Last night I was told that under absolutely NO conditions can cadets, or elements or flights ever be required to do pushups (with the sole exception of the PT test) as this is now considered HAZING?
Is this written in black and white in one of the regs?
And if so, what on earth has happened to CAP to bring this on?
I seem to recall doing LOADS of pushups many years ago when I was a cadet, especially at encampments.
Found my own answer..
====================
Push-ups, laps, and other forms of exercise may not be used as a form of discipline in CAP. CAPR 52-10 explains this in section A3. It doesn't matter if the cadet officer, or whoever assigns push-ups, does it with the junior cadet -- exercise as a form of punishment is not authorized in any way. See Paragraph 1c (below)of CAP REGULATION 52-10 (E) CAP CADET PROTECTION POLICY. This regulation is the official policy on cadet protection for the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) and describes CAP's policies concerning the procedures for identifying, reporting, and responding to cadet abuse situations.
Paragraph 1c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a form of physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse must be followed.
Also see CAPR 52-16 CADET PROGRAM MANAGEMENT , 1-3b1 "Prohibitions"
b. Physical Fitness. Upon joining CAP, each cadet will initially be assigned to one of the physical fitness
categories defined in paragraph 1-7. Each cadet is expected to exercise regularly and participate in the unit's physical fitness program. During each achievement and milestone award (see paragraph 2-3b), all cadets in physical fitness Categories I, II, and III must take and pass the Cadet Physical Fitness Test (CPFT) events required of their physical fitness category, as described in CAPP 52-18, Cadet Physical Fitness Program. Commanders will also provide regular time on the training calendar for fitness training; simply administering the CPFT is not sufficient.
1) Prohibitions. Physical exercise in the Cadet Program will be used only to improve cadets' physical fitness while increasing confidence, teamwork, and determination. Fitness training will not be used as a form of punishment or as a vehicle to teach remedial discipline.
================================
But can anyone offer me some history on this.
For as long as I can remember doing pushups has ALWAYS been one of the simplest forms of re-inforcement to help anyone learn something in the military.
When did it become "Hazing" ?
It became hazing when it was abused solely to punish cadets for something they were not instructed on.
When it became the defacto policy to drop cadets instead of informing them what the did wrong and how to correct it, then drop them.
When senior cadets and senior members started doing "drive by drops". Walk past a group of cadets and drop them for no reason.
In short, when push ups were abused.
Quote from: abysmal on March 09, 2005, 12:05:53 AM
Last night I was told that under absolutely NO conditions can cadets, or elements or flights ever be required to do pushups (with the sole exception of the PT test) as this is now considered HAZING?
Is this written in black and white in one of the regs?
And if so, what on earth has happened to CAP to bring this on?
I seem to recall doing LOADS of pushups many years ago when I was a cadet, especially at encampments.
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......
Quote from: arajca on March 09, 2005, 12:26:16 AM
It became hazing when it was abused solely to punish cadets for something they were not instructed on.
When it became the defacto policy to drop cadets instead of informing them what the did wrong and how to correct it, then drop them.
When senior cadets and senior members started doing "drive by drops". Walk past a group of cadets and drop them for no reason.
In short, when push ups were abused.
Any idea of how many years back this change took place?
Quote from: Greg on March 09, 2005, 12:28:29 AM
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......
So I keep noticing each week!!
When did it become hazing?
Well, my old squadron quit doing 'em in late '98-99, and I recall hearing that it offically became hazing in the early '90's.
Quote from: Horn229 on March 09, 2005, 01:17:54 AMWhen did it become hazing?
Well, my old squadron quit doing 'em in late '98-99, and I recall hearing that it offically became hazing in the early '90's.
Try early 1980s. Before the cadets of today were even born!
Push-ups are perfectly acceptable as part of a scheduled, organized PT session. They are not acceptable as punishment. That's about all there is to it, really.
Quote from: justin_bailey on March 09, 2005, 02:16:38 AM[backquote redacted] Try early 1980s. Before the cadets of today were even born!
Push-ups are perfectly acceptable as part of a scheduled, organized PT session. They are not acceptable as punishment. That's about all there is to it, really.
I guess it depended on your wing. NJWG strongly discouraged that behaviour as far back as the 60s, and and MEWG in the 70s. Guess we were ahead of our time back then.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 09, 2005, 08:42:32 AM
Quote from: justin_bailey on March 09, 2005, 02:16:38 AM[backquote redacted] Try early 1980s. Before the cadets of today were even born!
Push-ups are perfectly acceptable as part of a scheduled, organized PT session. They are not acceptable as punishment. That's about all there is to it, really.
I guess it depended on your wing. NJWG strongly discouraged that behaviour as far back as the 60s, and and MEWG in the 70s. Guess we were ahead of our time back then.
I was a cadet back in 1979-81 and it seems like it was pretty much the norm in California back then.
Quote from: Greg on March 09, 2005, 12:28:29 AM
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......
Unfortunately...
I could not agree more.
I can not imagine what would happen to Basic Training if the Military could not use such a simple tool as the "Front Leaning Rest".
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on March 10, 2005, 09:55:11 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 09, 2005, 12:28:29 AM
CAP now is very different than CAP then.......
Unfortunately...
Would it make you feel better if someone ordered you to "Drop!"?
Front leaning rest... Move! :)
Quote from: abysmal on March 10, 2005, 10:35:29 PM
I could not agree more.
I can not imagine what would happen to Basic Training if the Military could not use such a simple tool as the "Front Leaning Rest".
One very important point to keep in mind when attepting to compare military training to CAP training - military instructors spend a long time in training before facing students. That includes when and when not to use pt for discilpine. Drill sgts - from what I was told - spend a year learning how train recruits before being assigned to a training unit. They then spend several months as "cadre" observing and assisting experienced drill sgts before they are considered sufficiently trained to train recruits. Also, with very few exceptions, recruits are not dropped for making a mistake unless they have been training on the correct way to do something. Even then, the recruit is told the correct way to do whatever they did incorrectly.
CAP does not have the ability to do this depth of training. As a result, CAP members have misused the push-up for discipline.
Can't argue with a word of what you said.
Its the truth and it appears it was abused.
nevertheless we have lost a very effective training tool.
Quote from: abysmal on March 10, 2005, 11:16:54 PM
Can't argue with a word of what you said.
Its the truth and it appears it was abused.
nevertheless we have lost a very effective training tool.
WIWAC, it wasn't an effective training tool because of how it was misused. "Drive by Drops", failing to inform the cadet how to correct the offending action, etc. Instead, we have been forced to develop appropriate corrective actions. Or at least some did.
I think the bottom line is that push-ups were not only abused, but they don't teach Cadet Snuffy to shine his boots better, or how to iron his uniform, or how to salute an officer, etc.
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:43:54 AM
I think the bottom line is that push-ups were not only abused, but they don't teach Cadet Snuffy to shine his boots better, or how to iron his uniform, or how to salute an officer, etc.
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 03:10:43 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:43:54 AM
I think the bottom line is that push-ups were not only abused, but they don't teach Cadet Snuffy to shine his boots better, or how to iron his uniform, or how to salute an officer, etc.
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet". Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.
Take a look at this article... (http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118)
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet". Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.
Take a look at this article... (http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118)
It was SOOO much easier on active duty in the 82nd.
Everyone Wanted to be there and fought hard to get a slot.
The personal motivational levels were always High to begin with....
Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet". Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.
Take a look at this article... (http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118)
It was SOOO much easier on active duty in the 82nd.
Everyone Wanted to be there and fought hard to get a slot.
