In defense of wannabes

[Dragoon]

My definition of a wannabe, especially where CAP is concerned is the individual who either couldn't get into the military, or wants to relive his glory days, and tries to mold a unit into his version of what a military unit should be like.  This individual accepts only the input that coincides with his "vision" and anyone else just doesn't understand "how it ought to be."

Good insight there.

Of course, there are some folks who honestly want to change a unit to make it better, and see some value in a more military model.  Within reason, that can be a good thing.  For example, we mandated a single uniform and held formations.  To some seniors, this might seem overboard.  But morale and attendance actually improved.

On the other hand, marching seniors around the parking lot all meeting, teaching cadets about emplacing claymore mines, or getting everyone to chant "Blood Makes the Grass Grow!" when they fall out are probably warning signs......

I think the key factor in wannabee-ism is a focus on self - how can I look cooler?  How can I get more respect?  How can I get men to fear me and chicks to dig me?  Teenage kinda stuff.

As opposed to "how can we be better?"

[Stonewall]

For example, we mandated a single uniform and held formations.  To some seniors, this might seem overboard.  But morale and attendance actually improved.

+1 on this ^^^^

Lots of folks may consider this a touch on the "wannabe" side, but I definitely advocate such action.  I speak from 100% experience on this one and can attest to the true increase in morale and attendance.

No, brother.  That is not something a wannabe would do, but I don't think you have identity issues so it's a non-issue.

[CAPLAW]

I have been called a wannabe by people before."its not the real military" my response to this one is that it is indeed the real Civil Air Patrol.  Yes we do have have wannabes in this organization, however I have meet real wannabees in the military like a guy who was a supply clerk bit told everybody he was in  special forces.  I have a guy on my fire department who was a green beret but it was discovered he is one of those clothing sales commandos. The issue of wannabes are every where, I am a Vol, fire fighter and people tell me that I'm not with the real fire department.  I told a guy well its a real fire truck with real water.  I have been to fire school I just not choose to do it as a career.  I am a cop and in the blue world some cops refere to correctional officers and security guards as wannabes.  I always speak up about this defend CO and SO types.  So I guess there is wannabes theme in every type of profession,  A few bad apples give us all a bad name.  In CAP I consider myself a non paid professional and not a wannabe.

[Hoser]

Stonewall's description of wannabes has a technical term: "Gandies" or "Gandy" in the singular. Despite doing the Coast Guard thing, I guess I am one too, I wannabe able to contribute in a constructive way. In that context, we all are wannabes.

[DogCollar]

I think this has been one of the best threads that I have EVER read!!  It just goes to show that there is ONE real antidote to the "poser" wannabe!!  That antidote is a sense of humility!  By that I mean (and what I've learned from reading this thread), is that it is more important for me to  take the mission of CAP more seriously than I take "myself!"

It reminds my of my father, a WWII Navy vet, who lived thorugh a lot of naval battles in the pacific theatre.  He NEVER glorified what he did, or any of his shipmates...they were doing there job.  He will tell you that the best thing he did in the navy was to run a base "pool hall" in the Philippines after liberation!  To this day (and I'm very fortunate to still have him around at 83 years-old), he doesn't think HE did anything special...however, he is very proud to have served his country in a time of need.

[ddelaney103]

One good gauge of a real BTDT is their stories.  Rare are the "There I was, knee deep in hand grenade pins..." stories, while the most repeated are the funny or bizarre one.

My friend the SEAL used to repeat stories like when the Corpsman came by while he was lying on the TARMAC at Grenada and said, "This one's a deader" or the one where someone dropped an M203 round beneath the deck grating and they were trying to grab it while also figuring out how many rotations it had to roll before it was armed.

As the Padre said, a reluctance to blow one's own horn tends to mark the real deal.

[Stonewall]

Maybe we should start a thread or sticky of how to identify a wannabe or phony.  I know, it's not really CAP related.

One thing I que in on is "name dropping".  My buddy is the biggest wannabe and phony.  Yes, a long-term 20-year friend and fellow former cadet, now fellow cop.  Long story.  That boy drops huge names in the SOCOM community.  Larry Vickers, Craige Maxim,  and tohers I don't know off the top of my head.  He does this because the untrained "phony buster" thinks it adds validity to their stories so they must be true.

