Virginia Wing's "Wing Bank Solution"

[ADCAPer]

My problem with this whole thing is that those are considered national funds in the first place. I mean if CAP nationally were sued for a billion dollars & had to start coming up with cash, they couldn't take money from those local accounts to meet that obligation, because they are not signers & it's not their property.

Well, National can say that no one other than the local units can touch local funds, but, like it or not, once you are under the WBP you have surrendered the "control" of your local funds. Your funds will be deposited into an account that is controlled by the Wing and you only have "requesting authority" for your funds. (The Wing is in fact the ultimate signature authority because they are the only ones on the accounts)

Since everything belongs to CAP as a national organization I don't see why they couldn't simply confiscate these funds if the need arose.

[Johnny Yuma]

This whole Wing Banker BS is more proof that CAP, Inc. will throw Joe Average member under the bus if it's in the best interest of CAP, Inc.

All unit funds raised belong to NHQ once you deposit the funds. If your unit folded with $30,000 in the bank that money will end up either in the Wing Kitty or NHQ's, probably the latter. Mark my words: There will be some A-hole Wing Kings that will skim unit funds for Wing use and others will make units jump through hoops to get the money they deposit.

The solution is simple: Set up a unit booster club, do all fundraising through the booster club and have the booster club "donate" the funds every time your unit needs them.

[ADCAPer]

The solution is simple: Set up a unit booster club, do all fundraising through the booster club and have the booster club "donate" the funds every time your unit needs them.

Well, I'm not sure at this point if that's truly a workable solution, unless you have someone who is completely outside the organization running it, and even then it looks like a quick way to a lot of trouble.

You can tell from Nationals "Policy Letter" which came out last December that they haven't quite figured out how to completely strip the local squadrons of control of all of their funds, that's why Paragraph 1b states that "CAP policy regarding "booster clubs," organizations created to support local units, is being formulated."

Seems pretty clear that just as soon as someone finds a way to locally acquire funds that are not under the direct control of the Wings that their money making program will suddenly be in conflict with whatever policy National can formulate! And we've already seen time and time again that Regulations can be re-written overnight with no coordination to ensure that National is in the right.

[JohnKachenmeister]

This whole Wing Banker BS is more proof that CAP, Inc. will throw Joe Average member under the bus if it's in the best interest of CAP, Inc.

All unit funds raised belong to NHQ once you deposit the funds. If your unit folded with $30,000 in the bank that money will end up either in the Wing Kitty or NHQ's, probably the latter. Mark my words: There will be some A-hole Wing Kings that will skim unit funds for Wing use and others will make units jump through hoops to get the money they deposit.

The solution is simple: Set up a unit booster club, do all fundraising through the booster club and have the booster club "donate" the funds every time your unit needs them.

CAP exists to serve the United States, not the members.  Let's keep that in mind.

I can't say you are wrong about one or more Wing Kings trying to steal money.  There are a couple of safeguards against this that are commonsense:

1.  Someone other than the Wing King actually controls the money, and writes the checks.

2.  Units should review their statements, and challenge any unauthorized expenditures.

I don't think there will ever be a wing commander who would simply impound the funds, like Hugo Chavez nationalizing oil companies.  That move would be instantly obvious, and would effectively kill the program nationally.  Anybody who tried that would end up going to jail.

[SAR-EMT1]

What if the person responsible is entrenched with folks he or she appoints?

This is one reason why I HATE politics and porporate mentalities.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Then they BOTH go to jail.  Politics is one reason that federal prisons are overcrowded.

[JohnKachenmeister]

And hey... they might get to share a cell with a former Navy ace from the Vietnam War.  Instead of "Hangar Flying" they can do "Cellblock Flying!"

[Eclipse]

CAP exists to serve the United States, not the members.  Let's keep that in mind.

Agreed, but the Wings and Groups are there to suport the needs of the units, in their work to serve America.

The inidvidual unit is the only "Actor" echelon in the USCAP...