The personal motivational levels were always High to begin with....
I sure hope so! Take a look at what it takes to even be in the 82nd! Actually, take a look at what it takes to even get into the military period. You either have to spend nine weeks (i think) at BMT, or you have to do ROTC or one of the Academies. Any one of those decisions takes a lot of fore-thought and then a high level of dedication to see it through. If you're in the military, the chances are, you really want to be there.
However, in CAP, all you have to do to join is fill out a form. I'm sure we both know of plenty of cadets who joined, and then found out that CAP just wasn't for them, and then quit. What you get out of CAP is directly proportional to your dedication what you put into CAP, and the chances are that a cadet who has a loser attitude and refuses to salute an officer isn't very dedicated, and therefore, isn't getting much out of CAP (and probably doesn't care, either).
I can see how it's hard to adjust though. I attended Hawk after I attended PJOC. BIG MISTAKE. I reacted a lot with the cadets there who would complain about PT being too hard or something. I think I even said "Just shut up and do it- we did this when we were bored at PJOC" to a cadet once.
The bottom line that I was missing was this: We weren't at PJOC, so I shouldn't hold a cadet to PJOC standards. Even so, CAP is hardly anything near the 82nd Airborne, so try not to compair us to the 82nd Airborne, as hard as that may be. :)
Like I said, things have changed ALOT in the 20 years since I was a Cadet.
We were pretty much "Hard Chargers" back then, or at least the small group that I hung with.
I would be very happy if I could just cultivate a couple really dedicated Cadets that would set their sites on the Spatz and start working on getting there.
It seems like such an ATTAINABLE goal to me.
But motivating them to see that is a whole nother story....
Much to learn on my part..
Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 07:21:35 PM
I would be very happy if I could just cultivate a couple really dedicated Cadets that would set their sites on the Spatz and start working on getting there.
It seems like such an ATTAINABLE goal to me.
But motivating them to see that is a whole nother story....
There are two A's in Spaatz boys.
The plaque for the Eaker cadets is in the ladies room. ;D
Kidding aside... As a CP senior don't focus on getting cadets to Spaatz... Focus on providing a quality cadet program which produces quality cadets of all grades... Some cadets may set Spaatz as a personal goal... Provide an environment that can help them reach it.
IMO getting promoted every two months and getting Spaatz isn't what the program is all about... If you are cranking ranks you might be able to pass the tests but are you really "getting it". IMO it's what you learned along the way that matters not how far you got or how fast you got there.
I agree with Mike's thoughts on this. I think the Spaatz is really more of a personal goal. There hasn't been a Spaatz cadet in this group in quite a long time - I haven't known of one since 1997. However, over those years this Group has turned out plenty of fine cadets with incredible leadership skills, experience, and other skills and interests as a result of the CAP Cadet Program.
There are a number of cadets who do quite well, learn a vast amount of what is available to them, and yet never "crank the rank" to Cadet Colonel. Sure, it is attainable. However, when I was a cadet it was not something I was particularly interested in either. It seemed more worthwhile to gain experience in more hands on manners.
YMMV. :)
Both of you are essentially correct in what your saying.
BUT...
The opposite holds just as true.
When a cadet makes it to a rank and then just STOPS all progression.
Just how many years should a cadet stay a 2nd Lt and make no further rank progress.???
Making rank is NOT all that hard.
It just requires a small bit of desire and some matching work/effort to be put forth.
A C/2d Lt who has decided to stop promoted has also decide NOT to follow CAP regs. CAP requires cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions - per year. A cadet can be 2b'd for failure to progress. Whether a commander takes it that far is entirely up to them.
In writing an expectations letter for the cadet commander, I specifically stated they are expected to meet this (which probably shouldn't need saying, but I did anyway) and exceeding this minimum is strongly encouraged. As expectations letters are developed for each cadet staff position, that will be included. One thing I am looking at is failure to progress will result in removal from cadet staff - unless the cadet has completed the Spaatz.
Quote from: arajca on March 11, 2005, 10:34:46 PM
A C/2d Lt who has decided to stop promoted has also decide NOT to follow CAP regs. CAP requires cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions - per year. A cadet can be 2b'd for failure to progress. Whether a commander takes it that far is entirely up to them.
In writing an expectations letter for the cadet commander, I specifically stated they are expected to meet this (which probably shouldn't need saying, but I did anyway) and exceeding this minimum is strongly encouraged. As expectations letters are developed for each cadet staff position, that will be included. One thing I am looking at is failure to progress will result in removal from cadet staff - unless the cadet has completed the Spaatz.
The more I learn the more I realize just how little I know...
I am doing my best to get all 5 of my LTs to get their SDAs done.
That seems to be the #1 stumbling block for all of them to move on to their 1st Lt rank.
Can you site me the reg that stipulates the "cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions - per year"???
I would like to read that and relate it to all of them.
Quote from: abysmal
The more I learn the more I realize just how little I know...
I am doing my best to get all 5 of my LTs to get their SDAs done.
That seems to be the #1 stumbling block for all of them to move on to their 1st Lt rank.
Can you site me the reg that stipulates the "cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions - per year"???
I would like to read that and relate it to all of them.
Sure. The Cadet Programs Manual is an excellent resource for information on how to run CP. It's available online, like all CAP manuals and regulations.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 Cadet Programs - Section 2-3, G
Page 8:
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3).
There it is. Plain and simple english! :)
CAPR 35-3 is just what I was looking for.
THANKS.
Quote from: Pylon on March 11, 2005, 11:43:34 PM
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 Cadet Programs - Section 2-3, G
Page 8:
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3).
Not a lot of meat in there.
CAPR 35-3 (C2) (IMC 90-1) (E)
SECTION A - CADETS
3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
b. Failure to progress satisfactorily in the CAP cadet
program.
c. Lack of interest demonstrated by failure to attend three
successive regular meetings without an acceptable excuse.
Quote from: Pylon on March 11, 2005, 11:43:34 PM
Sure. The Cadet Programs Manual is an excellent resource for information on how to run CP. It's available online, like all CAP manuals and regulations.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 Cadet Programs - Section 2-3, G
Page 8:
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3).
CAP REGULATION 52-16 (E)
CHAPTER 2 – PROGRAM ADMINISTRATION
2-3 PROGRESSION.
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3).
I put the "two acheivements not promotions" bit in because cadet airmen and NCO's get promoted with each acheivement (excluding the Armstrong), but cadet officers have two acheivements per promotion. Many members (seniors and cadets) forget that part.
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 05:16:42 PM
Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet". Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.
Take a look at this article... (http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118)
It was SOOO much easier on active duty in the 82nd.
Everyone Wanted to be there and fought hard to get a slot.
The personal motivational levels were always High to begin with....
I sure hope so! Take a look at what it takes to even be in the 82nd! Actually, take a look at what it takes to even get into the military period. You either have to spend nine weeks (i think) at BMT, or you have to do ROTC or one of the Academies. Any one of those decisions takes a lot of fore-thought and then a high level of dedication to see it through. If you're in the military, the chances are, you really want to be there.
However, in CAP, all you have to do to join is fill out a form. I'm sure we both know of plenty of cadets who joined, and then found out that CAP just wasn't for them, and then quit. What you get out of CAP is directly proportional to your dedication what you put into CAP, and the chances are that a cadet who has a loser attitude and refuses to salute an officer isn't very dedicated, and therefore, isn't getting much out of CAP (and probably doesn't care, either).
