VSAF Annoucement

[JayT]

Well, yes.  You probably are off base, if I could understand the point you are trying to make.

To the extent that I THINK I understand your point, I offer the following in rebuttal:

1.  CAP is a military auxiliary.  To try to distort it into a parody of a corporation diminishes the heritage of our organization, distances us farther from the parent organization, and does a dis-service to those who served in combat as members of our organization.

2.  Those who endeavor to create this corporate mindset only do so because they lack any connection to the military.  They have never served on active duty, their "Officer training" comes from Hollywood, and they do not understand the bonds of comradery that are shared among military people.  Therefore, they try to re-create the organization in the image of that which they understand.  Rather than seek training and experience to bring their military skills and attitudes into line with the parent organization, they seek to divorce us (or at least legally separate us) from the Air Force, and create a silly uniformed corporation.  The consequences of this attitude are far-reaching and they are not good.

3.  A uniform that looks like a retail sales associate is not a "Perfectly acceptable uniform."

Couple of points.

Do you really believe our Corporate Overlords have more power then the US Air Force in the organization and status of CAP? If the AF decided tomorrow to restore our full time Aux status, do you think that NHQ could stop them?

This leads me to believe that the USAF is happy with our current set up.

This leads to another question.
Do you want us to be closer to the AF because it's the best for the Air Force, or because it's the best for some fraction of CAP members?

If the AF wanted us to have full time status, I'd think we'd have it. If the Air Force wanted us to have a more military program, I'd think we'd have it.

The fact is, if we established a more 'military' adult program, we would loss pilots and other ES types.

So what's more useful to the Nation, State, and Community? CAP members who look and talk more like Air Force guys and can give killer tours? Or pilots for our planes and crewmen for our Ground Teams?

There's no reason why we can't improve the program the way we are now. More professional training, more commanders willing to enforce current regulations.

Uniforms, rank, the difference between "USAFAux" and "CAP," they all really have nothing to do with any problems we may have.

[mikeylikey]

^ Seriously, if we were to lose pilots because we became more "Air Forcy", I hate to say it but those are the types we don't want in CAP.  And frankly speaking any loss could most likely be made up within a three year time period.  Perhaps now is the time to get rid of everyone who wants the no military aspect of CAP. 

The military model works, and it works well.  That is why so many headhunters will specifically find prior-service Officers and Senior NCO's to recruit directly into upper management. 

Finally, JTHemann...... the CAP Corporates were able a few years back to gain more power from the AF.  They were the ones who lobbied for the National Commander to be a CAP Officer, they are also the ones who pushed for AUX only on missions.  Make no mistake, the AF let CAP slip from it's hands, but it was really the Corporate Bigwigs who pushed.

I do understand CAP is a Corporation first.  I just wish it were not.

[Smokey]

What is it about the military aspect and the Air Force that some folks do not like??

What is it, for some , to want to distance CAP from the military?? I am really at a loss considering our roots that go back to the AAF and defending the nation.

I'd love to hear from those of you who are anti AF, anti-military and your reasons for wanting to be more corporate or want a complete divorce from the AF.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, yes.  You probably are off base, if I could understand the point you are trying to make.

To the extent that I THINK I understand your point, I offer the following in rebuttal:

1.  CAP is a military auxiliary.  To try to distort it into a parody of a corporation diminishes the heritage of our organization, distances us farther from the parent organization, and does a dis-service to those who served in combat as members of our organization.

2.  Those who endeavor to create this corporate mindset only do so because they lack any connection to the military.  They have never served on active duty, their "Officer training" comes from Hollywood, and they do not understand the bonds of comradery that are shared among military people.  Therefore, they try to re-create the organization in the image of that which they understand.  Rather than seek training and experience to bring their military skills and attitudes into line with the parent organization, they seek to divorce us (or at least legally separate us) from the Air Force, and create a silly uniformed corporation.  The consequences of this attitude are far-reaching and they are not good.

3.  A uniform that looks like a retail sales associate is not a "Perfectly acceptable uniform."

Couple of points.

Do you really believe our Corporate Overlords have more power then the US Air Force in the organization and status of CAP? If the AF decided tomorrow to restore our full time Aux status, do you think that NHQ could stop them?

This leads me to believe that the USAF is happy with our current set up.

This leads to another question.
Do you want us to be closer to the AF because it's the best for the Air Force, or because it's the best for some fraction of CAP members?

If the AF wanted us to have full time status, I'd think we'd have it. If the Air Force wanted us to have a more military program, I'd think we'd have it.

The fact is, if we established a more 'military' adult program, we would loss pilots and other ES types.

