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CAP joins the TEA party

Started by RiverAux, April 26, 2010, 07:37:52 PM

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RiverAux

Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:16:45 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:11:57 PM
Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
Who do you think paid for the uniforms that the cadets were probably wearing?  Some of the other equipment was also probably ultimately paid for by the fed?  If a squadron van was used to get to the event that was purchased wtih fed dollars.   Liability coverage for the CAP members was paid for by CAP with money received by the federal government.

Does congress actually set aside tax dollars for CAP?
You're kidding, right?  Almost all of CAP's budget at the national level, (where the planes and vans come from) comes from federal tax dollars.  Sure, membership dues and some corporate donations are in there, but they don't account for much.  The case is different at the squadron and wing level  where other funding sources are much more important.  But, even then about 2/3 of CAP wings receive taxpayer funds from the states. 

heliodoc

CAP not using tax dollars???  BS

The two Wings I have been involved with get grants for many thing ranging from comm to the very functions of a Wing

Folks thinkin that CAP does not get federal funds or grants from the Feds or Federal to State pass through money are kidding themselves

I forgot many in CAP forget that little fact!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

mynetdude

Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:16:45 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:11:57 PM
Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
Who do you think paid for the uniforms that the cadets were probably wearing?  Some of the other equipment was also probably ultimately paid for by the fed?  If a squadron van was used to get to the event that was purchased wtih fed dollars.   Liability coverage for the CAP members was paid for by CAP with money received by the federal government.

Does congress actually set aside tax dollars for CAP?
You're kidding, right?  Almost all of CAP's budget at the national level, (where the planes and vans come from) comes from federal tax dollars.  Sure, membership dues and some corporate donations are in there, but they don't account for much.  The case is different at the squadron and wing level  where other funding sources are much more important.  But, even then about 2/3 of CAP wings receive taxpayer funds from the states.

That was my point, the taxpayer dollars is at the NHQ level so that is why I was asking if congress actually sets aside funds JUST for CAP or does it get given to the USAF to decide? Seems to me the USAF pays for our planes and vans or is that not the case? My understanding is the USAF pays for o-rides obviously but I'm not sure if I am mistaken if they also pay for some of the maintenance on the planes too?

Anyway, taxpayer or not it would seem to be a disservice not to honor the colors for an event if requested again whether a politician is there or not I would say (not my choice because the regs are the regs) let the USAF allow the colors to be honored and then leave prudently afterwords to limit exposure would that be harmful?

Major Lord

Quote from: Short Field on April 26, 2010, 11:36:53 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on April 26, 2010, 11:28:39 PM
In your eyes, the WAA program may not be a political statement, but I will guarantee you that there are leftists and atheists who will be profoundly confirmed in their beliefs that CAP conducting memorial ceremonies with Christian Symbols in support of the dead of the wars will view it as political speech.
I missed the Christian symbols that CAP was using, what were they?   Also please provide a cite for the leftists and atheists believing that?   I already know you believe that.

" The Arlington Wreath program was started by Morrill Worcester (Worcester Wreath) in 1992 with the donation and laying of 5000 Christmas wreaths to Arlington National Cemetery.  This became an annual journey for Mr. Worcester."

Christmas Wreathes are Christian Symbols. Respectfully, I don't think you know what I believe since you seem to have some kind of reading comprehension problem. I don't think you will have any problems finding atheists or leftists who object to WAA if you look. (Atheists are not big on Christmas by the way) I fully support the WAA program, and it clearly is one the kinds of activities we should be doing.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiverAux

Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 11:52:46 PM
That was my point, the taxpayer dollars is at the NHQ level so that is why I was asking if congress actually sets aside funds JUST for CAP or does it get given to the USAF to decide?
Congess just doesn't give the AF a pot of money and let them spend it how they will.  Congess tells them how much to spend on CAP.   Heck, if it was up to the AF CAP's budget would be a fraction of what it is (they try to cut it every single year and Congress puts the money back in). 

davidsinn

Quote from: Major Lord on April 26, 2010, 11:58:52 PM
Quote from: Short Field on April 26, 2010, 11:36:53 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on April 26, 2010, 11:28:39 PM
In your eyes, the WAA program may not be a political statement, but I will guarantee you that there are leftists and atheists who will be profoundly confirmed in their beliefs that CAP conducting memorial ceremonies with Christian Symbols in support of the dead of the wars will view it as political speech.
I missed the Christian symbols that CAP was using, what were they?   Also please provide a cite for the leftists and atheists believing that?   I already know you believe that.