I can see how it's hard to adjust though. I attended Hawk after I attended PJOC. BIG MISTAKE. I reacted a lot with the cadets there who would complain about PT being too hard or something. I think I even said "Just shut up and do it- we did this when we were bored at PJOC" to a cadet once.
The bottom line that I was missing was this: We weren't at PJOC, so I shouldn't hold a cadet to PJOC standards. Even so, CAP is hardly anything near the 82nd Airborne, so try not to compair us to the 82nd Airborne, as hard as that may be. :)
I LOVE TO SEE CADETS DO PUSHUPS THE MORE THE BETTER...AND PERSONALLY I DO NOT THINK OF IT AS HAZING... :o
Quote from: arajca on March 12, 2005, 01:55:59 AM
I put the "two acheivements not promotions" bit in because cadet airmen and NCO's get promoted with each acheivement (excluding the Armstrong), but cadet officers have two acheivements per promotion. Many members (seniors and cadets) forget that part.
I would love to go to a weekend training just to get an idea of all things that i don't even know that i don't know yet...
Quote from: abysmal
I would love to go to a weekend training just to get an idea of all things that i don't even know that i don't know yet...
Squadron Leadership School is what you want. :)
It's a weekend Senior Member training that will orient you to all aspects of running CAP at the squadron level. They cover programs, regulations, practices, and all that good stuff. Plus, you'll need it to get promoted eventually anyways - so might as well.
Check this schedule (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/fattach_get.php?p_sid=ZnPpEfAh&p_tbl=9&p_id=1062&p_created=1109966871) to find all the upcoming sessions of SLS.
Thanks for the pointer.
Doesn't look like there is anything coming to my wing, but i just missed one in New Mexico last weekend. Typical!
Quote from: abysmal on March 13, 2005, 05:09:51 AM
Thanks for the pointer.
Doesn't look like there is anything coming to my wing, but i just missed one in New Mexico last weekend. Typical!
Sorry to stray off topic, but being in Lake Havasu City, aren't you closer to Nevada and California than New Mexico? Up there in the northwest corner of the state?
Most of my experience with Arizona is the complete opposite end (southeast corner).
Pretty much.
I am right on the California border, just across the river. and Nevada is just an hour away as well.
In my ever so humble opinion, it's better that we can't drop Cadets for pushups. As has been mentioned previously, it becomes like a crutch. After all, it's a lot easier to just say "DROP!" than to actually fix the problem.
Since we can't use pushups, we're forced to be creative. This requires some thought, which forces us to stop and *GASP!* think. Sometimes this may come in the form of "Has this Cadet been properly trained?" or "He seemed upset when he came in -- is this Cadet having trouble at home or school?" You know, actually thinking beyond "I need to make sure this Cadet remembers to salute me next time, and I can do this with the assistance of the front leaning rest."
It is incredibly easy to just yell at a Cadet to drop, without explaining the infraction, or how the Cadet can fix it. Since we don't have the option of PT for punishment, we are forced to (in theory) actually face the problem and gain experience working with people and solving problems.
The CAP Cadet Program is a youth development program. We aren't the Future Soldiers of America. Sure, some Cadets go on to serve in the military, but about the Cadet who is destined to be a manager at Wal-Mart? That's a great job that contributes to society, but he can't drop a cashier for pushups, can he? If we're trying to train leaders, we need to equip those young leaders with tools they can use when they leave our leadership laboratory and enter the real world.
Don't get me wrong, I've certainly faced situations when I absolutely wanted to smoke a Cadet. But since I was required by regulation to deal with those issues in another manner, I grew as a leader, and all of us grew as human beings.
Of course, your mileage may vary. :)
Quote from: Briski on March 17, 2005, 03:28:31 AM
, but about the Cadet who is destined to be a manager at Wal-Mart? That's a great job that contributes to society, but he can't drop a cashier for pushups, can he?
Can you just IMAGINE the change in Walmart if a customer could walk in there and tell a poor cashier who doesn't know how to make change to "Drop, and knock out 10"!!!
Ohhhhh, the sheeeer joy of it!! <VBG>
Quote from: Briski on March 17, 2005, 03:28:31 AM
In my ever so humble opinion, it's better that we can't drop Cadets for pushups. As has been mentioned previously, it becomes like a crutch. After all, it's a lot easier to just say "DROP!" than to actually fix the problem.
Since we can't use pushups, we're forced to be creative. This requires some thought, which forces us to stop and *GASP!* think. Sometimes this may come in the form of "Has this Cadet been properly trained?" or "He seemed upset when he came in -- is this Cadet having trouble at home or school?" You know, actually thinking beyond "I need to make sure this Cadet remembers to salute me next time, and I can do this with the assistance of the front leaning rest."
It is incredibly easy to just yell at a Cadet to drop, without explaining the infraction, or how the Cadet can fix it. Since we don't have the option of PT for punishment, we are forced to (in theory) actually face the problem and gain experience working with people and solving problems.
The CAP Cadet Program is a youth development program. We aren't the Future Soldiers of America. Sure, some Cadets go on to serve in the military, but about the Cadet who is destined to be a manager at Wal-Mart? That's a great job that contributes to society, but he can't drop a cashier for pushups, can he? If we're trying to train leaders, we need to equip those young leaders with tools they can use when they leave our leadership laboratory and enter the real world.
Don't get me wrong, I've certainly faced situations when I absolutely wanted to smoke a Cadet. But since I was required by regulation to deal with those issues in another manner, I grew as a leader, and all of us grew as human beings.
Of course, your mileage may vary. :)
Wow - excellent explanation, Capt. Briski! You hit the nail right on the head and gave perfectly laid out reasoning. Thank you. :)
Quote from: abysmal on March 17, 2005, 02:40:23 PM
Can you just IMAGINE the change in Walmart if a customer could walk in there and tell a poor cashier who doesn't know how to make change to "Drop, and knock out 10"!!!
Ohhhhh, the sheeeer joy of it!! <VBG>
I want to join the Super Market Elite! ;D
Quote from: Briski on March 18, 2005, 02:46:54 AM
I want to join the Super Market Elite! ;D
Lets hope all the time your spending in CAP will prevent that from occuring.
If you were to shedule PT everyday. Not as punishment but as to build the cadets' strength, endurence and self-confidence. If the Flt performs well that day then they only have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20. Is this hazing? The regulation says PT must be shedule for it not to be hazing. You are not punishing the cadets for poor performance, its just part of the daily shedule. If they do well then they get a reward. This PT doesn't have to be push-ups, it can be a 0.5 mile run, jumping jacks, curl-ups.
Last year at encampment 3 cadets lost their ID cards and lied about it. The staff found out about it and made the entire Flt stand with their arms out for a long period of time. I had no problem with this, I feel the Flt is a team and should be treated as a team. You win as a team and you fail as a team. I didn't see this as hazing and didn't hear any complaints from the other Flt members.
Read page 2 of the September 2002 Cadet Programs Today. You'll find it in the archives.
The article(s) that 1st Lt Johnston directed you to are excellent. However, they don't come right out and say that your idea is a violation of CPP. Let's take a moment to look at the logic of your idea.
If I understand it properly, you are suggesting that (specifically in an encampment environment) a Flight Commander establish policy that at the end of the day, the flight will do, say, 20 pushups. If the Cadets work hard, do well, and function as a team, the Flight Commander may choose to reduce the amount of pushups to maybe 10. I see the point that it is a system of rewarding the Cadets by subtracting the number of pushups for performing well, instead of adding pushups as punishment for screwing up. It will, however, still be seen by the Cadets as a system of punishment. If they have to do 20 pushups at the end of the day instead of 15, they will all know that they screwed up, and that's the reason they have to do so many pushups. Sure, it's like the reverse of spontaneous PT for punishment, but it is still using pushups as a form of punishment, plain and simple.