He also tries to tie me into his fantasy when he says things like "well, door kickers like us are true warriors and know moreso about leadership than these pogues we work with....."

Yes, this is one of my best friends.  I even tell him stories of a few phonies I've come in contact with or busted.  He's so bold with it that it shocks me.  I have a plan though.  In February we're taking a trip together to DC and I'm going to use the drive up there to have a friendly heart-to-heart with him.  Letting him know that he should be proud of what he's done and where he came from.  It's so sad really, I feel sorry for him.

Ironically, as a cadet wannabe, the same buddy above and I had a young 20-something show up to our squadron claiming all sorts of special ops experience.  Guess he thought he could get one over on a bunch of kids (cadets).  He couldn't even tell us where Ft. Bragg is (home of Army Special Ops), nor could he describe basic infantry skills.  So we got our chaplain, who was, at the time, the real deal.  He happened to be the chaplain for the 20th SFG(A) ARNG unit out at Camp Blanding.  He politely explained to the young man that he had no place in CAP.  Hooah?  Hooah.

[pixelwonk]

Maybe we should start a thread or sticky of how to identify a wannabe or phony.  I know, it's not really CAP related.

Better yet, start one about how to effectively deal with these types.  If it's dignified and well, good, maybe it will be stickied.

[flyguy06]

I have been called a wannabe by people before."its not the real military" my response to this one is that it is indeed the real Civil Air Patrol.  Yes we do have have wannabes in this organization, however I have meet real wannabees in the military like a guy who was a supply clerk bit told everybody he was in  special forces.  I have a guy on my fire department who was a green beret but it was discovered he is one of those clothing sales commandos. The issue of wannabes are every where, I am a Vol, fire fighter and people tell me that I'm not with the real fire department.  I told a guy well its a real fire truck with real water.  I have been to fire school I just not choose to do it as a career.  I am a cop and in the blue world some cops refere to correctional officers and security guards as wannabes.  I always speak up about this defend CO and SO types.  So I guess there is wannabes theme in every type of profession,  A few bad apples give us all a bad name.  In CAP I consider myself a non paid professional and not a wannabe.

Actually you could be a supply clerk in Special Forces. When people think of SF they immediately think of Green Berets and the operators. But remember that Special Forces is a military unit like any other and they like other units have support jobs too. I met a female captain with a Special Forces patch ( I said patch, not Tab) and I asked her what she did. She was the Medical Officer for a Special Forces Group. SF Groups have medical, logistics, and signal jobs that do not require the whole Green Beret thing. I have actually myself been thinking of joining this National Guard SF unit in Alabama. But I am too old to be running through the woods doing all that hooah stuff. So I thought about branch transferring to Quartermaster and being a Logistics Officer in a SF unit. Hey I dontget to wear a Green beret. I would wear a Maroon one, but I still get to go to Rigger school, jumpmaster school and and a few others. So, its still a good bit of adventure

[Stonewall]

Never too old, FlyGuy.  My division commander in the 29th ID went to Ranger School as a Colonel at age 50 I think.  Had a guy at my AFRES PJ unit that started at age 38 and finished PJ pipeline at 40.

Ah yes, the support guys.  Many of the support guys are the ones whom I've had trouble with.  In fact, a huge phony bust that I had was an IT support guy from SEAL Team 3.  Since he was there he knew all the ins and outs of the Team.  Next thing you know, he's sportin' a SEAL trident, etc.  He got slammed big time, lost his TS and everything.

Not saying all or even a majority of SF support guys are like this, just sayin' I've had several support folks try to come off as actualy operators due to their intimate knowledge of the units they support.

[BillB]

You can't always trust the information on a DD-214. At the time I was discharged from the Army reserve to transfer to USAF, the regulation was the Good Conduct medal was awarded on discharge if less than 3 years of good conduct. The Air Force had the same regulation (both have since been changed) on the award of the AF Good Conduct. My aircrew wings were on Squadron orders after being assigned as an aircraft radio operation flying between maxwell and Pusan, Korea twice monthly. None of these shows up on my DD-214, in fact the National Defense medal doesn't even show up.
Often Admin is rushed doing a lew of dd-214's and items get overlooked. Mine also shows E-3 on enlistment and discharge, but doesn't show temporary grade awarded. Reservists only got temporary promotions during active duty during this period I was told. but did get the higher grade pay.