" The Arlington Wreath program was started by Morrill Worcester (Worcester Wreath) in 1992 with the donation and laying of 5000 Christmas wreaths to Arlington National Cemetery.  This became an annual journey for Mr. Worcester."

Christmas Wreathes are Christian Symbols. Respectfully, I don't think you know what I believe since you seem to have some kind of reading comprehension problem. I don't think you will have any problems finding atheists or leftists who object to WAA if you look. (Atheists are not big on Christmas by the way) I fully support the WAA program, and it clearly is one the kinds of activities we should be doing.

Major Lord

Um, wreaths and trees are actually pagan symbols if you get right down to it.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

RiverAux

I'd like to think that most CAP officers have enough common sense to tell between a partisan political event and a genuine "community" event.   I think the fact that such cases as this are apparently rare seems to back that up. 

I don't think that we have to worry too much about the fringe groups that can make just about anything political.  After all, you could try to stretch things and say "If there is an anti-military demonstration against CAP, then attending a CAP meeting is a prohibited political activity." 

mynetdude

Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2010, 12:04:19 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 11:52:46 PM
That was my point, the taxpayer dollars is at the NHQ level so that is why I was asking if congress actually sets aside funds JUST for CAP or does it get given to the USAF to decide?
Congess just doesn't give the AF a pot of money and let them spend it how they will.  Congess tells them how much to spend on CAP.   Heck, if it was up to the AF CAP's budget would be a fraction of what it is (they try to cut it every single year and Congress puts the money back in).

makes sense, learn something new everyday :)

Short Field

Quote from: Major Lord on April 26, 2010, 11:58:52 PM
Christmas Wreathes are Christian Symbols. Respectfully, I don't think you know what I believe since you seem to have some kind of reading comprehension problem.
Lets see...you believe that Christmas wreathes are christian symbols, that leftists believe laying a wreath on a serviceman's grave is a christian event, and that atheists believe laying a wreath on a serviceman's grave as a christian event.  Did I miss something?

Now, please provide a cite where leftists and atheists believe laying wreaths on graves are christian events.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

vmstan

Wow, I'm going to catch flak from some friends for this, if they see it. I've already had to explain to a few people I know that we're not some bunch of anti-government militia running around in the hills training for Armageddon. That, you know, we're actually a semi-federal-unarmed-emergency-services-non-profit-corporation-military-auxiliary-thingy ...
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

mynetdude

Quote from: Marshalus on April 27, 2010, 12:44:32 AM
Wow, I'm going to catch flak from some friends for this, if they see it. I've already had to explain to a few people I know that we're not some bunch of anti-government militia running around in the hills training for Armageddon. That, you know, we're actually a semi-federal-unarmed-emergency-services-non-profit-corporation-military-auxiliary-thingy ...

How can we be militia if we ain't got any guns? :P

Major Lord

Quote from: Short Field on April 27, 2010, 12:38:51 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on April 26, 2010, 11:58:52 PM
Christmas Wreathes are Christian Symbols. Respectfully, I don't think you know what I believe since you seem to have some kind of reading comprehension problem.
Lets see...you believe that Christmas wreathes are christian symbols, that leftists believe laying a wreath on a serviceman's grave is a christian event, and that atheists believe laying a wreath on a serviceman's grave as a christian event.  Did I miss something?

Now, please provide a cite where leftists and atheists believe laying wreaths on graves are christian events.

