Now this is surely interesting
Quote
Civil Air Patrol buoys AF home front concerns with new support program
Volunteer Support of the Air Force program will match CAP members' capabilities with opportunities to serve military families
January 10, 2008
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS -- On Jan. 11, 1949, the secretary of the Air Force described the Civil Air Patrol as a "civilian auxiliary of the Air Force."
Today, 59 years later, Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs, the Honorable Craig Duehring announced a new pilot project which will kick off at two bases this month. Randolph Air Force Base and Wright-Patterson AFB were selected as the two sites for evaluating the potential of an additional Air Force non-combat mission for CAP using existing statutory and Secretarial authorities.
"This program called Volunteer Support to the Air Force, or VSAF will provide greater volunteer opportunities for citizens through the CAP while enhancing the Air Force capabilities as a part of the Air Force's Continuum of Service program," Mr. Duehring said.
"The members of the Civil Air Patrol, all patriotic American citizens, are proud to have this opportunity to help the brave men and women defending our country and the loved ones they leave behind when they deploy, but before now, a structure did not exist to match volunteer capabilities with base needs," said Interim CAP Commander Brig. Gen. Amy Courter. "Our 57,000 volunteers welcome this opportunity to support the military families in their communities across the nation."
Continuum of Service (CoS) is a Department of Defense initiative that seeks to provide opportunities for service along a continuum from military active duty to civilian volunteer. The CoS recognizes that people are the key ingredient to the sustained success of our Air Force and focuses on eliminating the barriers that allows our highly trained, motivated people to continue to serve as their personal situations change over the course of their career.
This endeavor builds on the willingness and capabilities of our citizen volunteers. In the pilot project announced today, the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol continue their historic partnership to involve America's citizens in Air Power's ongoing adventure from Heritage to Horizon.
CAP group commanders will serve as project liaisons, coordinating with base personnel to identify and fill needs.
CAP members will wear a distinctive polo and khaki uniform while performing VSAF duties. Those who join CAP in order to perform VSAF services will be considered full-fledged CAP members, with the same rights and responsibilities that membership entails.
Quote from: NIN on January 10, 2008, 09:31:28 PM
Now this is surely interesting
Quote
Civil Air Patrol buoys AF home front concerns with new support program
Volunteer Support of the Air Force program will match CAP members' capabilities with opportunities to serve military families
January 10, 2008
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS -- On Jan. 11, 1949, the secretary of the Air Force described the Civil Air Patrol as a "civilian auxiliary of the Air Force."
Today, 59 years later, Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs, the Honorable Craig Duehring announced a new pilot project which will kick off at two bases this month. Randolph Air Force Base and Wright-Patterson AFB were selected as the two sites for evaluating the potential of an additional Air Force non-combat mission for CAP using existing statutory and Secretarial authorities.
"This program called Volunteer Support to the Air Force, or VSAF will provide greater volunteer opportunities for citizens through the CAP while enhancing the Air Force capabilities as a part of the Air Force's Continuum of Service program," Mr. Duehring said.
"The members of the Civil Air Patrol, all patriotic American citizens, are proud to have this opportunity to help the brave men and women defending our country and the loved ones they leave behind when they deploy, but before now, a structure did not exist to match volunteer capabilities with base needs," said Interim CAP Commander Brig. Gen. Amy Courter. "Our 57,000 volunteers welcome this opportunity to support the military families in their communities across the nation."
Continuum of Service (CoS) is a Department of Defense initiative that seeks to provide opportunities for service along a continuum from military active duty to civilian volunteer. The CoS recognizes that people are the key ingredient to the sustained success of our Air Force and focuses on eliminating the barriers that allows our highly trained, motivated people to continue to serve as their personal situations change over the course of their career.
This endeavor builds on the willingness and capabilities of our citizen volunteers. In the pilot project announced today, the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol continue their historic partnership to involve America's citizens in Air Power's ongoing adventure from Heritage to Horizon.
CAP group commanders will serve as project liaisons, coordinating with base personnel to identify and fill needs.
CAP members will wear a distinctive polo and khaki uniform while performing VSAF duties. Those who join CAP in order to perform VSAF services will be considered full-fledged CAP members, with the same rights and responsibilities that membership entails.
Surprise! Surprise! ;D (Gomer Pyle) . . . and apparently another uniform option!
Holy crap! More golf polo shirts. So much for a more professional looking force.
GC
Always with the knee-jerk up in here...
Chances are, a distinctive polo and khakis are typical dress for Wing Administrators and State Directors (of liaison services)
They are around this wing, and the two gentlemen in those positions who work in our Dept of Military Affairs building exemplify professionalism.
Do not, I say again, do not turn this into a uniform thread.
Anyone wants to take a guess if this will spread to other branches/reserve bases/ANG bases?
With the exception of the polo/khaki combo, I think this sounds like a great program. Of course I have no idea what they'll have people doing, but it still sounds like a good start to build a better relationship with the Air Force on. If the pilot program goes well and is done at most/all bases, then I think that this may lead us back to the close relationship that many of us want, and CAP needs.
Who knows, maybe someday we'll see 172s carrying bombs. ;D
I wonder if this program comes with base privileges and one of those "please don't treat me like a red-headed step-child vehicle stickers"...
Yeah, right...
-SeattleSarge
Quote from: SeattleSarge on January 10, 2008, 10:55:15 PM
I wonder if this program comes with base privileges and one of those "please don't treat me like a red-headed step-child vehicle stickers"...
Yeah, right...
-SeattleSarge
Considering that USAF isn't supposed to issue those stickers anymore, I'm going to guess it'll come without them.
I wonder if this will come with some sort of CAC for those approved for VSAF duty. THAT will enhance security for the SFs and allow for ease of movement on base for volunteers. Since meals are no longer free at active duty bases anyway, the volunteer should have no problems with that. BX and base lodging come with AFAM orders.
Actually, the AF already has a uniform like the one described, worn by the recruiters. On the "Uniform" thread there has been a suggestion that the CAP golf shirt uniform switch to a khaki pant to match the AF counterpart uniform.
Now... implementation of this program had BETTER be done right. If we do this right, we come off looking like pros. If, on the other hand, we "Send in the clowns," we end up confirming the worst rumors about us and validate all the negative stereotypes.
My recommendation to MY Group CC (and for any others that ask me) would be to:
1. Immediately poll all Group members to see who wants to participate.
2. Collect a DETAILED resume from each person interested. I suggest following a modified military bio statement format. Whatever is used, the format must be standardized.
3. Select one officer as POC with the base personnel shop, or the Group CC may opt to do this himself/herself.
4. Review with the personnel shop the available pool of volunteers and work it against the needs of the base.
5. Have all selectees interview with the OIC of the shop they will be working.
6. Provide for OJT/local training.
7. Provide for frequent follow up, performance review, and productivity tracking.
I'd like to see some idea of the tasks they expect the VSAF to perform.
Their continuing reference to "military families" makes me wonder if this is a "helping families with deployed Airmen" support work. The Family Readiness briefing I got last weekend talked about ways for people to help families. While mowing lawns for single parents is a noble task, it may not leverage any CAP specific capability.
I'd like to see more of the meat of the proposal before assuming the AF is welcoming us home.
Group/Wing CCs aren't in position to provide training for this, OJT or otherwise. They are also not in a position to conduct reviews. The only thing they can as for is training from the military side and for copies of reviews to be filed with the group CC when the member is reviewed by their immediate supervisor on the military side.
In my opinion, the concept still needs a lot of work. Specific jobs have to be identified with specific requirements sought. Members have to be found willing to contribute their time and effort to this project, but those members have to be sufficiently qualified, non-essential for CAP operations, and in close proximity to the base. That's a tough slot to fill.
We'll see what happens. I wish some of this help would be for recruiters. Just about every squadron in the nation has a USAF/USAFR recruiting office nearby and just about anyone could help given some simple training.
Aside from knowing all the particulars, I'm ready to sign up. Hill AFB is about 30 minutes from me and one of my neighbors is a civilian working in the legal dept.
hmmm....this may turn out to be nothing. I have serious doubts until I see a release from the AF detailing exactly what the VSAF will be doing. If this does go through, I tottally expect CAC cards, and full base privileges. I doubt that too.