So what's more useful to the Nation, State, and Community? CAP members who look and talk more like Air Force guys and can give killer tours? Or pilots for our planes and crewmen for our Ground Teams?

There's no reason why we can't improve the program the way we are now. More professional training, more commanders willing to enforce current regulations.

Uniforms, rank, the difference between "USAFAux" and "CAP," they all really have nothing to do with any problems we may have.

I suggest you PM DNall on this.  He can fill you in on the "End run" that the NHQ corporate types did back in the 1990's.

[SAR-EMT1]

OK... first I did not mean to get embroiled in an AuxOn AuxOff war.

Um couple of questions:
- first: is it established fact that VSAF types will not have supervisory duties over anybody - civilian/officer/enlisted - OR is this an assumption?
- Doesnt matter to me, Im just curious.

- Second: Kach Im curious as to what exactly your tour uniform does look like - Im guessing an AD Flightsuit with your last name. ??

Third- whether or not we wear the uniform from USAF, NHQ or MACYS does anyone have any idea as to the trial period for VSAF? AE - when it might expand to other bases and CAP Wings?

Third and a half: any idea as far as what other sorts of jobs we might do?

Forth: what office would we actually be working for? Is VSAF something done through the base contracting office? Through a CAPRAP or SD type? -- I understand that Group /CCs have oversight as to the pipeline, my question is: "who decides who works where"
-- for example: I could definately function in a USAF clinic or USAF FireDept
(but i know thats a long shot).  I could maybe function in PA but Major X wants that job so am I going to be assigned to Job Z instead ... ?

Fifth:
What is the procedure that you go through from the time you vollunteer to the time you are assigned to a job? (and are you actually assigned to a 'job' or to a 'unit' ? )

[RiverAux]

Read back to group's comments.  That is the only "hard" data we have on how VSAF is working in practice.  Remember, it is a test program and the way they are doing things may or may not be how it is handled when the program goes prime time, if it does. 

[Dragoon]

Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done.  They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.

How is that a JAG nightmare?  Also, Civilians lead and direct Officers all the time.  We do have a civilian workforce in the military.  Some of those people are even Senior Raters for General Officers.

I just don't think anyone would be so confused by a CAP Officer that they could not follow his or her directions.  However if they are easily confused in the AF, boy am I glad I joined the Army, cause my life my depend on someone that is not so confused.

The JAG nightmare is that we are not, by regulation USAF officers, nor, by regulation USAF civilians.  Neither fish nor fowl.

Personally, I think clarifying our status as USAF civilians when on duty would be very helpful.  It would ALLOW us to supervise (or be supervised by) USAF military when directed by USAF leadership IAW USAF regs.  It would make it clear that UCMJ do not apply to us, but that USAF regs do.  And it would eliminate the whole "I'm an officer!" "No you're not!" issue.  We could wear some USAF uniforms (just like deployed USAF civilians do, regardless of weight or grooming).

We'd fit a heck of a lot better into the USAF pecking order - it would be obvious that we were neither subordinate to, nor superior to, USAF officers.  It would all be based on position - just like authority in CAP is anyway.

I understand that CAP officers are proud of their grade, and that they earned it.  But to the average USAF guy, frankly, our standards are so low as to be meaningless.  To them, we didn't really earn those oak leaves.  It may hurt emotionally, but it's a valid point of view.

As long as we work seperately, this never comes up.  They never see us and we never see them.  But when we work together.....it becomes obvious that we don't mean the same thing by "officer" as they do.

And on base it's their basement - their rules.


(Please note that if this ever came to pass, I'd have to remove the oak leaves Congress gave me.  But that's cool - in CAP I'm not really acting in that capacity.  I don't need 'em.)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Actually, Air Force Instructions do give a great deal of clarity with regard to the role of CAP personnel in Air Force operations.  It is not necessary to classify us as civil servants in order to not confuse the JAG folks.

Included in the AFI's is a statement to the effect that CAP rank is awarded as a courtesy, and that CAP officers have no command authority over AF personnel as a result of that rank.  It also specifies that we are not subject to the UCMJ.

There is, however, no restriction against locally-initiated "Referred Authority," and if that were the case, then CAP personnel could supervise USAF personnel regardless of rank.

Example:

"I am Lt. Col. Jones, USAF.  I am the commander of the 449th Underground Balloon Squadron.  We need a new basket to be woven out of bamboo reeds.  You three Airmen are designated to accomplish this weaving.  CAP Captain Smith, who is augmenting our squadron, will be in charge and will report completion to me.  Have a nice day."

[mikeylikey]

..... I am the commander of the 449th Underground Balloon Squadron. 

