ADHD and ADD

[DC]

We recently have had two cadets join, one with ADD and one with ADHD. The cadet with ADD has it under relative control, but our cadet with ADHD is not doing well. He is medicated, but has a ridiculously short attention span. We cannot get him to stand at attention (or parade rest, or anything else that involves standing still, focusing, etc. 

Any tips on how to deal with this. He is also 12, and very immature...

[PA Guy]

Maybe CAP isn't for him at this point in his life.  Most sqdns don't have the training and resources to deal with a cadet with poor control of this problem.  Is it fair to the other cadets to devote a disproportionate portion of sqdn resources to one person?  This situation has the potential to cause major disruption and morale probs for your other cadets.  Why set this kid up for failure by having him in a program with expectations that he apparently isn't able to attempt at this time?

[SJFedor]

Second.

Though it's not fair to discriminate against the kid for his problem, I think a meeting with his parents explaining that, at this point, the cadet program may not be a good fit for him. Perhaps again in a few years once some of the maturity starts to kick in. Otherwise, it'll just be a drain on unit personnel/resources and a disruption to those who are there to participate in the program

[IceNine]

Rock and a hard place...

On one hand it is much easier to talk with the parents and assist them in arriving at the conclusions that "little jimmy" isn't ready for this yet.

On the other hand we are bound by accepted nondiscrimination policies.  So, if we tell him he cannot stay and play, and Mother and Father fight it, we can have a potentially serious issue on our hands.

[PHall]

I hate to sound like a jerk, but....

You should have had a serious talk with the parents before any papers were signed about this.
It should have been made very clear what would be expected of this kid and did they, the parents think that he could handle it.

A suggestion of waiting a year or so until he was a bit more mature would have been very approperate if you guys thought there was going to be a problem.

One really big question is, does this cadet really want to be in CAP, or is it the parents who want him in.
If they don't wanna be there, then it's not going to be a good time for anyone.

[Hawk200]

On the other hand we are bound by accepted nondiscrimination policies.  So, if we tell him he cannot stay and play, and Mother and Father fight it, we can have a potentially serious issue on our hands.

Not really. There is a major difference between non-discrimination and medical care. We are bound by non-discrimination policies. We are not required to provide care or behavioral training to someone with an existing medical condition. Far different worlds.

Tell the parents that we lack the proper professional training to assist the young man. Be straightforward and polite. A simple "We're sorry, but we don't have the training or resources to assist your son" will go a long way. Above all, be polite, no matches over it.

[Stonewall]

I once had a family of 3 boys, then their father, then their mother join.  All 3 kids, the parents claimed, were ADHD/ADD.  All were on Ritalin and the parents should have been too.  I actually had to tell the mom to stop coming to meetings because she was just as much of a distraction to the entire squadron as her sons.  At least the dad was into flying (observer) stuff.

I told the parents I was going to treat their kids no different than I would treat any cadet.   If a cadet is being disruptive, playing around or otherwise being a space cadet, I'll address it.  If a talkin' to doesn't fix it, then they'll be sent out of the room.  If that didn't fix it, a talkin' to the parents with the cadet present.  If that doesn't work, suspend them for 3 meetings.

Once, I had to tell the parents to have their oldest take a break for 3 weeks.  Other than that, I think they acted like 12, 14, 15, 17, year olds.  Had all of them in CAP up until they graduated high school.  The worst was the oldest who somehow got into the Army Reserves as a Generator Repair Technician and came back after AIT telling the cadets, in my absence, that he was in Afghanistan killing terrorists with the SEALs and that his buddy got killed and he saved his first sergeant.  <<<---- I'm not making this up.  So he tried to come back as a senior member and I told him he's full of poop and to not come back, ever.

Middle kid went into the Air Force as a TACP.

Not sure what happened to the youngest.

[jimmydeanno]

Before you start talking about the kid not coming back, try finding out if there is anything that you can do to handle the behavior.

We have a kid with ADHD in our squadron, he is medicated and has a short attention span.  His parents were up front with us about it so we inquired if there were any "techniques" that would help retain his attention when needed.

The cadet himself even offered some pointers on how to "bring him back."  He apologized (which he didn't need to because it really isn't something he can help) but said he really wanted to do this and knew he had some difficulties but would try really hard.