Are you currently taking prescription medication?

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

lordmonar

Quote from: heliodoc on April 26, 2010, 11:52:13 PM
CAP not using tax dollars???  BS

The two Wings I have been involved with get grants for many thing ranging from comm to the very functions of a Wing

Folks thinkin that CAP does not get federal funds or grants from the Feds or Federal to State pass through money are kidding themselves

I forgot many in CAP forget that little fact!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not saying CAP does not get TAX dollars....but the Nellis Composite Squadron Color Guard does not.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: Major Lord on April 26, 2010, 11:58:52 PMChristmas Wreathes are Christian Symbols.
No...actually that are a pagan sysmbol that has been incorporated into our christmas traditions.  Yule, Yule tide, the evergreen tree and decorating there of...are all pagan traditions that were co-opted by the early christians as the moved into the middle europe.

As an athiest...I got no problem with WAA as it is primarily a way of honoring our veterans and NOT a religious celebration.

While I am sure that there are some extreme leftists and Athiest groups that don't like it.....most of us could care less.  We are much more upset about "In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God" then WAA.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JayT

Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2010, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: heliodoc on April 26, 2010, 11:52:13 PM
CAP not using tax dollars???  BS

The two Wings I have been involved with get grants for many thing ranging from comm to the very functions of a Wing

Folks thinkin that CAP does not get federal funds or grants from the Feds or Federal to State pass through money are kidding themselves

I forgot many in CAP forget that little fact!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not saying CAP does not get TAX dollars....but the Nellis Composite Squadron Color Guard does not.

So the Color Guard isn't part of CAP then?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

SarDragon

Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:16:45 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:11:57 PM
Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
Who do you think paid for the uniforms that the cadets were probably wearing?  Some of the other equipment was also probably ultimately paid for by the fed?  If a squadron van was used to get to the event that was purchased wtih fed dollars.   Liability coverage for the CAP members was paid for by CAP with money received by the federal government.

Does congress actually set aside tax dollars for CAP?

No. The fed money we get comes out of the AF budget. CAP is a line item in their budget.

QuoteI know they do for USAF, that's part of their defense funds.  Yeah sure our tax dollars at one point paid for uniforms the cadets are wearing now also remember that servicemen do regularly purchase new uniforms with their own funds and are donated (sometimes) when not needed so its NOT just tax dollars that pay for it.

Service members get a clothing allowance to replace worn uniforms. Most of the time, it isn't quite enough to keep an adequate supply of uniform items on hand for day-to-day work.

"Donated" uniforms are almost always used, even though they may be in excellent condition. Most used uniforms have problems that preclude their use as a nice dress uniform.

QuoteWhat about donations? I don't think the purchase of vans and aircraft are ALL tax dollars. 

AFAIK, all the planes and vans are paid for by the AF.

QuoteIn fact I had a member tell me that cadets actually pay for their uniform as part of their membership dues (and I am a little puzzled by that for a reason) ok so cadet gets free uniform voucher and NHQ sends uniform to cadets and makes sense if that means they paid for that uniform when they signed up HOWEVER regulations stipulate that cadets (and senior members) must return squadron issued uniforms should the member not maintain membership beyond their first year.

The initial cadet uniform issue is not paid for out of the cadet dues. They are AF issue, and come from the AF military clothing sales in Lackland (?), not  Alabama. The folks at NHQ have nothing to do with the issue process, other than forwarding the form to Lackland.

QuoteIf that is the case why not allow a SM to purchase uniform from NHQ during their first membership signup?

SMs can just as easily order their own uniforms direct from the source. Why complicate the process?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

lordmonar

Quote from: JThemann on April 27, 2010, 01:03:49 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2010, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: heliodoc on April 26, 2010, 11:52:13 PM
CAP not using tax dollars???  BS

The two Wings I have been involved with get grants for many thing ranging from comm to the very functions of a Wing

Folks thinkin that CAP does not get federal funds or grants from the Feds or Federal to State pass through money are kidding themselves

I forgot many in CAP forget that little fact!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not saying CAP does not get TAX dollars....but the Nellis Composite Squadron Color Guard does not.

