The Search for the Kim Family

Started by MidwaySix, December 06, 2006, 11:35:50 PM

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MidwaySix

CNN: Trail of clothing led searchers to lost father's body
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/06/missing.family/index.html

Was CAP involved in the search?

Chris Jacobs

Not at all, and I am not happy >:(.

We could have been a huge asset to the search.  The family was renting a privet helo's while we had crews itching to go.  The CAP crews in the local area are claiming that the place that the sheriff found the car would have been one of the first places that they would have flow.  Cars are known to get stuck on that road i guess in the winter.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Eclipse

At least one story I read indicated that the helos were using IR sensors and were concentrating on two hot-spots.

Where the hell was every Archer plane in the area?

A wilderness search in winter conditions is no place to be messing around, but this would certainly been a justification to drag every qual'ed GTM from the whole state into the mix.

Time is life, and it looks to me like he was walking for a while.

"That Others May Zoom"

Chris Jacobs

The nearest archer is a good day away.  It is in California.

We don't have a lot of ground team around here.  And any ways the place that they were searching in was not suitable for a regular ground team.  the mountain rescue guys couldn't even get to him.  they had to air lift him out i believe.

We did have aircrews and support personnel begging to go out, but I don't believe that we have the best of relationships with that sheriff.  Unlike some states the sheriff decides who is going to search.

And they were using inferred.  I believe they had 4 privet helo's and 2 national guard helo's.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

CAP428

#4
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on December 07, 2006, 02:11:08 AM
Not at all, and I am not happy >:(.

We could have been a huge asset to the search.  The family was renting a privet helo's while we had crews itching to go. 

While I agree CAP could have helped a lot, we do not have an exclusive right to all search and rescue missions throughouth the country, so to be bitter that we were not used seems kind like a moot point.  It also seems especially insensitive to the family to treat their situation like a day of entertainment for CAP crews "itching to go."

CAP does a lot to help SAR missions across the nation, but we are not the only ones.  Looking back in hindsight saying "we woulda looked there first," is neither an objective view nor constructive, it is childish.

****[Note: the impression I got from the previous post has since been cleared up.  The above statements by me are retracted.]****

Chris Jacobs

Itching to go is wanting to help.  We all wanted to see a good end to this.  It was not to get a play day but to do what we all volunteer to do.  If you watched the press conference you can see that the sheriff could not even get a whole sentace out without breaking down.  I don't know how many searches you have been on but the very few that i have been on i become emotionally attached to the subject and the family.  I was wanting to go and help, not play.  So before you start accusing people of wanting to go and play i hope you know who you are talking to.  On top of that they were people from our area.  so be careful because you never know who knows who.  We had someone make a comment like this once to find out that one of our members knew the person and did have more of an intrest than going to play.

And the people that are making what you call the childish comment are people from the area, that know it very well.  I don't know where you are from but here in Oregon the terrain is very challenging.  And most the time local people are the ones that know all the details about it.  I know the terrain in my area and if they found a family on a road that was obvious to me after a week, i would be saying the same thing.  Now i will agree with you that it looks a little childish, but you have to remember that these people know the area.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

CAP428

that's good to hear.  The way it came across to me [its hard to judge tone online, though] was that you were "itching to go" b/c you just wanted a good SAR to do, not to help.  As long as helping was you objective, that is good.

Chris Jacobs

Thank you very much.  I really hope that next time that we can be of some help to the people out there.

And the fact that you cant show tone over the internet is a problem.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Psicorp

Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

I just hate to see a situation where politics, issues from long ago, personal grievances, or simply a lack of saying "we're here" keeps trained personnel from assisting when there's such a dire need.

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Chris Jacobs

First i am 99% sure we cant use CAP assets, including aircraft.  nothing stops a member from going as a civilian and volunteering with a sheriff.  The only thing is here in Oregon you have to go through a lengthly proses for a sheriff to allow you on a search.  As long as we are being requested as CAP we are recognized as having the same training as the sheriffs.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Eclipse

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

No.  100% no.  Unless you are loking to be 2b'ed.  That's not how it works - CAP is not a posse.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

In the itching to go regard, we are no different than police, fire, or other military agencies.

We train to assist people when bad things happen, in order for us to stretch our wings, bad things have to happen.  Ask any fireman about this paradigm - the "best" situation is a tasty fire where no one gets hurt.  Its just human nature.

Few of us wish for bad things to happen, but it is frustrating when they do happen and to have to sit from the sidelines when we could help.

The whole point of living a life where yo do more than sit around watching football and playing X-Box is to be more than an observer in life.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hotel 179

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   


Good Morning, Psicorp...and all,

We have had success in getting in the search process by making direct contact with the IC and offering our services.  The conversation is simple, "We have an aircraft and ground team, how can we help."  Next is the walk through for the phone-call to AFRCC, who contacts the Wing Alerting Officer.  I say something to the effect of, "Since we are dispatched by the Air Force, there's a hoop to jump through but if you will call this toll-free number they will walk you through the process and it will only take a moment."

Of course, I have already called the alerting officer to give him a head's up and from the Sheriff's conversation with AFRCC I already know what the mission number is so we can get started heading to our stations. 

The key that we have found is constant contact with the Emergency Operations Community.  Coca-Cola sells more soft drinks than anybody in the world and they advertise EVERY day.  If you aren't meeting with the people who are going to be in charge of the initial phases of the search in your community then you will always be on the side-lines.

Semper vi, y'all.....

Stephen
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

Eclipse

I agree with this in terms of the process, but the relationships, and even the awareness of our very existence needs to occur before there is a need.

"That Others May Zoom"

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2006, 04:36:37 PM
I agree with this in terms of the process, but the relationships, and even the awareness of our very existence needs to occur before there is a need.

[nodding in agreement]

The initial 'selling' is the most critical point, IMHO. There is some truth to the old cliche about first impressions.

It's vital that the right people make the right contacts at the right times in order to best establish any such external relationship; it's even more vital that this is understood within our own ranks before any such attempts are made.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

A.Member

#15
Getting back to the actual story...

In RE: clothing found...

I don't know if anyone else read this but prior to finding Kim's body yesterday, a number of news articles I read quoted a law enforcement officer as stating they found some clothing and believe Kim left them as a marker.