They offered a few hints about keeping him engaged with what is going on.  Fortunately, he loves drill and finds it to be a big challenge, it's the classroom settings that are a bit harder, but throw in a hands on activity and he's good.

I would inquire about some simple things to reel him back in, I'm sure he knows some and I'm sure the parents do to.  If we can get a partially mentally-challenged kid with epilepsy through encampment, we should be able to "handle" some ADHD.

If the worst thing that he does is not stand at attention for long periods of time, I don't see that as that big of a deal.  Every cadet goes through some periods where they fidgit, etc.  A few "corrections" here and there shouldn't be too much.

Good luck though.

[DC]

I will ask about the attention span.. It's kind of wierd. He will be sitting in a class, taking notes, doing great, then all of a sudden he will just start doodling in his notebook, or he will interrupt the class with a little story that may or may not be very relevent to the topic at hand.

We have dealt with a difficult cadet before. About a year ago a cadet joined with a minor learning disability. He could never get his uniform straight, sucked at drill, couldn't figure out customs and courtesies, etc. Now, with some mentoring and a lot of patience he is on his way to being one of our better cadets. He is wearing his uniform properly, is adequate at drill, and is generally doing fairly well. He just passed his Arnold last night too. So I know it can be done.

[John Bryan]

"There is a major difference between non-discrimination and medical care. We are bound by non-discrimination policies. We are not required to provide care or behavioral training to someone with an existing medical condition. Far different worlds."

Well not so fast....we are not being asked to treat ADHD, we are being asked to work with a young person with a disability...far different worlds. As has been pointed out when we discussed the BOG firing the National Commander even though the regs say the National Board should have, federal law beats CAP regs....my point is does the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 apply to us? I would think yes.

To those who think we should run this kid off.....would you say to a 14 yr old in a wheelchair sorry you can't stand up for opening formation so there is no place in CAP for you? Would you say to a blind 12 yr old sorry our books don't come in brail? That would be sad to turn a blind kid away from things like COS, CLA and other leadership schools....never know if he/she might grow up to be Governor of a large state like New York. ADD and ADHD are considered by most to be learning disabilities. Lets not act like this kid is a "bad behaved trouble maker".

For those who say we don't have the training, you are most likely correct....  maybe it is time to buy one less G1000 airplane and put some money into training adult leaders of cadets. Lets face it our in house youth leader training is very very weak.

I for one do not want to belong to a group that treats disabled young people like second class people.

[Ned]

[M]y point is does the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 apply to us? I would think yes.

Interesting question, but I'm not sure why it would.

The ADA, by its own terms, applies to employers, state and local governments, and public accomodations.

It does not appear to cover volunteer groups, clubs, or associations. 

And the Executive Branch of the Federal government is not covered by the ADA (but may be covered by other "ADA-like" regulations.)

CAP, Inc is certainly required to comply with various ADA requirements for our paid employees at NHQ and in the field, but nothing I've seen would suggest that cadet members are covered by the ADA.

What makes you think the ADA would apply to cadets?

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[DNall]

ADA does not apply to CAP. We're a federal corporation under direction of congress w/ AF oversight. As a volunteer org, it does not apply. As a federal entity it does not apply. CAP as a corp has chosen to voluntarily comply. We are also bound by certain AF & DoD regs on the issue. All that basically means the dollar figure will be lower in judgment than normal circumstances & we might be able to weasel out of a few cases.

It's a tough spot cause we really can't comply all the time when we have no funding at the local level & mostly live off the charity of others. We have very limited personnel & training resources so it's hard to actually address special needs. We do what we can, but there will always be cases where people don't feel comfortable & choose to leave the setting. 

[link]

Does ADA apply to joining the Branches or the National Guard?

[0]

I think in our case, if we take each perspective on a case by case basis. I'm saying this as I'm diagnosed with ADD.  Although there is a school of thought that it's all ADHD now.  But that aside, I know from my experience in JROTC that sometimes the discipline of either program can be of help to a young person that has attention issues.  There are some we can help and some we can't. 

[capchiro]

CAPR 36-2 in part:

a. The Constitution of the Civil Air Patrol, Article VII, states, "Discrimination based on race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability is prohibited."

