Arizona senator has lofty plans for Civil Air Patrol

[HGjunkie]

*Long whistle*

I did NOT realize the border situation was this bad.

[JeffDG]

Just shut off the incentives, and the illegal immigration problem will pretty much sort its self out.  It really is that easy.  No education, your kids don't get to be citizens if mom and dad are hear illegally and NO jobs.  Heavy penalties for people who hire illegals. We don't have to chase them all down, they will weed themselves out.  Every county has illegals to some extent. They just don't cater to their every need like the US does.   If you want to get into drug trafficking.  The majority of cases I work on, the dealers are illegal, but you cant take that into account when your working the case.  Otherwise, if you could go after them for simply being illegal, things would be a lot easier.

Let me start out by saying I'm a legal immigrant who's been working for years and has yet to see a "green card" but subsist on a temporary status (and yes, my membership in CAP is dependent on a waiver).  So those who think anti-illegals are anti-immigrant, well let's just say that doesn't fly.

Most immigrants I know have a level of loathing of illegals that would make most US Citizens blanch.  We legals are expected to spend years waiting, and spend 10's of thousands of dollars to obtain and maintain our legal status, while illegals get stuff handed to them.  As an example, if I were to be laid off tomorrow, I would have 10 days to leave the United States...that's right...days.

My personal solution is to turn over illegal enforcement to private citizens through the civil courts.  Make hiring an illegal equivilant to copyright infringement...and give a right-of-action to anyone who may have been at all damaged by illegal immigration.  Put the same penalties in place as copyright infringement:  $150,000 per infringement, or in the case of illegals, $150,000 per illegal in the employ of a company.  Suddenly $2/hr to pick lettuce or do landscaping isn't so profitable if someone can come and sue you so that you owe $2/hr + $150,000 per employee.

Positives:
1.  No cost to taxpayers
2.  Illegals will self-deport once there are no jobs
3.  Co-opt a traditional liberal interest group (trial lawyers) into this cause...know all those guys who advertise for Mesothelioma victims...guess what they'll be looking for!
4.  Some people hurt by illegals get a nice payday.

[MIKE]

Drifting.

[billford1]

If the PC Law is modified to make CAP effectively a Service Branch CAP will become a target for terrorists. The way things have been we aren't organized, trained or equipped like the military but are are unpaid and unarmed. If there is a National Emergency declared and we get expanded responsibilities we'll be exposed to threats up close as the enemy perceives us as a soft target. The locations where Cadets Drill in uniform should be of great concern.

[JohnKachenmeister]

There IS a serious force protection issue, but I don't think we should run from  a mission becauser somebody MIGHT take action against us. 

Gawd, what has happened to the CAP that flew light planes out against the enemy?

We've gone from "Can do, Sir!" to a bunch of snivelling little cowards hiding behind important-sounding laws to try to shield us from unpleasant duty.

We can harden our assets, and we can still take out place among those Americans who stepped up to face the threats to our nation.

Or, we can put on our golf shirts, tell people we are just a government funded flying club, and continue to believe that laws and lawyers keep us from doing meaningful service.

[billford1]

Do you have ideas for how CAP should handle force protection if the state doesn't have LEOs or ANG folks to go with us? I'd like to know how force protection for CAP members is being worked in Arizona. Do you suppose the decision makers will determine that some CAP folks should be tasked with guarding their own?

"a bunch of snivelling little cowards hiding behind important-sounding laws to try to shield us from unpleasant duty."

WHA??  We've become what we've been told what our role is. I agree with you that we can harden our assets and cowboy up like we may be required to but for now Many of us wear the Polo.  It doesn't seem like we're just a flying club.

Some will avoid duty if they have to wait to be reimbursed for fuel and some incidental expenses allowed.  A lot of us are increasingly short of money to spare for CAP activities. The state may need to consider compensating us as they would other Service Branch Members. Some of us can burn vacation days from work but shouldn't we be paid and given the supplies to do the job while it is in progress?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes.  I DO know how to harden and defend critical assets.  It requires training, resources, and includes both physical measures and security procedures, but it is not rocket science.  We can do it if we want to. 