It MAY turn out to be nothing, or it may be good.
I do not think the AF is in a position to identify specific jobs that need to be done. That really needs to be identified at a local base level.
I also disagree that the Group CC is not in a position to manage this program. The Group CC should be the person who knows the capability of his/her officers, and should be able to match officer skill sets with base requirements. Performance and productivity reviews should be a part of supervision, and I assume that the CAP chain of command will still be involved with members assigned to VSAF.
I also do not think that these positions will involve mowing lawns. I hope not, anyway, since I don't even mow my OWN lawn. (I live in Florida, there are certain advantages to illegal immigration!) I think the "Family Support" will most likely involve community-level assistance to families of deployed reservists. ID card matters, CHAMPUS paperwork, maybe employer support issues. I agree with George that support to recruiters should be included in this plan.
The AF has had a serious drawdown of personnel, and some of us on these boards saw such a program coming for more than a year.
Does it come as any surprise that the acting commander of the CAP unit on one of the two bases selected for this program had to hear about it on a message board similar to this one?
[
Quote
"The members of the Civil Air Patrol, all patriotic American citizens...
NOT TRUE!!!
CAPR 39-2 states: "be a citizen of the United States of America or an
alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence to the United States of America and its territories and possessions or
any lawfully admitted non-citizen residing in the US speciafically approved by the National Commander;s designee (NHQ CAP/LMM)."
So... the VSAF is sort of like the civilian volunteer auxiliary to CAP - which is the civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force...?
...and we want to make sure that VSAF members are not incorrectly identified as regular CAP members...?
Please keep this thread about the concept itself.
A separate thread has been established for those wishing to discuss the uniform of the VSAF.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4024.0
enjoy.
Having had another chance to review the web version of the story, I see a few things:
* This seems to be directed at supporting military families - I see nothing that would indicate support to operations.
* The "uniform" seems to be a CAP, as opposed to a VSAF, uniform. This seems to indicate VSAF is working for CAP instead of us working for VSAF.
* Still no idea on the work envisioned or the imagined skillset.
Right now, the jury is still out if this is just another "Mission for America" or a mission suited for CAP.
The "Continuum of Service" mentioned in the article is a concept first proposed by DoD several years ago, but is based on the same term/concept used in the civilian world.
For DoD it's primarily aimed at issues related to impacts on the Guard and Reserve members and their families because of the ongoing deployments. A Google search will bring up numerous articles and presentations within DoD.
One book, Service to Country: Personnel Policy and the Transformation of Western Militaries, edited by Curtis Gilroy and Cindy Williams and published in April 2007 includes this:
"Enhanced Volunteerism
Another aspect of the continuum-of-service proposal focuses on individuals who are not currently serving in the military. These are people with a needed civilian high-technology skill who would agree to serve on a stand-by basis to provide service as needed. This service could be performed in uniform or as a civilian volunteer. One group of particular interest is military retirees."
"The continuum of service could also accommodate mission augmentation, to be performed by civilian volunteers who are trained to service standards. Existing volunteer auxiliaries such as the Coast Guard auxiliary could be expanded to attract individuals from all age groups who wish to volunteer their talents. Auxiliaries offer a way to manage and employ those military-retiree volunteers who are not required on active duty. Under the Coast Guard auxiliary model, for example, civilians regularly deploy on cutters and Coast Guard aircraft as augmentees, just like their active-duty and reserve counterparts. The Civil Air Patrol provides the Air Force with similar operating capabilities. Such models could be extended and adopted more broadly."
The section of the book these come from can be read at Google books: Continuum of Service (http://tinyurl.com/285qm4)
While this doesn't tell what this initial VSAF activity will be, it gives some idea of the overall concept of CoS.
Mike
Well, as a supporter of the concept of CAP augmenting AF units, I suppose I think this is one way of putting that into action. Family support, if in fact that is what this is supposed to be targeted at, would be a decent start.
Among many questions that I would have is: Is this an Air Force Assigned Mission or a CAP corporate mission? I suppose it doesn't matter very much at the ground level (unless you happen to be injured while doing this work). If an AFAM, then the reporting and record keeping requirements might be interesting.
Really, the Air Force Base Augmentation Thread is quite applicable, but I suppose that now we have a specific program being implemented, it probably deserves its own thread.
yeah river, this all seems oddly familiar does it not? ;D
FRG & IT type stuff is a decent place to start I guess. Some of the other stuff we discussed in that previous thread & the couple related ones around that time might be the place to grow to after we get our feet wet. Admin will take care of itself & adapt to the mission requirements. Don't worry too much about that stuff.
I can see filling various customer service, help desk type positions for those qualified and or trained. Example; The Scott AFB clinic has volunteers answering the phones.
It would be great to get involved in the Public Affairs shop, well, at least for us PA types.
I would love time in the Base PA Office. All the shops are "under one roof" now. Print and visual media. At Scott AFB they always seem to be short handed.
PA is one of the things we discussed in our augmentation discussion. Another angle was the AF standing up a new effort to carry the fight & HLD effort to cyberspace - whole new numbered AF command for it. We talked about working that effort, possibly in a telecommute role, cited stories of private citizens that'd done similiar to high praise. Maybe that's too far, I don't know. The concept though was find every way CAP can directly support the realworld AF mission, either by taking pressure off them or by actually taking part in that mission on the homefront.
Whatever the intended scope on this program, I'd see it as an opportunity to get out foot in the door & further expand CAP's role within the total AF team. I hope people will recognize & take advantage of that, even if it isn't necessarily exciting to start with.
From the announcement:
QuoteThose who join CAP in order to perform VSAF services will be considered full-fledged CAP members, with the same rights and responsibilities that membership entails.
I've always said that were CAP to get into AF augmentation that it would bring people into the organization who otherwise might not join. We see the same thing in CG Aux where people who have no desire to go out on boats or teach boating safety classes join just for the opportunity to work directly with the CG in some form or fashion.
So, from the above we can assume that at a minimum VSAF members will have to go through membership dues, Level 1 and OPSEC.
I do wonder if the AF is thinking of pushing those already volunteering for them in other roles into CAP through this program. It would provide a slighly increased level of security for them in that the volunteers would have to go through fingerprinting and background checks as well as pushing some of the responsibility for managing them onto CAP.
BTW, it seems that the Group in the area of one of those bases was "in the loop" and a senior squadron that met at that base was being considered for the VSAF support role, not the cadet unit. So my earlier post that the unit commander was not in the loop, while accurate, did not paint the full picture.
One of the under-SecAFs is kicking off this program at the end of the month at one of the test bases.
This book discusses both CAP and CG Aux in terms of the "continuum of service" with a few paragraphs on page 303:
The All-Volunteer Force: Thirty Years of Service By Barbara A. Bicksler, Curtis L. Gilroy, http://books.google.com/books?id=dsNrRjCFVfIC&printsec=frontcover
As an Active Member of the Armed Services I can tell you from expierence that the only possibility of this happening will be in a customer service role, meet & greet type jobs. The Government cannot let civilians into areas that are sensitive, I.E. Information Technology is a sensitive area and requires Secutity clearances. Public Afairs, handled by Military Personnel authorized to speak on behalf of the Wing Commanders. There will be Insurance/Liability questions, Background Checks to be accomplished and so on. Every Job or area on an Installation requires a Security Clearance.
Family Readiness Programs are already staffed by full time individuals already assisting family members as well as our Commanders, First Sergeants, immediate Supervisors and Chaplains.
In short the concept of this program is good however there is no CONOPS(CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS) doctrine in place to bring this program online and if it did it would be very, very limited operations. ???.
^ Remember 2 years ago when the call went out for all prior-service or currently serving military folks to list their Security clearances in E-services. Done and Done!
I do agree that I seriously doubt there will be any "important" jobs. Most likely Airman Snuffy deploys from the Base welcome Center and instead of having another guy fill in, CAP is called to meet and great base visitors. Nothing more and nothing less. I do not expect anything serious to come of this.
I am wondering if this more of a Wright-Patterson Squadron decided to try to volunteer some time at the AF museum, so CAP PAO at NHQ writes an "awesome story" type thing?
