Armed CAP Members

[RiverAux]

Because the CAP commander could potentially be charged with assault and could also be sued. 

[JeffDG]

Not likely.  If he says "You're not coming in here unless I search you for weapons" and you come in, you've consented.

[RiverAux]

The post that mentioned pat downs didn't say that the CAP member was consenting to them and from the context it was clear that were not talking about consenual searches. 

[Major Lord]

Its sounds like it might be fun, like going through Cadet's gear when they show up to encampment! My son the Spaatzenfuher for check told me about finding a kid with several hundred condoms. Its nice to know our cadets are optimistic.......

Patting fellow CAP members down? Does not sound like a great idea to me, but maybe your members make death threats against each other or smuggle ferrets illegally between States. Please god, no more Regs! If one our members can articulate a reasonable explanation why I should be searched, I get to pick which one I think is cutest. Its only fair.

Who knows what evil lies in the go-bag of a GTM? Smoke grenades? Altoids? I can't imagine a CAP memeber doing a vehicle search for contraband prior to field deployment, but I have had my gear list checked to make sure all the stuff we will need and is on the list is present. How in the world could I ever shut off an ELT on a flight line without my Machete and extra toilet paper?

Major Lord

[Ned]

To do a pat-down, a lot more then they have now. If a CAP commander ordered a member to submit to a pat-down they should  just walk away, if they laid a hand on them, well let just say their kid's college would be paid for by the commander....

Of course the member is free to walk away from any request made by a commander.  No one is suggesting that physical force should ever, ever be used to ensure compliance.

But if I were a unit commander and I asked to check the gear of a senior member to ensure compliance with regulations and that senior chooses to refuse and "walks away," they certainly have every right to do so.  (Like I said, commanders do not have any cop-like powers to physically force members to do anything.)

But a senior member who chooses not to submit would also be walking away from their membership and any further CAP participation.  If I were the commander.

But they sure get to choose. just like any adult.

[cap235629]

Just going to try to answer the original question. I know of no one currently authorized to carry a weapon in the name of CAP. Someone has already mentioned the Alaska exception and you've all debated the LE/CCW thing for a couple of pages now. However, if you go look at some of the historic photos from the WW2 days, you will see some aircrew members wearing .38s and  .45s.

http://www.caphistory.org/galleries/Hopper categories/Bases 17 & 19/pages/H_Base17%2619_012.htm

http://www.caphistory.org/galleries/Hopper%20categories/Bases%206%20&%2016/pages/H_Base6%2616_014.html

And the best one:    http://www.caphistory.org/galleries/Hopper%20categories/Base%2010/pages/H_Base10_009.html   

Even funnier to me is that most forget hat these weapons were more than likely ISSUED to CAP by the Air Corps.  Also remember that the bombs strapped to our planes during WWII were not member supplied.

[Hawk200]

But a senior member who chooses not to submit would also be walking away from their membership and any further CAP participation.  If I were the commander.

Dangerous ground. After all, if you're gonna check for weapons, what else will it eventually evolve into checking for? And it will evolve into something far worse.

You try to tell me that you're gonna pat me down, and if I don't I get terminated, you'd best lawyer up. I'd be fairly certain that CAP would wash their hands of you.

You wanna pat people down? Go join the TSA.

[cap235629]

But a senior member who chooses not to submit would also be walking away from their membership and any further CAP participation.  If I were the commander.

Dangerous ground. After all, if you're gonna check for weapons, what else will it eventually evolve into checking for? And it will evolve into something far worse.

You try to tell me that you're gonna pat me down, and if I don't I get terminated, you'd best lawyer up. I'd be fairly certain that CAP would wash their hands of you.

You wanna pat people down? Go join the TSA.

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

[NCRblues]

To do a pat-down, a lot more then they have now. If a CAP commander ordered a member to submit to a pat-down they should  just walk away, if they laid a hand on them, well let just say their kid's college would be paid for by the commander....

Of course the member is free to walk away from any request made by a commander.  No one is suggesting that physical force should ever, ever be used to ensure compliance.

But if I were a unit commander and I asked to check the gear of a senior member to ensure compliance with regulations and that senior chooses to refuse and "walks away," they certainly have every right to do so.  (Like I said, commanders do not have any cop-like powers to physically force members to do anything.)

But a senior member who chooses not to submit would also be walking away from their membership and any further CAP participation.  If I were the commander.

But they sure get to choose. just like any adult.

Wait, what?

Um, no CAP commander of a VOLUNTEER organization has a right or need to "pat" anyone down. Even working as a police officer I needed probable cause to pat someone down, and im sure showing up to a cap meeting does not meet the smell test on PC Ned.

That might fly in the united people's republic of kalifornia, but it won't fly in the Midwest. We like our right to privacy, and so does our court system out here....

[davidsinn]

To do a pat-down, a lot more then they have now. If a CAP commander ordered a member to submit to a pat-down they should  just walk away, if they laid a hand on them, well let just say their kid's college would be paid for by the commander....

Of course the member is free to walk away from any request made by a commander.  No one is suggesting that physical force should ever, ever be used to ensure compliance.

