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Anonymity

Started by Skyray, October 08, 2007, 12:23:16 AM

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Hawk200

I tend to remain anonymous because I was supposed to have been terminated once before. The reasons were bogus, and fortunately, my immediate commander had the integrity not to completely end something I have found a great deal of satisfaction in. I turned in my card, but he kept it, and let my membership expire.

When a unit formed locally, I went and spoke to the commander, and was completely upfront about what happened. He was actually rather angry with my former wing, and felt that what they did was completely unethical. He let me rejoin, even got my old rank back. So far, he doesn't seem to think I ever deserved what I got from my old wing.

Because of that I remain anonymous. I know that the Good Ol' Boy network is still out there, and that it carries across the country. I know of members in my current wing that have been in a couple of my old ones. It wouldn't take much for some of those ghosts from the past to start haunting me now.

MIGCAP

I think you have to remember that we are only now seeing a little light. Regardless of your thoughts about "he who must not be named", it was simply not productive or career enhancing to state your disagreement with management, even over something as meaningless as uniforms that ere not approved by the uniform board.  Until our management proves itself worthy I strongly recommend anonymity.

JAFO78

I don't see a problem with anonymity. I respect anyone here. If your posting count is over 1K. I would think you know what your talking about.

After all this the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and we do have the freedom of speech. If it wasn't for the founders of this origination and the others who gave their lives for our freedoms we would not have theses freedoms today.

I remember that at CAP portal, they we very good about booting people off who started to shoot off their mouths, and I would expect the same here.
JAFO

mikeylikey

Quote from: RobG on October 08, 2007, 08:33:23 PM
If your posting count is over 1K. I would think you know what your talking about.

Or you have WAY too much time on your hands!  In my case, I teach roughly 3 hours of ROTC every other day, PT for 2 hours each morning, and the rest is in the office reading emails and here on CAPTALK.  If it were not for this forum, I would be doing the sudoku in the newspaper.
What's up monkeys?

pixelwonk

Quote from: RobG on October 08, 2007, 08:33:23 PM

I remember that at CAP portal, they we very good about booting people off who started to shoot off their mouths, and I would expect the same here.

'cept that I don't own this one like I did the other.
...but thanks.

Nomex Maximus

I have thought about this subject a lot recently.

If you go back and look at all my posts, you will find out who I am. That was probably a mistake on my part six months ago when I joined CAP, but the forum rules are such that I cannot now go back and delete the posts that have that information. Since my info is out there now, I cannot [censored] and moan about what leadership has done or has failed to have done, even though quite frankly issues exist that should be [censored]ed and moaned about.

After a few "heated" exchanges both here and on other forums I sort of wanted to make a point of identifying myself, in an effort to "boost" my credibility.  In real life, I don't like saying anything in private that I am not willing to say in public, or in other words, I would not say something about you privately that I would be ashamed of having you overhear.  Unfortunately, just one misunderstood or "purposely misunderstood" remark can make a real mess of this volunteer opportunity that I have here in CAP. Thus, I avoid further advertising myself on this forum.

I hope you all understand.

-"NM"



Nomex Tiberius Maximus
2dLT, MS, MO, TMP and MP-T
an inspiration to all cadets
My Theme Song

dwb

I already did this thread once before:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1149.msg14447#msg14447

(actually, I've been having this argument for years, but I digress)

I moderated/administered the CadetStuff forums for about four years, from 2002-2006.  I used to get up in arms when an anonymous loudmouth would come in and stink up the place.  Turns out, it's not the anonymous part that bothered me, and in fact, people who are willing to state their name and say really dumb things are actually worse than the anonymous folks.

Maj Carrales, and other folks arguing that the anons should "reveal" themselves, I'm sorry to say that we're never going to come to agreement on this issue.  My mind has been made up; anonymity is A-OK.

Skyray

I posted a web site on another thread, and as always I used my identity.  There was some information on the web site about TP, and there were some articles from NOTF.  In an instant knee jerk reaction five posters, most of them anonymous, flamed me so bad about TP that the thread was locked before I could tell them that they were missing the point and the articles of interest were about Mike Pannone, Andy Skiba and Rick Bowling, individuals who are very much still a presence in CAP.

Then I got a PM from one of our mad dog cops wanting to know if I still lived in Tamarac.  No I don't, and if you have any funny ideas, I have weaponry around here that will make your Glock look like a pea shooter.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

star1151

Quote from: Skyray on October 09, 2007, 12:05:12 AM
Then I got a PM from one of our mad dog cops wanting to know if I still lived in Tamarac.  No I don't, and if you have any funny ideas, I have weaponry around here that will make your Glock look like a pea shooter.

Sheesh, and people still don't understand why I don't use my full name.

Skyray

Quote from: star1151 on October 09, 2007, 12:26:36 AM
Quote from: Skyray on October 09, 2007, 12:05:12 AM
Then I got a PM from one of our mad dog cops wanting to know if I still lived in Tamarac.  No I don't, and if you have any funny ideas, I have weaponry around here that will make your Glock look like a pea shooter.

