Virginia Wing's "Wing Bank Solution"

[jimmydeanno]

Someone earlier in the thread said no one from VAWG is jumping up and down about the greatness of the program, or something to that effect.

I will agree that it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but would consider it to be equal in terms of "management" as the previous one.  You still need finance committee minutes and approval, you still need to keep receipts, etc.  The advantage therein lies in the additional grants and monies that CAP can compete for now.

We have wing questioning our use of funds after we've approved it.

My squadron never had this happen, in VAWG.  The only "questioning" I saw was when the "price limit" was reached without a finance committee approval.

We have to submit more paperwork than if we had simply had to conduct an audit each year.

Only in terms of check requests, but that's just good practice anyway.  It ensures that checks are being sent to the right people, and are "approved."

Funds are drawn from the account occasionally without our asking so we have to go back to question them.

Never had that happen either.  The only monies that were withdrawn "without knowing" were tie down fees for the group, but that was known before hand.  When they did it was the "unknown."

We have discussed asking for an audit now of Wing due to the issues our squadron has encountered.

That's a shame that your squadron is encountering these issues. 

If this was a simple process of submit a form electronically it would be fine.

All of our transactions were submitted electronically.  Scan in the receipt, e-mail it to wing, scan in the check request, e-mail it to wing, we didn't find it that tedious or time consuming.

We have to submit a spreadsheet detailing where everything is going or where it went in the case of a reimbursement.

Of course they want to know where the money went.  Your unit finance officer needed that information too so when they submitted the finance report the corporation knew what "accounts" to charge the money to for tax purposes, etc.  It's not different information than from before.

Then they want the receipts as well.

Of course they do, it's good record keeping.  It looks pretty bad to have all sorts of outgoing checks and no justification for them...

For crying out loud it is our money that we raised.  Not money the wing gave to us.

It still is the money you raised.  The person handling the accounting at wing just wants the information required.  All the information they want is all information that your unit finance officer would need as well.  Your unit finance officer would need the receipts, finance committee approvals, etc.  It really is no different, in fact I think it was easier than locally managed funds.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Harry:

Sorry, I went back and re-read the posts, and actually you talked about OTHERS quitting.

The purpose of this program is NOT to make life easier for the unit.  The purpose is to make life easier for National and their auditors.  There will be some difficulties in transitioning to this program.  There are ways to make it easier and still stay legal.  We will find them.

As far as "Slush funds" "Flower funds" "Officer funds" and "Other funds," my advice to you is ask the Chaplain or MLO about the 11th Commandment:  "Thou shalt not get caught doing any of the above."

As a reserve unit commander, we had a slush fund, which we used for hail and farewell gifts, flowers for dead and hospitalized soldiers, and once in a while for pizza to give the cooks a break.  I just made sure that the cash box was in my personal locker and not in the safe when the IG came around.  We dinged each officer $2 per drill weekend and each NCO $1 per drill weekend.  We also would sell beer and sodas after drill a few weekends each year.  All of this was completely illegal.  But family members were all pleased when a floral arrangement arrived at the funeral home "From the officers and troops of Headquarters Company, 300th Military Police Command."

[capchiro]

John, Sounds like you and I would get along fine.  Slush fund?  We got no stinkin' slush fund..  It always amazes me that Wing, Region, and finally National find it so easy to forget that there purpose in live is to support the squadron..this thing has gotten so screwed up it seems more like a Ponzi scheme than what it should be.  I will survive.  The greatest reward I have received (I have never had the pleasure of finding survivors on my searches), has been to see the cadets grow and mature through the program.  We just had a female cadet graduate from Air Force Basic last month.  She was a Mitchell and is in school for Security as an E-3 now.  Somehow, somewhere, I was part of that.  Her Dad, one of our members, has repeatedly thanked my wife and myself for the time and effort we put into her and what a difference it made.  Just as an example of the program, we received a call from this girl, hysterical, and she had run away from home.  This was a Sunday at 3:00 p.m.  We picked her up and spent the day with her calming her down and then got her Dad to come to sit down with all of us to try and talk it out.  We got home about 1:00 a.m. and things were okay.  We didn't have a mission number and didn't get a ribbon, but we saved a cadet and I think it was all worthwhile.  Does anybody above squadron level even know what we do down here?  I think I am singing to the choir as I am sure almost everyone on this board has similar stories and successes to share..but that is because almost everybody on this board is at the squadron level and knows what's what.  John, keep on keeping on and I will too.  Harry

