VSAF Annoucement

[mikeylikey]

It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me.  This is not about ego's or being better than others.  It comes down to good order and discipline.

How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO?  The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do.  Or is that 'strongly suggesting'?  I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing?  I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.

Everytime I qualified on weapons and there was an NCO, it was always, "Morning Sir, may I see your orders Sir, you weapon is here, my safety briefing will be in 5 minutes".  I am neither working directly for the NCO, nor am I placed in his chain of Command.  

From looking inside out at the military establishment, it may appear that Officers may be working for NCO's in some places, but it is never the case.  Both the Officer and NCO know the relationship between themselves, and the NCO respects that.  In the VSAF program I could be "ordered by the AF" to work for NCO.  That is totally improper as an Officer and NCO are always Officers and NCO's both on duty and off duty.  It would not matter if I wear a pink T-shirt and short shorts, I am still an Officer.  It would inappropriate to ask the NCO to be my boss.  

I may not be explaining well enough, and I apologize for that.  My limited understanding of the VSAF program so far could have something to do with it.

I would think that after a month after the "official" presentation and initiation at Wright-Patt by CAP and the AF, we would have lots more details.  Guess that was wishfull thinking.

I would like to know what other jobs VSAF'ers are doing, what the AF thinks about the program so far and what if any problems are being worked out.

I would have also thought NHQ would be making more of a deal out of VSAF then they really are.  This may be the future "huge" program between CAP and the AF.

[RiverAux]

I would think that after a month after the "official" presentation and initiation at Wright-Patt by CAP and the AF, we would have lots more details.  Guess that was wishfull thinking.

It has barely got started, so why would there be more details this fast?  I would not be surprised if the test period went for 6 months to a year before any final decisions on whether to go national with it are made. 

Patience, grasshopper. 

[mikeylikey]

Correct again River.  I am so anticipatory of any news, I can't help it.   

[jimmydeanno]

...It would not matter if I wear a pink T-shirt and short shorts, I am still an Officer...

...at least until someone caught you 

[ddelaney103]

It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me.  This is not about ego's or being better than others.  It comes down to good order and discipline.

How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO?  The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do.  Or is that 'strongly suggesting'?  I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing?  I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.

What happens on the range stays on the range. Sorry, force of habit.

What's happening on the range is the NCO has been given written orders from the SecAF and CSAF in the form of AFI's.  His duties include ensuring the safe operation of the range by following the regs.  He can tell the officer what to do because he is essentially relaying the orders of the SecAF/CSAF.  Outside of regulations, however, the officer still has authority.

Officers doing volunteer VSAF duty, as long as they are working outside their rating chain, are probably OK if they don't make a big deal about it.

[JayT]

I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.

AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy.  A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.

And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks. 

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."

[Dragoon]

Dragoon I dont know if you are retired or still "in" but I think Mikeys point is that there may be a reg against a currently serving officer serving under an Airman. Regardless of the uniform being worn at the time (CAP vs Army)

At the most basic level it could be argued because Mikey as an officer is "always on duty" and doesnt stop being an officer just because he removes his greens to put on blues. Someone could recognize him and impropriety could result.

Ned Lee Report to the Forum... as a Legal Beagle type could you  please see what you could turn up vis a vis this conundrum?

Mikey: two things... 1) why can't he just call you "  Mr. " both times 

Second: Im not sure how many bases there are in your area but could you either do your VSAF bit on a base you arent going to be associated with?
( AF Guard or Res vs AD) OR could you get into a role supervising the VSAF program? A role where you would oversight the CAP folks and liason with the AF folks?

Still in.   22+ years.  Not aware of a single problem.  As a CAP member I have taken direction from NCOs on several occasions.  That's because they were the guy with the mission, and I was the guy that agreed to help out, not visa versa.   If we get to BSing, I might let slip about my day job, but otherwise it doesn't need to come up.

As an officer, I may have the option of giving orders to an airmen - but there's no problem with me following that airman's lead either.  Unless of course, I see him doing something against UCMJ. If so, I'd have to whip out the old ID card and tell him to knock it off.  That's the inherent responsibility that I can't ever turn off.

As a retired guy (which I hope to be within the next 5 years or so), it's even less of an issue.  I'll know my status - it doesn't really matter if anyone else does.

I've seen similar things happen in lots of volunteer groups near post where the group leader is a military subordinate to some of the group members.  Not a big deal.  We all know who's in charge when we go back to our day jobs.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.

AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy.  A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.

And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks. 

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."