I heard about those Underground Balloon Squadrons.  I think you have to take underwater basket weaving to be assigned to them   

Seriously, there is no "JAG nightmare" and as Kach already pointed out, we already have the written guidelines on how we and the AF will act and get along.

However, Airman Snuffy fresh from basic (and who was a CAP cadet previously to joining USAF), knows what CAP is all about, and knows that CAP is not the military may decide he will not work together with anyone involved with VSAF, because he is NOW the military guy.  That is something that may come up before we ever get into Who reports to whom.

We are all blowing this out of proportion, myself included.  VASF should be a program that supports Reserve and Guard bases first, AD bases second.  That is my only huge issue with this roll-out.  We can do much more for the personnel on a Reserve base (and our local community) than we can for an AFB that already has functions set-up to support units who lost men and women due to deployments.  Face it, this war we have now is being waged primarily by Reserve and Guard forces and AD forces second.  No time in our history has the Reserves been deployed more than their Active Duty Counterparts.  But I way digress here.

[JohnKachenmeister]

If Airman Snuffy cannot accept the leadership offered by a CAP officer, his problem is with the USAF officer who directed him to do so.

The VSAF program could work just fine if NHQ would step out and not micromanage what should be a CAP-Base Commander interface.

[Dragoon]

Seriously, there is no "JAG nightmare" and as Kach already pointed out, we already have the written guidelines on how we and the AF will act and get along.

Actually those guidelines merely discuss how we DON'T get along.  There are no guidelines in place on how our members SHOULD interact.  It would be nice to have some.  More clarification on how we would fall under USAF regs when working right alongside them.

But back to the grade issue - at the very least it's confusing.

All it takes is one Airman caught doing something wrong that he believes he was ordered to do by a CAP officer, or by following the example of a CAP officer who isn't subject to UCMJ in the first place.    And yeah, that will happen.  Saying "You should have known that CAP Captain has no authority, Airman - go directly to jail" ain't gonna cut it. 

Our functions in VSAF are not going to mirror the USAF grade equivalents -they will be based on talent and need.  They aren't going to give a guy a Lt Col job because he's a CAP Lt Col.   They MAY give a Lt Col job to a guy whose real life experience and talents suit him for it, even if he's a CAP Tech Sergeant.  And they MAY give a guy an Airmen First Class job in spite of his CAP Lt Col grade - because that's where his talents fit in.

So now you've got a Tech Sergeant in a room full of field grades and a CAP Lt Col being supervised by a Sergeant.  Weird.  In the military, as many here know, rank means something.  They don't take kindly to folks taking it lightly.  And from a USAF viewpoint, we do exactly that.

Yeah, we could just educate all USAF personnel on the base that "hey, feel free to ignore these CAP guys - they're not real officers."  But isn't it easier to just  acknowledge  that our grade means nothing to USAF operations, and  therefore doesn't need to be present when working with USAF?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.

AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy.  A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.

And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks. 

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

[mikeylikey]

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

Man Major, I just can not find anything to contest in your posts. 

Something no one has brought up yet, what about those Real Military Officers, that are also CAP members that would love to volunteer once a week at the base?  I thought about this for a while, and have decided that if the program ever did make it my way, I would have to decline.  As an Officer, I could not be seen taking any type of guidance or orders from an Airman, or even for that matter another Officer junior to my rank when I have whatever CAP uniform on.  I am not saying anything about enlisted people here, I am just bringing up the point that it would "Not appear correct". 

I also believe there is some stipulation in the military codes that say you have to have your immediate supervisors (an Officer) permission to work a second job on the side.  Working VSAF (although voluntary, non-paid) is still the same as a second job.  I am forwarning those in the military, this may be the area that JAG needs to check out. 

Note:  I would love to do VSAF today.  I would absolutely be the first person at the Family Readiness group handing out papers, or helping spouses with deployment problems (I think my knowledge on deployments and being in the military to begin with) would make me a perfect fit.  We shall see. 

[RiverAux]

mikey, how is volunteering in the VSAF program any different than volunteering in CAP in general?  VSAF is CAP duty.  If you promise to show up at a CAP SAREX that isn't any different than promising to show up at some VSAF duty. 

[Dragoon]

I do not see it as a problem.  It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform. 

Man Major, I just can not find anything to contest in your posts. 

Something no one has brought up yet, what about those Real Military Officers, that are also CAP members that would love to volunteer once a week at the base?  I thought about this for a while, and have decided that if the program ever did make it my way, I would have to decline.  As an Officer, I could not be seen taking any type of guidance or orders from an Airman, or even for that matter another Officer junior to my rank when I have whatever CAP uniform on.  I am not saying anything about enlisted people here, I am just bringing up the point that it would "Not appear correct". 