[ZigZag911]

John,

We never had a 'slush fund' when I was Group CC....what we had was a finance officer and finance committee that saw things as clearly as you do, and had no qualms about dedicating some of the member-raised funds to morale maintaining activities -- an annual dinner for group staff & squadron CCs, 'coffee and' at Level 1s and similar training events, sympathy cards or congratulatory cards on appropriate occasions.....I think we entered most of it as "senior activities", had receipts for all, of course, and never got questioned, not even during change of command audit when I moved on.

Of course that would not work in the reserves or active military, different rules apply.

Harry, you reminded me of a cadet I had back in the mid 80s....lot of potential, not much encouragement at home....his mom was fighting cancer, dad struggling with that and his own business....kid seemed headed nowhere, we (my squadron commander & I, mostly) spent a lot of time with him, mentored him, motivated him to improve in school, to get his Earhart, to get involved with CAC and other wing activities.

I left the unit just before he graduated high school....lost touch while he was in community college....fast forward to around 1995, when I get a call out of the blue from this former cadet, calling to thank me -- he had finished college, was finishing his last year of law school, and was engaged!

They're not all success stories, but enough are, and they are all worth the effort..

[Eclipse]

The purpose of this program is NOT to make life easier for the unit.  The purpose is to make life easier for National and their auditors.  There will be some difficulties in transitioning to this program. 

Then this program is 100% >WRONG< and should be stopped immediately. Anything which is not to the benefit of the units and the membership is ass-backwards. 

As far as "Slush funds" "Flower funds" "Officer funds" and "Other funds," my advice to you is ask the Chaplain or MLO about the 11th Commandment:  "Thou shalt not get caught doing any of the above."

Unit funds are, and will continue to be, spent at the discretion of the unit CC with the approval of the finance committee. What some think is a waste, others would consider the cost of doing professional business.

You get tens of thousands of dollars in free services from a municipal airport?  You better believe there's flowers at unit expense if the manager dies, and a unit coin or patch tucked in your fingers when you shake hands and say thank you for letting us "play with you" to the local PD, FD or military commander, goes further than you can even imagine towards the image.

Can all units afford this?  No, but they probably aren't running a full ES program including aircraft, either, so its a wash. 

That's why its called "commander's discretion" - another area where we are not the RealMilitary® and I'm quite fine with that. If we want to play with the big guys, and look like the big guys, it costs money.

[arajca]

The purpose of this program is NOT to make life easier for the unit.  The purpose is to make life easier for National and their auditors.  There will be some difficulties in transitioning to this program. 

Then this program is 100% >WRONG< and should be stopped immediately. Anything which is not to the benefit of the units and the membership is ass-backwards. 

The purpose of the wing banker program is to allow CAP to get an "unqualified" audit rating. Which will allow CAP to compete for larger grants and funding, much of which CAP, with its current "qualified" rating, is not eligible for.

As far as "Slush funds" "Flower funds" "Officer funds" and "Other funds," my advice to you is ask the Chaplain or MLO about the 11th Commandment:  "Thou shalt not get caught doing any of the above."

Unit funds are, and will continue to be, spent at the discretion of the unit CC with the approval of the finance committee. What some think is a waste, others would consider the cost of doing professional business.

You get tens of thousands of dollars in free services from a municipal airport?  You better believe there's flowers at unit expense if the manager dies, and a unit coin or patch tucked in your fingers when you shake hands and say thank you for letting us "play with you" to the local PD, FD or military commander, goes further than you can even imagine towards the image.

Can all units afford this?  No, but they probably aren't running a full ES program including aircraft, either, so its a wash. 

That's why its called "commander's discretion" - another area where we are not the RealMilitary® and I'm quite fine with that. If we want to play with the big guys, and look like the big guys, it costs money.

Nothing I have seen or experienced in using the wing banker program restricts how a unit spends its funds. The finance committee makes a decision and the papers get signed. Simple.