You dismiss tradition as if it is unimportant.  Tradition is important to real military guys.  About half of what the military does and says is a result of tradition.

The Old Guard in Washington DC?  They are called the "Old Guard" because of a comment made by General Winfield Scott in the Mexican War.  A comment made by a German officer about the American Marines at Bellaux Wood earned them the nickname "Devil Dogs" forever.

The uniform of cadets at USMA?  Designed by Winfield Scott for his troops at the Battle of Chippewa.  Adopted by USMA to honor the commitment to training that resulted in a British defeat.

Our rank insignia differs from the British because it was designed by General von Steuben, and was based on formations of the Roman Army.  The ancient Roman Army's influence was such that Anthony Wayne's force to oust the British from the Northwest Territories was called "The Legion of the United States."

The tradition of officers eating last, after all of the troops have been fed, began with George Washington at Valley Forge.  British officers dined in style regardless of the rations available to their troops.  Washington changed that, and in the 232 years since then, nobody has seen a need to change it back.

Rather than the rhetorical question you posed, the question should be:  "Why is it necessary to reverse 67 years of the tradition of CAP officers wearing the uniform of the US Air Force, including the courtesy rank that has been earned through service as a volunteer?"

[Dragoon]

While tradition has value, it needs to be measured against current needs.  Otherwise we'd still carry sabres and ride horses.  And keep slaves.  And other stuff that deserves to be changed.

The question is a valid one - what value does CAP grade bring to VSAF operations?  Does it help us do the job better?  Does the lack of it impede the mission?

Only with a full list of pros and cons can a rational decision be made.  "The way we've always done things".....may be the wrong way.

[JayT]

I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.

AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy.  A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.

And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks. 

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."

You dismiss tradition as if it is unimportant.  Tradition is important to real military guys.  About half of what the military does and says is a result of tradition.

The Old Guard in Washington DC?  They are called the "Old Guard" because of a comment made by General Winfield Scott in the Mexican War.  A comment made by a German officer about the American Marines at Bellaux Wood earned them the nickname "Devil Dogs" forever.

The uniform of cadets at USMA?  Designed by Winfield Scott for his troops at the Battle of Chippewa.  Adopted by USMA to honor the commitment to training that resulted in a British defeat.

Our rank insignia differs from the British because it was designed by General von Steuben, and was based on formations of the Roman Army.  The ancient Roman Army's influence was such that Anthony Wayne's force to oust the British from the Northwest Territories was called "The Legion of the United States."

The tradition of officers eating last, after all of the troops have been fed, began with George Washington at Valley Forge.  British officers dined in style regardless of the rations available to their troops.  Washington changed that, and in the 232 years since then, nobody has seen a need to change it back.

Rather than the rhetorical question you posed, the question should be:  "Why is it necessary to reverse 67 years of the tradition of CAP officers wearing the uniform of the US Air Force, including the courtesy rank that has been earned through service as a volunteer?"

Believe me, I'm as much a stickler for tradition as the next guy.

But if the USAF and CAP NHQ got together and decided that we shouldn't wear military/corporate style uniforms for this program, then isn't the ten thousand plus year tradition of soldiers taking orders and carrying them our more important?

You keep refering to CAP grade as 'courtesy rank.' If I recall correctly, you earned your oak leaves through military service, correct? I completely understand that you are attached to them.

But when serving as a CAP member, and CAP member is just that: A CAP member. Thus, he's wearing his rank within the organization. So I don't really see how you can be so attached to your CAP rank, since it's a courtrsy, if the Powers That Be decide that you could work more effectively through VSAF by not being in a military style uniform.

Now, you're unque in that you are already partcipating in an augmenting mission, with the museum tours, in the green bag with rank insignia. While local commanders may not have a problem with that, if the Air Force PTB decide to change that, doesn't the local commander have to listern?

I do believe that augmenting the regular Air Force does have useful applications for both CAP and the USAF. However, in my experience with another cadet squadron augmenting the local ANG Wing, what happens sometimes is that the local CAP squadron takes over, and doesn't let any other CAP types play with the ANG guys. Thus, while the local USAF commander and the local CAP commander might have a good relationship, that relationship doesn't extent to far beyond that.

So, I do believe that augmenting must be a USAF/CAP wide activity, with national directives from both chains of command. And if that unified chain of command says that volunteers for the program must wear XYZ, then we can either not volunteer, or wear XYZ.