This is the only article I can still find that still references this comment (most other articles were updated with the most recent news):
Searchers keep up hunt for CNET editor
QuoteOregon State Lieutenant Gregg Hastings has confirmed that searchers found a pair of pants they suspect James Kim left behind at the bottom of a ravine, where he is believed to have traveled on foot. Unconfirmed reports from local news stations say rescuers may also have found another of his personal items near the pants.

"You could speculate maybe he's trying to leave a signal as he's moving about," Hastings said in answering reporters' questions about the pants. "He may have also taken some other things that he could have left in other, different positions."

First off, I wasn't there so I truly don't know.  That said, taking the statement at face value, this was one of the silliest/ignorant statements I've heard in some time and couldn't believe it came from a law enforcement officer, especially a LT.  I'm guessing he wasn't the PAO because that never should've been stated. 

When it was reported that some of his clothing was found, my first thought was, he's dead.   Unfortunately, I was right. 

If you've ever done a ground search for someone where hypothermia is a concern, you know that one of the signs you look for is clothing.  As severe hypothermia sets in, one of the things people tend to do is shed their clothing as cognitive abilities are inhibited.  When people begin to disrobe, the situation is critical. 

Another item to take away from this story is to not leave your vehicle.  It offers protection and is easier to locate.  Even upon reading the earlier reports that he'd left his vehicle, I wasn't very optimistic. 

Unfortunately, a tragic ending for the Kim family.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Eclipse

Is this an area with no/poor cel coverage.

It would seem to me that a technology editor would have at least a basic cel phone.

"That Others May Zoom"

floridacyclist

I would take it that was the case....we're not anywhere near as rugged and remote here in the FL Panhandle, yet we still have a lot of dead spots once you're out of town and S GA is pretty barren as well. Even driving through the mountains of NC means "No Service" the majority of the time due to being in the RF shadow of some mountain or another. On the flip side, those same mountains can help you get a signal if you are in a situation where you can climb to the top of one, which Kim may not have been able to do based on weather and weakness.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

ELTHunter

Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 07, 2006, 03:58:44 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   


Good Morning, Psicorp...and all,

We have had success in getting in the search process by making direct contact with the IC and offering our services.  The conversation is simple, "We have an aircraft and ground team, how can we help."  Next is the walk through for the phone-call to AFRCC, who contacts the Wing Alerting Officer.  I say something to the effect of, "Since we are dispatched by the Air Force, there's a hoop to jump through but if you will call this toll-free number they will walk you through the process and it will only take a moment."

Of course, I have already called the alerting officer to give him a head's up and from the Sheriff's conversation with AFRCC I already know what the mission number is so we can get started heading to our stations. 

The key that we have found is constant contact with the Emergency Operations Community.  Coca-Cola sells more soft drinks than anybody in the world and they advertise EVERY day.  If you aren't meeting with the people who are going to be in charge of the initial phases of the search in your community then you will always be on the side-lines.

Semper vi, y'all.....

Stephen

Depending upon the situation, you should call the NOC and not the AFRCC.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

ELTHunter

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civilians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

I just hate to see a situation where politics, issues from long ago, personal grievances, or simply a lack of saying "we're here" keeps trained personnel from assisting when there's such a dire need.



Self deploying is not allowed.  Period.  They really don't like us to even call to offer services, but rather wait to be called.  That's were establishing a relationship with local EMA's comes in.  If the local EMA folks know what you can do and that you have resources they need, they will call or at least you will have a relationship established where you can make contact with them without outright soliciting to participate.

The CAP can't prevent you from volunteering as a private citizen, however, you can't where CAP uniforms, use CAP comms, vehicles or any other CAP assets.  You also can't advertise yourself as CAP, only Joe Citizen.

I realize your frustration, it has happened here a number of times.  Unfortunately, CAP's MOU's are usually with state or federal agencies, not at the local level.  Local officials often are not excited about calling state agencies to ask for CAP assistance for fear that the state or federal agencies will want to take over the mission.  That get's back to the relationship thing.

Having said all this, you have to be carefull who goes out to sell CAP to the local officials.  It should really be a Wing or Group ES Officer of staff member, or at the very least a squadron commander.  You want to portray CAP as a professional organization and give a realistic picture of what CAP can do.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

lordmonar

Quote from: Psicorp on December 07, 2006, 02:30:38 PM
Okay, here's a question...

Suppose a situation like this occurs and ordinary civillians, not attached to the family, are participating in the search but for whatever reason C.A.P. isn't requested/wanted/etc..   Is there anything that would prohibit C.A.P. members from assisting without a mission number?  Could we use C.A.P. assets (members fund the flight time and fuel for the aircraft and vehicles) and all but aircrew be out of uniform?

I just hate to see a situation where politics, issues from long ago, personal grievances, or simply a lack of saying "we're here" keeps trained personnel from assisting when there's such a dire need.

Well...there is nothing stopping a private citezen for using his own reasorces to volunteer to help.

Let's say a plane crashed and you had an DF equiped air craft and you helped the sheriff to help find it.  No problem.

But you can not use corporate assets.  Can't use CAP freqs, CAP planes, radios, wear CAP uniforms and you can't use CAP liablity inusrance.  You would be completly on your own...and if at any time you represented yourself as being CAP you could set yourself up to be 2b'ed.

The question is....why was CAp not called?  Is there a realtionship problem there or was it just one of ignorance?  While CAP can't self deploy...there is nothing that says we can't make a call and volunteer our services.  We can call the mission base, talk to the IC or LO and tell him what we are capable of.  If he sees the need for our services we give him the number to AFRCC and then the ball starts rolling.

As Psicorp said....we need to be sure we have MOUs at all level of government so they can call on us if they need us.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2006, 02:19:38 AM
At least one story I read indicated that the helos were using IR sensors and were concentrating on two hot-spots.

Where the hell was every Archer plane in the area?

A wilderness search in winter conditions is no place to be messing around, but this would certainly been a justification to drag every qual'ed GTM from the whole state into the mix.