Speaking from my own (admittedly limited) experience on Encampment Staff, you are absolutely right in that a flight needs to work as a team, but there are far better ways of encouraging teamwork. One of the ways my Flight Staff handled it last summer was that they prepared one staff member's personal area for inspection with the entire flight observing, and then they had the entire flight work together, with their guidance, on preparing the other staff member's personal area. Then the Basics were released to their rooms to help their roommates prepare for inspection, and the Flight Staff went from room to room in order to offer guidance as necessary. Halfway through the week, our squadron blew the other squadrons out of the water on room inspections, because the flights worked together as teams -- without having been hazed by their Flight Staff.
As always, your mileage may vary. Per CAPR 52-10, it shouldn't vary much...
Quote from: Briski on March 17, 2005, 03:28:31 AMIn my ever so humble opinion, it's better that we can't drop Cadets for pushups.
Yup. The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with. I would recommend the same instructional, motivational, and correctional methods under CPP as I would if CPP did not exist.
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.
So the answer would be: no it is not hazing but the cadets Will See it as punishment, and there are different ways of motivating and disciplining?
Quote from: flying Raptor on April 19, 2005, 03:32:36 PM
If you were to shedule PT everyday. Not as punishment but as to build the cadets' strength, endurence and self-confidence. If the Flt performs well that day then they only have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20. Is this hazing? The regulation says PT must be shedule for it not to be hazing. You are not punishing the cadets for poor performance, its just part of the daily shedule. If they do well then they get a reward. This PT doesn't have to be push-ups, it can be a 0.5 mile run, jumping jacks, curl-ups.
What is the purpose of the activity? Is it to help build strength? Is it to promote and practice the correct method of doing <fill in exercise here>? Is it to allow the cadet staff to use <fill in exercise here> as a punishment/reward tool for behaviors and actions not related to the exercise?
For exercise, and to motivate the cadets to better. When they know they have the option to do less push-ups by performing as a team, ect. they will do so. I know most cadets would like to do less PT. We do something like this in our HG and it works outstandingly well, but that may be b/c most of us are Academy motivated and have no problem doing PT. The more PT the better! I love PT! :)
But thanks for your input, this really helps.
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 19, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with.
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.
I disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
Physical Exercise administered in a non-abusive way can be a Powerful Motivator for both the individual as well as all the members of his team.
Anyone that has been through Boot Camp, or Airborne School or Ranger, SF, PJ, etc.. can affirm this basic truth.
For Liability reasons CAP no longer allows us to use this tool in the training of Cadets.
So be it.
But that most certainly has NO bearing on its efficacy as a training/motivating tool.
Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PM
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 19, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with.
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.
I disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
Physical Exercise administered in a non-abusive way can be a Powerful Motivator for both the individual as well as all the members of his team.
Anyone that has been through Boot Camp, or Airborne School or Ranger, SF, PJ, etc.. can affirm this basic truth.
For Liability reasons CAP no longer allows us to use this tool in the training of Cadets.
So be it.
But that most certainly has NO bearing on its efficacy as a training/motivating tool.
Yes this is the attitude I have towards PT.
Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PM
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 19, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The options that the Cadet Protection Policy prohibits are options that are not effective to begin with.
Leadership is the art of influence, not the administration of punishment.
I disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
Physical Exercise administered in a non-abusive way can be a Powerful Motivator for both the individual as well as all the members of his team.
Anyone that has been through Boot Camp, or Airborne School or Ranger, SF, PJ, etc.. can affirm this basic truth.
For Liability reasons CAP no longer allows us to use this tool in the training of Cadets.
So be it.
But that most certainly has NO bearing on its efficacy as a training/motivating tool.
Properly applied, you are correct. And those military instructors go through ALOT of training to make sure they know how and when to use it, and, perhaps of greater importance - when not to use it.
In CAP, the proper training was not provided, and tool was abused. As such, it became an ineffective training tool FOR CIVIL AIR PATROL. As is said around mechanical and engineering circles - "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is amazing how every problem seems to become a nail."
Quote from: flying Raptor on April 19, 2005, 09:42:06 PM
For exercise, and to motivate the cadets to better. When they know they have the option to do less push-ups by performing as a team, ect. they will do so. I know most cadets would like to do less PT. We do something like this in our HG and it works outstandingly well, but that may be b/c most of us are Academy motivated and have no problem doing PT. The more PT the better! I love PT! :)
But thanks for your input, this really helps.
So you're going to punish the cadets for not performing to your expectations by making them do the full amount of pt. Unless the objective or expectation they are being 'rewarded' for is related to the exercise, you are hazing the cadets - according to CAP rules.
"If you cadets can maintain formation and keep in step today, you will only have to do 10 push ups instead of 20 tonight." Tell me exactly how the 'reward' is related to the performance. The threat of having to do the full amount of push ups is not acceptable motivation as push ups are not related to drill. Using the same example but changing the "you will only..." to "we will not have to the extra hour of drill practice tonight and you will have it as free time" is acceptable since you are rewarding the cadets aknowledging their proficiency in drill by letting them have more free time instead of practicing drill.
As I explained earlier, it is a reward. It takes more than just keeping in step, you have to do an outstanding job, for doing the outstanding job they don't have to do..whatever. This is not punishment. We are not saying " Since you guys did poorly today we are going to do all of the PT". On days like that we just do regular PT without implying that they did poorly and that the PT is just part of the day and encourage them to do better. On days where the do well it would go something like this "You have done and outstanding job today,therefore you have have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20". Just like "Since you guys have performed well in drill, you don't have to practice it anymore giving you more free time."
I am on their side. I want to help them pass and give them less PT, however i need them to be on this level with me. If they aren't motivated then they won't be there.
Quote from: flying Raptor on April 19, 2005, 11:07:28 PM
As I explained earlier, it is a reward. It takes more than just keeping in step, you have to do an outstanding job, for doing the outstanding job they don't have to do..whatever. This is not punishment. We are not saying " Since you guys did poorly today we are going to do all of the PT". On days like that we just do regular PT without implying that they did poorly and that the PT is just part of the day and encourage them to do better. On days where the do well it would go something like this "You have done and outstanding job today,therefore you have have to do 10 push-ups instead of 20". Just like "Since you guys have performed well in drill, you don't have to practice it anymore giving you more free time."
I am on their side. I want to help them pass and give them less PT, however i need them to be on this level with me. If they aren't motivated then they won't be there.
No, you are saying they did a poor job because they wouldn't be doing all the PT if they hadn't. How does PT help them do better drill? What does pushups do for them that helps them learn better drill?
More importantly, if cadets can't do 20 pushups without difficulty, there's some issues there. How does that help them period?
Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PMI disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
What "arajca" said, and...
What is the purpose of basic training, Airborne school, and the like?
What is the purpose of the CAP cadet program?
Comparing military training programs to our cadet program is somewhat apples and oranges.
Military training programs require superb physical conditioning, and are preparing the individual to fight. Sure, there are other lessons as well (core values, teamwork, etc.), but the purpose of those schools is to teach you how to be an airman/soldier/sailor/Marine, and how to operate in a combat environment.
CAP's training programs, on the other hand, are leadership laboratories for young adults that (usually) have an interest in aerospace, and who desire the military command model.