While I don't see CAP members serving as spokesmen for the AF, I can certainly see them working in the public affairs shop on base as writers, editors, or in other functions.
Sorry Razor, but the concept has already been proven by the CG Auxiliary and by those State Defense Forces that augment their NG units. While each are in slightly different situations, they have proven that unpaid volunteers working on a part time basis can provide valuable service to the military.
Don't bother going all "civilians can't do it" on us....the rise of the civilian contractor and other civilian staff within the military world has shown that a lot of traditional "military" jobs can be done by civilians.
Will this ever be a huge program with hundreds of CAP members working on each base? Probably not, unless we get in a WWII situation again (unlikely).
Quote from: RiverAux on January 14, 2008, 12:58:38 AM
Will this ever be a huge program with hundreds of CAP members working on each base? Probably not, unless we get in a WWII situation again (unlikely).
If that did happen, I seriously think the AF would just absorb CAP assets and money. And let all CAP members go.
Nah, we've gone through quite a lot of wars and military budget cutbacks and we're still here. The AF is axing thousands of people to buy a few more planes, and we're still here.
I'm gonna have to non-concur with Razor on this one. In our Federal role, we are an "Instrumentality of the United States" and therefore legally the same as AF personnel. We can be given a military mission and we can perform it. We have had inland SAR so long that we all forget that Congress assigned the inland SAR mission to the USAF in 1948. The AF gave us that mission, and now we own it.
Congress has further authorized the USAF to assign CAP any non-combat mission or program. Yes. A CAP officer CAN and maybe someday will be the "Face of the Base" in PA and speak for the commander.
It might just be me, which brings me to my next point.
We have a lot of military retirees in CAP. Most are too old or have developed medical probelms that preclude returning to active or reserve service, but do not stop them from serving in a support mission on a CONUS base. This program could be a vehicle to harness that asset, and add it to other trained folk to help out.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 14, 2008, 01:40:19 AM
We have a lot of military retirees in CAP. Most are too old or have developed medical probelms that preclude returning to active or reserve service,
I will agree that most are over 40, but to say they are too old or have developed medical problems that preclude returing to active or reserve service is a push. I am sure I would have no problems keeping up the active duty General I worked for when he was a Major and I was a new Captain. I will pass on jumping out of airplanes or pulling 12 g's but other than that there are very few jobs that would be too taxing for anyone that can walk around the block twice without passing out.
A "VSAF Program Clarification" letter has been sent to the BOG and NB from Gen. Courter, Col. Hodgkins and Mr. Rowland.
QuoteCAP recently announced the launch of a new pilot program – Volunteer Support to the Air Force (VSAF). Immediately following the announcement, several concerns were expressed by members regarding the viability and credibility of the program. In particular, questions were raised regarding the reasons for selecting a new name and a new uniform. Is VSAF designed to replace CAP? Are uniformed CAP members an embarrassment to the Air Force? Certainly there is a need to address these concerns as we move toward the program's January 28 kickoff at Wright-Patterson and Randolph Air Force Bases.
CAP volunteers participating in VSAF will provide vital support functions -- including those that support operational missions or enhance the quality of life on base -- that have been reduced or eliminated due to a lack of Air Force personnel.
Examples of support for operational missions include working at base operations, supporting mobility deployment processing centers, and helping administration in flying squadrons.
Examples of support for quality of life on base include staffing family readiness centers, which provide military families and single military members with the quality-of-life support they need to cope with the demands of Air Force life.
Similarly, staffing at fitness centers, skills development centers, libraries, and special events improves Air Force life for those service members and their families.
VSAF provides CAP another valuable opportunity to serve this great nation. It is designed to complement our Missions for America, not to replace our entire program of service or replace any current mission area. It is an additive mission; a perfect example of CAP's growth into the future!
The paragraph of the letter regarding the uniform has been posted in the thread in the Uniforms section.
QuoteFinally, VSAF is simply the promotional name selected for this new mission. It is unique in that it is truly one of the first missions CAP has undertaken in which individual CAP members will be working with individual Air Force personnel versus CAP providing service as a group. Within the Air Force, we expect that the name will be CAP-VSAF: providing enhanced visibility to the Civil Air Patrol, while also being descriptive of what the service members should expect – our support!
Full letter attached.
Mike
Mike....thank you!
Seems like the thing may be getting a bigger push by the AF then I thought.
However, I have a terrible feeling that those CAP members that really want to do this, but are not "friends" with the Group Commander will find themselves mowing grass, or cleaning nautilus machines at the Gym.
I just don't see how staffing the Gym works for this program? We (taxpayers) already employee civilians on all installations running and working in the gym.
I would love to see this program move onto Reserve Bases as well. I would like to drive to Wright PATT to see the kickoff! Plus, Ohio in JAN.......wonderful!
Okay, I'll relax now. I think this is a good idea, we'll provide another service for the Air Force as well as putting out CAP's name a little more. I'd like to know if regular CAP member's can dual operate between regCAP and VSAF so that they can participate too.
I just noticed in the letter they want to refer to it as CAP-VSAF. So when will we need to change our tapes on our BDU's over, and when will the confusion start between CAP-USAF and CAP-VSAF.
"Hi I'm Mike from CAP-VSAF, here are my orders from CAP-USAF, please direct me to the DIFAC". The Junior enlisted guy in charge of me that has been in the AF for 6 months says "What?!!?"
I think the polo/khaki decision was a poor choice. I understand that they don't want to "confuse" the existing employees at AFB shops with our rank structures. However, CAP-VSAF uniforms aren't going to be helpful to CAP in the long run because the rest of CAP doesn't look like that.
The solution to this problem should have been really simple... allow CAP members to wear the current polo/gray slacks uniform or the blues/bdus with CAP cutouts a-la- SM (no grade).
No rank confusion. No confusion over who's in what organization and... we fit in with everyone else.
That's what the USCG Auxiliary does. It works very well for them.
As far as confusions go... it takes about 30 seconds to explain who we are to the Airman or civilian employee. Our members are used to that anyway. We do it all day long. The Airman benefits from knowing that there is such an organization to help USAF in their missions. That's one way of spreading the word to the Air Force community so that the next generation of Airmen ALL know who we are and what we do.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 18, 2008, 08:41:43 PM
I think the polo/khaki decision was a poor choice. I understand that they don't want to "confuse" the existing employees at AFB shops with our rank structures. However, CAP-VSAF uniforms aren't going to be helpful to CAP in the long run because the rest of CAP doesn't look like that.
The solution to this problem should have been really simple... allow CAP members to wear the current polo/gray slacks uniform or the blues/bdus with CAP cutouts a-la- SM (no grade).
No rank confusion. No confusion over who's in what organization and... we fit in with everyone else.
That's what the USCG Auxiliary does. It works very well for them.
As far as confusions go... it takes about 30 seconds to explain who we are to the Airman or civilian employee. Our members are used to that anyway. We do it all day long. The Airman benefits from knowing that there is such an organization to help USAF in their missions. That's one way of spreading the word to the Air Force community so that the next generation of Airmen ALL know who we are and what we do.
DBL — That stands for "Don't be logical". ;D I agree with you 100%, but seems like CAP tends to take the simplest thing and make it much more complicated than it really needs to be.
Quote from: Ricochet13 on January 19, 2008, 12:52:10 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 18, 2008, 08:41:43 PM
I think the polo/khaki decision was a poor choice. I understand that they don't want to "confuse" the existing employees at AFB shops with our rank structures. However, CAP-VSAF uniforms aren't going to be helpful to CAP in the long run because the rest of CAP doesn't look like that.
The solution to this problem should have been really simple... allow CAP members to wear the current polo/gray slacks uniform or the blues/bdus with CAP cutouts a-la- SM (no grade).
No rank confusion. No confusion over who's in what organization and... we fit in with everyone else.
That's what the USCG Auxiliary does. It works very well for them.
As far as confusions go... it takes about 30 seconds to explain who we are to the Airman or civilian employee. Our members are used to that anyway. We do it all day long. The Airman benefits from knowing that there is such an organization to help USAF in their missions. That's one way of spreading the word to the Air Force community so that the next generation of Airmen ALL know who we are and what we do.