I deployed half my unit on Deepwater Horizon photo missions for several months.  We worked out a rotation schedule, and had planes or CAP vans shuttle crews to the base for a few days at a time.  That takes a little planning, but it is do-able and still not rocket science.

Reimbursement included free (direct pay) hotel rooms and meals, plus a small per diem allowance that was paid within two weeks, along with any fuel reimbursement.  Delays in payment were caused by the officer blundering his paperwork.  Learning in those cases usually took place fairly quickly, even for the dumber guys.  Classic Skinnerian learning theory... a system of rewards for doing a task right, and denial of reward for doing it wrong.

There is NO reason CAP cannot perform the border patrol mission.

Don't conceal a gelatinous backbone by hiding it behind specious interpretations of laws.

[Eclipse]

Some will avoid duty if they have to wait to be reimbursed for fuel and some incidental expenses allowed.  A lot of us are increasingly short of money to spare for CAP activities. The state may need to consider compensating us as they would other Service Branch Members. Some of us can burn vacation days from work but shouldn't we be paid and given the supplies to do the job while it is in progress?

Paid?  No.  We are volunteers.  Also, being paid changes the entire dynamic of expectation.

With that said, per diem and expense reimbursement are now a part of our regulations and required in many cases.  Having to wait for that reimbursement is just part of the game.  I have personally received per diem and billeting reimbursements on at least two missions.

As has been said here before, no member should ever give of their time or treasure to the point it is hardship for them, that misses the point of CAP, and if you are in a situation where a particular activity is too much of a financial stretch, you should not be there.

[RADIOMAN015]

Some will avoid duty if they have to wait to be reimbursed for fuel and some incidental expenses allowed.  A lot of us are increasingly short of money to spare for CAP activities. The state may need to consider compensating us as they would other Service Branch Members. Some of us can burn vacation days from work but shouldn't we be paid and given the supplies to do the job while it is in progress?

Paid?  No.  We are volunteers.  Also, being paid changes the entire dynamic of expectation.

With that said, per diem and expense reimbursement are now a part of our regulations and required in many cases.  Having to wait for that reimbursement is just part of the game.  I have personally received per diem and billeting reimbursements on at least two missions.

As has been said here before, no member should ever give of their time or treasure to the point it is hardship for them, that misses the point of CAP, and if you are in a situation where a particular activity is too much of a financial stretch, you should not be there.

Volunteer Disaster Medical Assistance Teams when activated/deployed  to provide medical assistance are temporary federal civilian employees, that are paid a specific GS rating based upon their position being filled on the team.  Although I don't expect us as CAP members to get paid for short missions (e.g. 3 days or less), I do believe that any missions longer than 3 days should allow us to be brought in and paid as temporary civil service civilian employees based upon the mission skill being utilized, e.g. pilot, as well as reimbursed for other expenses (food, lodging, transportation).  Reimbursement should not take longer than 1 week.
RM

[JohnKachenmeister]

Never gonna happen.  We are volunteers.  We were volunteers in combat and we are volunteers now.  All you can expect is to sometimes get a little per diem.

Me, I'm happy with an occasional "Your officers did a good job, Colonel."

[billford1]

Never gonna happen.  We are volunteers.  We were volunteers in combat and we are volunteers now.  All you can expect is to sometimes get a little per diem.

Me, I'm happy with an occasional "Your officers did a good job, Colonel."

So far the kind of missions I've seen have been short duration, 3 days or less. Yeah I'm a volunteer and glad for what I can do working a mission with the vacation days I can burn. I know members however who don't get paid when they are away from their jobs.  These are people who give more to the Civil Air Patrol than anybody.