I also believe there is some stipulation in the military codes that say you have to have your immediate supervisors (an Officer) permission to work a second job on the side.  Working VSAF (although voluntary, non-paid) is still the same as a second job.  I am forwarning those in the military, this may be the area that JAG needs to check out. 

Note:  I would love to do VSAF today.  I would absolutely be the first person at the Family Readiness group handing out papers, or helping spouses with deployment problems (I think my knowledge on deployments and being in the military to begin with) would make me a perfect fit.  We shall see. 

Different opinion here (as you may have guessed).  I've got no problem leaving my Real Military officer rank at the door and taking direction from an airman.  It's about the getting the job done, not stroking my sense of self-worth.   

If I'm gonna help, I'll help the way they NEED the help - not in the way that makes me feel good. 

And while I ain't thrilled about having a special VSAF uniform, the golf shirt would have worked just fine.

[mikeylikey]

mikey, how is volunteering in the VSAF program any different than volunteering in CAP in general?  VSAF is CAP duty.  If you promise to show up at a CAP SAREX that isn't any different than promising to show up at some VSAF duty. 

VSAF can be considered a second job, as you are working for the AF.  CAP is considered a hobby, as you are working for a non-profit and there are no military Officers in military uniform directing your actions (for the most part, everyone in CAP, even if in the military is still "in CAP" when volunteering for CAP).

I don't wear my Army Uniform when doing CAP missions, and those that are leading the organization are in CAP uniform.  With VSAF, I may be wearing a CAP uniform, but am working with people that I may one day have to say "do this, do that, its an order". 

It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me.  This is not about ego's or being better than others.  It comes down to good order and discipline.

I am no way saying I am better than anyone, just that it could cause issues down the road.  I don't want to put that Ariman in a difficult situation.  He would know I am an Officer in my "day job" but does he call me Mike or Sir when working together on VSAF matters?  Does he second guess his actions when I am around?  Are there going to be any type of evaluations of the work I am doing, is it propper for him or her to write evaluations of Officers?  Again, not about me, but about the Ariman. 

Like I said before, I would love to volunteer when this goes AF wide (to include Guard and reserves).  However for my part, the options may be more limited than for an ordinary CAP member who is also not an Officer. 

A charge of Fraternization can come on duty or off duty, through my own fault, or through the fault of others, but ultimately I am to blame because I was the Senior, and should know better.  I take that very seriously, as I have watched charges brought against an Officer for playing competitive sports off duty and grabbing a beer with the team.  Long story short, others believed the Officer was promoting his team-mates ahead of others more qualified.

I may be blowing this WAY out of proportion, but just wanted to bring it up as it has yet to be discussed.  I will gladly accept that nothing even close to what I have written will ever happen, just wanted to get it out there.   

[SAR-EMT1]

Dragoon I dont know if you are retired or still "in" but I think Mikeys point is that there may be a reg against a currently serving officer serving under an Airman. Regardless of the uniform being worn at the time (CAP vs Army)

At the most basic level it could be argued because Mikey as an officer is "always on duty" and doesnt stop being an officer just because he removes his greens to put on blues. Someone could recognize him and impropriety could result.

Ned Lee Report to the Forum... as a Legal Beagle type could you  please see what you could turn up vis a vis this conundrum?

Mikey: two things... 1) why can't he just call you "  Mr. " both times 

Second: Im not sure how many bases there are in your area but could you either do your VSAF bit on a base you arent going to be associated with?
( AF Guard or Res vs AD) OR could you get into a role supervising the VSAF program? A role where you would oversight the CAP folks and liason with the AF folks?

[jimmydeanno]

It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me.  This is not about ego's or being better than others.  It comes down to good order and discipline.

How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO?  The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do.  Or is that 'strongly suggesting'?  I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing?  I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.

[RiverAux]

VSAF can be considered a second job, as you are working for the AF.  CAP is considered a hobby, as you are working for a non-profit and there are no military Officers in military uniform directing your actions (for the most part, everyone in CAP, even if in the military is still "in CAP" when volunteering for CAP).

Actually, you are still a volunteer no matter what you're doing in CAP.  When we're on an AFAM we're just as much "working for" the AF as a member would be in the VSAF program. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me.  This is not about ego's or being better than others.  It comes down to good order and discipline.

How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO?  The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do.  Or is that 'strongly suggesting'?  I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing?  I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.

It works the same as the example I gave about the CAP guy working to augment the Underground Balloon Squadron.  The NCO gets his authority to direct range operations from the Commander.  An "Order" from the NCO is an "Order" from the Commander.  Just out of a different mouth.