Time is life, and it looks to me like he was walking for a while.
Give ARCHER a whirl, the whole one of them you might be able to get there a day late, but where's the funding for some FLIR systems to mount on our 182s? It ain't that expensive & Cessna does it right at the factory. In fact teh same division of Cessna that does those installations advertises in our "Volunteer" magaizine I see. Look at the FEMA standards too where they're talking about platforms in terms of FLIR or live feed video, not eyeballs looking thru windows, that's just bonus.

shorning

Lets get the story straight:

QuoteCoroner: Kim died of exposure, hypothermia

MERLIN, Oregon (CNN) -- CNET editor James Kim died of exposure and hypothermia as he sought help for his snowbound wife and children, authorities said Thursday.

But a coroner in Oregon could not determine exactly when the father of two died.

After waiting a week for rescue, burning car tires for warmth and having little to eat besides berries, the couple decided they had no other choice but for James Kim to venture out Saturday for help, Kati Kim told authorities. (360° Blog: What would you do?)

He faced the unforgiving wilderness of Oregon's back country wearing only street clothes. (Watch police describe how Kim was found -- 1:56Video)

Calling his trek "superhuman," officials said the 35-year-old walked 10.24 miles before he collapsed, authorities said. (Watch officer's emotional reactionVideo)

On November 25 the Kims had begun a drive home to San Francisco, California, after a Thanksgiving vacation in Oregon.

They missed a turn and found themselves stranded in snow and lost on one of Oregon's treacherous mountain roads -- an area that is rarely plowed during the winter.

At some point, James Kim tried to back up the car to where there was less snow to block them. But snow was falling so fast and furiously that he had to open his door to see, authorities said.

Over the next few days, the snow and rain fell unrelentingly, Kati Kim told searchers.

The family ran the car sporadically to keep warm as temperatures dipped below freezing at night.

After running out of gas, they set a spare tire on fire and eventually burned all four tires for warmth. When the weather let up briefly, they burned magazines and driftwood.

The Kims fed their children baby food and crackers. Kati Kim, nursing 7-month- old Sabine, also breast-fed her 4-year-old daughter Penelope.

Before James Kim left his family, he built a fire for them. He put on a pair of sweat pants over his jeans and set out.

He encountered what searchers would later describe as rugged, steep, snowy terrain with sodden branches, slick rocks, downed trees and poison oak nestled between sheer cliffs.

Despite those conditions, authorities said, he covered about 10 miles before succumbing in the ravine where rescuers found his body on Wednesday about noon (3 p.m. ET).

"It seems superhuman to me that he was able to cover that amount of distance given what he had and also that he had nine days in the car" before setting out, Josephine County Undersheriff Brian Anderson said.

"I'm amazed," searcher Robert Graham told reporters. "We spent hours down there and made very little distance. ... The conditions were very rough. It's been cold. The terrain is so rugged, just spending one day out here is very exhausting."

Kati Kim and the couple's daughters were found Monday when searchers saw her waving an umbrella. She had just set out on foot when they were found, authorities said.

The three spent a night in the hospital and were released Tuesday.
An arduous and determined trek

Using a map, authorities showed that Kim had headed south and west before entering the drainage area and following it eastward -- back in the direction of the family's car.

Authorities tracked him by following his footprints in the snow.

Before locating his body, rescue workers said they had found what they believed was a trail of clues from James Kim, including three shirts, a wool sock, a blue girl's skirt and pieces of an Oregon state map.

Kati Kim had told authorities her husband had taken the items with him when he left their car.

Operating on the assumption he might still be alive, searchers had dropped care packages in the area.

Kim's body was found about a half mile south of the family's car at the foot of a huge cliff, authorities said.

"It appears to me he was highly motivated, and he knew what he was doing, coming down [the drainage area]," Anderson said.

Authorities were not sure why Kim chose that route, he said.

A deputy found a message written on white paper on the road, Anderson said, describing the note as an SOS saying the family had been stuck since the Sunday after Thanksgiving and that two children were in the car.

"Please send help," it said. Authorities are not sure which of the Kims had written the note, Anderson said.

A note was also found in the car. It was written by Kati Kim and indicated where she and the children were headed.
'James Kim was a hero'

The news that James Kim was found dead left searchers "devastated," said Anderson, who grew emotional while telling reporters of the discovery. "I'm crushed."

Kim was a senior editor at CNET Networks.

"This has been a heart-wrenching experience for everyone involved," CNET CEO Neil Ashe told reporters. "I know that I speak for everyone at CNET Networks when I say that James Kim was a hero, and we will miss him greatly."

He said the company would do all it could to assist Kim's family and honor his memory.

Searcher Joe Hyatt told reporters the rugged terrain of Oregon can be deceiving to those who are unfamiliar with it.

"When you're up in the mountains, it all looks nice and peaceful," he said.

Of Kim, Hyatt said, "I can only describe him as an extremely motivated individual. I would describe him as a true hero."

Wednesday evening, Scott Nelson Windels, a friend of the Kims, issued a statement thanking the searchers and others involved in the incident.

"We want to send out our utmost thanks to the search and rescue teams who risked their lives in the efforts to bring James back to us, they are true heroes to risk their own lives for a stranger," it read.

"Please continue to keep Kati, Penelope, Sabine and the rest of their family in your thoughts."

© 2006 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.

SarDragon

Look here for some really good info that builds on what's already been posted.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

floridacyclist

This is not a critical post, but a questioning one.

Why are we all  reacting the way we are to this incident? Hikers and hunters get lost and die all the time...nature can be very unforgiving, but most of them don't stir up half the discussion that this one has, nor do you often hear of a Sheriff breaking down in tears while announcing an unsuccessful end to a SAR mission.

Is it because we're upset that we weren't allowed to help?

I question that because this story seems to affect everyone the same way, not just SAR-type people.

Is it because he was relatively famous and his story got a lot of news coverage?

Could be....but I didn't hear about it till they found his wife and kids

Is it because many of us think this man epitomized the idea of a father giving his life to try to save his wife and children and the men (the probable majority of the folks that might be following this story closely) empathize with him more closely than usual?

Bingo perhaps...I know that looking at it this way is enough to make me catch my breath....sort of like watching "John Q" over again

Thoughts?
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

Al Sayre

I choose C.  What he did is to act they way we all hope we would... Do what ever is necessary and withing our power to try to protect our families.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: Al Sayre on December 08, 2006, 08:23:47 PM
I choose C.  What he did is to act they way we all hope we would... Do what ever is necessary and withing our power to try to protect our families.