DBL — That stands for "Don't be logical". ;D I agree with you 100%, but seems like CAP tends to take the simplest thing and make it much more complicated than it really needs to be.
Yeah... I think we got that from our step-father organization, USAF.
QuoteThe selection of the distinctive polo and khaki uniform, rather than a military-style uniform, was a conscious decision as well. Since it is anticipated that members will frequently work side-by-side Air Force civilian employees and enlisted personnel, many of whom may not be familiar with CAP's rank structure and because members may be providing customer service to junior enlisted personnel or dependents, we did not want the uniform to become an obstacle that distracts from the support our volunteers will provide to the Air Force through this program.
My baloney meter is pegging out.
*bump*
AF.mil coverage
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123083714 (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123083714)
Quote
Randolph, Civil Air Patrol kick off new support program
1/25/2008 - RANDOLPH AIR FORCE BASE, Texas (AFPN) -- A new pilot program between the Air Force and Civil Air Patrol officials is set to kick off with a meeting and orientation tour Jan. 28 at Randolph Air Force Base.
"The new program called Volunteer Support to the Air Force will provide greater opportunities for citizens through the CAP while enhancing the Air Force capabilities as part of the Air Force's Continuum of Service," said Craig Duehring, the assistant secretary of the Air Force for manpower and Reserve affairs.
Continuum of Service is a Department of Defense initiative that seeks to provide opportunities for service along a continuum from active duty military members to civilian volunteers. The initiative recognizes people are the key ingredient to the sustained success of our Air Force and focuses on eliminating the barriers that allow people to continue to serve as their personal situations change over the course of their career.
Randolph AFB along with Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, are the only two bases testing the new program.
"This is a tremendous opportunity for Randolph (officials) and the Air Force to leverage the many volunteer capabilities of the Civil Air Patrol," said Col. Richard Clark, the 12th Flying Training Wing commander. "This initiative will enhance the Air Force mission as the CAP professionals bring experience, knowledge and enthusiasm to the many missions of Randolph AFB."
CAP officials are scheduled to get a mission briefing, visit the 560th Flying Training Squadron, tour the 99th Flying Training Squadron's Tuskegee Airman Hall and see a static display review of Randolph AFB aircraft.
The CAP, the official auxiliary of the Air Force, is a nonprofit organization with nearly 57,000 members nationwide that performs 90 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions as tasked by Air Force Rescue Coordination Center officials.
Doesn't Randolph do flight training?
Could CAP members who are FIs perform parts of primary flight training for UPT students on CAP aircraft?
I thought CAP got rid of its AT-6's a LONG time ago ::)
Questions/Observations:
I just LOVE how even in the AF PAO release they didnt say what exactly jobs we will be doing. Just that the Underdog for MP&R will be making a speech and that the local CAP folks will get a tour.
Does anyone see a problem with that?
Anyone have any idea how long the trial period may last?
Will this affect any other augmentation programs? - I know the folks at Scott Augment gate guards and I know Kach does his SpaceTour bit...
Why isnt Maxwell a trial Site?
(Considering that it is, well, you know... the location of CAP-USAF/ NHQ)
Those who have submitted info to E-Services about your former or current CLEARANCE: has the staff at NHQ got ahold of you? AE... have we seen anything as to why they asked?
Does anyone think the above request for info, AND the fact that OPSEC just went mandatory for all nationwide ( cadinks included) is related?
- Was the nationwide OPSEC thing just seen as a good idea?
- OR might they be a precursor to select CAP members being issued a Confidential, Secret or For Your Eyes Only-Decoder Ring?
Some of this is speculation, but Im wondering if its related.
Another question; as far as getting more base privileges... those folks in the know/ current/ prior service. What kind of privileges do current vollunteers recieve?
Final Question: DO current Vollunteers (CAP and otherwise) recieve a seperate ID Card? .(.. Kach?)
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2008, 07:04:33 AM
Another question; as far as getting more base privileges... those folks in the know/ current/ prior service. What kind of privileges do current volunteers receive?
I can answer related to the Army side, and a little AF side. When I was Ft Drum, the civilian volunteers on post were issued CAC cards. I do believe it was the civilian version with "Volunteer" printed on it. They received access to the E/NCO Club, and could join if they wanted to. They also were allowed access to all AAFES activities (including class six), and all MWR activities.
When I was at Ft Knox, there were civilians volunteers there helping with the ROTC Camp, they also received CAC cards to access the networks, and received Post privileges.
The civilian that volunteers in the recruiting office at my local AF Base (who is a neighbor of mine) also has a civilian CAC card, which does not have any GS grade on it, or "volunteer" written on it. She gets access to everything as well. I think she is the only volunteer on the base.
I seriously doubt CAP members would get a card or any access to MWR/AAFES activities. That is a shame! I still think the VSAF volunteers will be found in the base gym, library, car care center, gas station or Red Cross office. We shall see.
So, what exacly is the VASF.? I know what it stands for so please dont go there. But I wasnt clear on what it does. I read all the PC stuff, but tell me the down and dirty what it is. Thanks
CAP people volunteering to do unspeakable acts for USAF people.
unspeakable because well... nobody has really spoken about that part yet.
That's pretty much all we know right about now.
Quote from: tedda on January 26, 2008, 11:20:45 PM
CAP people volunteering to do unspeakable acts for USAF people.
unspeakable because well... nobody has really spoken about that part yet.
That's pretty much all we know right about now.
hmmmmmm..........so basically we dont know what we will be doing?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2008, 07:04:33 AM
I thought CAP got rid of its AT-6's a LONG time ago ::)
Questions/Observations:
I just LOVE how even in the AF PAO release they didnt say what exactly jobs we will be doing. Just that the Underdog for MP&R will be making a speech and that the local CAP folks will get a tour.
Does anyone see a problem with that?
Anyone have any idea how long the trial period may last?
Will this affect any other augmentation programs? - I know the folks at Scott Augment gate guards and I know Kach does his SpaceTour bit...
Why isnt Maxwell a trial Site?
(Considering that it is, well, you know... the location of CAP-USAF/ NHQ)
Those who have submitted info to E-Services about your former or current CLEARANCE: has the staff at NHQ got ahold of you? AE... have we seen anything as to why they asked?
Does anyone think the above request for info, AND the fact that OPSEC just went mandatory for all nationwide ( cadinks included) is related?
- Was the nationwide OPSEC thing just seen as a good idea?
- OR might they be a precursor to select CAP members being issued a Confidential, Secret or For Your Eyes Only-Decoder Ring?
Some of this is speculation, but Im wondering if its related.
Another question; as far as getting more base privileges... those folks in the know/ current/ prior service. What kind of privileges do current vollunteers recieve?
Final Question: DO current Vollunteers (CAP and otherwise) recieve a seperate ID Card? .(.. Kach?)
From Kach...
Yes. In order to gain access to Cape Canaveral Air Force Base, a special security pass is required. Trainees get a 4-month pass, during which time they must complete the training course, and security checks out their background. Then you get an annual pass.
The ID is the same as the ones the RM people need to gain access to the very secure place with lots of secret squirrel stuff going on. My military ID is no good at that gate.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 18, 2008, 08:41:43 PM
I think the polo/khaki decision was a poor choice. I understand that they don't want to "confuse" the existing employees at AFB shops with our rank structures. However, CAP-VSAF uniforms aren't going to be helpful to CAP in the long run because the rest of CAP doesn't look like that.
The solution to this problem should have been really simple... allow CAP members to wear the current polo/gray slacks uniform or the blues/bdus with CAP cutouts a-la- SM (no grade).
No rank confusion. No confusion over who's in what organization and... we fit in with everyone else.
That's what the USCG Auxiliary does. It works very well for them.
As far as confusions go... it takes about 30 seconds to explain who we are to the Airman or civilian employee. Our members are used to that anyway. We do it all day long. The Airman benefits from knowing that there is such an organization to help USAF in their missions. That's one way of spreading the word to the Air Force community so that the next generation of Airmen ALL know who we are and what we do.
Or...
