CAP Tirades

[JeffDG]

A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.

I have a system that ICs have access to a web page where they can send E-mail, voice and SMS based on qualification and unit membership very quickly.  Come to the National Conference to see it!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?

I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called.  Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)

AFRCC doesn't need someone calling in. They get a ping, IIRC, get a second ping, then start calling us.

[grunt82abn]

I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?

I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called.  Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)

Hopefully those farmers aren't from Wisconsin. We had a plane go down and was witnessed, but no one said anything until the Sheriffs department was out looking the next day. Before anyone asks, it was an experimental without a serviceable ELT

[grunt82abn]

A wing/unit activation policy helps send out warnings to members of a possible activation. These days it is easier than ever to set up a distribution list that will fire off a short message via SMS, IM and email at the same time with the pertinent data to get a person moving.

I have a system that ICs have access to a web page where they can send E-mail, voice and SMS based on qualification and unit membership very quickly.  Come to the National Conference to see it!

I wish I could go to the NC

[JeffDG]

I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?

I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called.  Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)

Hopefully those farmers aren't from Wisconsin. We had a plane go down and was witnessed, but no one said anything until the Sheriffs department was out looking the next day. Before anyone asks, it was an experimental without a serviceable ELT

A couple years ago, a plane crashed in the middle of Nashville International Airport, and nobody noticed until morning.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm thinking not our spool up time, but the AFRCC call time. From the moment they get the first ping, how soon do they call us?

I would think that in many cases the biggest delay might be from the time that a farmer calls 911 to say he saw a plane looking like it was going down behind the hills in the distance .... to the time AFRCC actually gets called.  Here in my area the first responders would be police and sheriff helicopters. I do not have a clue as to how long they search before calling up AFRCC(?)

AFRCC doesn't need someone calling in. They get a ping, IIRC, get a second ping, then start calling us.

Except of both true distress missions our wing had last year, neither had a functioning ELT (that got heard anyways). They were both family/friend overdue activations.

And they happened pretty quickly, within a couple/few hours from the "I haven't seen John" call I'd say. But certainly not minutes.

[Al Sayre]

Actually, the AFRCC calls the agency designated by the state MOU.  In some states that is CAP in others, it may be the EMA, local sheriff, Highway patrol etc.  If the agency decides they want CAP to help, then we get a call.  In some states the Agency in charge has already told AFRCC "call CAP for missing aircraft or beacons", BUT that does NOT make CAP the agency in charge of the search, it still falls under the MOU.

In the event of a reported missing aircraft without a beacon hit, they will first initiate an "ALLNOT" which notifies all of the airports, towers, and center controllers along the projected or reported route to do a (ramp) check for the missing aircraft.  Once that's been done, and the aircraft isn't located, then they notify the  agency designated by the state MOU, and the chain proceeds as noted before.  That's why we seldom get a call before midnight, it takes time to progress through the required actions. 

Once CAP is notified, (in our wing) it usually takes 1-2 hours for the IC to round up a crew and get them airborne, depending on what area of the state the incident is in.  Less in urban areas where people live close by the airport, a bit longer in rural areas where they have to drive a bit to get to the aircraft.

[sardak]

As Al said, AFRCC calls the agency which the state MOU says to call, which in most cases is not CAP, as discussed in this thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=20949.msg38468

As for the procedure, the ALNOT (Alert Notice) is created by the FAA, which sends a copy to RCC. The process is explained in FAA Order JO 7110.10.

First, FAA decides if a plane is overdue or missing. For a plane on a flight plan, they have 30 minutes from last report before it's considered overdue. For a plane not on a flight plan, it's considered overdue with a report from a "reliable source," at least one hour after the plane was due at its destination. In all cases, additional evidence may speed up the process.

Next step is a comm check to other FAA facilities asking about the aircraft. This is allowed to take up to 30 minutes (total time now 1 hour to 1.5 hours).

If plane still not found, an Information Request (INREQ) is initiated. A max of 1 hour is given for this to be completed (elapsed time 2 to 2.5 hours).

If the INREQ is negative, an ALNOT is issued, distribution includes RCC. FAA is supposed to call RCC within 10 minutes to verify receipt. Again, FAA has an hour to resolve this. They notify RCC at resolution or at the end of an hour if no resolution (ET now 3 to 3.5 hrs).

As for AFRCC, they open up an incident upon receipt of an ALNOT, Sarsat hit or other notification of possible distress. They have up to two hours to resolve it before going to mission. Again, they can go to mission sooner if other information is available.

In 2014, AFRCC had 6,603 incidents which resulted in 654 missions. In 2008, the last year before Sarsat stopped listening to 121.5, they had 7,595 incidents resulting in 2,344 missions. These are all incidents and missions, not just missing aircraft and beacons.

Missing aircraft missions - 70 in 2008 and 49 in 2014.
Beacon missions - 2,034 in 2008 and 380 in 2014.

Mike

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

"We value all our 'volunteer professionals.'"

"We comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act."

And your mum sells whelks in Hull.

[Eclipse]

Cyborg, seriously, let it go.  Find something better to do with your time then agonizing over an organization
that your personal circumstances did not allow you to participate with any more.

You've had PM conversations with any number of us over the recent couple of years, and they are as
full of excuses as they are legitimate reasons.

CAP is >not< "do whatever you feel like, whenever you feel like it, if you're up to it that day and
don't have 12 other things conflicting, 14 excuses why "I can't" and a chip on your shoulder about the
world of CAP oppressing you, specifically, and with a directed action."