[Eclipse]

The purpose of the wing banker program is to allow CAP to get an "unqualified" audit rating. Which will allow CAP to compete for larger grants and funding, much of which CAP, with its current "qualified" rating, is not eligible for.

Right - which is ridiculous show me a single instance where an informed donor, without some silly agenda, decided not to donate a significant sum of money because we have qualified audits.

You can't.

All the big-ticket stuff comes from Uncle Sam, and nothing at the unit level is ever going to be impacted by an audit.

Want unqualified audits?  Kick unit CC ass on the regs.  Just because you have reduced the hands in the pot, doesn't mean the money will be managed any better.  Will still get qualified audits but now we'll be able to blame Wing.

Great plan.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The purpose of the wing banker program is to allow CAP to get an "unqualified" audit rating. Which will allow CAP to compete for larger grants and funding, much of which CAP, with its current "qualified" rating, is not eligible for.

Right - which is ridiculous show me a single instance where an informed donor, without some silly agenda, decided not to donate a significant sum of money because we have qualified audits.

You can't.

All the big-ticket stuff comes from Uncle Sam, and nothing at the unit level is ever going to be impacted by an audit.

Want unqualified audits?  Kick unit CC ass on the regs.  Just because you have reduced the hands in the pot, doesn't mean the money will be managed any better.  Will still get qualified audits but now we'll be able to blame Wing.

Great plan.

Single instance?  There are two, at least.

Neither United Way nor the Combined Federal Campaign will disburse funds to organizations that cannot produce an unqualified audit.

I agree, the "Qualification" on the audit is, in our opinion, no big deal.  There are locally-raised funds spent by local units on local stuff.  BUT, the fact that the National organization cannot statehow much is out there, nor precisely how much is spent and how, is of critical importance to auditors.

My problem is that the plan virtually assues that units will maintain closet cash accounts.  "Slush funds" is a harsh word, but "Coffee fund" and "Flower fund" are the same things.  In theory, one can still spend unit funds on unit activities at the discretion of the unit commander.  But try to find a pizza delivery restaurant that will bring pizzas out to the airport on a promise to pay later.  The commander will dip into the coffee fund, collect an extra dollar from each officer, and the party is on. 

Its illegal, and as an IG I'd have to tell you not to do it.  On an inspection, I would list such a fund as a "Finding" if you are dumb enough to tell me about it, or (As an Army unit did once) leave cash in the safe next to the key box in a manila envelope labeled "Unit Slush Fund."

But it almost HAS to happen under this prgram, just as it did in the RealMilitary, where it's just as illegal.

[mikeylikey]

My problem is that the plan virtually assues that units will maintain closet cash accounts.  "Slush funds" is a harsh word, but "Coffee fund" and "Flower fund" are the same things.  In theory, one can still spend unit funds on unit activities at the discretion of the unit commander.  But try to find a pizza delivery restaurant that will bring pizzas out to the airport on a promise to pay later.  The commander will dip into the coffee fund, collect an extra dollar from each officer, and the party is on. 

I had a "flower fund" in my last command that was never used for flowers in over 2 years.  I think we took the money and had beer and pizza after duty one night for the retiring SGT Major. 

One way around keeping a unit fund is to have one member "buy" a few uniform items and then sell them to who ever needs them.  Keep the cash on hand and if questioned mention that it is wholly, "member X's" money, not the units.  It is impractical for units not to have cash on hand.  That is one area I totally disagree with the Virginia Plan!

[ZigZag911]

My problem is that the plan virtually assues that units will maintain closet cash accounts.  "Slush funds" is a harsh word, but "Coffee fund" and "Flower fund" are the same things.  In theory, one can still spend unit funds on unit activities at the discretion of the unit commander.  But try to find a pizza delivery restaurant that will bring pizzas out to the airport on a promise to pay later.  The commander will dip into the coffee fund, collect an extra dollar from each officer, and the party is on. 

Sometimes we put up cash ourselves (or used credit card), got receipt, got reimbursed.

Not everyone is in a position to do that, of course.

Come to think of it, why couldn't units be allowed debit cards?

[mikeylikey]

Come to think of it, why couldn't units be allowed debit cards?