[flyguy06]

Never too old, FlyGuy.  My division commander in the 29th ID went to Ranger School as a Colonel at age 50 I think.  Had a guy at my AFRES PJ unit that started at age 38 and finished PJ pipeline at 40.

Ah yes, the support guys.  Many of the support guys are the ones whom I've had trouble with.  In fact, a huge phony bust that I had was an IT support guy from SEAL Team 3.  Since he was there he knew all the ins and outs of the Team.  Next thing you know, he's sportin' a SEAL trident, etc.  He got slammed big time, lost his TS and everything.

Not saying all or even a majority of SF support guys are like this, just sayin' I've had several support folks try to come off as actualy operators due to their intimate knowledge of the units they support.

Yeah, at 39 i guess thatmay not be too old, but I dont run like I did when I was 20 something.

Support guys canrelish stories. Just gotta be careful what you listen too.

[RiverAux]

Since we've wandered a bit, I want to make it clear that I'm not defending anyone who lies about their military record (or lack thereof).  I'm defending the guys who honestly have good intentions but who happen to enjoy or don't actualy enjoy, but think that the military aspects of CAP are important for various reasons. 

[Monty]

Well, I sat on this topic for a few days, so as to make sure of exactly what I'd like to contribute.

First off, I have a bit of a different interpretation of "wannabe" – I consider this to be somebody who's trying to be something they're not – namely in our situation, trying to play Air Force Officer when in actuality, the wannabe doesn't know the first thing about much of an Air Force Officer's life, outside of how one can earn a commission and how awesome it must be to be saluted all day.   

From my personal vantage, there seems to be an inordinate collective of wannabe seniors who try to pass themselves off as Air Force officers through antics of the following (thought not limited to the following) –

1.  NOT REALIZING that every public antic labels us all...especially when individual personality quirks go unchecked (many of which are easily kept in check with the UCMJ for an Air Force member but of course, not applicable to "Sammy Sass-off CAP.")
2.  Wearing an Air Force suit, but conducting themselves as an unchecked, "faucet" disciplined, Mr. Spock (yes, even AF officers have joviality in their professional demeanor).
3.  Wearing an Air Force suit, but acting the role of the Army/Marine/Navy member
4.  Placing more emphasis upon the armed forces than the Civil Air Patrol (the name emblazoned upon every senior's chest in some fashion).  For example, the likelihood of a "wannabe" in telling me intricate details of the life story of H. Norman Schwarzkopf is likely greater than a Civil Air Patrol member telling me the life story – with as many details – of Gill Robb Wilson.  CNN's fault?  Or rather, Schwarzkopf was a military general, and that's cooler than a founder of CAP (which ironically, the CAP member is part of the latter's contributions).  To me personally, that sits about as well as a child saying, "Dad, I don't care about your life - my neighbor's is much cooler."
5.  Rejecting a CAP culture and in lieu thereof, borrows what they think is what the armed forces do, and then try to justify such choices when evidence more than suggests that even their interpretations of those they wish to emulate (US Air Force officers) is wrong or outdated.
6.  Failure to progress academically, beyond that which the "wannabe" needs for promotion AND...resting on the laurels of marking check boxes vs. incorporating the training CAP members learn.  CAP members claim that Region Staff College and National Staff College are poor comparisons to their armed forces equivalents (e.g., SOS, ACSC, AWC)...yet few who complain opt to take these courses via correspondence methods.  (Failure to progress is sufficient grounds to deep six an Air Force officer...but without such things to fear in CAP, it's not an issue.  Or is it?)
7.  Too much infatuation with trivialities.  All things are good in moderation; however, "horseplay is the direct result of boredom" as the saying goes.  Don't have anything better to do than take pictures of yourself wearing a service cap?  Wow...wonder how many of the "real" AF Officers are doing that.  (Just a gentle nudge.)
8.  Picking and choosing.  These folks play the AF card when it looks great, but back away into "CAP Inc." when it's easier.  CAP Captain So-and-so demands (overtly or covertly) to be addressed as such...however, he will lip off to those higher in "grade" (even in forums) when he gets his ego busted.
9.  Even the most seasoned of officers know when their time has come (one way or another), especially when their flexibility has peaked and long-since ebbed.  In CAP?  Nope!  "By God, this is how we did it in 1962 and that's how it needs to be in 2012."  Wow.  Attrition is an arguably good thing; the advantages of which certainly include maintaining a flexible, able-minded force.  Worried about losing a bygone era's skill set at the behest of supplementing the new data and training with the old?  For shame in the worrying; if that wasn't passed down, see point #6.