Physical punishment and/or hazing is not required, nor is it a desired option, to fulfill the goals of the cadet program.
And, of course, I echo the statements of others that the trainers in those military schools you mentioned have all undergone extensive training in their craft. They don't use physical punishment for the sake of physical punishment, it is accompanied with reasons and an underlying lesson to learn.
When I've seen it implemented in CAP, it's always been the cadet leader wishing to abuse his subordinates, not teach them a lesson.
You will get ZERO argument from me on the issue of Prior Propper Training of the trainer.
I could not agree more with that sentiment.
As for the complexion of the cadets, most of the cadets that I have that are "Achievers" are clearly in CAP because they plan on a military career. Which was the same reason I was a cadet back in 79. And from whats left of my aging memory, most of my fellow cadets back then were heading for the military as well.
I know for a fact that quite a few of my cadets have utterly no interest in aviation at all.
They are heading for Army, Marines and Navy.
Come to think of it, I am not sure I have a single cadet that is aiming for service in the Air Force.
But I digress..
One man's punishment, is another trainer's positive reinforcement to assuage improper actions.
I don't recall being "Punished" for doing something wrong, but being given lots of opportunities to reinforce the correct course of action.
Nevertheless I do think we ALL agree that we all need better training, and that that seems to be a major lacking area in CAP.
Quote from: justin_bailey on April 20, 2005, 06:33:50 PM
Quote from: abysmal on April 19, 2005, 09:45:02 PMI disagree, and I think I have a couple Thousand years of military training on my side to back me up.
What "arajca" said, and...
What is the purpose of basic training, Airborne school, and the like?
What is the purpose of the CAP cadet program?
Comparing military training programs to our cadet program is somewhat apples and oranges.
Military training programs require superb physical conditioning, and are preparing the individual to fight. Sure, there are other lessons as well (core values, teamwork, etc.), but the purpose of those schools is to teach you how to be an airman/soldier/sailor/Marine, and how to operate in a combat environment.
CAP's training programs, on the other hand, are leadership laboratories for young adults that (usually) have an interest in aerospace, and who desire the military command model.
Physical punishment and/or hazing is not required, nor is it a desired option, to fulfill the goals of the cadet program.
And, of course, I echo the statements of others that the trainers in those military schools you mentioned have all undergone extensive training in their craft. They don't use physical punishment for the sake of physical punishment, it is accompanied with reasons and an underlying lesson to learn.
When I've seen it implemented in CAP, it's always been the cadet leader wishing to abuse his subordinates, not teach them a lesson.
I'm afraid I am being miss-understood. The perpose of doing push-ups isn't to teach them drill. It's to get them to pay attention when we are teaching them drill, if they pay attention and actully try then they will earn their reward. I am giving them something to strive for, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Quote from: flying Raptor on April 21, 2005, 02:07:38 AM
I'm afraid I am to being miss-understood. The perpose of doing push-ups isn't to teach them drill. It's to get them to pay attention when we are teaching them drill, if they pay attention and actully try then they will earn their reward. I am giving them something to strive for, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
As I see it, you have a predetermined number of push ups you will do for "average" performance in drill... If your cadets don't pay attention and mess up too much in drill your cadets have to do all 20 scheduled pushups... If your cadets pay attention and do well you will cut 10 push ups as a "reward" for good performance in drill... In effect it's still using the exercise as punishment because the cadets only get rewarded with less push ups if they do well... If they do poorly they will see having to do all 20 reps as punishment because of the reward factor.
I do not agree that doing push ups will teach them to pay attention during drill... Doing push ups might teach them how to do push ups, but it has no relation to drill and paying attention as doing something like knock out drill, Sgt Sez etc would during drill.
When you PT, PT to exercise and prepare for the CPFT... Don't have it be connected with some other non-related activity like drill where it will just be seen as a creative way to use exercise as punishment/corrective training.
my mantra for this topic is... "let the punishment fit the crime". if you follow that, you shouldn't have any hazing issues.
So, if a cadet loses his ID card at encampment, his job should be that he checks that everybody in his flight has an ID card when they leave the barracks, or something in that regard.
If a cadet shows up to meetings week in and week out with horrible boots, he should have to research proper shining techniques (tell him to come here and ask ;)), and give a short how-to class at a meeting to the rest of his flight.
And, no... if a cadet can't pass the PT test, you don't make him do 40 pushups every meeting to "help" him, or invent a "motivational policy" that makes people do unnecessary PT. If you're having problems with cadets passing PT, ask a sports trainer or Phys Ed teacher to come by a meeting a give a class on proper training techniques.
What if the cadet loses his ID and lies about it? I don't think he should have to push-ups, but you have a serious issue on your hands.
Quote from: MIKE on April 21, 2005, 02:50:34 AM
Quote from: flying Raptor on April 21, 2005, 02:07:38 AM
I'm afraid I am to being miss-understood. The perpose of doing push-ups isn't to teach them drill. It's to get them to pay attention when we are teaching them drill, if they pay attention and actually try then they will earn their reward. I am giving them something to strive for, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
As I see it, you have a predetermined number of push ups you will do for "average" performance in drill... If your cadets don't pay attention and mess up too much in drill your cadets have to do all 20 scheduled pushups... If your cadets pay attention and do well you will cut 10 push ups as a "reward" for good performance in drill... In effect it's still using the exercise as punishment because the cadets only get rewarded with less push ups if they do well... If they do poorly they will see having to do all 20 reps as punishment because of the reward factor.
I do not agree that doing push ups will teach them to pay attention during drill... Doing push ups might teach them how to do push ups, but it has no relation to drill and paying attention as doing something like knock out drill, Sgt Sez etc would during drill.
When you PT, PT to exercise and prepare for the CPFT... Don't have it be connected with some other non-related activity like drill where it will just be seen as a creative way to use exercise as punishment/corrective training.
I suppose everyone has their own way at looking at this subject, some see it as punishment, some see it as a reward. Just because you see it that way does it mean that its right? What I'm saying is push-ups can be a punishment or a reward, depending on type of attitude you have toward it, if you have a negative one then you think its punishment. If you have an optimistic view then you will enjoy it if the push-ups are given out for a reasonable perpose.
The way you're running it, it's still hazing. Regardless of the reward side of your idea, it comes down to this: If they do not perform to certain standards, they must do push-ups. That's PT for punishment, plain and simple. PT can be motivational. If PT is schedule then do it, and have fun with it. If you want to give them a break for a job well done then do it without telling them. That way you don't have an established policy, and they will not expect the same treatment if they feel they've done well on another day. Even then I wouldn't do this very often (basically they would have had to have done everything nearly perfect that day).
Quote from: flying Raptor on April 21, 2005, 04:26:06 PM
I suppose everyone has their own way at looking at this subject, some see it as punishment, some see it as a reward. Just because you see it that way does it mean that its right? What I'm saying is push-ups can be a punishment or a reward, depending on type of attitude you have toward it, if you have a negative one then you think its punishment. If you have an optimistic view then you will enjoy it if the push-ups are given out for a reasonable perpose.
I think your argument is pretty transparent... I can see right through it and get right to the hazing. ;) ;D
Any way you present it you are still using exercise (push ups) in an attempt to modify someones behavior, and in this particular case it involves an unrelated activity... The reward side is there, but because the reward side is there the punishment side will also be present = hazing.
I was a cadet in the 80's... 86-88,
and we certainly DID do pushups, and lots of them.
We had some gungho guys in there that would make you do
them for sneezing, but they were not abused too much, if you asked me.