CAP squadrons and other echelons are not social clubs designed for you to feel like you belong somewhere. First and
foremost they have work to do and a mission to accomplish.  If reasonable accommodations can be made for
personal circumstances, they should be, but if you're not there, you're not there, and to expect to be promoted,
decorated, or otherwise appreciated at the same level as those pulling the rope every week because "back in the day reasons",
that's not fair to anyone in the conversation.

Much of the situation you found yourself in was self-imposed, either though voluntary separation from the organization,
mistakes you made upon rejoining, a litany of personal issues CAP has no control or or influence with that
precludes you from participation, or this ongoing idea you present that you are too shy to toot your own horn or ask
for deserved accolades (but not too shy to complain publicly about not getting them).

You feel you deserved promotion, and are being discriminated against, yet can't be bothered to take the steps
necessary to close the actual issue (i.e. file a complaint).  It's one or the other, not both.

A number of us offered reasonable suggestions as to how you could have continued to serve CAP without being present
for regular meetings, those were generally dismissed out of hand. 

Bottom line, there is no organization of any scale or value in the world in which politics don't play a role, and
"what have you done for me lately" isn't a factor in promotions, duty assignments, or even getting invited for coffee.

Either you're holding up a corner or you aren't, and if life circumstance means you can't do that anymore, fill a shadowbox
and MOVE ON.  There's no dishonor in accepting the inevitable we all have to face eventually.

Deluding yourself about the reality of the situation is painful for us to watch, won't fix the situation, and sullies your good memories
of CAP from the past.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Your opinion is noted, if inaccurate, as well as your description of "excuses."

It does not mean that your opinion is objective truth, any more than mine is...and it wasn't just about promotion, in the end.  When you receive a list of "10 Things I Hate About You" from your CC (and I still have it), what more can one do?

I did ask for the "deserved accolades."

I submitted the suggestions for participation (ie telecommuting) to my CC.  He disallowed them.  I have on-paper proof.

I did file a complaint and was told nothing could be done.

If you don't like my opinions, you can hit the "ignore" or petition to have me banished from the board.

The fact is that CAP does not treat all its members equally, and a lot of that is down to a commander's discretion.

I would say that YOUR black-and-white, "either-you-is-or-you-ain't" mentality is one of the things wrong with CAP...even though others on here may share them does not make them truth.

I am not going to paint myself as completely innocent...but no way am I going to shoulder all the blame, as you seem to be attempting to try to get me to do.

Here I stand.

[Eclipse]

I submitted the suggestions for participation (ie telecommuting) to my CC.  He disallowed them.  I have on-paper proof.

Telecommuting at the squadron level is / was not the only suggestion that was made by a long shot.

I did file a complaint and was told nothing could be done.

That's not how properly filed complaints work.  Which means you didn't actually file one properly, didn't hold the organization
to the proper procedures, or didn't actually have grounds for a sustainable complaint, which would have to have been based
on the discrimination you allege here on a regular basis.

The fact is that CAP does not treat all its members equally, and a lot of that is down to a commander's discretion.

The fact is that not all member contribute equally, and want to hold the organization responsible for their failings or
personal circumstances, or get frustrated when the organization has to move forward despite their not being able to come along for the ride.
BTDT myself.  In the end, it was change / adapt or find other things to do with my free time.

I would say that YOUR black-and-white, "either-you-is-or-you-ain't" mentality is one of the things wrong with CAP...even though others on here may share them does not make them truth.

We only have the situation as you have presented it here, evolving to fit the narrative as you filled in the blanks.

Some people accept reality and adapt, others complain they wish reality was different, either way, reality has no
interest in the conversation.  It simply "is".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Unless I am convinced by CAP walking its talk or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the regs alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by conscience, experience and a reading of the regs consonant with the experience of a Master rated Administrative Officer who does know how to file complaints through the chain. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.

Rough paraphrase of Martin Luther, 1521

[THRAWN]

Jay-zus! Again? Still? I had a girlfriend in high school that was like this. We'd break up, she said she'd never speak to me again, and a day/week/month later, we're back in the saddle again, so to speak. CAP ain't for you, shipmate. Go to a random password generator, make a 50 character strong, change your CAPTalk password to it, and don't write it down....

[abdsp51]

Bang-a-rang..... Oh wait I meant boomerang... 

[grunt82abn]

Is this what is considered beating a dead horse?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Is this what is considered beating a dead horse?

It was the last 3-4 go arounds.

[lordmonar]

Unless I am convinced by CAP walking its talk or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the regs alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by conscience, experience and a reading of the regs consonant with the experience of a Master rated Administrative Officer who does know how to file complaints through the chain. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.

Rough paraphrase of Martin Luther, 1521

Okay....once again for the record.

Join CAP.
Do your time.  Jump through the required hoops.
Get Promoted.

The boat to fix any past injustices has sailed and nothing can be done about it.

If the solution to getting what you want is not acceptable........please.....just go away.  I know it is hard for you....and I am not trying to be mean.....but really......you are not doing yourself, CAP or CAPTALK any good beating this dead and buried horse.

[Fubar]

Actually, the AFRCC calls the agency designated by the state MOU.

Do the MOUs limit who can call the AFRCC? While the MOU may tell the AFRCC who to call, I've wondered if the AFRCC can only accept calls from specific agencies.

[lordmonar]

Actually, the AFRCC calls the agency designated by the state MOU.

Do the MOUs limit who can call the AFRCC? While the MOU may tell the AFRCC who to call, I've wondered if the AFRCC can only accept calls from specific agencies.

Nope.  Any individual and/or agency may call AFRCC and request assistance.   Having an MOU before hand makes things easier....but it is not required.