I'll second that.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

ELTHunter

I'm probably the only person that has not been following this story other than to know about it in general.  I'm not questioning that the guy acted nobly in trying to hike out and find help, but what I'm wondering is why leave the road and start across country?  Even if the roads are not well traveled, it seems that there would be a better chance of finding help by staying on them.

Than again, I'm not familiar with the area.

Comments?
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

A.Member

#28
Quote from: shorning on December 08, 2006, 05:19:57 AM
Lets get the story straight:
Was the story in need of straightening up to this point?  

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 08, 2006, 07:06:50 PMWhy are we all  reacting the way we are to this incident?
I'm not entirely certain I'm clear on what you're asking.  What way are we reacting?  Do you mean why is this one particular incident being discussed more so than the hundreds of other similarly tragic incidents we respond to each year?  If so, that is a good question.   Maybe the answer to why it's garnered more discussion is as simple as the fact that someone actually posted about it. That and the fact that there was a lot of media coverage means that more of us heard about the incident and could speak to it at some level.

From my perspective, I'm not sure there is anything significantly different about this incident other than the fact that this was a high-profile search that we did not particpate in - and a few people are wondering why that is. 

As you mentioned, hikers and hunters get lost and succumb to the elements.  Planes crash and people die.  In all cases, someone's son or daughter or loved one is lost.  It's tragic but that's the business we're in.  This incident is no different to me.

To me, the potentially larger question is, what can we learn from this story - both as SAR volunteers and as potential victims of such a circumstance.  That may be the greater value in such discussions.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

shorning

Quote from: ELThunter on December 08, 2006, 08:33:25 PM
... but what I'm wondering is why leave the road and start across country?  Even if the roads are not well traveled, it seems that there would be a better chance of finding help by staying on them.

They were lost.  They were actually in a different area than they thought they were.  It appears he was trying to get to a nearby city and following the river would have been a shortcut had they been where he thought they was. 

It's easy to sit in the comfort of our homes and second-guess someone after the fact.  Each of us would have handled the situation differently, but it would have been what we thought was the best at the time.

Personally I'd say we should put this issue to rest.  CAP wasn't called.  We were never going to be called.  The "woulda, shoulda, coulda" serves no purpose.

A.Member

Quote from: shorning on December 08, 2006, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on December 08, 2006, 08:33:25 PM
... but what I'm wondering is why leave the road and start across country?  Even if the roads are not well traveled, it seems that there would be a better chance of finding help by staying on them.

They were lost.  They were actually in a different area than they thought they were.  It appears he was trying to get to a nearby city and following the river would have been a shortcut had they been where he thought they was. 

It's easy to sit in the comfort of our homes and second-guess someone after the fact.  Each of us would have handled the situation differently, but it would have been what we thought was the best at the time.
And to me that is the value of this discussion - especially this time of year when blizzards/heavy snowfall can become fairly common.   What is the correct thing to do?  Knowing the correct answer just may save your life.  

As you stated, they were lost.  If you don't know where you are, don't assume.  Unless there is some critical danger in doing so, stay with the vehicle - while doing whatever is possible to increase the likelihood of being found.  The vehicle provides critical shelter and has a higher probability of being found before an individual. 
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

floridacyclist

Quote from: shorning on December 08, 2006, 08:53:18 PM
Personally I'd say we should put this issue to rest.  CAP wasn't called.  We were never going to be called.  The "woulda, shoulda, coulda" serves no purpose.

Actually, I think that anything we can learn to better understand the psychology of a lost person can only help us...especially when we're the one laying out the search areas and dispatching the teams for a hasty search before bad weather sets in etc etc

As to staying with the vehicle, I don't know...after 9 days, you might think that option wasn't working so well.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

A.Member

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 08, 2006, 09:05:30 PM
As to staying with the vehicle, I don't know...after 9 days, you might think that option wasn't working so well.
Agreed.  Which is why this is such an important learning opportunity.  We know the outcome.  If he would've stayed with  the vehicle, the story would have a different ending.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

floridacyclist

And if he had gone the other direction (toward the lodge), things would have been different too. We can't sit here and second-guess him with the advantage of hindsight and Google Earth and criticize him for making decisions that we now know to be wrong.

Even the rest of his family wasn't found until they left the car...so who's to say that  the car itself would have ever been found in time otherwise? We'll never know.

I find it interesting that the car wasn't spotted even when they were burning the tires...I take it that was at night otherwise you could have seen that plume of black smoke from miles away.

Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

shorning

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 08, 2006, 09:22:24 PM
We can't sit here and second-guess him with the advantage of hindsight and Google Earth and criticize him for making decisions that we now know to be wrong.


Hmmm...sounds familiar... ::)

MidwaySix


Chris Jacobs

personally no one would have ever seen the smoke from those little tires.  The search area at the time was so huge that it would have been random luck for some one to see the smoke.  And on top of that there was really bad weather.  They were stuck in an area that we refer to as the coast range.  All the incoming pacific storms bank up against and in those mountains so the weather was really bad in the area for most of the initial search.  I don't think that the smoke would have been seen unless there was a search team either really close or an airplane within a few miles.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

A.Member

#37
Quote from: floridacyclist on December 08, 2006, 09:22:24 PM
And if he had gone the other direction (toward the lodge), things would have been different too. We can't sit here and second-guess him with the advantage of hindsight and Google Earth and criticize him for making decisions that we now know to be wrong.

Even the rest of his family wasn't found until they left the car...so who's to say that  the car itself would have ever been found in time otherwise? We'll never know.

I find it interesting that the car wasn't spotted even when they were burning the tires...I take it that was at night otherwise you could have seen that plume of black smoke from miles away.
It's not second guessing his decision nor is it an attempt at Monday morning quarterbacking.  It's debriefing/analyzing the incident to learn from it.  It's looking at facts, not what if's. 

We know for a fact that rescuers eventually did find his wife and 2 children alive near the car (they continued to use it as shelter).  We know that the family  put up a valiant effort to be discovered.  We know that the weather wasn't favorable.  We know that at some point the decision was made to leave the vehicle and seek assistance alone and this unfortunately resulted in a loss of life.  I'm not implying that these were easy decisions to make.  I believe quite the opposite actually - I'm sure it would be a very difficult decision.  That's why it's important to learn from this incident.  It's simply another example that confirms what has long been said - stay with the vehicle, it provides the best chance for surviving such a scenario.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Pumbaa

Now another way to look at this is from the point of the "Kims" of this world.

