Should we reclassify "senior members without grade" as "Airman"?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Why not start a CAP Officer Candidate school similar to what the State Defense Force do? That way new members wil have the rank of Officer Candidate until they complete OCS which then they can be 2nd LT's

If anything, we need to winnow down the bloated ranks of officers. CAP has people wearing officer rank who, under any other circumstance, would not. Officer candidate status is fine for aviators and special appointments, but for the run-of-the-mill member, it shouldn't be. How do we deal with the bloat?

— Fitness reports that assess competence and capability.

— Professional development that does more than paperwhip at the lowest levels. It isn't until LEVEL 2 that a senior member faces his/her first challenge and learning opportunity. Never mind testing. SLS should have a test at the end for passage, like HQ AU A4/6 Course 13. But Course 13 should be required before officer grade is ever issued. After all, it's the "CAP Officer Course," so why should you already be one before you take the darned thing?

— Initial training that requires basic competency in CAP history, some relevant ground work (could be two tracks, aviation and ground teams?), basic drill and ceremonies and customs and courtesies, uniform wear, interpersonal relations/CPPT, what it means to be a follower and leader, and what discipline in a military environment's all about. And a few other things, probably. More substantial than the open-book Level 1.

I've run out of steam. Feel free to pile on.

[DrJbdm]

ACA Officers earn their rank, they have a good program that makes you work for the responsibility of being an officer. You first have to be selected to attend OCS, then you have to attend up to three - one week OCS phases plus complete a reading list.

  Not everyone gets to become an officer. Those who are not officers are called Instructor, it's a two tiered system. Sea Cadets have the same thing except they do not require an OCS. But in most cases you have to serve one year as an instructor and for admin purposes you have the rank of Chief Petty Officer while in the Instructor ranks. Many people in the Sea Cadets never go thru the process to become an Officer.

   In order to become an officer you have to complete an Officer/Midshipman exam, kinda like our ECI but not as involved. It's still a pretty good gate keeper as many people lack the ability to study for and then pass a closed book exam. Once you are an officer in the Sea Cadets, you can only advance once there is a position created, in other words you can only have so many Lt. Commanders or so many Lt's running around. You can have as many ensigns as you wish and a few more Lt (JG) but anything above that and the amount of open billets decreases significantly. The highest rank earnable in the Sea Cadets is Lt. Commander. 

   It would be like CAP limiting the amount of people in a Wing or a Group who can be major and then even further limiting that number who can be Lt. Col.  Has to be an open position before you can be promoted. And you would be promoted based upon competitive process.   

     I still think CAP should tie rank in with AFIADL PME courses and require those for promotion, no waivers except for being appointed as Wing Commander or above. For instance:

ECI-13 plus level 2 = 2nd LT

Senior lever in tech rating plus TIG = 1st Lt

Squadron Officer School plus level 3 = Major

Air Command and Staff College plus level 4 = Lt. Col
 
Not sure what to do with Captain, but I am sure some more tasks can be created to earn that grade. The point is, we should have to EARN the grade, not have it given to us for hanging around long enoug

[Thom]

Given the sheer weight of momentum and tradition, I doubt there is any real likelihood of getting such radical changes to the CAP Officer rank and promotion structures anytime soon.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment.  When I got my recent promotion I was congratulated in front of the Squadron at our regular meeting, where I thanked everyone and told them how honored I was to receive these ButterBars in thanks for the hard labor I went through filling out the Form for my Mission-Related Skills Promotion.  Hardly the same gravitas as someone who has just finished OCS or ROTC.

Thom Hamilton

[MSgt Van]

Hardly the same gravitas as someone who has just finished OCS or ROTC.

That would be like comparing apples to hand grenades for sure...

[flyguy06]

Why not start a CAP Officer Candidate school similar to what the State Defense Force do? That way new members wil have the rank of Officer Candidate until they complete OCS which then they can be 2nd LT's

If anything, we need to winnow down the bloated ranks of officers. CAP has people wearing officer rank who, under any other circumstance, would not. Officer candidate status is fine for aviators and special appointments, but for the run-of-the-mill member, it shouldn't be. How do we deal with the bloat?

— Fitness reports that assess competence and capability.