And as a female sgt. dropping a bunch of guys was kinda fun. OK so I was twisted. We all were.
I returned to my squadron after years of absence as a senior member now, and I have an 11 year old son who will be joining after his 12th bday in September, and they tell me "no pushups 'They' consider that "Hazing" . :o
I am interested in seeing just how different things have become, but that I am sad to see that go.
I was quite taken aback. I had groomed my son that this was not the boyscouts and its not going to be easy, but still fun... but I wanted him to have the same experience I had..
pain and all.
Atleast theres still PT! ;D
pushups are still around, but for phsyical training purposes, not for punishment. "the punishment must fit the crime"
making cadets do 5, 20 or even 100 pushups won't teach them how to shine their boots. however, making them learn and then teach a class on proper boot shining techniques to their flight will definitely do it.
we haven't lost anything in removing pushups as a punishment, it simply makes the staff be more creative in assigning proper punishment for the "crimes" committed. :)
Quote from: salassa72 on June 06, 2005, 06:15:03 PM
I was a cadet in the 80's... 86-88,
and we certainly DID do pushups, and lots of them.
We had some gungho guys in there that would make you do
them for sneezing, but they were not abused too much, if you asked me.
And as a female sgt. dropping a bunch of guys was kinda fun. OK so I was twisted. We all were.
I returned to my squadron after years of absence as a senior member now, and I have an 11 year old son who will be joining after his 12th bday in September, and they tell me "no pushups 'They' consider that "Hazing" . :o
I am interested in seeing just how different things have become, but that I am sad to see that go.
I was quite taken aback. I had groomed my son that this was not the boyscouts and its not going to be easy, but still fun... but I wanted him to have the same experience I had..
pain and all.
Atleast theres still PT! ;D
Sounds JUST like my experience over the last 6 months or so.
Was a cadet back in the late 70's/early 80's, got out for a long time.
My son turned 12, I rejoined and was SHOCKED at how soft CAP had become.
I always thought that doing pushups had a BIG impact on my abilty to properly shine my boots, iron my uniform and study my materials.
But the great powers that be in our modern "Politically Correct" society have seen the error of our ways and made the required corrections.
CAP is still great for the kids, and offers plenty that scouts don't.
And so long as YOU get directly involved in the cadet side of things, then YOU can still drop YOUR son and have him knock out a few pushups.. ;)
Yes, I have no problems with discipline in MY house believe me!
"Time to clean your room boys!
- SKIRMISH LINE !"
;D
Anyway, I am SO glad to have CAP back in my life, though in many ways it never left!
Some of the changes have surprised me though!
Three years ago, there was a Reunion of former Florida Wing cadets of the 60's & 70's. They were shocked by the current "politically correct" Cadet Program.
Is there a place in CAP for cadets having to do puchups? Probably not at the squadron level. But an encampment is a different matter. Should an encampment be a boot camp? Probably to a degree. The reason being, the encampment has only one week to "undo" the errors in D&C given cadets at the Squadron level. Not all Squadrons have good instructors or offer the correct knowledge and leadership that can be foiund at an encampment.
And that is the key problem with the cadet program as envisioned by NHQ. They assume that the seniors running the cadet program at the Squadron level follow the 52-16 or other material. To often the DCC protects his or her cadets from imagined hazing or their sons and daughters from the nasty cadet staff. So the question still comes up, is CAP the Auxiliary of the USAF, a military service, or an advanced form of the Boy or Girl Scouts. During the 60's thru 80's this problem never occured, but in todays CAP, the leaderhip level of CAP as far as customs and courtesies is far lower.
Quote from: BillB on June 07, 2005, 12:32:35 PM
Three years ago, there was a Reunion of former Florida Wing cadets of the 60's & 70's. They were shocked by the current "politically correct" Cadet Program.
Is there a place in CAP for cadets having to do puchups? Probably not at the squadron level. But an encampment is a different matter. Should an encampment be a boot camp? Probably to a degree.
I know Lt Col Doty (the guy with Rob Smith in the RST video), and I can remember some wisdom he related to me once...
He told me of a story where he was doing live RST in Massachusetts. He asked the question "Who thinks encampment should be like boot camp?" Most hands went up. He then asked "Who has been to boot camp?" A few seniors raised their hands. He then asked the cadets "If you haven't been to boot camp, how do you know what it's like?" One cadet raised his hand and said "Because I've seen Full Metal Jacket, sir."
Having been to a couple cadet encampments back in the late 70s and having gone through boot in the US Army, I can say that the Cadet Encamptments gave me a good taste of what was coming. And all things considered, I was probably MUCH more stressed out at the Cadet encampments than I was at Boot..
There is a whole lot to do and a VERY short time to get it all done at encampment.
Quote from: salassa72 on June 06, 2005, 06:15:03 PM
I was a cadet in the 80's... 86-88,
and we certainly DID do pushups, and lots of them.
We had some gungho guys in there that would make you do
them for sneezing, but they were not abused too much, if you asked me.
And as a female sgt. dropping a bunch of guys was kinda fun. OK so I was twisted. We all were.
I was in pretty much the same boat, I was a Cadet in KY from '86 to '89. Back then, getting dropped was an at least twice a week occurrence, and we never thought anything of it. I came back in as a Senior in Feb. 04, and when I found out that drops were now "verboten" during my CPPT class, I was shocked. Ahh, the bad old days.
...and oddly enough, we were dropped by the female Sgt. more than anyone else there too! ;)
There is something very humbling about being a young male and getting droped by a superior female...
I have a cadet that constantly back talks not only all my staff and myself but also our senior members. my mentor suggested taking away privilages like SAREXs and activities in general. he has been in for a good amount of time..about 5months. nothing seems to set this cadet straight. he doesnt respond to anything we have done. im not sure how to proceed at this point. i wish i could give push ups because his behaviour is completely inappropriate.
the fact that i am a female cadet commander does not help with motivating my cadets.
I ran into a cadet like that in AFJROTC. He talked back not only to the cadet staff but also to the retired Air Force Chief Master Sergeant. The Chief just laughed, pulled me to the side, and gave me some really good advice on how to deal with people like that: "No witnesses = no problems." Yelling and giving push-ups was disallowed in my AFJROTC unit by the SASI, a retired Lt Col F-16 pilot. However, five minutes of wall-to-wall counseling and 50 push-ups in a secluded area with no witnesses was all that cadet needed. It wasn't the actual physical exercise that got him, it's the fact that in the back of his mind he knew we were capable of such actions so he didn't want to push his luck. As long as cadets feel they can keeping pushing the boundaries and only get a simple slap on the wrist, they'll keep pushing.
DISCLAIMER: I am NOT advocating this method's use in CAP. It would be a clear and blatant violation of the cadet protection policy. Even when I used it in AFJROTC, it was under the supervision and blessing of a retired CMSgt (unofficially) and it was an absolute last resort. BTW, the Chief believed in letting the cadet staff handle all discipline problems. He would only intervene if it was about to get physical, which never happened.
That being said, there are ways to break people down without ever raising your voice or having them break a sweat (at least not from PT). Couple that with an official, strict counseling session filled with squadron top brass for intimidation purposes and usually people will realize they're way out of their league. If they don't respond to logic and reason and you can't get their respect, fear works just as well until you can establish discipline or run them off.
Something tells me that reply is going to bring this thread back to life...
But.
The things you can do within the bounds of the Cadet Protection Policy for a Cadet like this are BOUNDLESS.
Just be creative and use your imagination.
Rock Garden comes to mind.