You are traveling during the winter, what are the best things to have in your vehical?

For years since I traveled extensivly in New England during the winter I had a backpack containing most things that would help me survive in the winter should I be stranded.  I traveled in a 300 mile plus radius from Mass.  Now I am in Western NY and travel the backroads.. easy to get lost in the hills.

Partial list: I had (and still have) some MRE's, crackers, water in packets, water filter pump, 100 hour candles, the silverized space blankets in packets (4), toilet paper, fishing line and tackle, survival knife, signal mirror, strobe light, bandaids and other medical gear, waterproof matches, flashlight and batteries, pens, paper, extra gloves, and wool caps, wool socks, wool blanket... etc..  all this fit in one backpack.

Oh yeah I also have a handheld Garmin GPS.  I think anyone driving any distance would do well to have one in their kit.

So again turn this around.. how can CAP educate not only it's members, but the public?  Perhaps having an open house, invite the local police, polititians, etc... having a seminar on winter driving/ survival?  Free classes etc...

CAP needs to be proactive in many things, by offering classes we increase our exposure to the public and AUTHORITIES!  So now, we are giving some winter tips, and the local PDs, state police etc know about us.. they become aware of what we can do, and might call us next time.

Perhaps....

Oh yeah... CAP is America's best kept secret... How do you keep a secret?  You keep your mouth shut!  In other words the only reason CAP is a secret is WE don't open our mouths!

Get some CAPabilitiy brochures, mail them to the local authorities, talk to the local cops, get those PSA's to the radio stations, get press releases out to the papers and TV stations... talk about CAP!

floridacyclist

There is still no guarantee that she would have been found had she stayed with the car, and after 9 days with no signs of pending rescue, I certainly do not fault the man for thinking it is time to try to get help.......for all he knew, they weren't even being looked for. Had neither of them left the car, the headlines could have easily read "Family of Four Found Dead in Oregon Wilderness" as the car itself was still not found until after she and the kids were; we don't know how far away they were from the car at the time or if the car itself would have been seen as it might have even been under bushes.

As for local Sheriffs learning, we recently had two events in Santa Rosa Co that confirmed the value of this. A couple of weeks ago, a 90yo alzheimer's patient went missing and the SO tried to find him for 7 days before asking us for help. While we did not spot the patient, the air activity over a local's property led the local to check his property out and he found the body under some trees (in his car I might add). 2 weeks later, a 73yo went missing and the SO called us within a few hours; fortunately this guy was found alive before we took off, but the SO obiously learned his lesson and was sufficiently impressed by our reaction the first time to call us again.

We were talking last night about inviting a couple of deputies to our next Ranger Training Exercise since our local Medevac chopper says they prefer to have someone to talk to on the ground and have comm with SO and EMS.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

A.Member

#40
Quote from: 2nd LT Fairchild on December 09, 2006, 12:31:28 PM
Now another way to look at this is from the point of the "Kims" of this world.

You are traveling during the winter, what are the best things to have in your vehical?

For years since I traveled extensivly in New England during the winter I had a backpack containing most things that would help me survive in the winter should I be stranded.  I traveled in a 300 mile plus radius from Mass.  Now I am in Western NY and travel the backroads.. easy to get lost in the hills.

Partial list: I had (and still have) some MRE's, crackers, water in packets, water filter pump, 100 hour candles, the silverized space blankets in packets (4), toilet paper, fishing line and tackle, survival knife, signal mirror, strobe light, bandaids and other medical gear, waterproof matches, flashlight and batteries, pens, paper, extra gloves, and wool caps, wool socks, wool blanket... etc..  all this fit in one backpack.
An excellent point on the need for people in certain climates to have winter survival kits in their vehicles as well.

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 09, 2006, 01:45:59 PM
There is still no guarantee that she would have been found had she stayed with the car, and after 9 days with no signs of pending rescue, I certainly do not fault the man for thinking it is time to try to get help.......for all he knew, they weren't even being looked for. Had neither of them left the car, the headlines could have easily read "Family of Four Found Dead in Oregon Wilderness" as the car itself was still not found until after she and the kids were; we don't know how far away they were from the car at the time or if the car itself would have been seen as it might have even been under bushes.
You're missing the point.  We know for a fact, the rest of the family was found alive with the car. 

You can speculate all day long if you want - I'm not going to do that.  Could they have died if they stayed with the car?  Sure, given enough time, it's a possiblity.  However, we know that they didn't.  It's been documented time and again:  by far the highest probability (note: not a guarantee) for survivial is staying with the vehicle.

Another thing people should do, particularily on long road trips, is make sure they communicate their travel plan with someone ahead of time and check in periodically.  It's just like filing a flight plan - if no one is expecting you, then how do you expect people to know to look for you?   
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Chris Jacobs

Actually that survival kit reminds me of a mission we had about a year ago here in Oregon.  It was almost an identical mission to the Kim family.  A husband and wife were going to a resort in the mountains when they decided they would take a back road.  They got stuck in the snow and stayed with the car.  Although they had plenty of winter clothing, food and water and some other survival stuff.  I even think that they put something on their roof, i think it was a blue tarp but now i cant remember.  But when the sheriff road up the road on a snowmobile and found them after they had been stuck for about 5 days, he found them in perfect condition.  They did every thing right, including the survival pack.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

floridacyclist

Quote from: A.Member on December 09, 2006, 03:11:57 PMYou're missing the point.  We know for a fact, the rest of the family was found alive with the car. 

Correction: They were found a short distance from the car as they had just set out on foot to seek help or die trying. As far as we know, the car itself was not spotted first, her umbrella was.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the premise of staying with the vehicle being the best course of action, but after 9 days of not even knowing if you are being looked for and watching your family slowly creeping closer to death, leaving on foot to seek help seems like a reasonable action to take and one that I can't fault him for. You can point out that they were eventually found if you want, but you only know that in hindsight; we weren't there on the ground with this man. I still maintain that he did nothing wrong; he stayed with the car for 9 days and only then chose to seek help on foot rather than watch his children die.