If there is a mission that lasts a week or two and we are there with the rest of the force what choice are you going to make for the volunteers under your command who are of modest financial means and who have the heart to serve?  Do you really think that Civil Air Patrol Force Members should not get the same treatment as other Civil Servants with what appear to be increased expectations as our roles change in the future? I agree with Radio Man.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Here in FL, we had a dual response to the oil spill.  We had some missions flown for AFNSEP as a federal mission, but 80 per cent of our missions were flown as corporate for the FL EMA.  This was an intense operational tempo for several months.  It took the entire wing, about half of my unit, and all but a few of my rated aircrewmen.  We still had to respond to the usual SAR missions to turn off ELT's, too.

The operational tempo accelerated the maintenance tempo, which required ferrying aircraft in for 100-hour checks more often. 

We worked out a schedule, used transport pilots rather than mission pilots for the ferry flights, shuttled crews around either in aircraft or sometimes in vans, and got the mission done without hardship to anyone.   No employer distress, nobody went broke.

It took planning, leadership, and teamwork.

The guys who carried out this mission were auxiliary officers of the US Air Force.  You can't do this with unpaid employees of a non-profit corporation. 

[Eclipse]

So far the kind of missions I've seen have been short duration, 3 days or less. Yeah I'm a volunteer and glad for what I can do working a mission with the vacation days I can burn. I know members however who don't get paid when they are away from their jobs.  These are people who give more to the Civil Air Patrol than anybody.

We all make the same deal when we join - "give as much as you can, and then we will expect more".  If you can be "there", be "there", if you can't, no harm or foul, unless you committed to something and don't show.

Just about everyone takes vacation time, personal time, or unpaid leave to participate in missions and other activities - the fact that you
are not getting paid by your full time gig doesn't make your service "better", it is part of the deal and why volunteer service is a sacrifice.

If there is a mission that lasts a week or two and we are there with the rest of the force what choice are you going to make for the volunteers under your command who are of modest financial means and who have the heart to serve?

"Thank you for coming, please stay and help as long as you can, and let us know when you have to leave."

The willingness to serve doesn't automatically equal the ability to serve, whatever the challenge might be.  Some people have creative,
flexible jobs, are retired, or whatever, the vast majority are not.  Some people believe a vacation is their deity-granted right each year, feel cheated if they don't get annual beach or fishing time, and resent having to use their PTO for CAP.  Others see vacations as a waste of potential and would prefer to be productive.

Do what you will do, but don't insinuate the CAP volunteer model is "broken" just because some members don't have the means to take a week off for a mission, encampment, or training.  Take a look at some local volunteer FD's, see what those members spend each year in equipment, and ask how much they are paid, even when they are on call, sleeping in a firehouse.

Some members would like to be pilots, but the financial realities of pilot training to a level useful to CAP make that a non-starter.  Should they blame CAP for not providing flight training?  Of course not.  CAP's whole point is to take existing resources and people's valuable skills and put them to use for little to no cost, not provide part time DR jobs.

Once you start paying people, the expectations go up exponentially, and the ability to come and go as you please disappears, or the money goes elsewhere the first time people don't answer the phone.

This is why normalizing the ranks, figuring out our real readiness, and increasing our troop strength is so critical, but that doesn't mean the basic CAP idea is invalid or unfair.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

CAP volunteers are just that, we give of our time freely. Why pay me for doing what I love? I get paid to sit on my butt on the couch all day every day, so my point of view on this is pretty skewed so if I get it wrong please don't hang me by the thumbs and shove bamboo shoots under my toenails.

When I was a cadet, I delivered newspapers in the morning then I went to high school then to work. Except on Thursdays I only did the first two because CAP was that night, and I wasn't missing that for the world. When a mission came up, I called work and told them I wouldn't be there probably for a few days and why, and that was that. Of course in INWG there is a state statute/law whatever it is, that actually says that a person cannot be fired or demoted or any repercussions acted upon an employee  who calls before start of shift/duty and informs them of an emergency mission in CAP. It is really there, and I was so pleased about finding that. It also says that if you notify your boss of a call up for a mission during shift if they say you can go then they can't do anything about it either.

But the thing is, we are volunteers, volunteering is volunteering. Would you expect to be paid when you work on a house with habitat for humanities?