[ZigZag911]

As a group commander, my staff & I always sought to provide the units any support they needed, as far as we were able...including financial (sometimes from individuals, more often in the form of grants or loans from the group treasury).

I know this next part is going to go against the grain, but, in the other direction, far from the Wing HQ seeking to sink their hands into our funds, on numerous occasions the wing made grants, gifts, or budget allocations to the groups (earmarked for the support of the squadrons in the group).

This was not simply under one wing administration, but through a series of wing CCs over the past ten to twelve years.

Are we particularly fortunate in this wing?

Or is there at least some level of (understandable) paranoia on this topic?

[arajca]

I think part of the issue is the seemingly high turnover at the upper echelons without appearent reason during the past two years.

[lordmonar]

Then this program is 100% >WRONG< and should be stopped immediately. Anything which is not to the benefit of the units and the membership is ass-backwards.

Gods...Bob!  This in the long run will benefit the units and membership by increasing the number of large dollar donors who right now will not touch us!  I checked this last CFC and CAP was NOT included in it!  How much money is simply being lost because no one is knows about us?  The United Way will not touch us...because they want to know it is being used more or less wisely.  When CAP can't account for "THEIR" money (and your squadron slush funds are CAP monies) no one wants to give us more.

This program is not perfect....but it was the "best" way to correct the problem of not being able to get a qualified audit.

Granted it is not as easy for squadron to make a quick purchase....but that is the cost of getting a qualified audit.   

That's why its called "commander's discretion" - another area where we are not the RealMilitary® and I'm quite fine with that. If we want to play with the big guys, and look like the big guys, it costs money.

You think that the RealMilitary® is not just or more complicated in dealing with "unit money".  Let me tell you right now as someone who has dealt with several different colors of military and government monies.....there is no such thing as "commander's discretion" on where and how money is spent.  Yes there are soda/booster club/stripes/landing fees and other sort of un-official funds...but there are regulations about how much money and merchandise they can have on hand.  On-base private organizations are strictly controlled and audited by the base services squadron.  They have to make sure they have non-profit status and the have to submit their IRS paper work or they are not allowed to operate on base.

[lordmonar]

The purpose of the wing banker program is to allow CAP to get an "unqualified" audit rating. Which will allow CAP to compete for larger grants and funding, much of which CAP, with its current "qualified" rating, is not eligible for.

Right - which is ridiculous show me a single instance where an informed donor, without some silly agenda, decided not to donate a significant sum of money because we have qualified audits.

You can't.

We are not part of CFC because we can't produce an unqualified audit.

All the big-ticket stuff comes from Uncle Sam, and nothing at the unit level is ever going to be impacted by an audit.

Want unqualified audits?  Kick unit CC ass on the regs.  Just because you have reduced the hands in the pot, doesn't mean the money will be managed any better.  Will still get qualified audits but now we'll be able to blame Wing.

Great plan.

That is one option....how many squadrons will suddenly find themselves with out any leadership?  Look at what happen to CAWG.  The CC gets canned because she did not want to follow the rules.....and it seemed like more than half the wing was ready to quit.  If we started to fire unit CC's....how many of them have a replacement waiting to take over?   Or are you just suggesting we pick one or two in each wing to be our examples to make sure all the rest fall in line?

With the Wing Banking Plan...it will be easier to identify which squadrons are operating with out declaring their funds and to take appropriate steps.  It will be easer for Wings/regions/national to account for our funds and produce that unqualified audit.

[lordmonar]

My problem with this whole thing is that those are considered national funds in the first place. I mean if CAP nationally were sued for a billion dollars & had to start coming up with cash, they couldn't take money from those local accounts to meet that obligation, because they are not signers & it's not their property.

Denis,

The funds have always been nationals.  Even way back when in the dim ages....CAP is not a conglomeration of hundreds of little corporations all under an umbrella organization.  Each unit is part of the the whole corporation...so that $10 unit dues you collect "belong" to CAP....not the North Podunk Composite Squadron.  Always have.