With that being said, I think the best choice for CAP members would be the local UOD with some sort of CAP device. However, if I recall from the orginal annoucement, VSAF wasn't intended solely for CAP members. It's also intended for non CAP members to join CAP to work with the Air Force. So, sticking them in a CAP uniform might not be the best choice.

[JohnKachenmeister]

While tradition has value, it needs to be measured against current needs.  Otherwise we'd still carry sabres and ride horses.  And keep slaves.  And other stuff that deserves to be changed.

The question is a valid one - what value does CAP grade bring to VSAF operations?  Does it help us do the job better?  Does the lack of it impede the mission?

Only with a full list of pros and cons can a rational decision be made.  "The way we've always done things".....may be the wrong way.

You say the question (posed by Themann) is valid, yet you pose the same question I did in a different way.

You ask if the value of tradition is outweighed by current needs.  That is exactly what I suggested that the proper question should be.

Why is it necessary to scrap tradition for this program?  What "Current need" is served by scrapping more than 6 decades of tradition?

If your "Current need" is to avoid confusing airmen, I think you are woefully underestimating airmen.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.

AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy.  A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.

And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks. 

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."

You dismiss tradition as if it is unimportant.  Tradition is important to real military guys.  About half of what the military does and says is a result of tradition.

The Old Guard in Washington DC?  They are called the "Old Guard" because of a comment made by General Winfield Scott in the Mexican War.  A comment made by a German officer about the American Marines at Bellaux Wood earned them the nickname "Devil Dogs" forever.

The uniform of cadets at USMA?  Designed by Winfield Scott for his troops at the Battle of Chippewa.  Adopted by USMA to honor the commitment to training that resulted in a British defeat.

Our rank insignia differs from the British because it was designed by General von Steuben, and was based on formations of the Roman Army.  The ancient Roman Army's influence was such that Anthony Wayne's force to oust the British from the Northwest Territories was called "The Legion of the United States."

The tradition of officers eating last, after all of the troops have been fed, began with George Washington at Valley Forge.  British officers dined in style regardless of the rations available to their troops.  Washington changed that, and in the 232 years since then, nobody has seen a need to change it back.

Rather than the rhetorical question you posed, the question should be:  "Why is it necessary to reverse 67 years of the tradition of CAP officers wearing the uniform of the US Air Force, including the courtesy rank that has been earned through service as a volunteer?"

Believe me, I'm as much a stickler for tradition as the next guy.

But if the USAF and CAP NHQ got together and decided that we shouldn't wear military/corporate style uniforms for this program, then isn't the ten thousand plus year tradition of soldiers taking orders and carrying them our more important?

You keep refering to CAP grade as 'courtesy rank.' If I recall correctly, you earned your oak leaves through military service, correct? I completely understand that you are attached to them.

But when serving as a CAP member, and CAP member is just that: A CAP member. Thus, he's wearing his rank within the organization. So I don't really see how you can be so attached to your CAP rank, since it's a courtrsy, if the Powers That Be decide that you could work more effectively through VSAF by not being in a military style uniform.

Now, you're unque in that you are already partcipating in an augmenting mission, with the museum tours, in the green bag with rank insignia. While local commanders may not have a problem with that, if the Air Force PTB decide to change that, doesn't the local commander have to listern?

I do believe that augmenting the regular Air Force does have useful applications for both CAP and the USAF. However, in my experience with another cadet squadron augmenting the local ANG Wing, what happens sometimes is that the local CAP squadron takes over, and doesn't let any other CAP types play with the ANG guys. Thus, while the local USAF commander and the local CAP commander might have a good relationship, that relationship doesn't extent to far beyond that.

So, I do believe that augmenting must be a USAF/CAP wide activity, with national directives from both chains of command. And if that unified chain of command says that volunteers for the program must wear XYZ, then we can either not volunteer, or wear XYZ.

With that being said, I think the best choice for CAP members would be the local UOD with some sort of CAP device. However, if I recall from the orginal annoucement, VSAF wasn't intended solely for CAP members. It's also intended for non CAP members to join CAP to work with the Air Force. So, sticking them in a CAP uniform might not be the best choice.

Lets separate two issues.  As I said, the fact that I earned my rank the hard way is a personal issue, and the fact that CAP would require me to dress in a ridiculous-looking retail sales associate uniform rather than the uniform of my country is sufficient for me to take a pass on this mission.  That, however, is a personal issue.  Your mileage may vary.

The other point I was making, is that I think the decision to scrap the traditional uniform is wrong-headed for several reasons, not the least of which is that we have, for six decades, served the United States in the uniform of the Air Force.  So, why, when providing direct support to the Air Force, do we scrap the tradition?