And lastly....

10.  Failure to recognize what CAP really is.  Many seem to see CAP as an extension of their one-hitch in the service, or an ability to make up for what wasn't chosen (or available) to them in the past.  No issues with the latter; that's commendable.  Problems arise when folks fail to be proud of their association with CAP first and the USAF second.  Perhaps the USAF association is paramount to many folks' self-esteem for some sense of legitimacy.  But when we focus so doggone much on the clothes instead of developing ourselves and our own camaraderie with each other, then we FAIL to learn how to interact with each others as CAP members and instead, pass ourselves off as "wannabes" to each other; puffed out chests and the desire to discuss why our specialty badges don't look like AFSC badges vs. learning how to interact as CIVIL colleagues, friends, and a cog in the big wheel of community service.

For some, the blanket (an AF-type suit and the bling we can glue on it) with which many wrap themselves is done so with odd intentions.  It gets some through the day, and as one person asked originally, "Why does it matter to CAP one way or another if some members are only interested in ribbon and rank? "  Of course it doesn't matter...unless the "wannabes" out there wish to see that many of their antics really typecast the rest of us - and when compared to the "real" version, perpetuate a great divide between how those we somehow wish to emulate do things.....and our loving minority of wannabes.

IN THE END...

I wore the AF uniform for 8 years.  I don't need to wear it with different colored badges to know my place or with whom I'm associated.  I'm a Civil Air Patrol senior member who doesn't need to seek legitimacy by calling myself "Air Force Auxiliary Major Monty" (with "micro" font on the word "Auxiliary").  I don't need to flash my awards and decorations, or my grade, or my resume from the Air Force or the Civil Air Patrol.  I wish to be judged by the work I do for the organization to which I belong - and that's good enough for me.  And lastly, I wish to be able to keep myself flexible, objective, and able to critically analyze any situation; even when the factual results counter my personal druthers.  The day I cannot do any of these things is the day that Monty will either not renew or put in retirement papers for CAP.

All my personal opinion; which is worth as much as anyone's.  :-)

[flyguy06]

Well, I sat on this topic for a few days, so as to make sure of exactly what I'd like to contribute.

First off, I have a bit of a different interpretation of "wannabe" – I consider this to be somebody who's trying to be something they're not – namely in our situation, trying to play Air Force Officer when in actuality, the wannabe doesn't know the first thing about much of an Air Force Officer's life, outside of how one can earn a commission and how awesome it must be to be saluted all day.   

From my personal vantage, there seems to be an inordinate collective of wannabe seniors who try to pass themselves off as Air Force officers through antics of the following (thought not limited to the following) –