I would propose that discrimination against a disability, even ADHD, is a BIG no-no and better be handled with kid (no pun intended) gloves.

[DNall]

The Americans w/ disabilities act does not apply to the military. Obviously you can't be an infantryman in a wheel chair - though I could have used one after a few marches.

Conditions such as ADD & ADHA are disqualifying. Taking medications for such conditions after age 12 is DQ. You can get waivers, if the condition no longer exists & you have not been on meds for over a year.

The rules I mentioned apply more to civilian employees & public access buildings being handicap accessible.

[kpetersen]

CAPR 36-2 in part:

a. The Constitution of the Civil Air Patrol, Article VII, states, "Discrimination based on race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability is prohibited."

I would propose that discrimination against a disability, even ADHD, is a BIG no-no and better be handled with kid (no pun intended) gloves.

I'm not siding either way, but I'm wondering what the definition of disability qualifies as in this scenario.  (Sorry, I'm a bright-line type of person).  I've heard of times where we do not let cadets fly in a glider at a specific activity because their weight puts the glider over its weight and balance.  I also know we don't waive cadets PT because of obesity (though I have heard of [not witnessed] doctors doing so).   Addionally, either the amount of ADHD/ADD has increased drastically with mine and younger generations, or we just like over diagnosing and over medicating kids.

[jimmydeanno]

That's sort of like saying that there has been a significant increase in the number of cancer patients over the last 100 years.  If you don't understand something enough to know what it is, you can't diagnose it.

Look at PTSD, it has gained quite a bit of awareness since the 1980's after people realized what the heck was going on.  However, I do think that some kids are being medicated that shouldn't.

On the waiving CPFT for obesity, that is one of those things that is specifically spelled out in the PT pamphlet:

Category II - Temporarily Restricted. A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to
be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature.
Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Cadets normally
will not exceed six months in this category without reevaluation.

I don't know that there is a specific definition or list of what consitutes a "disability," so I suppose we could use the same logic that Justice Potter Stewart used for obscenity - "I know it when I see it."

[DNall]

just like over diagnosing and over medicating kids.

That seems to be the case.

There is a medical def for obesity. Fat body gets out of PT = bad. Fat kid damages knees trying to make fixed run times = worse. I'd rather them lose the weight while doing moderate exercise building up to the standards than cause real long-term harm.

Disability is always going to get the widest possible definition. You still have to keep your program operating as well as possible and stay safe for them & others. If it crosses one of those lines then you can trim back a bit. All this needs to happen prior to joining, not after they're in the system. 

[wuzafuzz]

Kids with ADD and ADHD can benefit tremendously from the structure of a program such as CAP.  I recommend doing all you can to work with the youngsters in question.  You may very well be the person who makes all the difference in the world to them.  Kids with ADD and ADHD have some challenges to overcome if they are to be successful; they can use your help.

I have two sons who have been diagnosed with ADD.  My oldest son is a J-ROTC cadet at the local high school.  J-ROTC has inspired him in ways nothing else has.  It hasn't been a smooth ride, but it has been worth it.  My youngest son is a CAP and J-ROTC cadet and was diagnosed with ADD just two weeks ago.  Almost a year into his CAP experience he doesn't have many accomplishments under his belt.  Now that we know what we are tackling I hope he will benefit from cadet programs like his brother has.  

Parenting teens with ADD can be frustrating and challenging.  As a leader of cadets I watch other kids excel in ways my boys don't (so far).  But I'm not giving up and neither are their other leaders.  After all, we aren't providing medical care, we are mentoring them.  I am thankful for the opportunities they have in CAP and J-ROTC.  Their chances of joining the military are slim, but there are plenty of other reasons to participate in a cadet program.

For what it's worth, I was an ADD skeptic until my son was diagnosed.  We didn't want to believe it then.  Experience has proven the diagnosis accurate.  When I learned about my youngest a few weeks ago I was surprised again.  It displayed differently in each of them.  Don't lump all the kids with ADD or ADHD into the same stereotype.

Finally, there are plenty of people without ADD or ADHD conduct themselves far worse than anything I've seen from ADD/ADHD folks I've met.