Pushups = Hazing ??

[whatevah]

my mantra for this topic is... "let the punishment fit the crime".  if you follow that, you shouldn't have any hazing issues.

So, if a cadet loses his ID card at encampment, his job should be that he checks that everybody in his flight has an ID card when they leave the barracks, or something in that regard.

If a cadet shows up to meetings week in and week out with horrible boots, he should have to research proper shining techniques (tell him to come here and ask ), and give a short how-to class at a meeting to the rest of his flight.

And, no... if a cadet can't pass the PT test, you don't make him do 40 pushups every meeting to "help" him, or invent a "motivational policy" that makes people do unnecessary PT.  If you're having problems with cadets passing PT, ask a sports trainer or Phys Ed teacher to come by a meeting a give a class on proper training techniques.

[flying Raptor]

What if the cadet loses his ID and lies about it? I don't think he should have to push-ups, but you have a serious issue on your hands.

I'm afraid I am to being miss-understood. The perpose of doing push-ups isn't to teach them drill. It's to get them to pay attention when we are teaching them drill, if they pay attention and actually try then they will earn their reward. I am giving them something to strive for, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

As I see it, you have a predetermined number of push ups you will do for "average" performance in drill... If your cadets don't pay attention and mess up too much in drill your cadets have to do all 20 scheduled pushups... If your cadets pay attention and do well you will cut 10 push ups as a "reward" for good performance in drill... In effect it's still using the exercise as punishment because the cadets only get rewarded with less push ups if they do well... If they do poorly they will see having to do all 20 reps as punishment because of the reward factor.

I do not agree that doing push ups will teach them to pay attention during drill... Doing push ups might teach them how to do push ups, but it has no relation to drill and paying attention as doing something like knock out drill, Sgt Sez etc would during drill.

When you PT, PT to exercise and prepare for the CPFT... Don't have it be connected with some other non-related activity like drill where it will just be seen as a creative way to use exercise as punishment/corrective training.

I suppose everyone has their own way at looking at this subject, some see it as punishment, some see it as a reward. Just because you see it that way does it mean that its right? What I'm saying is push-ups can be a punishment or a reward, depending on type of attitude you have toward it, if you have a negative one then you think its punishment. If you have an optimistic view then you will enjoy it if the push-ups are given out for a reasonable perpose.

[Pace]

The way you're running it, it's still hazing.  Regardless of the reward side of your idea, it comes down to this:  If they do not perform to certain standards, they must do push-ups.  That's PT for punishment, plain and simple.  PT can be motivational.  If PT is schedule then do it, and have fun with it.  If you want to give them a break for a job well done then do it without telling them.  That way you don't have an established policy, and they will not expect the same treatment if they feel they've done well on another day.  Even then I wouldn't do this very often (basically they would have had to have done everything nearly perfect that day).

[MIKE]

I suppose everyone has their own way at looking at this subject, some see it as punishment, some see it as a reward. Just because you see it that way does it mean that its right? What I'm saying is push-ups can be a punishment or a reward, depending on type of attitude you have toward it, if you have a negative one then you think its punishment. If you have an optimistic view then you will enjoy it if the push-ups are given out for a reasonable perpose.

I think your argument is pretty transparent... I can see right through it and get right to the hazing.   

Any way you present it you are still using exercise (push ups) in an attempt to modify someones behavior, and in this particular case it involves an unrelated activity... The reward side is there, but because the reward side is there the punishment side will also be present = hazing.

[salassa72]

I was a cadet in the 80's... 86-88,
and we certainly DID do pushups, and lots of them.
We had some gungho guys in there that would make you do
them for sneezing, but they were not abused too much, if you asked me. 
And as a female sgt.  dropping a bunch of guys was kinda fun.  OK so I was twisted.  We all were.

I returned to my squadron after years of absence as a senior member now, and I have an 11 year old son who will be joining after his 12th bday in September, and they tell me "no pushups 'They' consider that "Hazing" . 
I am interested in seeing just how different things have become, but that I am sad to see that go.

I was quite taken aback.  I had groomed my son that this was not the boyscouts and its not going to be easy, but still fun... but I wanted him to have the same experience I had..
pain and all.

Atleast theres still PT! 

[whatevah]

pushups are still around, but for phsyical training purposes, not for punishment.  "the punishment must fit the crime"

making cadets do 5, 20 or even 100 pushups won't teach them how to shine their boots.  however, making them learn and then teach a class on proper boot shining techniques to their flight will definitely do it.

we haven't lost anything in removing pushups as a punishment, it simply makes the staff be more creative in assigning proper punishment for the "crimes" committed.