We could use the existing golf shirt uniform, which has no rank on it.
Nothing out of NHQ justifies a completely new (and ugly) uniform.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 26, 2008, 11:50:27 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 18, 2008, 08:41:43 PM
I think the polo/khaki decision was a poor choice. I understand that they don't want to "confuse" the existing employees at AFB shops with our rank structures. However, CAP-VSAF uniforms aren't going to be helpful to CAP in the long run because the rest of CAP doesn't look like that.
The solution to this problem should have been really simple... allow CAP members to wear the current polo/gray slacks uniform or the blues/bdus with CAP cutouts a-la- SM (no grade).
No rank confusion. No confusion over who's in what organization and... we fit in with everyone else.
That's what the USCG Auxiliary does. It works very well for them.
As far as confusions go... it takes about 30 seconds to explain who we are to the Airman or civilian employee. Our members are used to that anyway. We do it all day long. The Airman benefits from knowing that there is such an organization to help USAF in their missions. That's one way of spreading the word to the Air Force community so that the next generation of Airmen ALL know who we are and what we do.
Or...
We could use the existing golf shirt uniform, which has no rank on it.
Nothing out of NHQ justifies a completely new (and ugly) uniform.
I agree. There just is no sound reason to replace one polo for another at members' expense. Again... that is if USAF doesn't provide the polo for those who join VSAF.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 27, 2008, 06:45:15 AM
I agree. There just is no sound reason to replace one polo for another at members' expense. Again... that is if USAF doesn't provide the polo for those who join VSAF.
Gentleman, there is already a discussion about the VSAF uniform taking place in another thread. This thread is for discussion on the program itself - not its accouterments.
Hm, I might have to make a run out to Randolph in a couple weeks and see what I can find out for you guys.
Quote from: Pylon on January 27, 2008, 10:57:40 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 27, 2008, 06:45:15 AM
I agree. There just is no sound reason to replace one polo for another at members' expense. Again... that is if USAF doesn't provide the polo for those who join VSAF.
Gentleman, there is already a discussion about the VSAF uniform taking place in another thread. This thread is for discussion on the program itself - not its accouterments.
Actually, there isn't - that thread got locked when it went into accusing the NB of selling out to Vanguard.
Unfortunately, until the people from the two AFB's that are acting as pilots for the program get back from their initial meetings, no one will have the gouge on what we'll be doing.
On a slightly different aspect of this issue ----
I wonder how this program will be monitored and evaluated? Is someone going to keep track of how many individual CAP volunteers participate? How much time they volunteer? Exactly what they've been doing?
And, more importantly, what the criteria for success that would lead them to take the program national? Percent of CAP members within 50 miles that participate in the program and donate more than 100 hours a year to the program? Total participants? Total hours?
While I am a strong proponent of the program, I do think it will take a while to really ramp up at any one site. None of our current members planned on doing this activity, so only a certain percentage of them will have the extra time to do this on top of their normal activities. I think to some extent this will be a program that will eventually attract in new recruits who would be interested in VSAF first and more traditional CAP activities second.
I think to some extent they would probably get higher start-up CAP participation if they picked a few specific "missions" or 1 AF unit in particular for CAP members to focus on rather than opening up 50 different types of jobs all over the base.
Also, I think they are far more likely to have CAP members volunteer for positions that directly relieve a military member from some duty. I doubt any CAPPERs are going to volunteer to do something that a paid civilian normally does. Sure, it would benefit the AF by maybe saving them a little bit of money, but I think potential augmentees are going to want to have a more direct impact on the lives of airmen by helping out one of them directly by giving them time off or giving them time to work on higher priority tasks.
In the Museum Support program we carefully track the number of volunteer hours, the number of tours, and the total number of persons visiting. "Success" will be evaluated on 1. Mission accomplishment and 2. CAP's contribution to that accomplishment.
John, it is good that you support the museum program and I am glad it is going well for you however lets be realistic here, the "VSAF" program no matter which high profile organization or person is pushing this, the final say so will be the "WING" Commanders at each installation and to be very honest with you it will wind up as you say the "MUSEUM POGRAM".. Sorry to be so blunt..
huh? ???
Quote from: RAZOR on January 31, 2008, 12:59:26 AM
John, it is good that you support the museum program and I am glad it is going well for you however lets be realistic here, the "VSAF" program no matter which high profile organization or person is pushing this, the final say so will be the "WING" Commanders at each installation and to be very honest with you it will wind up as you say the "MUSEUM POGRAM".. Sorry to be so blunt..
Huh X 2.
I was merely commenting on the documentation requirements, and giving an example of what we do.
Straight from the VSAF Program
I am currently working in the VSAF program at Wright-Patterson. So far I have spent two days in the Exercise Planning office and have to tell you it's not what I expected. Like a lot of you I expected to be in a dark basement of some run down building making small stacks out of big stacks of paper with my red Swingline stapler, but it's not like that at all. I am actively participating with the rest of the office staff and they are treating me as if I was either active Air Force or payed civilian employee.
So far I have assisted with the planning of an operational exercise, sat in on meetings with department heads, assisted with logistical support (securing facilities and equipment for the exercise) and provided input for operational planning. They are actually using my training and experience (civilian Firefighter and CAP Operations Planning) as input and incorporating it into the planning, or at least considering my ideas.
The office is very understaffed and are very happy to have the help. I have been treated with nothing but respect instead of the red headed step child of the AF. I think that this is a great program, have nothing but good things to say about it, and plan on spending most of my days off work in the office helping out.
Now I can't speak for all of the people working in the VSAF program (minimal number right now), but so far I have had a great experience. By talking with the AF Major over the office it seams like this can be a win win situation for both the AF and CAP. There are plans in the work to get CAP more involved with base emergency preparedness and training, and I have even had an opportunity to speak with someone from AF Emergency Management who wants to talk about our capabilities and what we can provide to them. Doors are opening already and it's only been two days.
I have been told by members at the top of the VSAF (CAP side) planning staff that the players involved on the AF side of the house were told to make our time spent with them "Meaningful Employment." They know as well as you and I that if people don't like the job they are given, they are not going to do it, and then they are out "free help." CAP may want to throw around buzz words like "Unpaid Professional" but the boys and girls at the top know we are still volunteers.
Who gets a CAC card and who gets what privileges are directly up to the instillation commander.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 26, 2008, 08:54:13 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2008, 07:04:33 AM
Another question; as far as getting more base privileges... those folks in the know/ current/ prior service. What kind of privileges do current volunteers receive?
I can answer related to the Army side, and a little AF side. When I was Ft Drum, the civilian volunteers on post were issued CAC cards. I do believe it was the civilian version with "Volunteer" printed on it. They received access to the E/NCO Club, and could join if they wanted to. They also were allowed access to all AAFES activities (including class six), and all MWR activities.
When I was at Ft Knox, there were civilians volunteers there helping with the ROTC Camp, they also received CAC cards to access the networks, and received Post privileges.
The civilian that volunteers in the recruiting office at my local AF Base (who is a neighbor of mine) also has a civilian CAC card, which does not have any GS grade on it, or "volunteer" written on it. She gets access to everything as well. I think she is the only volunteer on the base.
I seriously doubt CAP members would get a card or any access to MWR/AAFES activities. That is a shame! I still think the VSAF volunteers will be found in the base gym, library, car care center, gas station or Red Cross office. We shall see.
^ Did you get a CAC or a base ID card? Are you allowed to eat at the BX.....what other services can you use that other "paid" employees can use? Have there been any problems yet? How were you selected (as in did the Group CC interview you and whatnot)? Did you have to take any classes? Was there any training? Who do you work for (Officer, Enlisted etc), does anyone work with you, does anyone work for you?
Just some questions now that we have our first VSAF'er!!!!
Jeez Mikey, way to prioritize your questions (what goodies do you get? what is messed up with the program? Then some worthwhile questions...)
Quote from: RiverAux on March 03, 2008, 05:53:04 AM
Jeez Mikey, way to prioritize your questions (what goodies do you get? ...
Actually, IIRC, Mikey is already a paid minion of Uncle Sam. I highly doubt he's asking those questions from the standpoint of a wannabe jonesing for access to the Class Six.