So the Color Guard isn't part of CAP then?
Not to extent that I every got one cent from the federal government to equip, train and deploy my team.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: JThemann on April 27, 2010, 01:03:49 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2010, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: heliodoc on April 26, 2010, 11:52:13 PM
CAP not using tax dollars???  BS

The two Wings I have been involved with get grants for many thing ranging from comm to the very functions of a Wing

Folks thinkin that CAP does not get federal funds or grants from the Feds or Federal to State pass through money are kidding themselves

I forgot many in CAP forget that little fact!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Not saying CAP does not get TAX dollars....but the Nellis Composite Squadron Color Guard does not.

So the Color Guard isn't part of CAP then?

Sure it is. But the Nellis color guard apparently survives on funds which source is NOT the corporation or the federal government.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

DakRadz

Yes, I shall say it.

Tunnel vision seems to be the most common affliction of the Senior Member crowd.
THAT is MY opinion, to clarify, not a proven fact... yet.

I do so enjoy seeing such arguments- makes me crack up, and late at night, when the little siblings are asleep, I have to stifle my laughter til I about choke  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Back on topic, I have a question. Does anyone think the cadets will be reprimanded for this? That would seem a little unfair, seeing as SM guidance should have come into play...

mynetdude

Quote from: SarDragon on April 27, 2010, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:35:44 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:16:45 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 26, 2010, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2010, 10:11:57 PM
Anyone note the irony in the TEA party using a taxpayer supported color guard at this event?

I was gonna say, what taxpayer dollars? I don't think taxpayer monies support CAP itself unless it comes from the USAF of course.
Who do you think paid for the uniforms that the cadets were probably wearing?  Some of the other equipment was also probably ultimately paid for by the fed?  If a squadron van was used to get to the event that was purchased wtih fed dollars.   Liability coverage for the CAP members was paid for by CAP with money received by the federal government.

Does congress actually set aside tax dollars for CAP?

No. The fed money we get comes out of the AF budget. CAP is a line item in their budget.

QuoteI know they do for USAF, that's part of their defense funds.  Yeah sure our tax dollars at one point paid for uniforms the cadets are wearing now also remember that servicemen do regularly purchase new uniforms with their own funds and are donated (sometimes) when not needed so its NOT just tax dollars that pay for it.

Service members get a clothing allowance to replace worn uniforms. Most of the time, it isn't quite enough to keep an adequate supply of uniform items on hand for day-to-day work.

"Donated" uniforms are almost always used, even though they may be in excellent condition. Most used uniforms have problems that preclude their use as a nice dress uniform.

QuoteWhat about donations? I don't think the purchase of vans and aircraft are ALL tax dollars. 

AFAIK, all the planes and vans are paid for by the AF.

QuoteIn fact I had a member tell me that cadets actually pay for their uniform as part of their membership dues (and I am a little puzzled by that for a reason) ok so cadet gets free uniform voucher and NHQ sends uniform to cadets and makes sense if that means they paid for that uniform when they signed up HOWEVER regulations stipulate that cadets (and senior members) must return squadron issued uniforms should the member not maintain membership beyond their first year.

The initial cadet uniform issue is not paid for out of the cadet dues. They are AF issue, and come from the AF military clothing sales in Lackland (?), not  Alabama. The folks at NHQ have nothing to do with the issue process, other than forwarding the form to Lackland.

QuoteIf that is the case why not allow a SM to purchase uniform from NHQ during their first membership signup?

SMs can just as easily order their own uniforms direct from the source. Why complicate the process?

Complicate? Seems to me if its complicated to have to order from Vanguard or AFFEES for the first time IMHO streamlining uniform issuance to be sent to the SM for the first time then after that SM buys their own uniforms.