[abysmal]

I was a cadet in the 80's... 86-88,
and we certainly DID do pushups, and lots of them.
We had some gungho guys in there that would make you do
them for sneezing, but they were not abused too much, if you asked me. 
And as a female sgt.  dropping a bunch of guys was kinda fun.  OK so I was twisted.  We all were.

I returned to my squadron after years of absence as a senior member now, and I have an 11 year old son who will be joining after his 12th bday in September, and they tell me "no pushups 'They' consider that "Hazing" . 
I am interested in seeing just how different things have become, but that I am sad to see that go.

I was quite taken aback.  I had groomed my son that this was not the boyscouts and its not going to be easy, but still fun... but I wanted him to have the same experience I had..
pain and all.

Atleast theres still PT! 

Sounds JUST like my experience over the last 6 months or so.
Was a cadet back in the late 70's/early 80's, got out for a long time.
My son turned 12, I rejoined and was SHOCKED at how soft CAP had become.

I always thought that doing pushups had a BIG impact on my abilty to properly shine my boots, iron my uniform and study my materials.

But the great powers that be in our modern "Politically Correct" society have seen the error of our ways and made the required corrections.

CAP is still great for the kids, and offers plenty that scouts don't.
And so long as YOU get directly involved in the cadet side of things, then YOU can still drop YOUR son and have him knock out a few pushups..

[salassa72]

Yes, I have no problems with discipline in MY house believe me!

"Time to clean your room boys!
- SKIRMISH LINE !"


Anyway, I am SO glad to have CAP back in my life, though in many ways it never left!
Some of the changes have surprised me though!

[BillB]

Three years ago, there was a Reunion of former Florida Wing cadets of the 60's & 70's. They were shocked by the current "politically correct" Cadet Program.
Is there a place in CAP for cadets having to do puchups?  Probably not at the squadron level. But an encampment is a different matter. Should an encampment be a boot camp?  Probably to a degree. The reason being, the encampment has only one week to "undo" the errors in D&C given cadets at the Squadron level. Not all Squadrons have good instructors or offer the correct knowledge and leadership that can be foiund at an encampment.
And that is the key problem with the cadet program as envisioned by NHQ. They assume that the seniors running the cadet program at the Squadron level follow the 52-16 or other material. To often the DCC protects his or her cadets from imagined hazing or their sons and daughters from the nasty cadet staff. So the question still comes up, is CAP the Auxiliary of the USAF, a military service, or an advanced form of the Boy or Girl Scouts. During the 60's thru 80's this problem never occured, but in todays CAP, the leaderhip level of CAP as far as customs and courtesies is far lower.

[Greg]

Three years ago, there was a Reunion of former Florida Wing cadets of the 60's & 70's. They were shocked by the current "politically correct" Cadet Program.
Is there a place in CAP for cadets having to do puchups?  Probably not at the squadron level. But an encampment is a different matter. Should an encampment be a boot camp?  Probably to a degree.

I know Lt Col Doty (the guy with Rob Smith in the RST video), and I can remember some wisdom he related to me once...

He told me of a story where he was doing live RST in Massachusetts.  He asked the question "Who thinks encampment should be like boot camp?"  Most hands went up.  He then asked "Who has been to boot camp?"  A few seniors raised their hands.  He then asked the cadets "If you haven't been to boot camp, how do you know what it's like?"  One cadet raised his hand and said "Because I've seen Full Metal Jacket, sir."

[abysmal]

Having been to a couple cadet encampments back in the late 70s and having gone through boot in the US Army, I can say that the Cadet Encamptments gave me a good taste of what was coming. And all things considered, I was probably MUCH more stressed out at the Cadet encampments than I was at Boot..

There is a whole lot to do and a VERY short time to get it all done at encampment.

[BlueLakes1]

I was a cadet in the 80's... 86-88,
and we certainly DID do pushups, and lots of them.
We had some gungho guys in there that would make you do
them for sneezing, but they were not abused too much, if you asked me. 
And as a female sgt.  dropping a bunch of guys was kinda fun.  OK so I was twisted.  We all were.

I was in pretty much the same boat, I was a Cadet in KY from '86 to '89. Back then, getting dropped was an at least twice a week occurrence, and we never thought anything of it. I came back in as a Senior in Feb. 04, and when I found out that drops were now "verboten" during my CPPT class, I was shocked. Ahh, the bad old days.

...and oddly enough, we were dropped by the female Sgt. more than anyone else there too! 

[abysmal]

There is something very humbling about being a young male and getting droped by a superior female...

[SAR junkie]

I have a cadet that constantly back talks not only all my staff and myself but also our senior members. my mentor suggested taking away privilages like SAREXs and activities in general. he has been in for a good amount of time..about 5months. nothing seems to set this cadet straight. he doesnt respond to anything we have done. im not sure how to proceed at this point. i wish i could give push ups because his behaviour is completely inappropriate.
the fact that i am a female cadet commander does not help with motivating my cadets.