--"Did you get a CAC or Base ID card?: No, but this is being discussed. One of the first questions I was asked on day 1 was "Do you have network access?" Question 2: "Do you have e-mail access?" Answer to both was no. Who gets a CAC card is up to each individual instillation commander, CAP National doesn't have any say on that. So National is trying to figure that one out. At the same time the AF VSAF contact on Base is going to be working on it with the base commander. I don't have a lot of answers for this question yet... we just found out it was a problem. But I do see the base doing everything they can to help us out.
--Can I use the BX or other Services: No more or less than I could before as a normal CAP member. Just like the CAC cards, what we can and can not do is up to the instillation commander for the most part. CAP does have regs on it (CAPR 147-1 or AFI 10-2701), but its still up to the base CC. At WPAFB we have never had any problem using facilities like the Gym, AAFES, library, things like that. I know they are working out the exact regs right now.... keep in mind that there are literally two or three people working in the field right now.
--How was I selected?: My Group CC (the CAP local contact for the VSAF) sent out a Group Wide announcement asking for volunteers for the program, asking for CAP and professional resumes and an explanation of the program. Being a small group and the CC knowing pretty much all of us there really wasn't an interview needed. Was I interviewed by the AF? No. I don't think there is a standard for this though, I think the selection process was up to the Group CC.
--Did I take any classes?: No
--Was there any training?: Day 1 with the office was a lot of OJT type stuff. Kind of "This is what we do, how we do it, and how you can help." I don't think there can be a lot of specific training before going in seeing that each office is going to be doing something different.
--Who do you work for/with?: In the office I work for a Active Duty Major. My CAP boss is the Group CC. I work with an Active Capt. and a GS civilian employee. Thats all that they have in the office, like I said they are very understaffed.
Hope I answered all your questions. Just got home from day 3, it was much like the other days. I stayed busy and feel as if I actually was productive for the "team" and utilized well.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 03, 2008, 04:39:27 AM
^ Did you get a CAC or a base ID card? Are you allowed to eat at the BX.....what other services can you use that other "paid" employees can use? Have there been any problems yet? How were you selected (as in did the Group CC interview you and whatnot)? Did you have to take any classes? Was there any training? Who do you work for (Officer, Enlisted etc), does anyone work with you, does anyone work for you?
Just some questions now that we have our first VSAF'er!!!!
Based on what GPVIIOps has said, I'm encouraged by the VSAF program and how it's developing. Particularly in how CAP members might be utilized. Hope it succeeds and is expanded to other USAF installations.
I have to say - hearing that is [darn] encouraging. It sounds like you're a professional all the way. All the little meaningless details will work themselves out.
Awesome!!
Not having a USAF base around, I hope it spills down into the ANG too.
I have to tell ya guys, I am pleasantly surprised by what I have been doing and the respect and trust that the AF guys I am working with have given me. One of the first two days I was here they had me "sanity checking" documents they were going to send out and putting together an exercise schedule. The Maj. literally told me what he wanted to see in the schedule for the two day exercise and left it in my hands to make it happen. Here in a few weeks instead of folding towels as I thought I might be doing, I will be in the field with them assisting with the exercise I am helping to plan.
This is why I got into CAP in the first place (other than the fact that I was 15 and thought it was cool to wear cammies), to help out the AF. I didn't sign up for this program looking to get cheep beer at the class 6, but to help out the AF in what little way I can since I am not Active Duty anymore. And I honestly think I am doing that. I just hope that my little experience and small amount of information can encourage you to sign up as well.
Glad you are having such a nice time and actually able to seriously contribute. I just wouldn't have the time available to volunteer and be effective.. but there will always be someone who can.
So are they going to have you wear khakis and a polo shirt to a field exercise? ::)
That was my thought. I had to write up a report to my Group CC after my first week, and that was one of my concerns... the VSAF uniform in the field. In the report I made sure to make a point that this uniform wouldn't provide me adequate protection from the elements (Still cold and wet here in Ohio) and wouldn't be safe. It also wouldn't be particle at all. So the Group CC contacted the National VSAF guy who talked to all the other big shots and gave me a "go" on BDU's, but without rank on them. Believe it or not, they even offered to send me another BDU top if I didn't have an extra one or didn't want to buy one!
Quote from: GPVIIOps on March 04, 2008, 08:56:12 PM
So the Group CC contacted the National VSAF guy who talked to all the other big shots and gave me a "go" on BDU's, but without rank on them. Believe it or not, they even offered to send me another BDU top if I didn't have an extra one or didn't want to buy one!
And that is where I wash my hands with CAP. They push rank and grade for everything, then say when working with the AF.....you don't wear it. Then here is the legal solution. They give a contractor ID card, and put you in the freaking Civilian version of the BDU/ABU.
We need to write some letters here and either all go for getting rid of our rank and grade in CAP, or tell them we want changes. Is anyone else sick at what is happening?
Maybe I will be back next week. :'(
Okay, maybe we should require CAP-USAF members to remove their rank when they attend a CAP exercise so that our people don't confuse them with real CAP officers.... >:D
Nice gentlemen, on the real side of life, congratulations to those able to participate in the VSAF program. I definitely hope it expands, and thanks for the update. It is outstanding that you are getting to do real work for the USAF. Having more substantive real work to do may cut down on the amount of uniform issues in the long run.
I definately hope it expands to the ANG. - Since thats what Im near-
aside from that, Great job to those participating and I hope that the uniform issue is resolved to include the wearing of our usual uniforms. (With rank) Either that or get the contractor sets.
Personally... I dont understand why the wearing of Gray rank slides on Blues, or Ultramarine backed rank on BDUs would cause the USAF to have a problem. However, I bow to their wishes and will simply state that in a sense Im used to it from my time in the CGAux. ( We wear the CG Crest in place of rank when augmenting) ... maybe an embroidered CAP Triangle and Prop (Or the AF Shield and Eagle) would work for us. Dont know...
Well, I guess this is a personal problem.
I soldiered for my rank. I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS. I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.
My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!
QuotePersonally... I dont understand why the wearing of Gray rank slides on Blues, or Ultramarine backed rank on BDUs would cause the USAF to have a problem. However, I bow to their wishes and will simply state that in a sense Im used to it from my time in the CGAux. ( We wear the CG Crest in place of rank when augmenting) ... maybe an embroidered CAP Triangle and Prop (Or the AF Shield and Eagle) would work for us. Dont know...
I have done some augmenting as a CG Auxie and have no problem wearing the Aux crest while doing it, and actually that is all I wear on any of my CG Aux uniforms. The difference is that the CG Aux office insignia that I am entitled to don't represent anything I did to earn them...they just represent a staff position I held in the organization.
However, I have had to earn my CAP rank the hard way -- no special promotions for me. I met the criteria to earn that rank through my own effort and I feel that I should be allowed to wear them if I had the opportunity to augment for the AF. It is an entirely different situation in my book.
The funny thing is that the AF is apparently all worried about these VSAF folks who will be working side by side with AF people all the time. Those AF people are going to know who they are and they certainly aren't going to get confused about their authority or whatever the AF cares about. However, I can find all sorts of other opportunities to go on base in my CAP uniform and go trolling for salutes all day long if I cared to do so. That isn't affected at all.
Would I refuse to participate in VSAF over the rank thing? No, because I really do think the AF will eventually relent on it, just as they have apparently started to do so on the civilian-only uniform issue. It just isn't practical for CAP members to have multiple BDU/flightsuit/whatever both with and without rank.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 02:52:37 AM
Well, I guess this is a personal problem.
I soldiered for my rank. I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS. I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.
My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!
Airborne! Kach. As I said before, we're seeing what USAF really thinks of us. Kinda sad, but not unexpected.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on March 05, 2008, 05:57:45 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 02:52:37 AM
Well, I guess this is a personal problem.
I soldiered for my rank. I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS. I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.
My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!
Airborne! Kach. As I said before, we're seeing what USAF really thinks of us. Kinda sad, but not unexpected.
GC
Gunner:
Actually, I think we are seeing what our OWN leaders think of us. The Air Force here at Patrick wants us to wear the Uniform of the Day, BDU or flight suit... WITH RANK!