1.  NOT REALIZING that every public antic labels us all...especially when individual personality quirks go unchecked (many of which are easily kept in check with the UCMJ for an Air Force member but of course, not applicable to "Sammy Sass-off CAP.")
2.  Wearing an Air Force suit, but conducting themselves as an unchecked, "faucet" disciplined, Mr. Spock (yes, even AF officers have joviality in their professional demeanor).
3.  Wearing an Air Force suit, but acting the role of the Army/Marine/Navy member
4.  Placing more emphasis upon the armed forces than the Civil Air Patrol (the name emblazoned upon every senior's chest in some fashion).  For example, the likelihood of a "wannabe" in telling me intricate details of the life story of H. Norman Schwarzkopf is likely greater than a Civil Air Patrol member telling me the life story – with as many details – of Gill Robb Wilson.  CNN's fault?  Or rather, Schwarzkopf was a military general, and that's cooler than a founder of CAP (which ironically, the CAP member is part of the latter's contributions).  To me personally, that sits about as well as a child saying, "Dad, I don't care about your life - my neighbor's is much cooler."
5.  Rejecting a CAP culture and in lieu thereof, borrows what they think is what the armed forces do, and then try to justify such choices when evidence more than suggests that even their interpretations of those they wish to emulate (US Air Force officers) is wrong or outdated.
6.  Failure to progress academically, beyond that which the "wannabe" needs for promotion AND...resting on the laurels of marking check boxes vs. incorporating the training CAP members learn.  CAP members claim that Region Staff College and National Staff College are poor comparisons to their armed forces equivalents (e.g., SOS, ACSC, AWC)...yet few who complain opt to take these courses via correspondence methods.  (Failure to progress is sufficient grounds to deep six an Air Force officer...but without such things to fear in CAP, it's not an issue.  Or is it?)
7.  Too much infatuation with trivialities.  All things are good in moderation; however, "horseplay is the direct result of boredom" as the saying goes.  Don't have anything better to do than take pictures of yourself wearing a service cap?  Wow...wonder how many of the "real" AF Officers are doing that.  (Just a gentle nudge.)
8.  Picking and choosing.  These folks play the AF card when it looks great, but back away into "CAP Inc." when it's easier.  CAP Captain So-and-so demands (overtly or covertly) to be addressed as such...however, he will lip off to those higher in "grade" (even in forums) when he gets his ego busted.
9.  Even the most seasoned of officers know when their time has come (one way or another), especially when their flexibility has peaked and long-since ebbed.  In CAP?  Nope!  "By God, this is how we did it in 1962 and that's how it needs to be in 2012."  Wow.  Attrition is an arguably good thing; the advantages of which certainly include maintaining a flexible, able-minded force.  Worried about losing a bygone era's skill set at the behest of supplementing the new data and training with the old?  For shame in the worrying; if that wasn't passed down, see point #6.

And lastly....

10.  Failure to recognize what CAP really is.  Many seem to see CAP as an extension of their one-hitch in the service, or an ability to make up for what wasn't chosen (or available) to them in the past.  No issues with the latter; that's commendable.  Problems arise when folks fail to be proud of their association with CAP first and the USAF second.  Perhaps the USAF association is paramount to many folks' self-esteem for some sense of legitimacy.  But when we focus so doggone much on the clothes instead of developing ourselves and our own camaraderie with each other, then we FAIL to learn how to interact with each others as CAP members and instead, pass ourselves off as "wannabes" to each other; puffed out chests and the desire to discuss why our specialty badges don't look like AFSC badges vs. learning how to interact as CIVIL colleagues, friends, and a cog in the big wheel of community service.

For some, the blanket (an AF-type suit and the bling we can glue on it) with which many wrap themselves is done so with odd intentions.  It gets some through the day, and as one person asked originally, "Why does it matter to CAP one way or another if some members are only interested in ribbon and rank? "  Of course it doesn't matter...unless the "wannabes" out there wish to see that many of their antics really typecast the rest of us - and when compared to the "real" version, perpetuate a great divide between how those we somehow wish to emulate do things.....and our loving minority of wannabes.

IN THE END...

I wore the AF uniform for 8 years.  I don't need to wear it with different colored badges to know my place or with whom I'm associated.  I'm a Civil Air Patrol senior member who doesn't need to seek legitimacy by calling myself "Air Force Auxiliary Major Monty" (with "micro" font on the word "Auxiliary").  I don't need to flash my awards and decorations, or my grade, or my resume from the Air Force or the Civil Air Patrol.  I wish to be judged by the work I do for the organization to which I belong - and that's good enough for me.  And lastly, I wish to be able to keep myself flexible, objective, and able to critically analyze any situation; even when the factual results counter my personal druthers.  The day I cannot do any of these things is the day that Monty will either not renew or put in retirement papers for CAP.