Sheesh, and people still don't understand why I don't use my full name.

No, I understand your position as I said before.  I had just hoped that we were too mature for threats.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

Major Carrales

Quote from: justin_bailey on October 08, 2007, 11:30:41 PM
Maj Carrales, and other folks arguing that the anons should "reveal" themselves, I'm sorry to say that we're never going to come to agreement on this issue.  My mind has been made up; anonymity is A-OK.

Well then, I trust that the moderation of TROLLs and the like will continue to be as strong as this statement you just made.  Since you feel it your duty to single me out for flaming.

Anonymity is A-OK?, then I hope you are ready to reap what you sow.  This board's credibility is upheld by those that 1) post with their name and balance out the wacked out bits, 2) bring forth that which in in the light and stays there due to being "help accountable" for what is written and 3) very important LURKERS.

There is two types of moderation, those by the MIKEs of this world and those by the general populace.  The later will be the domain of those willing to stand and be counted as themselves...all others will be suspect from the first letter typed.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

star1151

Quote from: Skyray on October 09, 2007, 12:36:36 AM

No, I understand your position as I said before.  I had just hoped that we were too mature for threats.


Wasn't including you in "people". :-)

Beyond the whole "don't say anything online you wouldn't say to someone's face" argument, I'm seriously beginning to wonder why some think it's a such a good idea to put identifying details on the internet where everyone can read them.  That flies in the face of everything I've ever been taught about safety and security.  From personal experience, giving anyone you don't know the means to identify where you live or work is a bad idea.

Do I sometimes wish I could post my name and unit?  Sure, if all these problems with my squadron blow over, I wish I could because I honestly have nothing to hide.  However, even then,  I'm not willing to put my personal safety at risk by identifying myself and I wonder about those who would have me do so.  They must not have daughters who live alone.

dwb

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 09, 2007, 02:01:36 AMSince you feel it your duty to single me out for flaming.

It was more a continuation of our discussion in the U.S. CAP thread, and I certainly don't feel as though I flamed you in any way.  You're the first person that came to mind in the group of people that oppose anonymity.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 09, 2007, 02:01:36 AMAnonymity is A-OK?, then I hope you are ready to reap what you sow.

Reaped it for years as the CadetStuff admin, and I maintain that anonymity contributes to the quality of the discussion more than it contributes to the poisoning of the well.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 09, 2007, 02:01:36 AM...all others will be suspect from the first letter typed.

I guess this is where we differ.  To intentionally discount the opinion of a user you cannot associate a real name with seems (to me) to be a form of ad hominem.  You can't objectively inspect the argument because you're hung up on not knowing the person that posted it.

pixelwonk

Quote from: Skyray on October 09, 2007, 12:05:12 AM
...Then I got a PM from one of our mad dog cops wanting to know if I still lived in Tamarac.  No I don't, and if you have any funny ideas, I have weaponry around here that will make your Glock look like a pea shooter.
Threats, whether public or via PM, should be reported to the mod team immediately.
And as usual Johnson, you are out of line.


Skyray

I have asked Mike by PM to remove my profile.  I don't care if you think the threat or the response is out of line, it was from someone who has been dicing with me, and it was of the "we know where you live" variety.  Free speech cannot flourish if you insist on imposing your opinions and standards.  For what it is worth, the posted URL had a lot of information on a lot of other stuff than Teflon Tony, and the really good stuff came from a federal judge.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

Major Carrales

Quote from: justin_bailey on October 09, 2007, 02:43:27 AM
It was more a continuation of our discussion in the U.S. CAP thread, and I certainly don't feel as though I flamed you in any way.  You're the first person that came to mind in the group of people that oppose anonymity.

I do not so much oppose anonymity, than I do the writings of those that hide behind it.  There are many anonymous threadsters that provide worthy fodder for debate.  However, there are those that have an "agenda to push" much to the descredit of CAP.  No, you di dnot flame me, but you seem to have, in my persepective of things, provided the match.  A "Match" is a post that, while not a flame, is a spring board for something much worse...a dogpile.

Quote from: justin_bailey on October 09, 2007, 02:43:27 AM
Reaped it for years as the CadetStuff admin, and I maintain that anonymity contributes to the quality of the discussion more than it contributes to the poisoning of the well.

And what have you learned?  I'll tell you what I have...the abuse of anonymity turns this, and other forums, into RUMOR MILLS instead of truly positive exchanges of ideas.  A place where people can turn a lie, into a rumor and then into a fact.

Whatis to stop that process from taking down an innocent.  Many don't see the precedent set by this whole "Pineda Affair."  The precedent that a person can, be they sinner or saint, be taken down by RUMOR instead of fact.   Where you or I could be so damaged by rumor made fact because of the stupid idead that "if I see it in more than one place it has to be the TRUTH!"