We deal with the public augmenting the PA office by giving tours of the USAF Missile Museum (which is on a secure base, access is only by organized tours) and the Air Force has no interest in us dressing to look like retail sales associates.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 04, 2008, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: GPVIIOps on March 04, 2008, 08:56:12 PM
So the Group CC contacted the National VSAF guy who talked to all the other big shots and gave me a "go" on BDU's, but without rank on them. Believe it or not, they even offered to send me another BDU top if I didn't have an extra one or didn't want to buy one!
And that is where I wash my hands with CAP. They push rank and grade for everything, then say when working with the AF.....you don't wear it. Then here is the legal solution. They give a contractor ID card, and put you in the freaking Civilian version of the BDU/ABU.
We need to write some letters here and either all go for getting rid of our rank and grade in CAP, or tell them we want changes. Is anyone else sick at what is happening?
Maybe I will be back next week. :'(
I don't think "they" (meaning USAF) push for rank and grade. WE push for that.
USAF knows what a Major is. And what a major isn't. Most of ours fall into the "isn't" category. That ain't a slam, just a fact.
I've been predicting this for years - the closer we want to work with USAF, the more we're gonna have to give up the military trappings and be treated for what we really are - unpaid USAF civilians.
Personally, if the only acceptable choices are to be treated as an "real" USAF civilian, or as a "pretend" officer - I'll take the former.
To demand more than that requires explaining why we need officer grade and yet the thousands upon thousands of full time USAF civilians don't.......
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 01:27:27 PM
Gunner:
Actually, I think we are seeing what our OWN leaders think of us. The Air Force here at Patrick wants us to wear the Uniform of the Day, BDU or flight suit... WITH RANK!
We deal with the public augmenting the PA office by giving tours of the USAF Missile Museum (which is on a secure base, access is only by organized tours) and the Air Force has no interest in us dressing to look like retail sales associates.
[/quote]
You're in a unique situation - USAF wants to get credit for coughing up Officers to act as tour guides, without actually having to give up officers. They have no problem if you get "confused" with real officers. In fact, that works to their advantage (as long as they choose their CAP-ers carefully, which I'm sure they do.)
Most VSAF positions are serving USAF personnel, not visitors. In those situations, the confusion does USAF no good.
^ What confusion? I am confused by your post. We have so much crap on our uniforms that scream " NOT AIR FORCE" we could hardly be mistaken for an AF Officer. Now you want to be mistaken for a military Officer, join the American Cadet Alliance. You have to physically walk withing 2 inches of an ACA Officer to tell the difference between them and the real deal.
The whole thing is stupid. Lets use the VSAF program to finally get rid of rank in CAP. There is no logical reason for it.....is there?
I mean come on, everyone here can still do their CAP jobs at the local unit with or without rank insignia right?
We have turned wearing rank in CAP into a "feel good about myself" issue. What the crap happened? I would like to meet the guy that came up with the idea that every adult member of CAP should be an Officer. If I could travel back in time, I would need only 3 minutes with the terd to correct the future state of affairs we find ourselves in.
Maybe it is just me, but this week has been sucking and everything I read here just keeps adding to reasons why CAP is starting to suck. I hate to say it here too, but stupidness like this is a reason we are not at 100,000 members.
So......I say to everyone that says we should not wear rank insignia.....you are correct. However, your reasons why may vary from mine. Face it.....in life some people should not be an Officer, and I have met my fair share in CAP.
Back to VSAF.....I hate to say it, but I still think the program will fail on its own. And that right there is a shame. It could have been a terrific way to get the ordinary CAP member (in whatever uniform) on the Air Force team.
BASH away :-*
I am sure that in some places VSAF won't work either because the AF officers don't really want to make it work, or the CAP people who want to do it aren't of sufficient quality, or perhaps no one on either side will care enough about it to make it work. The CG Aux sees the same thing all over the country. However, just because it doesn't work in one place at one particular time doesn't mean it can't work spectacularly someplace else or at the same place after a few personnel changes.
And.. to continue bashing...
I don't blame the Air Force. THEY are not confused by rank.
I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.
Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 11:32:32 PM
And.. to continue bashing...
I don't blame the Air Force. THEY are not confused by rank.
I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.
Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.
Indulging in some self loathing of the program sir?
No.
Merely continuing the program of criticizing those who do.
But... nice try, Kid!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 11:32:32 PM
And.. to continue bashing...
I don't blame the Air Force. THEY are not confused by rank.
I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.
Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.
Nice idea, but it won't work.
I suspect your job has heavy restrictions: they're not going to take any fat or fuzzy troops, or those that can't pass themselves off as real officers and talk their way through the museum.
As to the AF - OF COURSE they're going to be confused by the grade. They're trained to salute those in military uniform wearing officer grade and unless they're briefed on who and what CAP is, that's just what they're going to do. Even in the case of our current VSAF member, who has a job of more importance than average, he's not doing officer work.
Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done. They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.
Museum work is a good job for "Potemkin officers," as it involves looking like an officer without officer duties. In the Pentagon, tours are led by E-1 to E-4 HG members. I doubt will find enough of that type of work for most CAP members to indulge their vanity that way.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 06, 2008, 04:56:27 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 11:32:32 PM
And.. to continue bashing...
I don't blame the Air Force. THEY are not confused by rank.
I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.
Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.
Nice idea, but it won't work.
I suspect your job has heavy restrictions: they're not going to take any fat or fuzzy troops, or those that can't pass themselves off as real officers and talk their way through the museum.
As to the AF - OF COURSE they're going to be confused by the grade. They're trained to salute those in military uniform wearing officer grade and unless they're briefed on who and what CAP is, that's just what they're going to do. Even in the case of our current VSAF member, who has a job of more importance than average, he's not doing officer work.
Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done. They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.
Museum work is a good job for "Potemkin officers," as it involves looking like an officer without officer duties. In the Pentagon, tours are led by E-1 to E-4 HG members. I doubt will find enough of that type of work for most CAP members to indulge their vanity that way.
First off, the museum program is ongoing and has been operational for more than a year without problems. The only glitch was that some active duty AF officers questioned why CAP officers were wearing "Outdated" insignia. (Plastic-encased metal rank and leather name badges on the flight suit.) This was resolved expeditiously.
Second, AF guys are clearly clued in that CAP rank is awarded as a courtesy, not as a matter of having a Presidential commission. There may be some confusion if there is interaction with other service branches, but the AF guys fully understand CAP's role in the overall scheme of things rank-related.
Third, and this is important, the only assignment consideration should be that the duty should not be inconsistent with officer rank. This is probably a no-brainer, since you will not get people to volunteer for menial tasks like policing the area. There are many jobs that do not involve command or supervisory authority over AF personnel. Planning exercises, like the guy who started this post, is one. Public Affairs is another. Admin jobs, jobs in logistics and contracting, assisting in flight planning, etc.
Fourth, how do you get airmen, NCO's and officers to get fired up about joining CAP after their term of service if you dress your people like retail sales associates? The VSAF program could be an important recruiting tool if managed properly, especially with respect to those AF folks retiring from active duty. It would give them a chance to continue serving, continue valuable personal contacts and comradery, and continue a military connection with the Air Force. Frankly, here on the Space Coast we recruit a LOT of military retirees. But we dress them in the Air Force uniform.
And... The Air Force welcomes the chubby and hirsuite. As far as "Talking your way through the museum," that IS the job, after all. If you are not good at public speaking you probably won't want to volunteer for the mission. But if you are good at speaking, we have a 4-month training program to bring you up to speed on the exhibits.
We are pretty proud of the program we put together, and it works well. We had it before NHQ came up with their program, and we developed it at the request of the Air Force.
Edit.
Well, yes. You probably are off base, if I could understand the point you are trying to make.
To the extent that I THINK I understand your point, I offer the following in rebuttal:
1. CAP is a military auxiliary. To try to distort it into a parody of a corporation diminishes the heritage of our organization, distances us farther from the parent organization, and does a dis-service to those who served in combat as members of our organization.