Quote from: SAR junkie on June 17, 2005, 09:40:03 PM
I have a cadet that constantly back talks not only all my staff and myself but also our senior members. my mentor suggested taking away privilages like SAREXs and activities in general. he has been in for a good amount of time..about 5months. nothing seems to set this cadet straight. he doesnt respond to anything we have done. im not sure how to proceed at this point. i wish i could give push ups because his behaviour is completely inappropriate.
the fact that i am a female cadet commander does not help with motivating my cadets.
Gender should be irrelevent.
If the cadet staff cannot get this cadet to behave, involve the seniors - up to the commander. As this is done keep three things in mind - document, Document, DOCUMENT. Have written record for everything that takes place. Pull CAPF 50's on the cadet. If the cc can't set the cadet straight, suspend them until the cc talks to their parents. It may come down to recommending the cadet not renew or to a 2B action.
Before the flaming starts, let me clarify that I 1) was 16 and a brand new flight commander, 2) was "strongly urged" by the Chief to "handle" that cadet "without witnesses", 3) had tried every technique I knew at the time prior to that, and 4) never did that again. The need never arose again, and I found better ways to handle cadets with poor attitudes.
I still use the fear method as an absolute last resort when NO ONE can fix the problem and something has to change. The only time I can think of that I've had to use that was at encampment last summer (and no, I'm not going into details). Let's just say that I don't tolerate well cadets who are in leadership positions that don't think the rules apply to them AND who make jokes about retired Vietnam combat veterans who received the Silver Star and Purple Heart.
As for advice on this situation, if the cadet staff can't solve the problem, there is a senior chain above you for a reason. The DCC and CC should be adequately equipped to handle this if you can't. Every time this cadet does something you have a problem with, document it. Have a counseling session and document that too. If the cadet is as bad as they sound, recommend that your DCC or CC speak with the parents and show them the documentation of their child's misbehavior. CPPT doesn't apply at home where there are pissed off parents ;D.
Quote from: dcpacemaker on June 17, 2005, 10:59:03 PM
recommend that your DCC or CC speak with the parents and show them the documentation of their child's misbehavior. CPPT doesn't apply at home where there are pissed off parents ;D.
Ooooo
Thats brutal.
Bringing in "
Mommy and Daddy" is HARD CORE..
If that doesn't solve the problem, then its time for the mighty 2B.
I have found the "Mommy and Daddy" routine mighty useful when dealing with this. I know of one nameless cadet who suddenly stopped showing up in a CORRECT uniform for weeks at a time. The C/LT in charge seemed not to notice, until a conversation was had pointing out that he too was in neglect of the situation. However, as mommy and daddy were paying the bills for his CAP involvement, they were outraged at the son when presented with a list of his disregards. It was simply stated to them that CAP is a volunteer basis, and if he wasn't going to take it seriously--why bother renewing?
Of course, I wonder how it escaped their eyes to begin with--as they always brought him to the meetings in his 'partial' uniform. Hit 'em in the pocketbook, and they always take notice!
I suspect he was on the receiving end of a blanket party shortly after he got home that night. :P
Hmmm
This is really making me think.....
I have more than a couple cadets that just WON'T get their uniforms right.
I have to admit, that I never even considered contacting "mom & dad" and enlisting them in the pursuit of cadet excellance, but hey, what the heck, if that solves the problem, then perhaps I need to bring them in the loop.
It's a good idea in general to keep mom and dad informed about what their cadet is doing - or not doing. I recommend having regular Parents' Nights to show off the cadets' progress and awards.
Quote from: arajca on June 18, 2005, 05:27:00 AM
It's a good idea in general to keep mom and dad informed about what their cadet is doing - or not doing. I recommend having regular Parents' Nights to show off the cadets' progress and awards.
How often do you do those? It sounds like a decent idea......Especially because I have never met most of the parents. Of course, the apple don't fall from the tree.....normally.
Quote from: arajca on June 18, 2005, 05:27:00 AM
It's a good idea in general to keep mom and dad informed about what their cadet is doing - or not doing. I recommend having regular Parents' Nights to show off the cadets' progress and awards.
We have never done that.
Quote from: griggs5113 on June 18, 2005, 05:32:30 AMHow often do you do those? It sounds like a decent idea......Especially because I have never met most of the parents. Of course, the apple don't fall from the tree.....normally.
I would recommend a Parents' Night every six months. My current unit holds awards and promotion nights the first Monday of each month. The families are invited and we generally have a fun activity that everyone can join in on after the presentations.
Do you normally get a decent % of parents attending? I think sometimes they view us as babysitters :-\ .........it would be interesting to see though!
Got any examples to share RE: 'a fun activity'??
Quote from: griggs5113 on June 18, 2005, 05:58:31 PM
Do you normally get a decent % of parents attending?
I know one thing that continues to amaze me are the number of parents that come for the WHOLE meeting and just hang out in our hanger chatting with each other.
I keep trying to get them to join so they can do something productive since they are already there and have better attendance than a lot of my cadets!
Quote from: abysmal on June 18, 2005, 06:27:48 PM
I know one thing that continues to amaze me are the number of parents that come for the WHOLE meeting and just hang out in our hanger chatting with each other.
I keep trying to get them to join so they can do something productive since they are already there and have better attendance than a lot of my cadets!
You have that too, huh? I have one parent that sits through the meeting (and has for 3 years), but she won't join. There's another parent that just sits out in his truck for 2 hours reading and watching movies on his laptop. Both would make excellent members of the squadron, but neither will join. They want CAP to be their child's "thing" without them (which is perfectly understandable), but they never actually leave the area.
That is SO exactly what I see every monday night.
I have had 3 parents commit to get fingerprinted and become members.
So far 1 said she got the prints and never turned them in, the other 2 have not yet been printed.
But I hold out hope...
Get your own print kit for the unit, and get one or two folks trained by a local LEA. We do all our own prints in house. Makes thing a lot simpler.
its hard to describe this cadet. nothing works. and my mentor is the DCC of my squadron. he did mention just takin away the privilages like i mentioned earlier. but his methods are just not working with this cadet. i feel i have given him ample time to adjust. and his parents, well....lets jus say we wanted him to trim his hair. they mentioned that if i got onto him one more time ( the better part of a month and a half) about his hair...that he would not come back, the other option was taht he would go to CAP distinctive. we gave him an ultimatium. either he trimed his hair, or he didnt come bak. i will not have one cadet in my squadron wear the CAP disctintive JUST because he is too lazy to trim his hair. he finally trimmed it, but it took alot to get him just to do that. i have decided, and my cadet staff agrees that we cannot salvage a cadet out of this teenager.
i hate to feel this way. but the fact that this cadet is NOT active in the activities we do but does come to the meetings..grrr.. (mad CC over here) he has been in for six months now and still doesnt wear his freakin cutouts. there is NO excuse for this cadets behavior.
and i dont even thnk that push ups will save this cadet. i dont feel he is a vital asset to the programs. he does more harm than good. im yet to see him do nething worth while.
grrrrrrrr.....im so frustrated right now..... >:(
For starters, what do you think it finally took to get him to trim his hair? It seemed that his parents were of little help there......You might be on to something.
Next: Has anyone asked him simply WHY he chooses to be a member of an all-volunteer group and then NOT respect the rules and regs? Or, are you just a babysitter to the folks? :(
Also--What do your Senior officers think? Is this acceptable behavior to them?