Quote from: justin_bailey on October 09, 2007, 02:43:27 AM

I guess this is where we differ.  To intentionally discount the opinion of a user you cannot associate a real name with seems (to me) to be a form of ad hominem.  You can't objectively inspect the argument because you're hung up on not knowing the person that posted it.

[/quote]

To have an ad hominem, you need to have the hominem...the person and knowledge of that person.  We discredit  the ad hominem because such an argument is based on the personal attack...by refusing to give validity to the individual because of who they are.

You greatly miss the point of all this.  The point is that there are those that simply post up an opinion, presented as fact...but still and opinion.  An opinion is only valued based on the person who fosters it.

Now, some Anonymity Threadsters are good about developing a "presence" and posting an fact, with link...then making an opinion.  That can be respected.  But those that come her to start trouble based on RUMOR totally destroy the validity of things posted here.

Is this CAPTALK, or would you have it be CAP-RUMORMILL to teh discredit of CAP?  Have we not enough such people posting out there?

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Walkman

Quote
And what have you learned?  I'll tell you what I have...the abuse of anonymity turns this, and other forums, into RUMOR MILLS instead of truly positive exchanges of ideas.  A place where people can turn a lie, into a rumor and then into a fact.

To be honest, I'm not sure it's the anonymity that creates rumor mills. It's one factor, for sure, but not the only one. The very fact that we're not having this conversation over lunch at Mickey D's I think is the biggest factor in decent behavior. Even knowing real identities, it's very easy for me a the remote corner of the west to flame or threaten someone in Vermont, because I feel safe and secure in my house, in front of my computer and not face to face with them.

Proper admin of a forum is what makes the most difference IMO. Places where trolls run rampant without mods cracking down quickly disintegrate into chaos. I think the mods here do a very good job of keeping things in line.

It's sad to see that some don't feel safe in their right to free speech. We're at the forefront of a new paradigm when it comes to that. How many times do we see a company backpeddling in full crisis-containment mode because they screw3d someone and it got blogged. The fact that everyone now has a microphone to the world has become a great weapon against those that abuse power. I quite enjoy watching it unfold, actually. Its like that scene in a movie where the slimeball gets his comeuppance. 

pixelwonk

I regret that I have to post this here, but Skyray has blocked PMs from this moderator and this was intended and originally attempted to send as such. 

Quote from: Skyray on October 09, 2007, 02:56:06 AM
I don't care if you think the threat or the response is out of line, it was from someone who has been dicing with me, and it was of the "we know where you live" variety.

Use common sense.  Regardless of whether you care or not, you will be viewed at fault if you choose to puff your chest out and issue threatening edicts about your at-home arsenal in the public areas.   Again, if you receive a threat here, it behooves you to report it so we can deal with the sender and diffuse the situation appropriately.

QuoteFree speech cannot flourish if you insist on imposing your opinions and standards.  For what it is worth, the posted URL had a lot of information on a lot of other stuff than Teflon Tony, and the really good stuff came from a federal judge.

Free speech doesn't apply when your credibility is gone and your conduct drives away others.  Like CAP, membership here is a privilege, not a right, in spite of what you may think.  There are no delusions of grandeur here, it's just a friggin Internet forum... but like others, your conduct is monitored and you will be called out for it when you are out of line.
I strongly request your compliance.



Mustang

Quote from: Short Field on October 08, 2007, 05:45:56 PM
Anomymity is a shield that trolls, flamers, and posers hide behind. 

"Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views.  Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority.... It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation--and their ideas from suppression--at the hand of an intolerant society. The right to remain anonymous may be abused when it shields fraudulent conduct. But political speech by its nature will sometimes have unpalatable consequences, and, in general, our society accords greater weight to the value of free speech than to the dangers of its misuse."

- U.S. Supreme Court, McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 1995
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


Major Carrales

Quote from: Mustang on October 09, 2007, 05:05:17 PM


"Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views.  Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority....It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation--and their ideas from suppression--at the hand of an intolerant society. The right to remain anonymous may be abused when it shields fraudulent conduct. But political speech by its nature will sometimes have unpalatable consequences, and, in general, our society accords greater weight to the value of free speech than to the dangers of its misuse."

- U.S. Supreme Court, McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 1995

This calls for truth and factual presentation of materials.  There have been posted rumors that have no grounds in fact (such as the National Commander's "Goons" forcefully clearing a restroom, allegations of misconduct betten communications personnel and suppliers of radios, speculations regarded as fact about specific persons and posted here designed to mislead).

Society? In general?   We are discussing a very specific case here in a private forum.

Also, try not taking quotes out of context, this particular Court statement is discussing the Government and methods to further free speech without rear of GOVERNMENT reprisals, i.e. the tyranny of the majority.  We are discussing the abuse of such power in a privately own public forum.  Apples to apples, Please.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454