The best fix to get an unqual'd audit is seperation. Either charter units as subsidiary corps so their money is not legally national's money, or establish a seperate national foundation with the soul purpose of obtaining & managing funds for the support of CAP. That foundation can then get the clean audit & apply for the grants, which it can then distribute freely within CAP.

Gods....That is supposed to make things easier?  Each unit having to submit a separate IRS report.  Each unit owing their assets.  With each unit being its own corporation, national would loose all legal control over the units.  The unit could decide to do what it wanted and National would have no LEGAL basis to stop them...they could not fire the commander, could not get back any assets they gave the unit.  Each and every unit would have to a have a separate MOU to be able to work with the wing on ES.

On the whole, the previous system was fine if executed, the new system is not going to reduce the amount of money people put into things, just like Vanguard decreased the number of cadets in correct uniform because of supply issues.

Well that's the rub....the old system had no way to enforce.  If a unit commander quit and took the squadron funds with him....no one knew how much was missing.  Because it was just as easy to keep it in a drawer in the office and to hand out cash as needed.  No need to sigh checks, no need for two person integrity and no way for wing to check up on you.

Now...it is easer to check up on units.  If they are collecting dues and not sending them up to the wing...you can start an investigation.  If you hear about a fund raiser but don't see any activity in the account you can check up on it.

Yes...it is harder/slower getting paid when you put up your own money to get things done.  That just means we need to do more planning to make sure we are not doing that.

[lordmonar]

This whole Wing Banker BS is more proof that CAP, Inc. will throw Joe Average member under the bus if it's in the best interest of CAP, Inc.

All unit funds raised belong to NHQ once you deposit the funds. If your unit folded with $30,000 in the bank that money will end up either in the Wing Kitty or NHQ's, probably the latter. Mark my words: There will be some A-hole Wing Kings that will skim unit funds for Wing use and others will make units jump through hoops to get the money they deposit.

The solution is simple: Set up a unit booster club, do all fund raising through the booster club and have the booster club "donate" the funds every time your unit needs them.

Johnny...this has always been the case.....find and old copy of the finance reg.  It stated in black and white that funds left over when a unit folded went to national.  Wing Banking does nothing to change this....except the money is already in wings hands and is harder to get to by unscrupulous individuals just before the skip town.

Yes you are right....there is the possibility that the wing/regional/national may divert money to other uses.   Welcome to the real military.  Nothing new about that and we can only hope that the write the regulations to make this harder if not impossible.

Bottom line.  Unit funds are CAP funds....always have and always will.

[lordmonar]

CAP exists to serve the United States, not the members.  Let's keep that in mind.

Agreed, but the Wings and Groups are there to support the needs of the units, in their work to serve America.

The individual unit is the only "Actor" echelon in the USCAP...

No...not correct.  UNITS are not the only active units in CAP....in fact most units could not successfully perform any CAP's assigned missions by themselves.  Sorry it's not the way it is.

Here is my proof.

Specifically what is your unit's document statement in executing CAP's Congressionally appointed missions?

By that I mean....is your unit tasked to provide x number of qualified pilots?  x number of qualified ground teams? X number of radio Operators?  X AE instructors?  X number of anything?

The answer is no.

UNITS ARE NOT TASKED TO PERFORM MISSIONS.

Wings are.  They are assigned X number of aircraft and the Wing Commander is tasked with conducting CAP operations within the borders of his state.

Wings are the only units specifically tasked with missions.

Units are a convenient way of organizing the corporation....heck look at IOWG.  The came right out and said that they are taking operational control of ES away from units and managing and running at the wing level.

[JohnKachenmeister]

That's true, Pat.

Units have no operational missions.  The duty of the unit commander is to provide trained members to the Incident commander.  Units are nothing more than local training stations.

We don't deploy as units and we don't carry out our missions as units.  The first thing we do when a mission happens is throw unit integrity out the window and organize a mission task force.

[Dragoon]

To be fair, the cadet program is primarily a "unit mission."  Other than one encampment, a cadets whole association with CAP can be done at the squadron level.

The same isn't true of any of our other Missions for America.  All of those are managed at the Wing level, with squadrons acting as force providers.