Wow.....good question.  Most Wings allow the Top Officers and Executive Directors the use of Debit Card directly linked to the account. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

The reason the plan does not allow for debit cards is that there is still a 2-signature requirement on disbursement of unit funds.  You would have to re-tool every bank in the country to accept some cards with 2-PIN's.

Or, change the regulation to allow local units to spend small amounts on single signatures.

I think the Wing limit is $500, but I haven't read the regulation for Finance ops at wing and higher in more than a year.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dang!

5 pages already on a thread that's NOT about uniforms!

[capchiro]

Officers and Cadets,
In reflection of the recent cheating scandal at USAFA and this thread, I have to reconsider my position and feel bad about doing so.  We stress integrity in the program.  We understand the Honor Code about lying, cheating, stealing, and tolerance of those who do so.  We (and all Officer training programs discourage quibbling).  We post on this website the need to increase officer training, requiring some type of OTS, and increasing the professionalism in our ranks.  At the same time, we discuss the Banking Solution and the impossibility of running a unit with it.  There has been a consensus that there is a need for a "slush fund" or whatever it may be called, either that or one of the unit leaders or members will extend financing whenever instant money is needed and then apply for reimbursement.  If there is a member doing so, it still boils down to a "slush fund" of sorts.  Anyway you look at it is funding outside of the Banking Solution or asking members to go above and beyond with their offer to finance until reimbursed.  Some of the comments have been along the lines of "don't ask, don't tell", "keep it hidden", or the implication that one would be dumb to answer an IG truthfully or admittedly.  This is all very troublesome with the integrity issue that we struggle to maintain.  I realize that in the real world, one may justify somethings as being necessary, even though not right.  However, can we do that in this program?  We have allowed National to compromise us by putting into place a system that is impossible to sustain on a day to day basis.  To go even higher and perhaps where this attitude began, perhaps we should look at the gay issue of "don't ask, don't tell".  What kind of dilemma does that place one in?  If there is a violation of a rule and one knows about it, but doesn't "tell", does that release him from the honor code obligation?  How can we expect the youth of our country to learn right and wrong and uphold such a code when the powers that be place regulations in operation that cause such quandaries?  How do we talk integrity and then look the other way because it is expeditious to do so?  I submit that we are caught between a rock and a hard place and no amount of drill and ceremonies or OTS will make more professional officers out of us if we are placed in compromising positions by those above us.  I hope to hear some good dialogue from the learned members of this board.  Respectfully,   

[JohnKachenmeister]

Officers and Cadets,
In reflection of the recent cheating scandal at USAFA and this thread, I have to reconsider my position and feel bad about doing so.  We stress integrity in the program.  We understand the Honor Code about lying, cheating, stealing, and tolerance of those who do so.  We (and all Officer training programs discourage quibbling).  We post on this website the need to increase officer training, requiring some type of OTS, and increasing the professionalism in our ranks.  At the same time, we discuss the Banking Solution and the impossibility of running a unit with it.  There has been a consensus that there is a need for a "slush fund" or whatever it may be called, either that or one of the unit leaders or members will extend financing whenever instant money is needed and then apply for reimbursement.  If there is a member doing so, it still boils down to a "slush fund" of sorts.  Anyway you look at it is funding outside of the Banking Solution or asking members to go above and beyond with their offer to finance until reimbursed.  Some of the comments have been along the lines of "don't ask, don't tell", "keep it hidden", or the implication that one would be dumb to answer an IG truthfully or admittedly.  This is all very troublesome with the integrity issue that we struggle to maintain.  I realize that in the real world, one may justify somethings as being necessary, even though not right.  However, can we do that in this program?  We have allowed National to compromise us by putting into place a system that is impossible to sustain on a day to day basis.  To go even higher and perhaps where this attitude began, perhaps we should look at the gay issue of "don't ask, don't tell".  What kind of dilemma does that place one in?  If there is a violation of a rule and one knows about it, but doesn't "tell", does that release him from the honor code obligation?  How can we expect the youth of our country to learn right and wrong and uphold such a code when the powers that be place regulations in operation that cause such quandaries?  How do we talk integrity and then look the other way because it is expeditious to do so?  I submit that we are caught between a rock and a hard place and no amount of drill and ceremonies or OTS will make more professional officers out of us if we are placed in compromising positions by those above us.  I hope to hear some good dialogue from the learned members of this board.  Respectfully,   

You are right, Harry.