— Professional development that does more than paperwhip at the lowest levels. It isn't until LEVEL 2 that a senior member faces his/her first challenge and learning opportunity. Never mind testing. SLS should have a test at the end for passage, like HQ AU A4/6 Course 13. But Course 13 should be required before officer grade is ever issued. After all, it's the "CAP Officer Course," so why should you already be one before you take the darned thing?

— Initial training that requires basic competency in CAP history, some relevant ground work (could be two tracks, aviation and ground teams?), basic drill and ceremonies and customs and courtesies, uniform wear, interpersonal relations/CPPT, what it means to be a follower and leader, and what discipline in a military environment's all about. And a few other things, probably. More substantial than the open-book Level 1.

I've run out of steam. Feel free to pile on.

I didnt say you had to have the same standard as themilitary. You dont have to have Fitness reports or any of that. But we doneed an oficer basic training course that teaches customs and curteousies, rank structure, leadership skills and formations. I know people are supposed to do that in Level 1, but i fear most people pencil whip that and dont really learn anything in it

[flyguy06]

ACA Officers earn their rank, they have a good program that makes you work for the responsibility of being an officer. You first have to be selected to attend OCS, then you have to attend up to three - one week OCS phases plus complete a reading list.

  Not everyone gets to become an officer. Those who are not officers are called Instructor, it's a two tiered system. Sea Cadets have the same thing except they do not require an OCS. But in most cases you have to serve one year as an instructor and for admin purposes you have the rank of Chief Petty Officer while in the Instructor ranks. Many people in the Sea Cadets never go thru the process to become an Officer.

   In order to become an officer you have to complete an Officer/Midshipman exam, kinda like our ECI but not as involved. It's still a pretty good gate keeper as many people lack the ability to study for and then pass a closed book exam. Once you are an officer in the Sea Cadets, you can only advance once there is a position created, in other words you can only have so many Lt. Commanders or so many Lt's running around. You can have as many ensigns as you wish and a few more Lt (JG) but anything above that and the amount of open billets decreases significantly. The highest rank earnable in the Sea Cadets is Lt. Commander. 

   It would be like CAP limiting the amount of people in a Wing or a Group who can be major and then even further limiting that number who can be Lt. Col.  Has to be an open position before you can be promoted. And you would be promoted based upon competitive process.   

     I still think CAP should tie rank in with AFIADL PME courses and require those for promotion, no waivers except for being appointed as Wing Commander or above. For instance:

ECI-13 plus level 2 = 2nd LT

Senior lever in tech rating plus TIG = 1st Lt

Squadron Officer School plus level 3 = Major

Air Command and Staff College plus level 4 = Lt. Col
 
Not sure what to do with Captain, but I am sure some more tasks can be created to earn that grade. The point is, we should have to EARN the grade, not have it given to us for hanging around long enoug

CAP needs a program similar to this except I disagree with limiting the amount of Majors, Lt Col's etc. Its a volunteer organization and youhave people thatmay want to sty for 20 or more years and that is fine.

But CAP definantly needs a standardized program that  intiates new members to a standard across the nation.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

There would be ABSOLUETLY NO SHAME in bringing new members in as airmen. Why do some of us have such a hesitation on this? All chiefs, no Indians makes CAP a dull organization (or one with power struggles it could otherwise avoid).

[RiverAux]

In a vain attempt to bring the topic back on point, I note that with the revised questions and greater poll participation, we now see that real opposition to my proposal (or the Officer Candidate proposal) isn't that strong.   In fact, there appears to be an even split between Airman, O Candidate, and "I really like SMWOG" with the largest group of folks who don't care what we do or think that it is a slight problem, but probably not worth addressing.

What that says to me is that if someone really wanted to push for Airman or Officer Candidate the next time the reg is up for review that it would probably be generally accepted by most CAP members.

Of course, finding a NB member willing to put the proposal up and fight for it might be hard.     

[Major Carrales]

(I hope this illustrates the point of how pointless this type of discussion actually is)

I wouldn't consider any reasonable discussion of an issue to be pointless.

It is here...if you have a real change worth discussing you would submit it up the chain of command instead of hoping it gains traction here.