[Pace]

I ran into a cadet like that in AFJROTC.  He talked back not only to the cadet staff but also to the retired Air Force Chief Master Sergeant.  The Chief just laughed, pulled me to the side, and gave me some really good advice on how to deal with people like that: "No witnesses = no problems."  Yelling and giving push-ups was disallowed in my AFJROTC unit by the SASI, a retired Lt Col F-16 pilot.  However, five minutes of wall-to-wall counseling and 50 push-ups in a secluded area with no witnesses was all that cadet needed.  It wasn't the actual physical exercise that got him, it's the fact that in the back of his mind he knew we were capable of such actions so he didn't want to push his luck.  As long as cadets feel they can keeping pushing the boundaries and only get a simple slap on the wrist, they'll keep pushing.

DISCLAIMER:  I am NOT advocating this method's use in CAP.  It would be a clear and blatant violation of the cadet protection policy.  Even when I used it in AFJROTC, it was under the supervision and blessing of a retired CMSgt (unofficially) and it was an absolute last resort.  BTW, the Chief believed in letting the cadet staff handle all discipline problems.  He would only intervene if it was about to get physical, which never happened.


That being said, there are ways to break people down without ever raising your voice or having them break a sweat (at least not from PT).  Couple that with an official, strict counseling session filled with squadron top brass for intimidation purposes and usually people will realize they're way out of their league.  If they don't respond to logic and reason and you can't get their respect, fear works just as well until you can establish discipline or run them off.

[abysmal]

Something tells me that reply is going to bring this thread back to life...

But.
The things you can do within the bounds of the Cadet Protection Policy for a Cadet like this are BOUNDLESS.
Just be creative and use your imagination.

Rock Garden comes to mind.

[arajca]

I have a cadet that constantly back talks not only all my staff and myself but also our senior members. my mentor suggested taking away privilages like SAREXs and activities in general. he has been in for a good amount of time..about 5months. nothing seems to set this cadet straight. he doesnt respond to anything we have done. im not sure how to proceed at this point. i wish i could give push ups because his behaviour is completely inappropriate.
the fact that i am a female cadet commander does not help with motivating my cadets.

Gender should be irrelevent.

If the cadet staff cannot get this cadet to behave, involve the seniors - up to the commander. As this is done keep three things in mind - document, Document, DOCUMENT. Have written record for everything that takes place. Pull CAPF 50's on the cadet. If the cc can't set the cadet straight, suspend them until the cc talks to their parents. It may come down to recommending the cadet not renew or to a 2B action.

[Pace]

Before the flaming starts, let me clarify that I 1) was 16 and a brand new flight commander, 2) was "strongly urged" by the Chief to "handle" that cadet "without witnesses", 3) had tried every technique I knew at the time prior to that, and 4) never did that again.  The need never arose again, and I found better ways to handle cadets with poor attitudes.

I still use the fear method as an absolute last resort when NO ONE can fix the problem and something has to change.  The only time I can think of that I've had to use that was at encampment last summer (and no, I'm not going into details).  Let's just say that I don't tolerate well cadets who are in leadership positions that don't think the rules apply to them AND who make jokes about retired Vietnam combat veterans who received the Silver Star and Purple Heart.

As for advice on this situation, if the cadet staff can't solve the problem, there is a senior chain above you for a reason.  The DCC and CC should be adequately equipped to handle this if you can't.  Every time this cadet does something you have a problem with, document it.  Have a counseling session and document that too.  If the cadet is as bad as they sound, recommend that your DCC or CC speak with the parents and show them the documentation of their child's misbehavior.  CPPT doesn't apply at home where there are pissed off parents  .

[abysmal]

recommend that your DCC or CC speak with the parents and show them the documentation of their child's misbehavior.  CPPT doesn't apply at home where there are pissed off parents  .

Ooooo
Thats brutal.
Bringing in "Mommy and Daddy" is HARD CORE..
If that doesn't solve the problem, then its time for the mighty 2B.

[PWK-GT]

I have found the "Mommy and Daddy" routine mighty useful when dealing with this. I know of one nameless cadet who suddenly stopped showing up in a CORRECT uniform for weeks at a time. The C/LT in charge seemed not to notice, until a conversation was had pointing out that he too was in neglect of the situation. However, as mommy and daddy were paying the bills for his CAP involvement, they were outraged at the son when presented with a list of his disregards. It was simply stated to them that CAP is a volunteer basis, and if he wasn't going to take it seriously--why bother renewing?
Of course, I wonder how it escaped their eyes to begin with--as they always brought him to the meetings in his 'partial' uniform. Hit 'em in the pocketbook, and they always take notice!
I suspect he was on the receiving end of a blanket party shortly after he got home that night.