found out he was already gone and there was nothing we could do to fix it. His son left shortly after, which was a decent blow to my units ES capability, as he was tracking to be a GTL.

Oh well.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Apparently not only is it incredibly difficult to become a CAP chaplain, but baptists are weird in that their ministry colleges aren't regionally accredited.

It depends on what "flavour" of Baptist he was.  Our first chaplain was exactly the same - Independent Baptist, and it was like parting the Red Sea (ouch) to get his ecclesiastical endorsement, because he wasn't even sure who to talk to!  Conversely, the major organised Baptist denominations (Southern Baptist, and my wife's former denomination, American Baptist) do have large governing bodies, and it is a lot easier to deal with them, as with other major ecclesiastical bodies - Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Disciples of Christ and my own Lutheran (Missouri Synod).  I do not know how Buddhist or Muslim chaplains go about ordination, because I know very little about their religions.

But for the smaller "independent" ones, like the "Bible Churches," some Pentecostalists, and the more independent Baptists, it can be a battle.

An amusing incident I will likely never forget is when a guy showed up to one of my squadrons and said he was an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, which a lot of draft-dodgers got "ordained" into to try to get out of serving in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church

He may have been sincere - that is not for me to judge.  But he showed up at the squadron meeting with this filthy clerical collar that looked like it had not been washed since the Great Flood and his "credentials."  The squadron CC took me aside (I was one of the only unit members really involved with a church) and asked me if he was legit or a couple beers short of a six-pack.  I told him I didn't know, but I suggested that the CC direct him to the Wing Chaplain.  He did, and we never heard from the guy again.

[Archer]

Apparently not only is it incredibly difficult to become a CAP chaplain, but baptists are weird in that their ministry colleges aren't regionally accredited.

It depends on what "flavour" of Baptist he was.  Our first chaplain was exactly the same - Independent Baptist, and it was like parting the Red Sea (ouch) to get his ecclesiastical endorsement, because he wasn't even sure who to talk to!  Conversely, the major organised Baptist denominations (Southern Baptist, and my wife's former denomination, American Baptist) do have large governing bodies, and it is a lot easier to deal with them, as with other major ecclesiastical bodies - Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Disciples of Christ and my own Lutheran (Missouri Synod).  I do not know how Buddhist or Muslim chaplains go about ordination, because I know very little about their religions.

But for the smaller "independent" ones, like the "Bible Churches," some Pentecostalists, and the more independent Baptists, it can be a battle.

An amusing incident I will likely never forget is when a guy showed up to one of my squadrons and said he was an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, which a lot of draft-dodgers got "ordained" into to try to get out of serving in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church

He may have been sincere - that is not for me to judge.  But he showed up at the squadron meeting with this filthy clerical collar that looked like it had not been washed since the Great Flood and his "credentials."  The squadron CC took me aside (I was one of the only unit members really involved with a church) and asked me if he was legit or a couple beers short of a six-pack.  I told him I didn't know, but I suggested that the CC direct him to the Wing Chaplain.  He did, and we never heard from the guy again.

What about Westboro Baptist?

[LSThiker]

I do not know how Buddhist or Muslim chaplains go about ordination, because I know very little about their religions.

I met the Army's first, and at that time only, Buddhist chaplain:  CPT Thomas Dyer.  Nice guy.  At the time, he was a TN-ARNG chaplain but has since transferred to AD.  He was a former Baptist minister.  He said it is pretty much impossible for Buddhists to join as chaplains since the Army requires a Masters in Theology, which he got by first being a Baptist minister.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've had to deal with far too many Chaplains who tried to use their position as an avenue towards evangelizing / recruiting
members, or who injected doctrine and opinion into MLO/CDI sessions and similar.    I've worked with a couple
who were awesome as both members and clergy, but far to many with a high noise-to-signal ratio.

The Chaplain I mentioned in another posting on this thread, a Presbyterian minister (who was also Observer and I believe GT qualified) had a conversation about this once, about 15 years ago.

He said, "as a Chaplain, I am required to meet people where they are spiritually.  I am to be available to anyone, regardless of religion, including atheists and agnostics."

I was once counselled by an AF Chaplain who was a Jewish Rabbi.  I am not Jewish, so I was sceptical how he would relate but this particular "Skypilot" probably saved my life, and that's no exaggeration.

[JeffDG]

Wing Legal Officers are a critical part of the IG Complaints process. Most specifically in investigations.

Agreed.  On paper.  That falls into the "protecting the corporation" category.

Reality varies pretty heavily from Wing-to-wing.

What is it with you and "Yeah, the regulations say that, but I don't like it so I'll just ignore that the regs say that and continue spouting my myths." meme?

[Eclipse]

It's called the practical reality vs. what CAP would like to assert is supposed to happen.

[JeffDG]

It's called the practical reality vs. what CAP would like to assert is supposed to happen.

Ahhh, I get it.  You're right, and everyone should take your word, regardless of what's actually written in the regs.

[Eclipse]

In this case, I agreed with what the regs say, and then pointed out that the practical reality was different in some wings.

[Brit_in_CAP]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

Agreed on all points - if someone is mentally scarred because of a CAP mission or similar, they need to seek professional, external assistance.

Agreed; I was attracted to CAP initially as a CDI - no regrets and I find it very fulfilling - but also by the opportunity to be trained in CISM.

Since then, 'pay to play' has meant no CISM training for me but, more importantly, I've been persuaded to leave it alone.  That persuasion was done by a former CAP Chaplain who had trained in CISM and who deals with this type of activity in his non-CAP ministry.  This is not for the untrained, enthusiastic amateur.  There is *no way* that I would have allowed the enthusiastic young CAP SM I met in my CAP travels, who was CISM trained in his paying job (allegedly), come anywhere near me. 