Just some thoughts before going drastic.......but you may have to.
my superiors do NOT feel that this is appropriate behavior from this cadet. in that aspect they agree with me. they keep telling me that the cadet program is to be run by my cadet staff and myself. so they are in the loop on everything.
im not sure what got him to trim his hair. he joined b/c he wanted to fly. but he never got an o flight because he couldnt get his act together. i dont want him in my squadron. he is majorly affecting the moral of the unit...and has a negative effect on the new prospective cadets.
???
Quote from: SAR junkie on June 26, 2005, 05:01:31 AM
my superiors do NOT feel that this is appropriate behavior from this cadet. in that aspect they agree with me. they keep telling me that the cadet program is to be run by my cadet staff and myself. so they are in the loop on everything.
???
To my thoughts, that may be an ideal way of teaching leadership to your cadet officers / NCO's, but they are Senior for a reason! Your CO doesn't let you guys do what you want, I'm sure. The Senior Officers and SM's are there for anything you cadets might need assistance on.......it's part of their jobs in most cases. But, if they feel unmotivated to get further involved, the problem is not solely on this Cadet No-Brains. In our unit, you try to let the Cadet leadership work on it first--but if it isn't able to be solved this way, the Seniors get involved. That normally carries more weight with a problem cadet, and ultimately they set the tone.
In a perfect world, I know.......
We could always use you here in the flatlands ;D.......Same Region, different slackers ;)
Quote from: SAR junkie on June 26, 2005, 04:26:59 AM
its hard to describe this cadet. nothing works. and my mentor is the DCC of my squadron. he did mention just takin away the privilages like i mentioned earlier. but his methods are just not working with this cadet. i feel i have given him ample time to adjust. and his parents, well....lets jus say we wanted him to trim his hair. they mentioned that if i got onto him one more time ( the better part of a month and a half) about his hair...that he would not come back, the other option was taht he would go to CAP distinctive. we gave him an ultimatium. either he trimed his hair, or he didnt come bak. i will not have one cadet in my squadron wear the CAP disctintive JUST because he is too lazy to trim his hair. he finally trimmed it, but it took alot to get him just to do that. i have decided, and my cadet staff agrees that we cannot salvage a cadet out of this teenager.
i hate to feel this way. but the fact that this cadet is NOT active in the activities we do but does come to the meetings..grrr.. (mad CC over here) he has been in for six months now and still doesnt wear his freakin cutouts. there is NO excuse for this cadets behavior.
and i dont even thnk that push ups will save this cadet. i dont feel he is a vital asset to the programs. he does more harm than good. im yet to see him do nething worth while.
grrrrrrrr.....im so frustrated right now..... >:(
SAR junkie,
if this cadet isn't participating in any f the actvities, have you thought about the fact that his home life could be interfering with his CAP life... His parents may not let him take part in the activities that take place other than the meetings. I would be frustrated too. But maybe you could try talking to him. If there is not an answer than you could probably talk to someone who is willig to answer the question. Maybe he just can't patriciapte.
Or maybe you could give him proper disipline and teach what exactly you are expected to do while in the CIVIL AIR PATROL program if he dosen't listen than do the only other option. PROPER BEHAVIOR IS REQUIRED FOR CAP...
I see how you are >:(...
Quote from: SAR junkie on June 26, 2005, 05:01:31 AM
my superiors do NOT feel that this is appropriate behavior from this cadet. in that aspect they agree with me. they keep telling me that the cadet program is to be run by my cadet staff and myself. so they are in the loop on everything.
im not sure what got him to trim his hair. he joined b/c he wanted to fly. but he never got an o flight because he couldnt get his act together. i dont want him in my squadron. he is majorly affecting the moral of the unit...and has a negative effect on the new prospective cadets.
???
I had problem in my squadron up until a couple weeks ago from two different cadets. I confronted one of them after countless warnings and discussions and pretty much told him that the next time I saw him he'd better be in full uniform with all his cutouts and patches, he'd better have his boots polished and his hair cut to standards and that if he wasn't going to bother looking presentable in the uniform the air force issued him then he didn't need to bother coming(he's been airman basic for a year btw). This was three weeks ago and I haven't seen him since. It was probabally one of the hardest things I've ever done but it had to be done.
Sgt. I think that the best thing you could do would be to give it to him straight. Explain that this is a military unit and he represents not only the air force but also the nation when he is in that uniform and at those meetings, if he's not going to straighten up he doesn't need to be there.
Best case scenario: he straightens his act up... Problem solved
Worst case: You lose a troublemaker... Problem solved.
I can understand you wanting to preserve your unit, I don't like losing people either, but sometimes it just has to be done. Besides, it isn't worth losing good hard working cadets over him.
As for my second troublemaker, he's on vacation right now. Next week I take over as C/CC (my current position is C/XO), so I guess he'll be in for a surprise when he returns... ;)
Chief,
If I am not mistaken, not getting promoted for 6 months is grounds for termination of CAP membership. I also believe that falls under a form 2B? My mentor has mentioned them before. Im so glad I am not alone in "slackers" but then i guess there are plenty to go around. :P
Feel free to PM me. we can chat some more.
Actually, not completing two achievements per year is grounds for termination (reference CAPR 52-16, 2-3.g). Remember that not all officer achievements are associated with a promotion. In most cases, the most a Phase IV cadet can achieve is 2 promotions in a year from the date of their Earhart Award. However, most commanders are unwilling to terminate a cadet solely on this basis.
Quote from: SAR junkie on June 27, 2005, 10:44:49 AM
Chief,
If I am not mistaken, not getting promoted for 6 months is grounds for termination of CAP membership. I also believe that falls under a form 2B? My mentor has mentioned them before. Im so glad I am not alone in "slackers" but then i guess there are plenty to go around. :P
Feel free to PM me. we can chat some more.
Thats the biggest stick you have in your arsenal.
Use it with exceedingly great caution....
how many activities ar ein passing the pt test
Quote from: Cheergirl on June 29, 2005, 04:51:17 PM
how many activities ar ein passing the pt test
You have to pass either a mile run or a shuttle run.
You must also pass 2 of the following 3 events.
Push-ups, sit-ups, sit-and-reach.
Quote from: Xeno on June 29, 2005, 05:13:55 PM
Quote from: Cheergirl on June 29, 2005, 04:51:17 PM
how many activities ar ein passing the pt test
You have to pass either a mile run or a shuttle run.
You must also pass 2 of the following 3 events.
Push-ups, sit-ups, sit-and-reach.
I can do the shuttle run and the mile run. i can also do the sit ups and sit and reach. Infact i reached 51 cm and i only needed i think 24... however i can do only like 3 push ups.....
we need to get back on topic....
The way my SM 'mentor' described it was that not completing 2 achevements a year is grounds for termination, if you are really looking for reasons to be terminated. i.e., you may not get terminated, but you can get terminated.
Quote from: The Admiral on June 29, 2005, 09:27:07 PM
we need to get back on topic....
The way my SM 'mentor' described it was that not completing 2 achevements a year is grounds for termination, if you are really looking for reasons to be terminated. i.e., you may not get terminated, but you can get terminated.
... and most likely you won't. I'm willing to bet there aren't many cadets who have been terminated for not getting promoted.
You're probably right about it, but it provides an option for the commanders who have troublesome cadets who refuse to participate. My view on it is if a cadet is testing regularly, but not passing, they shouldn't be kicked out over it. The cadet and senior staffs should be working to help the cadet. Where as the cadidiot who decides to stop testing because they like where they are (usually occurs around C/CMSgt) needs some incentive - positive is best, but the big stick may be an option. Obviously, this wouldn't be applicable to a C/Col.