[billford1]

I agree with Eclipse and LTC John Kachenmeister in principle. I give lots of my time to CAP with no regrets.

My perspective is based on the premise that with a significant chain of events where our National Security is impacted that the Federal Government will need a lot more participants. They may want to depend a lot more on the Civil Air Patrol and will have expectations that we presently may not meet in many states except for some where there are a lot more missions.

LTC Kachenmeister's explanation was insightful.

[tdepp]

We all make the same deal when we join - "give as much as you can, and then we will expect more".  If you can be "there", be "there", if you can't, no harm or foul, unless you committed to something and don't show.


Do what you will do, but don't insinuate the CAP volunteer model is "broken" just because some members don't have the means to take a week off for a mission, encampment, or training.  Take a look at some local volunteer FD's, see what those members spend each year in equipment, and ask how much they are paid, even when they are on call, sleeping in a firehouse.

Indeed, Eclipse. Well said.  I have been unemployed for the past six months and have been able to spend a considerable amount of time on CAP activities.  That has been one of the few blessings of my current streak of bad luck. 

Last Monday, nearly 50 South Dakota and Nebraska CAP members dropped everything--jobs, school, family plans--to look for a downed aircraft in the snow and wind.  That 50 volunteers would do this to look for people they don't even know is simply unbelievable--and touching.  I like hanging out with people with sense of service to their nation and others--as volunteers.

[Flying Pig]

CAP volunteers are just that, we give of our time freely. Why pay me for doing what I love? I get paid to sit on my butt on the couch all day every day, so my point of view on this is pretty skewed so if I get it wrong please don't hang me by the thumbs and shove bamboo shoots under my toenails.

When I was a cadet, I delivered newspapers in the morning then I went to high school then to work. Except on Thursdays I only did the first two because CAP was that night, and I wasn't missing that for the world. When a mission came up, I called work and told them I wouldn't be there probably for a few days and why, and that was that. Of course in INWG there is a state statute/law whatever it is, that actually says that a person cannot be fired or demoted or any repercussions acted upon an employee  who calls before start of shift/duty and informs them of an emergency mission in CAP. It is really there, and I was so pleased about finding that. It also says that if you notify your boss of a call up for a mission during shift if they say you can go then they can't do anything about it either.

But the thing is, we are volunteers, volunteering is volunteering. Would you expect to be paid when you work on a house with habitat for humanities?

Im all for getting paid to do what I love doing!!!

[Earhart1971]

There will be a time in the future, where the FEDs will have to wake up and smell the coffee. Civil Air Patrol will become more like a National Guard.

Higher rates of per diem. We will have full time aircrews paid a living wage, and we will do it all a lot cheaper than Border Patrol Pilots and National Guard Helicopter Pilots.

It's only a matter of time.

When there are only 400,000 FAA Licensed Pilots and 60 to 70 percent of the pilots are older than 50. That means we will be running out of pilots.

All we need is another hot spot in the World to bleed more Guard Units and Aviation Units over seas and we will start moving towards that end.

[Major Carrales]

One you have people who only do CAP "for the money" we lose something most important about what makes CAP work.  The heart of a true volunteer. 

If we paid CAP members, it would radically change the culture of CAP.  I would speculate that some 87% of CAP's current members would not be able to commit to extended such service and a new wave of members would replace them.  CAP would then be rolled into the Air National Guard (after all, why have two air militias) and fade into oblivion.

[Earhart1971]

One you have people who only do CAP "for the money" we lose something most important about what makes CAP work.  The heart of a true volunteer. 

If we paid CAP members, it would radically change the culture of CAP.  I would speculate that some 87% of CAP's current members would not be able to commit to extended such service and a new wave of members would replace them.  CAP would then be rolled into the Air National Guard (after all, why have two air militias) and fade into oblivion.

Disagree on all your points, it will make us over to be more professional.I would hire someone that served for free, and is already in CAP first. I have had ex military pilots tell me, they will not fly for Free.  Its only a matter of when.  There will be huge need for experienced pilots. 
D