You challenged me to cite a reason making it necessary to wear the traditional uniform on VSAF missions.  I told you that the long tradition alone was enough reason, unless there was an over-riding reason to find a different way.  The very remote possibility of some clueless airman somewhere becoming confused does not seem to me to be an over-riding reason.

The other reasons that I did not address are:  Cost to the member for yet another uniform, and the generally-silly look to the uniform selected.  Also, the availability of the Golf Shirt combo, which achieves the same casual and rank-less look, completes the lack of justification for this new abortion of a uniform.

[mikeylikey]

The question I forgot to pose to the poster who is currently participating in VSAF is......

Were you issued the polo and pants, or did you purchase both, or separately?  Also, if you wear BDU's without rank insignia, are they providing you the BDU?  Also, BDU's are no longer an Air Force issued clothing bag item.  Are they going to issue ABU's then?

I have so many questions, that can and should be issued by weekly press releases from NHQ.  They are taking the month off I suppose!

[SAR-EMT1]

Anyone posed these questions to the K-Base yet?

[Timothy]

Mikeylikey,

Back on page 4, GPVIIOps stated that they offered to give him an extra BDU top, which he turned down. I'd imagine he would also need an extra BDU cap as well. 

All,

I think it has already been proven that the casual VSAF uniform will not be fit for use as an all-purpose uniform and other uniform types will (or already have) been authorized. When the next official document for this program comes out in 6-12 months I'm sure that standard CAP uniforms (possibly still without rank) will be listed and members will be wearing the local UOD, or a VSAF UOD as proscribed by their local USAF commander.

On the rank issue, I think this is a sticking point for a lot of people because the AF will be contradicting itself, and on somewhat slim grounds. By following orders and removing rank from the coat and cap, GPVIIOps will be flagrantly violating CAP and USAF-mandated uniform regulations. Wear of rank is not optional, just like wear of name-tapes is not optional. Not to mention that this rank logic already flies in the face of the Chaplain program, who work with active duty units and wear their CAP rank. (yes, I know they have different, nifty aux name tapes, but they have no more or less experience, training, or authority than we do.) I know NHQ/AF can just change the Reg to allow it, but that wouldnt be based on any hard studies or reports.

The best way I can put the rank argument in context is to use the gun control arguments as an example... pro-gunners ask "Why should I give my gun up?", and anti-gunners ask "Why do you need your gun?"

But in this case the "pro-gunners" have a firm 2nd amendment as the rank structure has been in place and approved by the AF ( I wont regurgitate the history lessons posted earlier in this thread). Which is why I would raise my hand and ask "Sir, why only now, in 2008 are we creating an issue regarding a part of our organization that has basically not been touched by the AF in a serious way since 1942?" If its a reg, and it seriously affects a core part of our orginization and heraldrical tradition, we need to make it as hard as possible for someone to come along and change it on a whim, or nothing will be sacred.

BUT, I still have a feeling that at the end of the test period (whenever that is) members will be wearing complete uniforms in accordance with CAP/USAF regs, which includes current rank. They just need to get the warm fuzzy from the test period.

[mikeylikey]

^ If a CAP member wear to wear say, Service Dress shirt and pants with no rank, they would be indistinguishable from say an Airman (E-1) with no rank insignia.  The only difference is the CAP persons namebadge would say Civil Air Patrol.  Now I know we don't want that to happen.....

And what is this about Chaplains wearing AUX what??

[Dragoon]

While tradition has value, it needs to be measured against current needs.  Otherwise we'd still carry sabres and ride horses.  And keep slaves.  And other stuff that deserves to be changed.

The question is a valid one - what value does CAP grade bring to VSAF operations?  Does it help us do the job better?  Does the lack of it impede the mission?

Only with a full list of pros and cons can a rational decision be made.  "The way we've always done things".....may be the wrong way.

You say the question (posed by Themann) is valid, yet you pose the same question I did in a different way.

You ask if the value of tradition is outweighed by current needs.  That is exactly what I suggested that the proper question should be.

Why is it necessary to scrap tradition for this program?  What "Current need" is served by scrapping more than 6 decades of tradition?

If your "Current need" is to avoid confusing airmen, I think you are woefully underestimating airmen.

Just the word "tradition" isn't a very coherent argument - it needs expanding.  After all,  the unranked golf shirt is a CAP tradition as well.   As is the blazer.   (Not as old a tradition, but a tradition nonetheless.  Removing grade where it serves no purpose isn't as new as some would like to make it.