[Rotorhead]

There would be ABSOLUETLY NO SHAME in bringing new members in as airmen. Why do some of us have such a hesitation on this?

Because what we have now works just fine.

This organization sees enough change for the sake of change as it is already.

[flyguy06]

So, how do we get the ball rolling?

[AirDX]

Seems like the one thread on consensus in all the above is to beef up requirements for promotion.

I'd certainly agree tha ECI 13 should be required before promotion to 2LT, and other PME/CAP Levels before further promotion.

Maybe that needs to be the starting point for change, rather than an enormous reorganization of the entire grade structure.

How about...

Open the Flight Officer/TFO/SFO ranks to all ages.  Unless an individual completes PME, there they stay.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

Then... require ECI 13 for promotion to 2LT (or above with mission related skills). 

[Major Carrales]

Then... require ECI 13 for promotion to 2LT (or above with mission related skills).

A suggestion made by me and various other at this and other CAP forums since 2005.  Propose it an run it up the chain.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

OK, then, let me throw this out there...

We revert to the old Air Force warrant officer insignia, and ditch the hard-to-read, incomprehensible CAP flight officer bars. There's five grades, if I remember right, though only one Airman ever wore CWO5.

The Navy's warrant officer bars may be easier to read (with the darker blue), in the (likely) event the Air Force-spec bars aren't available. Gray epaulets could be made quickly with the bars embroidered (versus the much-misunderstood stripes FOs wear now).

How it could work:

WO1: New members, post-Level 1 and CPPT, issued no earlier than six months after member joins. Mitchell Award recipients transitioning before age 21.
CWO2: Technician level in specialty track. Earhart Award recipients transitioning before age 21.
CWO3: Senior level in specialty track, Level 2 completion. Eaker Award recipients transitioning before age 21.
CWO4: Spaatz Award recipients transitioning before age 21 (there won't be many).

To second lieutenant: HQ AU A4/6 Course 13 would become mandatory before a duty-performance promotion would be authorized.

Incidentally... "Officer Candidate"?!: That's the Army terminology. Pretty sure the Air Force calls them "officer trainees."

[Al Sayre]

Before everyone jumps on the ECI-13 band wagon; I'd suggest that the course be updated, made easier to obtain, and printed in a legible document...

[wuzafuzz]

Before everyone jumps on the ECI-13 band wagon; I'd suggest that the course be updated, made easier to obtain, and printed in a legible document...

^ +1000   :clap:

Fortunately, this is reportedly in the works.  ETA between 2010 - 2020??? 

[DrJbdm]

   Made easier to obtain? it's not a hard test now. it's simply a closed book test with out-dated material. But seeing how the current model actually has a benefit of college credit hours attached if you pass, it makes it a good deal.

  The new on-line version will be an open book test, correctable to 100%. what that really means is that it is impossible to fail the test. If you take it and make a 52% you simply review the answers you had wrong and poof, it's now a 100%. That my friends is not how you learn. Nor is that a gate keeper of any sort. You have simply cheapened the exam. Look at what they did with the Yeager award. Now everyone has it, it's no longer the study for and pass exam it used to be, it doesn't mean anything anymore since they made it online, open book.

    Keep it a closed book, proctored exam that allows you to fail and you have now made it worth something. If you cannot pass the exam, then you have no right to think you should be a CAP Officer. It's not that hard of an exam to begin with. I studied for a couple of hours over two days and I scored in the 90th percentile.

[Al Sayre]

I don't have any problem with it being a proctored exam, I'd just like to see it updated, so simple to procure that even the newest member can order it (Like "click here to order course, click here to order exam and viola! It shows up at your squadron in a week or two.) and printed so that you can actually read it.  I know when I received my course material it looked like it was xeroxed from a bad mimeograph copy of a bad photcopy of a book... 

[DrJbdm]

I agree that the course material needs to be of much higher quality. I would still like to see the exam administered thru ADIADL but with an easier way of ordering the exam.

[DrJbdm]

Probably the easiest way of doing the course is to send the material over the web, allow the member reasonable time to review the course and study the material and then order the exam to be sent to the testing officer. It still needs a hard time limit with a waiting period between terms just as the ECI-13 course is set up.