But if I were a unit commander and I asked to check the gear of a senior member to ensure compliance with regulations and that senior chooses to refuse and "walks away," they certainly have every right to do so.  (Like I said, commanders do not have any cop-like powers to physically force members to do anything.)

But a senior member who chooses not to submit would also be walking away from their membership and any further CAP participation.  If I were the commander.

But they sure get to choose. just like any adult.

Wait, what?

Um, no CAP commander of a VOLUNTEER organization has a right or need to "pat" anyone down. Even working as a police officer I needed probable cause to pat someone down, and im sure showing up to a cap meeting does not meet the smell test on PC Ned.

That might fly in the united people's republic of kalifornia, but it won't fly in the Midwest. We like our right to privacy, and so does our court system out here....

I'm quite surprised that a lawyer, of all people, is suggesting this...

[Ed Bos]

This was an interesting thread to follow, but to clarify:

The State of Alaska mandates certain survival equipment be carried on all flights within the state.

The relevant statute (Refer to AS 02.35.110 Emergency Rations and Equipment) used to include a firearm for protection from animals.

The firearm requirement is not longer a part of that statute.

Alaska Wing no longer has any authorized members that have firearms included in any of their equipment.

When this was law the firearms were intended to be stowed in the aircrew's survival gear, and not kept on their person. There was also problems with members not properly maintaining the firearms that were stowed in their gear (loaded with the same ammunition for several years at a time, and not being cleaned or checked on any regular schedule).

Just don't want misinformation about AK operations to keep being propagated.

[lordmonar]

But a senior member who chooses not to submit would also be walking away from their membership and any further CAP participation.  If I were the commander.

Dangerous ground. After all, if you're gonna check for weapons, what else will it eventually evolve into checking for? And it will evolve into something far worse.

You try to tell me that you're gonna pat me down, and if I don't I get terminated, you'd best lawyer up. I'd be fairly certain that CAP would wash their hands of you.

You wanna pat people down? Go join the TSA.

The difference being...the TSA is the goverenment that falls under one set of rules....and CAP falling under another.

Not that I am advocating a pat down/strip search in CAP.......but membership is a privlage not a right.  If the commander suspect that you are holding a concealed weapon, illicit drugs or other times considered illegal or dangerous to his members.....he can issue an order to search your person.  If you decide not to allow it.....well then he is within his authority as a commander to 2b you for not following orders.

Granted this is very far fetched.....but as a theoritical experiment into the powers and authority of a commander.....it is not outside the range of possibilities.

[JeffDG]

Wait, what?

Um, no CAP commander of a VOLUNTEER organization has a right or need to "pat" anyone down. Even working as a police officer I needed probable cause to pat someone down, and im sure showing up to a cap meeting does not meet the smell test on PC Ned.

That might fly in the united people's republic of kalifornia, but it won't fly in the Midwest. We like our right to privacy, and so does our court system out here....

Um...that's the point.  CAP is not the police, so things like "probable cause" are completely irrelevant.  You can always choose to leave rather than submit to the search.

[RiverAux]

Not that I am advocating a pat down/strip search in CAP.......but membership is a privlage not a right.  If the commander suspect that you are holding a concealed weapon, illicit drugs or other times considered illegal or dangerous to his members.....he can issue an order to search your person.  If you decide not to allow it.....well then he is within his authority as a commander to 2b you for not following orders.

A commander has to have authority to issue such an order in the first place if they expect a 2b based on the failure to follow an order to be upheld.  Is an order to submit to a pat-down valid?  How about an order to stand on one leg in the corner of the room?  An order to buy the commander a pizza?

[NCRblues]

Wait, what?

Um, no CAP commander of a VOLUNTEER organization has a right or need to "pat" anyone down. Even working as a police officer I needed probable cause to pat someone down, and im sure showing up to a cap meeting does not meet the smell test on PC Ned.

That might fly in the united people's republic of kalifornia, but it won't fly in the Midwest. We like our right to privacy, and so does our court system out here....

Um...that's the point.  CAP is not the police, so things like "probable cause" are completely irrelevant.  You can always choose to leave rather than submit to the search.

Ya, I am going to call BS. No one in CAP has the right to search you. If they feel like you are breaking the law they can call the police. If they feel you are being unsafe, they can send you home. That's about it. No CAP commander gets to pat me or anyone else down when I am around.

Is the corporation ready for discrimination lawsuit when the females of a unit are not searched? Is the corporation ready for the assault charges im going to file when a CAP squadron commander (also know as joe blow under the law, because a squadron commander is no different than anyone else under it) touches me in ANY way shape or form? Is the corporation ready for the sexual harassment lawsuits that are bound to come out of it when one squadron commander gets a little bit "grabby" during a search?

Are the squadron commanders trained in how to conduct a proper search? Who certified them? What sort of policy is in place for if something is found?

CAP is never going to allow this....ever. If I am ever searched (or attempted to be) by a CAP member ill get a good lawyer, and never have to work again in my life...

[JeffDG]

Wait, what?