That's exactly what I do not like about the program.

We accepted on active duty and in reserve units the necessity of having some small amounts of discretionary cash available to commanders.  The regulations specifically forbid such funds, but we all did it.  Everyone knew we did, and there was an unspoken agreement that nobody would look too close for such funds, and no commander should make them so obvious as to force an IG or a superior commander into having to take action.

When I took command of a company, along with an inventory of our equipment, I asked about the "Unit fund" and the outgoing commander and I audited the money and records that did not, and under the regulations could not, exist.  The "Records" was a cash book bought from a local office supply store, and was kept up just like a checkbook.  I thurned it over to my relief three years later.

But what do you do when a water hose breaks on one of your trucks on a 2-day road movement, and the only auto parts store for miles around does not accept government credit cards?  I dipped into the cash fund, bought the hose, my mechanics put it on, and the convoy was able to continue.

Right now, a CAP unit commander with one other officer on the finance committee can sign a check for outright purchases.  Under the Wing Banker, he can't.  This looks like it will force unit commanders to adopt the active duty solution, which compromises integrity.

I don't like to identify problems without proposing solutions, so my suggestion would be to establish a cap on purchases or cash withdrawals of $50 that can be done with a single signature, and issue each unit an ATM debit card.  You are still going to have accountability, and safeguards in place against theft, but you will make it easier on unit commanders to get the things they need on a day-to-day basis.

[Galahad]

Come to think of it, why couldn't units be allowed debit cards?

Padewan, lost a petty cash fund you have? The means to retrieve it has been cloaked. Look carefully. Contain the legal solution you seek CAPR 173-1 and 173-2 do... 

[ZigZag911]

The reason the plan does not allow for debit cards is that there is still a 2-signature requirement on disbursement of unit funds.  You would have to re-tool every bank in the country to accept some cards with 2-PIN's.

Or, change the regulation to allow local units to spend small amounts on single signatures.

I think the Wing limit is $500, but I haven't read the regulation for Finance ops at wing and higher in more than a year.

This could be resolved with an internal approval voucher requiring dual signatures (say for amounts over $50 or $100), and granting unit commanders disbursement authority up to $50 individually.....should just be a simple regulation change.

[ZigZag911]

  We have allowed National to compromise us by putting into place a system that is impossible to sustain on a day to day basis. 

This statement implies that the NB/NEC answer to the membership.

They do not.

Technically they have some accountability to BOG & SECAF.

Practically speaking, for the most part, our leadership does as it sees fit with little reference to the local level.

They may, in fact, have done the right thing here, for the right reasons.

However, the plain fact is that 'we' have not allowed a blessed thing, it was imposed from above!

[ZigZag911]

Come to think of it, why couldn't units be allowed debit cards?

Padewan, lost a petty cash fund you have? The means to retrieve it has been cloaked. Look carefully. Contain the legal solution you seek CAPR 173-1 and 173-2 do... 

Sorry, I speak Vulcan and a smattering of Klingon, but NO Yodaese!

What's your point?

[DNall]

I agree, the "Qualification" on the audit is, in our opinion, no big deal.  There are locally-raised funds spent by local units on local stuff.  BUT, the fact that the National organization cannot statehow much is out there, nor precisely how much is spent and how, is of critical importance to auditors.

My problem with this whole thing is that those are considered national funds in the first place. I mean if CAP nationally were sued for a billion dollars & had to start coming up with cash, they couldn't take money from those local accounts to meet that obligation, because they are not signers & it's not their property.

The best fix to get an unqual'd audit is seperation. Either charter units as subsidiary corps so their money is not legally national's money, or establish a seperate national foundation with the soul purpose of obtaining & managing funds for the support of CAP. That foundation can then get the clean audit & apply for the grants, which it can then distribute freely within CAP.

On the whole, the previous system was fine if executed, the new system is not going to reduce the amount of money people put into things, just like Vanguard decreased the number of cadets in correct uniform because of supply issues.