There *are* other things that CAP could adopt that would be useful and helpful in this arena but the organization is *deep* into CISM and it has its' claws into CAP. 

The other things I mentioned don't involve 'interventions' or anything else, they are simply formalized methods for assessing if an individual is in need of professional help after an traumatic incident in their lives - easy to train on, cheap to do and don't need lots and lots of repeat qualifications.... no interest from CAP despite their adoption by some serious organizations across the world.

To repeat myself: I truly enjoy being a CDI and I'd stay with it even if it moved into CP from the supervision of the Chaplain Branch.

Edited: my former CAP Chaplain friend didn't leave due to being upset with CISM, CAP or anything else!  He had to take a new job and that left insufficient time for CAP, at least for now.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I've had to deal with far too many Chaplains who tried to use their position as an avenue towards evangelizing / recruiting
members, or who injected doctrine and opinion into MLO/CDI sessions and similar.    I've worked with a couple
who were awesome as both members and clergy, but far to many with a high noise-to-signal ratio.

The Chaplain I mentioned in another posting on this thread, a Presbyterian minister (who was also Observer and I believe GT qualified) had a conversation about this once, about 15 years ago.

He said, "as a Chaplain, I am required to meet people where they are spiritually.  I am to be available to anyone, regardless of religion, including atheists and agnostics."

I was once counselled by an AF Chaplain who was a Jewish Rabbi.  I am not Jewish, so I was sceptical how he would relate but this particular "Skypilot" probably saved my life, and that's no exaggeration.

The best Chaplains I ever served with understood that (Always & Everyone) whilst the worst did not, and should never have found their way into the Service.  The mediocre struggled to say that effectively and should have have sharpened up or gone away, to be honest!

[Brit_in_CAP]

Let me, if I may, offer a reflection from my homeland.

I was an Air Training Corps (ATC) Cadet and I stayed involved with the ATC during my regular duty time.

The ATC also has Chaplains but not a Chaplain Corps.

The chaplains are all classed as 'Honorary', don't wear a uniform even if they retired regular military in some way, and are classed as Civilian Instructors (CI); a squadron or flight is not mandated to have one.

They can come from any church that can 'send' chaplains to the regular military and need only be approved by their church as a suitable person for working with teenagers (there isn't a Senior Member program in the ATC).  The Wing is responsible for arranging an interview, as they are for any CI, for administering the application process and the background check.

As a result, many squadrons are able to make us of 'lay ministers' who've completed their local training course (that would have been me if we'd stayed in the UK).

The end result is a very effective program that is easy to administer and is very low cost to the organization.  WIWAC most chaplains were Anglican minsters who enjoyed their week of Encampment, living in the Officer's Mess and were rarely seen.  Today, it's very different, thankfully, but they still have to work with everyone who shows up and not just their little flock!

I think that the Army Cadet Corps has a structure based on the Royal Army Chaplain Branch and I have no idea how the Sea Cadet Corps works.

Personally, as a CDI and being 'part' of the Chaplain Branch I think that the connection to Ma Blue is overdone.  Some of our Chaplains loose focus on that and, as has been said elsewhere, spend too much time helping out the regular military or see it as an opportunity to bring their church to a captive audience.

Caveat Emptor - you don't have to take on board every person who applies to be a Chaplain.

It would be easier without the need to match the AF requirements and we'd stand a better chance (YMMV) of getting chaplains who would be a 'force multiplier' for CAP.  Like I said, my opinion and YMMV.

[Private Investigator]

An amusing incident I will likely never forget is when a guy showed up to one of my squadrons and said he was an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, which a lot of draft-dodgers got "ordained" into to try to get out of serving in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church

He may have been sincere - that is not for me to judge.  But he showed up at the squadron meeting with this filthy clerical collar that looked like it had not been washed since the Great Flood and his "credentials."  The squadron CC took me aside (I was one of the only unit members really involved with a church) and asked me if he was legit or a couple beers short of a six-pack.  I told him I didn't know, but I suggested that the CC direct him to the Wing Chaplain.  He did, and we never heard from the guy again.

I glad you mentioned ULC types. Lot of them get that in prison so when you are on parole you get additional 'freebies' from your State and the Fed. That pops up a lot when I interview parolees   

[Flying Pig]

I knew parolee who was running around doing biker weddings and charging $100 a pop.  Dude had a good little side gig   He was the local biker pastor and was accepted in and around all the other rival "clubs" because he was a "pastor".  Dude spends his life as a biker, selling dope and doin' crime.... but goes to prison, pays $25 or whatever it is for his card and suddenly he's a man of the cloth    But apparently God told him it was OK to still stay in the life so he could relate to his brothers.... ie. Still be a dirtbag.  But you know...... just so he could relate. :clap:

[Private Investigator]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

[Private Investigator]

I knew parolee who was running around doing biker weddings and charging $100 a pop.  Dude had a good little side gig   He was the local biker pastor and was accepted in and around all the other rival "clubs" because he was a "pastor".  Dude spends his life as a biker, selling dope and doin' crime.... but goes to prison, pays $25 or whatever it is for his card and suddenly he's a man of the cloth    But apparently God told him it was OK to still stay in the life so he could relate to his brothers.... ie. Still be a dirtbag.  But you know...... just so he could relate. :clap:

Flying Pig, I got an ideal who you are talking about in NorCal. Stay safe my friend