Um, no CAP commander of a VOLUNTEER organization has a right or need to "pat" anyone down. Even working as a police officer I needed probable cause to pat someone down, and im sure showing up to a cap meeting does not meet the smell test on PC Ned.

That might fly in the united people's republic of kalifornia, but it won't fly in the Midwest. We like our right to privacy, and so does our court system out here....

Um...that's the point.  CAP is not the police, so things like "probable cause" are completely irrelevant.  You can always choose to leave rather than submit to the search.

Ya, I am going to call BS. No one in CAP has the right to search you. If they feel like you are breaking the law they can call the police. If they feel you are being unsafe, they can send you home. That's about it. No CAP commander gets to pat me or anyone else down when I am around.

Is the corporation ready for discrimination lawsuit when the females of a unit are not searched? Is the corporation ready for the assault charges im going to file when a CAP squadron commander (also know as joe blow under the law, because a squadron commander is no different than anyone else under it) touches me in ANY way shape or form? Is the corporation ready for the sexual harassment lawsuits that are bound to come out of it when one squadron commander gets a little bit "grabby" during a search?

Are the squadron commanders trained in how to conduct a proper search? Who certified them? What sort of policy is in place for if something is found?

CAP is never going to allow this....ever. If I am ever searched (or attempted to be) by a CAP member ill get a good lawyer, and never have to work again in my life...

Call BS on what?  That probable cause is irrelevant?

The organizers of an event have the right to exclude you for any reason they deem appropriate.  If they say "You need to be searched or leave" and you choose to stay, then you've made your choice.  This isn't a "special power" that belongs to CAP, but to all private organizations and individuals.  There is no legal requirement for training or non-discrimination.

[NCRblues]

Wait, what?

Um, no CAP commander of a VOLUNTEER organization has a right or need to "pat" anyone down. Even working as a police officer I needed probable cause to pat someone down, and im sure showing up to a cap meeting does not meet the smell test on PC Ned.

That might fly in the united people's republic of kalifornia, but it won't fly in the Midwest. We like our right to privacy, and so does our court system out here....

Um...that's the point.  CAP is not the police, so things like "probable cause" are completely irrelevant.  You can always choose to leave rather than submit to the search.

Ya, I am going to call BS. No one in CAP has the right to search you. If they feel like you are breaking the law they can call the police. If they feel you are being unsafe, they can send you home. That's about it. No CAP commander gets to pat me or anyone else down when I am around.

Is the corporation ready for discrimination lawsuit when the females of a unit are not searched? Is the corporation ready for the assault charges im going to file when a CAP squadron commander (also know as joe blow under the law, because a squadron commander is no different than anyone else under it) touches me in ANY way shape or form? Is the corporation ready for the sexual harassment lawsuits that are bound to come out of it when one squadron commander gets a little bit "grabby" during a search?

Are the squadron commanders trained in how to conduct a proper search? Who certified them? What sort of policy is in place for if something is found?

CAP is never going to allow this....ever. If I am ever searched (or attempted to be) by a CAP member ill get a good lawyer, and never have to work again in my life...

Call BS on what?  That probable cause is irrelevant?

The organizers of an event have the right to exclude you for any reason they deem appropriate.  If they say "You need to be searched or leave" and you choose to stay, then you've made your choice.  This isn't a "special power" that belongs to CAP, but to all private organizations and individuals.  There is no legal requirement for training or non-discrimination.

Cap can ask you to leave...that's about it. No cap member gets to search anyone. You feel I am hiding drugs, call the police. You feel I am being unsafe, send me home, but no one in CAP has the right to search a member.

Why don't you call up NHQ and ask if you are clear to conduct a TSA style "pat-down" next Tuesday meeting night, see what they have to say? Im 100% certain they will agree with me.

[Spaceman3750]

I think we've jumped the shark again...

[johnnyb47]

I believe this thread jumped the shark the moment it was started.
The problem is that you have a nearly unanswerable question. Even if a forum member posted that YES they were authorized and YES they did carry while on CAP missions you would have a new conversation in which multiple people would likely argue the legality and need for said authorization.
It's a pointless thread in which multiple times (even I tried to give a short-but-sweet answer) people have said "even if they are armed they aren't going to tell you."
That wasnt good enough so it evolved into "well if they aren't telling me and they aren't authorized we should pat down every member we feel necessary to make sure they aren't doing it......"

At best this thread should be generating laughs in the lobby, not in the safety section. (IMHO)

I've lurked on this forum for months just reading what you all have to say. I've learned a lot, really I have. I think much of what gets put up on this board is valuable information that every member should reference throughout their CAP career; but threads like this and other recent ones would scare me away as a new member or someone looking for information before signing up.

Just sayin'

[jimmydeanno]

I worked security for a few NFL games.  You wanted to enter the stadium, I got to pat you down.  Didn't want to submit, you go home, no refund. Nobody certified me, I just showed up and they said "Make sure these people don't have weapons or food."  It was a little awkward finding unwrapped steak and cheese sandwiches in someone's hood...but I digress.