To me, the saddest part is that he died not knowing that they had been rescued.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org


RiverAux

While I'm not saying that this isnt' true (it probably is), but does anyone have a citation for research on incidents in which people have been stranded in their car which says the best course of action is to stay with the car? 

A.Member

#45
Quote from: RiverAux on December 10, 2006, 01:34:30 AM
While I'm not saying that this isnt' true (it probably is), but does anyone have a citation for research on incidents in which people have been stranded in their car which says the best course of action is to stay with the car? 
That's a great question.  I haven't seen any quantative numbers.  The National Weather Service tracks fatalities due to storms (see: Weather Fatalities )but they don't have the detail needed to answer your question.  For example, in 2004, according to their numbers the most hazardous place to be during a winter storm was in a vehicle - 71% of all victims.  However, I that statistic is really representative of storm related "traffic" accidents more so than the situation being discussed here.  There's also an old video (it's actually from the mid-80's) called "Surviving the Cold" that used real stories to illustrate points - but I don't think they have "the bigger picture" with actual statistics.

Some related info on Winter Safety (but no real numbers):
ABC:  Surviving When Your Car Gets Stuck in Snow
NWS Winter Storms
Stalled...but Safe
Staying put is the key to winter survival when stranded
CNN Winter Survival
Subaru: Outdoor Survival
The Combat Edge - page 30

That winter survival kit is important!  Be prepared.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

DNall

Just a quick note. As rescue workers, and many of us qual'd as staff members that decide where & when to search, it is useful to tabletop the psychology of survivors. You do have to get in theri head & try to figure out what they might have done & why & look at different things like thinking they are in another spot.

It is also useful to ask INTERNALLY why CAP was NOT called on this search. I gurantee you if it were in Iowa they'd have been out there in one capacity or another. The relationship each of our Wgs has w/ local & state authorities varries widely, & that even varries on what type of mission you're talking about. Sounds to me like yu need to focus on meeting the NIMS standards & building trust across agency lines in the emergency response community. Crying about woulda coulda shoulda, ESPECIALLY when you get specific about this one situation AND do so quickly after this tragic & heroic but ill-fated death, that's not just the wrong kind of PR, that's just flat wrong.

Beyond those couple comments, I don't know enough about the actual situation, nor do I trust hind-sight media reconstructions so soon after, and I don't know enough about the Wing involved or their relationships & history with local & state authorities on missing person searches in winter conditions, nor the qual's of their people or if those are publicized to the appropriate authorities.... So basically I can't comment intelligently past what I already said. This is the kind of story that after some time has passed I might use as fodder for a table-top, but otherwise I'd advise some caution.

RiverAux

QuoteIt is also useful to ask INTERNALLY why CAP was NOT called on this search.
No matter how much politicing CAP does you always have to remember that no one is under any more obligation to use us as they are some random volunteer off the street.  I bet there are other search organizations in the area that also did not particpate. 

I agree that CAP does not spend nearly enough time on "customer relations" but that will only take you so far. 

Lets also face the facts that CAP can only provide very limited services in the vast majority of the country.  Sure, we can usually guarantee that we can send a plane or two out just about anywhere, but those are generally of very limited use in most lost person searches.  Could they be made more capable?  Sure, but for the forseable future we have to deal with what we have.  In a case where the lost persons are in a vehicle, yes CAP would be of much more use than normal with a lost-in-the-woods scenario. 

But, as to providing meaningful ground search assistance no one is going to count on CAP.  Most Wings would struggle to field more than 1 5-10 person ground team for a weeday search.  That won't add much to the overall resources available.  Plus, lets face it, no one is going to take CAP ground teams very seriously when they're made up of young teenagers no matter what training they've had. 

To answer your comment, there isn't really anything new here.  More than likely it was due to a failure on the part of both the nearest squadron ES officer and the Wing ES officer to maintain adequate relationships with local authorities as they are supposed to.  However, you must account for the possibility that the folks running the search are jerks who might not have wanted any outsiders involved no matter how qualified.   

dbaran

Quote from: DNall on December 10, 2006, 07:20:01 AM
It is also useful to ask INTERNALLY why CAP was NOT called on this search.
It is also really important that we ask external organizations so we have an understanding of what we need to do to be prepared to help the next time a situation like this arises.

A few months back, we decided to investigate why CAP in central CA wasn't getting called by the local sherriff.   It turns out that they don't want anyone involved in ground searches unless they have completed the "First Responder" first aid training.   The standard CAP requirement is much lower (basic first aid).    Our recommendation to people was that they take the first responder course so that they'll have a better chance of being used. 

One can be "qualified" as far as CAP is concerned, but one really needs to be qualified to the extent required by the lead agency in the search, which is often not CAP.

A.Member

#49
Quote from: RiverAux on December 10, 2006, 02:13:29 PM
Plus, lets face it, no one is going to take CAP ground teams very seriously when they're made up of young teenagers no matter what training they've had. 
Interesting point and I don't disagree.  It can be quite a stigma to overcome.  So, how do we do it effectively?  Well, to build on the comments from your previous post, we start truly quantifying our work.  It makes for a better sales pitch and having metrics helps us measure our performance.  In doing so, we can increase our effectiveness through improved training and in turn our overall value to the community and the Air Force.

As an organization we need to track the number of real missing persons missions (this includes downed aircraft).  We then need to identify how many of those missions we participated in resulted in a find/recovery (either by CAP or a particpating organization) .  Of those finds, we need to identify how many were actual CAP finds.  Easy, right?...we have this info already.  However, to my knowledge (and I'm sure there are exceptions) we do not put this together effectively at National, Region, Wing, or, in many cases, Squadron levels.  I challenge you to find this info on any CAP website.  This data must be drilled down further and exploited - it's critical to selling our services and building that trust with other agencies, whether they be local or federal.