That said, there really is no way out of centralization of funds.  Not if you want to claim any kind of "government-ness" in the organization.

All the money in a squadron is Wing money.  And more importantly, CAP money. 



I've seen units fold, or a commander leave,  and suddenly no one knows where the money is.  Unit level record keeping is a problem in all assets of CAP, including finance.

The CONCEPT of administering the funds at Wing level is a good one.  I think it has two real risks.

1.  Finding someone willing to do the administration.  Most wings have problems finding a good Wing finance officer now, and the job just go a lot harder.

2.  If a Wing does choose to "rob Peter to pay Paul" with unit funds, they'll probably find that units stop trying to raise funds.

[jimmydeanno]

1.  Finding someone willing to do the administration.  Most wings have problems finding a good Wing finance officer now, and the job just go a lot harder.

VAWG uses the paid wing administrator to keep the records and such, and uses the volunteers to sign the checks.  Since the administrator doesn't come out of wing $ you don't have to worry about the Wing using local accounts to pay for the administration.

[Galahad]

...Mark my words: There will be some A-hole Wing Kings that will skim unit funds for Wing use and others will make units jump through hoops to get the money they deposit.

Yes you are right....there is the possibility that the wing/regional/national may divert money to other uses.   Welcome to the real military.  Nothing new about that and we can only hope that the write the regulations to make this harder if not impossible.

The latest edition of CAPR 173-2 prohibits wings from using squadron funds in the above manner.  From Section 7.p:

p. All wings participating in the Wing Banker Program will establish and maintain consolidated checking and savings accounts designated for the units below wing level. Wings will not be permitted to co-mingle wing funds with subordinate unit funds nor use subordinate unit funds for any purpose not approved by the subordinate unit.

And from Section 6.h:

h. Wings participating in the Wing Banker Program will provide the subordinate units with financial reporting regarding their cash and investment balances and expenditures at least quarterly.

The 8NOV06 revisions to CAPR 173-1 and CAPR 173-2 provided no such protection of unit funds under the WBP.  Almost everything associated with the WBP was contained in various "policy letters" but not encoded in CAP regulations. Certain squadrons noted said lack of protection, eventually resulting in the 11FEB07 revisions to CAPR 173-1 and CAPR 173-2.

Furthermore, squadron financial officers (or their designee) now have the right to independently audit the wing financial records. From CAPR 173-2:

16. Financial Records. All financial records must be made available to the commanders, region/wing director of finance, members of region/wing/unit finance committees, wing financial analysts, CAP/FM, State and United States Government auditors, external auditors, CAP/IG, or any CAP-USAF personnel.

Squadrons have thus been given the authority, power, and responsibility to ensure that their funds are used properly under the WBP.  But will they actually employ that authority, or will those sections of the regulations quietly disappear without fanfare during future revisions?

[Galahad]

Come to think of it, why couldn't units be allowed debit cards?

Padewan, lost a petty cash fund you have? The means to retrieve it has been cloaked. Look carefully. Contain the legal solution you seek CAPR 173-1 and 173-2 do... 

Sorry, I speak Vulcan and a smattering of Klingon, but NO Yodaese!
What's your point?

"Many seek the grail, but only the most [credit] worthy will succeed in their quest."

Okay, no more word puzzles. 
The earlier thread discussion was essentially about how to maintain the squadron's ability to spend money without waiting up to 2-weeks to get a check request fulfilled from wing HQ. Debit cards were mentioned, but these are prohibited by CAPR 173-1.  And obviously a debit card under the WBP would give any squadron access to all squadron funds in the wing, not just their own.  However, unit credit cards are not prohibited by the WBP.  (See CAPR 173-1 Section 10. )   All you have to do is convince a credit issuing organization that you're credit-worthy even though you don't have a "local" checking account. 

Another advantage of holding a squadron credit card is that you can pay the squadron phone and electric bills on an emergency basis if wing drops the ball and doesn't get your check request done in time, or they fail to make the scheduled payment on your behalf.