Traditionally, we have not worked side by side with USAF in their spaces.  We have worked seperately, - doing missions FOR USAF but not really WITH USAF.  Sure, there's been the odd exception here and there, but VSAF is fundamentally different.  It brings CAP personnel into USAF staff positions for long term assignements. And our rank does not translate into that world.  A CAP major may be best utilized doing SSgt work, and a CAP 2d Lt might be best utilized doing Lt Col work.  It's not our CAP training that matters most to them - it's our real world, outside CAP skills that are going to be brought to bear. And our rank simply doesn't equate with that.


And here's the big thing - "tradition" words both ways.  Within the military, there is a traditional view of what officer grade means.  Every single serviceman is indoctrinated with that tradition.  And here comes CAP, completely smashing that traditional view.

We have to respect their traditions as well, if we're going to work well alongside them.

New game, new rules.   The only reason I can see to allow grade would be if we couldn't get members to participate otherwise.  (i.e., consider it "payment" for their volunteer efforts.)  But this isn't supposed to be about US - it's supposed to be about the mission.

[JayT]

^ If a CAP member wear to wear say, Service Dress shirt and pants with no rank, they would be indistinguishable from say an Airman (E-1) with no rank insignia.  The only difference is the CAP persons namebadge would say Civil Air Patrol.  Now I know we don't want that to happen.....

And what is this about Chaplains wearing AUX what??

Yeah, but stick a 'Civil Air Patrol' or 'USAF Aux' shoulder mark on their epaulettes...

[Eagle400]

Lets separate two issues.  As I said, the fact that I earned my rank the hard way is a personal issue, and the fact that CAP would require me to dress in a ridiculous-looking retail sales associate uniform rather than the uniform of my country is sufficient for me to take a pass on this mission.  That, however, is a personal issue.  Your mileage may vary.

I understand your frustration, sir. 

Doesn't it say in 39-1 that CAP members who are conducting official business on a military installation will wear the uniform prescribed by the base commander (or its distinctive equivalent)?   VSAF constitutes official business.

I have not seen any ICL's or memos authorizing this new VSAF uniform, just an article on cap.gov about the program and its new uniform.  It seems to me like this new tradition of wearing the VSAF uniform would contradict the policy of wearing the uniform prescribed by the base commander while conducting official business.     

The other point I was making, is that I think the decision to scrap the traditional uniform is wrong-headed for several reasons, not the least of which is that we have, for six decades, served the United States in the uniform of the Air Force.  So, why, when providing direct support to the Air Force, do we scrap the tradition?

I wish I had the answer.  Has any reason been given as to why the USAF/CAP distinctive uniforms are not to be worn for VSAF activities?

The very remote possibility of some clueless airman somewhere becoming confused does not seem to me to be an over-riding reason.

I agree, but perhaps it has more to do with the Air Force's reluctance to allow CAP personnel to look like AF personnel. 

If they won't let CAP officers wear blue epaulets and nametags, chances are they won't let them wear military or CAP distinctive uniforms for VSAF, either. 

I don't know that this new VSAF uniform is the result of some mandate from the Air Force... this could all be CAP's doing... but I would think that the CAP leadership would be more than happy to allow CAP personnel to wear AF/CAP uniforms while augmenting for VSAF.

If my guess is right and the Air Force wants to ensure that CAP personnel who take part in VSAF aren't confused with AF personnel, they could easily mandate that only CAP distinctive uniforms be worn.  That way, there is a uniform available for every assignment in VSAF and no one is left out.       

The other reasons that I did not address are:  Cost to the member for yet another uniform, and the generally-silly look to the uniform selected.  Also, the availability of the Golf Shirt combo, which achieves the same casual and rank-less look, completes the lack of justification for this new abortion of a uniform.

I agree.  The only reason I can think of as to why this new uniform was created is that the Air Force said "no" to all the AF and CAP distinctive uniforms already in CAP's inventory, and wanted an even more distinctive look. 

[mikeylikey]

The only other reason I can think of the new uniform was for those persons recruited into CAP specifically for VSAF.  I think they are hoping to get 1,000's of new members who don't report to a Squadron, but work directly for the VSAF program.  Then that way they need not buy uniforms they won't use, and it will make that person feel happier.  We need to step back and look at bigger pictures, and the true reasons usually are hidden, but can be discovered.

I suggest the next person here who runs into Courter, ask her some of these questions!  If we do keep the VSAF uniform, then we should begin a 1 year phase out of the current polo and grey slacks!