As a hypothetical example, at each level (National, Region, Wing, Squadron) we should be able to say:
* Squadron X particpated in 30 missing aircraft and persons missions in 2006.
* 28 of those missions resulted in the location of the missing aircraft/person (~93% success rate - this could be broken down into actual lives saved as well as recovery)
* In 25 of the 28 finds, CAP teams were the first to locate the missing aircraft/person (~89% of all finds)

This info should be prominently displayed on websites, communications, etc.  When presented in such a way, the numbers are so much more powerful than simply saying "100 lives on average saved per year" - that's really a pretty empty statement.  We could augment such metrics with average response size (ex. Squadron X averages 15 members per mission, etc.).  Even if the numbers aren't worth bragging about outside the organization, it gets those within the organization thinking about these things more consciously.  Instead, as an active participant in the organization, I don't even know this info.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

RiverAux

I definetely agree that CAP has done a very poor job of either keeping the records at NHQ level, or if they are keeping them, they certainly keep them to themselves.

Frankly, I think the problems is that the NHQ ES people seem to keep to themselves.  The paid staff do not really make use of the volunteers out there who could do valuable things such as keep track and analyze this sort of data. 

You can get some minimal information on the web page, but they haven't updated the simple excel spreadsheets with AFRCC missions since FY04. 


Hotel 179

 

You can get some minimal information on the web page, but they haven't updated the simple excel spreadsheets with AFRCC missions since FY04. 


[/quote]

Hello All,

I call AFRCC at the close of the mission and give them the stats from the CAPF122....this has all of the information that an earlier post mentioned.  Have you set up a WMIRS account?  You can see every mission flown, or driven :) (if it was input).

Semper vi, y'all.

Stephen
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

A.Member

#52
Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 11, 2006, 04:54:58 AM
I call AFRCC at the close of the mission and give them the stats from the CAPF122....this has all of the information that an earlier post mentioned.  Have you set up a WMIRS account?  You can see every mission flown, or driven :) (if it was input).
But no one is making effective use of the data.  That's the issue.  We know the underlying data exists (or should exist) if we dig hard enough.  It needs to be grouped logically, brought forward, and exploited.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Hotel 179

Roger that....do you have a WMIRS account set up?  I get in there all the time and look at what everyone is doing.  There is a nation-wide status map for missions and aircraft status....interesting reading.

Stephen
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

A.Member

Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 11, 2006, 05:01:23 AM
do you have a WMIRS account set up?  I get in there all the time and look at what everyone is doing.  There is a nation-wide status map for missions and aircraft status....interesting reading.
I do but haven't poked around much. (sts)  Maybe I need to...
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

RiverAux

I did a little poking around but you really need some summary statistics to be useful.  I would hope that they would be doing that somewhere. 

ELTHunter

The last time I was in WMIRS, last week, it appeared that they are now only allowing people to see missions in their own Wing.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

A.Member

Quote from: ELThunter on December 12, 2006, 02:08:28 AM
The last time I was in WMIRS, last week, it appeared that they are now only allowing people to see missions in their own Wing.
That is what I found as well - data for my Wing only.  I don't know...perhaps there are different levels of auth.?

Quote from: RiverAux on December 12, 2006, 12:35:12 AM
I did a little poking around but you really need some summary statistics to be useful.  I would hope that they would be doing that somewhere. 
Agreed.  Aggregates for given periods of times at the various levels are really what is needed.  I also found some key data elements to be missing.  Obviously, reports are only as good as the underlying data but it's a start.  We could identify areas where data collection falls short.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Hotel 179

Quote from: A.Member on December 12, 2006, 04:50:09 AM
Quote from: ELThunter on December 12, 2006, 02:08:28 AM
The last time I was in WMIRS, last week, it appeared that they are now only allowing people to see missions in their own Wing.
That is what I found as well - data for my Wing only.  I don't know...perhaps there are different levels of auth.?

Hello, All.

On the left side of the WMIRS menu is a drop-down window that says "Tools and Utilities"....click there and see if it gives you the Report options as well as the National Mission Status and Aircraft Availability.

Semper vi,

Stephen
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

Lancer

News Update Bump...

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/1231/local/stories/civilairpatrolwoes.htm

Civil Air Patrol wanted to help in Kim family search

But their planes wouldn't have helped much in steep canyon terrain, sheriff says

Chris conrad
Mail Tribune

As the Josephine County Sheriff's Office sits sandwiched between reviews mandated by Gov. Ted Kulongoski and the Oregon State Sheriff's Association for its role in searching for the stranded Kim family, members of the local Civil Air Patrol wonder if they could've made a difference in the outcome.

But Jackson County Sheriff Mike Winters said enough of the right resources were in on the search in rugged mountainous terrain that wasn't suited to CAP's Cessna airplanes.

Robert Soltz, a five-year pilot with the Civil Air Patrol (CAP), described how he watched helplessly as rescue teams from all across the state combed the forests east of Merlin searching for the San Francisco family.

James and Kati Kim and their two young daughters got lost the night of Nov. 25 trying to cross Bear Camp Road through the Siskiyou National Forest during a winter storm. Days later, James Kim died of exposure while attempting to walk out for help.

And just as when the Higginbotham family got lost for two weeks in March on a remote road west of Glendale on their way to the coast, the Civil Air Patrol could do nothing but watch the drama unfold on television.

Advertisement
"We were never called, never asked for our expertise," Soltz said.

The CAP is a federally funded group of volunteers who aid law enforcement in searches when air surveillance is needed. They fly small Cessna planes outfitted with complex search equipment. They have one plane stationed permanently at the Medford Airport and six throughout the state, Soltz said.

"This is a free resource that is not being utilized," he added. "If it was a money issue I could understand it."

Soltz said the last time the CAP was called out for a search was in 2003.

And though Soltz acknowledges that no one can predict if the Kim story would've had a happy ending if the CAP was involved in the search, he is left wondering why they were never called to help.

In Oregon, the local sheriff's department acts as the first responder in searches. They have to make the call to the CAP when needed.

Winters said he isn't simply ignoring the CAP, they just weren't suited for the Kim or Higginbotham searches.

"Their (planes) aren't effective in deep canyon searches," Winters explained. "We had helicopters from all over in the area. A 'copter is better for searching in tall timber because it can fly at a lower altitude and can be used to drop teams into the site."

He also noted that having too many aircraft buzzing around a tight area could spell danger. In Winters' mind, there was enough traffic in the sky during the Kim search.

"I'm aware of the (CAP) and they're a good bunch of guys over there," the sheriff said. "If we need them, we'll call. They're just another tool in the toolbox."