All my personal opinion; which is worth as much as anyone's.  :-)

So where you caterogize me? I look at it as playing AF officer sincde I could not be a military pilot I look at CAP as doing it. Is that bad?  I think CAP to a certain way is the USAF. But in others ways I think its not.

[Monty]

So where you caterogize me? I look at it as playing AF officer sincde I could not be a military pilot I look at CAP as doing it. Is that bad?  I think CAP to a certain way is the USAF. But in others ways I think its not.

I don't know you from Adam (or Eve, I guess you might be female too) but bear in mind I'm no authority on the matter...  The "whole person concept" applies as well and for that, being an anonymous poster makes it hard to necessarily categorize a person (if that's even possible to do, legitimately).

My "David Letterman Top 10" is by no means a complete list. 

[flyguy06]

So where you caterogize me? I look at it as playing AF officer sincde I could not be a military pilot I look at CAP as doing it. Is that bad?  I think CAP to a certain way is the USAF. But in others ways I think its not.

I don't know you from Adam (or Eve, I guess you might be female too) but bear in mind I'm no authority on the matter...  The "whole person concept" applies as well and for that, being an anonymous poster makes it hard to necessarily categorize a person (if that's even possible to do, legitimately).

My "David Letterman Top 10" is by no means a complete list. 

Being an anonymous posters has nothing to do with it. If you knew my name you still wouldnt know "me"

But you aid a wannabe is somebody trying to be something they are not, namely an Air Force Officer. I said earlier that I look at CAP as being the closets I will ever get to being an Air Force Officer. So, am I a wanna be?

[Dragoon]

Depends - is it because you wanna fly, or because you hope your friends will be impressed with your wings and your flightsuit?

Would you quit CAP if USAF put us in a non-USAF uniform?

Are you in CAP to serve, or to feel like a warrior?

In other words, are you focused on the feeling that comes from the work, or the feeling that comes from the costume?

[RiverAux]

In other words, are you focused on the feeling that comes from the work, or the feeling that comes from the costume?

Does it matter?  If someone is getting the job done without being a jerk (which can be a result of many things), then what do we care what their motivation is?  Its the results that counts in my book.  If a guy's sole reason to be in CAP is to get to wear an AF-style uniform while flying a plane, thats just fine by me so long as he answers the phone when I'm looking for a crew. 

This was one of the main points I was trying to make. 

[Briski]

It's rare for me to come out of the CP-related forums, but someone finally brought my attention to this thread. So I guess I'll say somethin'.

Personally, I don't give a crap who you are or what image you try to project, as long as you're getting the job done. I do, however, have an issue is with people who get so caught up in their egos that they start to hinder mission accomplishment.

I've seen this more in the CP than anywhere else, though. Mainly with officers who get so caught up in looking hardkewl (Help Received: Monty) that they focus more on making themselves look good than they do on overseeing the proper leadership training of our cadets.

It has nothing to do with prior service vs. non-prior service. I've met plenty of prior service guys who I seriously wondered how they made it through their stint on AD without getting fragged by their own men.

However, very few of the people on the list of SMs who impacted my growth and development the most WIWAC ever wore any uniform but the CAP uniform.

And guess what? Now that I'm a CP SM, they're still the ones I look to.

And guess what else? As an commission-seeking ROTC cadet and future butter bar, I've learned a whole heck of a lot more about what it means to be an officer from a couple of CAP SMs who never served a day in the RealMilitary than I have from the vast majority of officers I've been taught by in 2.5 years of ROTC.

It doesn't matter what uniform you wear. Oh heck, I'll even go as far to say it doesn't matter whether you wear the AF-style CAP uniform or the alternates. Because frankly, some of the most professional CAP officers I have ever had the honor of working with were professional enough to adhere to the regulations and wear the alternates.

I know people who would put any AF-style clad officer to shame with the way they wear their alternates, because it's a matter of professionalism to them to wear their uniforms with pride and in accordance with regulations regardless of what color it is.

Anyway... again, as long as people are not so closely tied to their egos as to present a problem, I honestly don't care. I might roll my eyes from time to time, but as long as we're still gettin' the job done to the best of our abilities, we're all harmless, right?