Winters did say he would be meeting with CAP Capt. Larry Kendrick soon to iron out any differences the agencies may have. The meeting could happen right around the first of the year, he said.

Reach reporter Chris Conrad at 776-4471, or e-mail cconrad@mailtribune.com.

RiverAux

After this story their chances of being called by this Sheriff have dropped to about 0%.  Although he responded well, and probably correctly, you know he is not happy that the story is that he didn't use all available resources. 

This sort of story ranks very closely with the Pineda story for worse CAP coverage of the year.

Lancer

Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2006, 04:27:11 PM
After this story their chances of being called by this Sheriff have dropped to about 0%.  Although he responded well, and probably correctly, you know he is not happy that the story is that he didn't use all available resources. 

This sort of story ranks very closely with the Pineda story for worse CAP coverage of the year.

Let's not make this anymore than what it is.

Right now, as the article stated, the sheriff has agreed to meet and discuss options for future use of CAP, if Capt. Kendrick and whoever else joins him (Wing staffers) go about this meeting in a level headed and genuine manner then it should bode well for both parties.

The sheriff was right regarding Cessna's flying deep canyon searches, but as we all know, flying is not ALL we do, our membership is well qualified for ground search as well.

Regarding this article as being bad press for CAP, I don't see it that way. What I see a real concern on behalf of our members for wanting to be the valued resource we are. Simple as that. Let's not spin this into being negative for us.

RiverAux

I guarantee you that the sheriff is pizzed about this.  At a minimum it shows extremely poor judgement on the part of the local CAP in regards to what sort of statements they make.  Either they don't have anyone that knows the first thing about public affairs or the person there isn't very good at it.

I'll bet you that the Oregon Wing Commander will be on the phone with this squadron commander as soon as he sees it. 

The main question I have is whether the CAP people called the reporter and pushed this story or whether the reporter figured it out on their own and then called CAP for comment. 

QuoteWhat I see a real concern on behalf of our members for wanting to be the valued resource we are.
I fully understand that and I've felt the same way on occassion.  But it is not anything that ever should be expressed in public. 


Lancer

Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2006, 04:54:07 PM
But it is not anything that ever should be expressed in public. 

Please share some insight into this statement.



arajca

A couple points I see in the story:
1. A CAP pilot, appearently without a CAP duty assignement, complained about not being involved.
2. The reporter didn't properly describe CAP in the article.
3. The sheriff has not been informed about the many and varied skills and equipment CAP has at its disposal.
4. The sheriff is willing to talk to a CAP official about the situation.

The fact the sheriff is willing to meet and talk with a CAP official is a good start. CAP dropped the ball in keeping local officials informed about CAP. If the sheriff has much experience with volunteer organizations, he'll know that random members do spout off about involvement or lack thereof for their organizations. He'll also understand that the member does not represent CAP in any official capacity.

While we may feel it portrays CAP in a negative light, overall I think it will be a positive result.

isuhawkeye

This article clearly demonstrates the importance of relationships. 

Simply being an "Asset" isn't enough.  In order to develop the locally directed Title 10, and Especially Title 36 operations Cap needs to work closely with the controlling entity.  If you don't meet, train, and coordinate with the emergency responders in your area myths, and misconceptions develop.  CAP can easily be looked at as an inappropriate asset for a number of reasons, and in a time of crisis a sheriff is not going to bring in something he doesn't know of in advance.  This kind of article is a shame, and does very little to advance our operations within a jurisdiction.  I know that I have sat on the side lines for a number of major searches, and I have used those searches to facilitate discussion among the emergency responder community, but in my experience when those talks hit the media people stop talking. 

RiverAux

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on December 31, 2006, 05:57:00 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2006, 04:54:07 PM
But it is not anything that ever should be expressed in public. 

Please share some insight into this statement.


If someone in CAP thinks some other agency dropped the ball by not calling in CAP, you go talk to that person/agency directly about it in a constructive manner.  Getting the media involved in this sort of thing is NEVER a good idea.  Sure, it may have resulted in a meeting between the Sheriff and CAP, but the Sheriff was basically forced into doing it.  He isn't doing to tell the media that he doesn't want to meet with CAP cause that would make him look bad. 

If the squadron or Wing ES officer was on the ball they would be meeting with him and other county sheriffs on a regular basis anyway to discuss what CAP can do for them.  That is part of their job. 



isuhawkeye

http://www.ktvz.com/story.cfm?storyID=17789

The Gov. of Oregon has ordered a review of the Search and Rescue operation conducted to rescue the Kim Family.  Midway 6 has posted an article on this event in his blog

http://capblog.typepad.com/

I was interested to see the entities that Governor Kulongoski has met with the National Guard, State Troopers, and The National Guard regarding Search and Rescue at the state level.  When the investigation is complete a Task force will be compiled to ensure that SAR is managed more affectively in that state. 

It has been my experience that any large scale operation will generate lessons learned.  I hope that positive improvements come from such a tragic event.

RiverAux

I'm not at all surprised that the air operations in particular were critisized.  No county person, or probably even state police, are going to have any experience at all in the details of coordinating large numbers of air assets.  Even if CAP's planes weren't on duty a well-qualified group of CAP base staff might have been able to improve on this.  Besides the NG, who else does this? 

Now, even if thats the case, I wouldn't go saying it to a reporter.....

RiverAux

Believe it or not CAP national PA actually put a link to the story about  the CAP guy complaining about not being used up on CAP News Online.  I wonder if they've got a new guy up there or something because this is the second very questionable story that they have put up there recently that any experienced CAP PA person would have avoided or significantly modified. 

RiverAux

Holy cow.  Somebody high in national PA must read this blog because the story is already down.....  Second time a complaint here generated fairly fast action in removing a CAP News Online Story.

Now to quote from the pilot episode of friends...."And I just want a million dollars..."

JohnKachenmeister

Midway 6 posted a sattelite photo of the area.  It doesn't look that tough to fly over.  Elevation something over 2000 feet.  There's NO reason why CAP pilots could not have flown a search at 1500 AGL with helicopters doing close-in work.  All that was needed was some pilot-to-pilot coordination, or maybe a centralized air command staff element.

Tactful or not, the CAP pilot was right.  We might have made a life-or-death difference.
Another former CAP officer