2. Those who endeavor to create this corporate mindset only do so because they lack any connection to the military. They have never served on active duty, their "Officer training" comes from Hollywood, and they do not understand the bonds of comradery that are shared among military people. Therefore, they try to re-create the organization in the image of that which they understand. Rather than seek training and experience to bring their military skills and attitudes into line with the parent organization, they seek to divorce us (or at least legally separate us) from the Air Force, and create a silly uniformed corporation. The consequences of this attitude are far-reaching and they are not good.
3. A uniform that looks like a retail sales associate is not a "Perfectly acceptable uniform."
Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 06, 2008, 04:56:27 AM
Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done. They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.
How is that a JAG nightmare? Also, Civilians lead and direct Officers all the time. We do have a civilian workforce in the military. Some of those people are even Senior Raters for General Officers.
I just don't think anyone would be so confused by a CAP Officer that they could not follow his or her directions. However if they are easily confused in the AF, boy am I glad I joined the Army, cause my life my depend on someone that is not so confused.
I agree. There are many officer staff billets that do not involve subordinates, and even if a VSAF-er is doing a civilian or EM job, who cares? The office staff will know what is going on, and outsiders won't be involved. Regarding deletion of rank, it's not like we added officer rank to CAP in the 1980's. It has been with the org since its inception and is part of the heritage and history of our organization. It may need to be changed, but should not be deleted.
People aren't stupid. Granted, EM's or junior officers may err on the side of caution and throw a salute to a VSAF CAP officer, but that would be no different from our normal visits to base... all you do is return it and move on.
There are hundreds of foreign military officers serving at posts on American bases... some are in exchange programs and may give orders, others observe, or are training here. As officers, they are granted all customs and courtesies thereof, but no one has to worry about airmen running up to them asking for orders. Some of those uniforms are really different than the AF... but some of them are very similar.
Lets suppose you are working VSAF in the USAF uniform, and have a red-cheeked Airman, fresh from Lackland... he asks you something, and you say "I'm sorry Airman X, you need to talk to Major Y about that." CRAP! That was hard. He knows who the man is, the Major gets the question, and no one had to stage an inquisition. The same thing would happen if an airman looked for orders from an active duty AF chaplain Major, etc. It's called training. All it would take is a mandatory short training course to make sure your volunteer knows how to handle that situation in the unlikely chance it occurs, like CPPT.
Even a slow Airman will see blue name tapes or grey shoulder boards and deduce that we are different in some way from the normal AF guys with sage tapes or blue boards.
I know that the gentlemans experience shown here is isolated to his base, but I think that eventually all VSAF will be wearing the UOD in our normal AF style uniforms with full insig and rank. Hell, those guys may end up being the first to wear the ABU. It'll take time for everyone to get used to it, and for the admin to realize that the VSAF uniform will not be suitable for all taskings, as we have already seen here. But I think it will happen.
Quote from: Timothy on March 06, 2008, 05:27:46 PMGranted, EM's or junior officers may err on the side of caution and throw a salute to a VSAF CAP officer, but that would be no different from our normal visits to base... all you do is return it and move on.
Just a minor nitpick on an otherwise good post . . .
It is not an "error" for any member of the armed forces to salute a CAP officer.
It is not a violation of any regulation, rule, or order for them to do so.
And it is never wrong to display a little courtesy to anyone you might bump into in this life.
Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy
Ned,
Very true. What I meant to convey was that they would be doing it because they would think it required as an AD officer, as opposed to a curtousy to an Aux service. It wuldnt be wrong, just optional. :) As I said in some different posts, as a ROTC cadet we got saluted on base often. If you arent expecting it, its a plus and is an instant reminder of who and where you are at that given time.
I do WWII awareness on occasion, and while in orig enlisted Army or Navy uniforms I always go out of my way to salute officers that happen to be attending... keeps the guys in WWII officers uiforms on their toes, and never fails to impress the current military AD types... in my book, an officer is an officer.
Tim Good Post!
I agree with what you wrote.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 01:27:27 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on March 05, 2008, 05:57:45 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 02:52:37 AM
Well, I guess this is a personal problem.
I soldiered for my rank. I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS. I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.
My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!
Airborne! Kach. As I said before, we're seeing what USAF really thinks of us. Kinda sad, but not unexpected.
GC
Gunner:
Actually, I think we are seeing what our OWN leaders think of us. The Air Force here at Patrick wants us to wear the Uniform of the Day, BDU or flight suit... WITH RANK!
We deal with the public augmenting the PA office by giving tours of the USAF Missile Museum (which is on a secure base, access is only by organized tours) and the Air Force has no interest in us dressing to look like retail sales associates.
It may be that big AF wants it that way with big CAP (NHQ) willing to do whatever it takes, make any deal, to get us a new mission (actually, it's not a mission, it's more of a program).
Probably a combination of AF wanting augmentees but not wanting (in their eyes) pseudo-officers walking around screwing things up; and CAP willing to roll over for just about any reason; and CAP not willing to have high enough standards (read: hardly any) for their members to become officers.
It's a mess.
GC
(BTW, retail associates - that's a good one! We look like we work at the GAP)
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 06, 2008, 03:30:15 PM
Well, yes. You probably are off base, if I could understand the point you are trying to make.
To the extent that I THINK I understand your point, I offer the following in rebuttal:
1. CAP is a military auxiliary. To try to distort it into a parody of a corporation diminishes the heritage of our organization, distances us farther from the parent organization, and does a dis-service to those who served in combat as members of our organization.
2. Those who endeavor to create this corporate mindset only do so because they lack any connection to the military. They have never served on active duty, their "Officer training" comes from Hollywood, and they do not understand the bonds of comradery that are shared among military people. Therefore, they try to re-create the organization in the image of that which they understand. Rather than seek training and experience to bring their military skills and attitudes into line with the parent organization, they seek to divorce us (or at least legally separate us) from the Air Force, and create a silly uniformed corporation. The consequences of this attitude are far-reaching and they are not good.
3. A uniform that looks like a retail sales associate is not a "Perfectly acceptable uniform."
Couple of points.
Do you really believe our Corporate Overlords have more power then the US Air Force in the organization and status of CAP? If the AF decided tomorrow to restore our full time Aux status, do you think that NHQ could stop them?
This leads me to believe that the USAF is happy with our current set up.
This leads to another question.
Do you want us to be closer to the AF because it's the best for the Air Force, or because it's the best for some fraction of CAP members?
If the AF wanted us to have full time status, I'd think we'd have it. If the Air Force wanted us to have a more military program, I'd think we'd have it.
The fact is, if we established a more 'military' adult program, we would loss pilots and other ES types.
So what's more useful to the Nation, State, and Community? CAP members who look and talk more like Air Force guys and can give killer tours? Or pilots for our planes and crewmen for our Ground Teams?
There's no reason why we can't improve the program the way we are now. More professional training, more commanders willing to enforce current regulations.
Uniforms, rank, the difference between "USAFAux" and "CAP," they all really have nothing to do with any problems we may have.
^ Seriously, if we were to lose pilots because we became more "Air Forcy", I hate to say it but those are the types we don't want in CAP. And frankly speaking any loss could most likely be made up within a three year time period. Perhaps now is the time to get rid of everyone who wants the no military aspect of CAP.
The military model works, and it works well. That is why so many headhunters will specifically find prior-service Officers and Senior NCO's to recruit directly into upper management.
Finally, JTHemann...... the CAP Corporates were able a few years back to gain more power from the AF. They were the ones who lobbied for the National Commander to be a CAP Officer, they are also the ones who pushed for AUX only on missions. Make no mistake, the AF let CAP slip from it's hands, but it was really the Corporate Bigwigs who pushed.
I do understand CAP is a Corporation first. I just wish it were not.
What is it about the military aspect and the Air Force that some folks do not like??
What is it, for some , to want to distance CAP from the military?? I am really at a loss considering our roots that go back to the AAF and defending the nation.
I'd love to hear from those of you who are anti AF, anti-military and your reasons for wanting to be more corporate or want a complete divorce from the AF.
Quote from: JThemann on March 07, 2008, 12:16:40 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 06, 2008, 03:30:15 PM
Well, yes. You probably are off base, if I could understand the point you are trying to make.
To the extent that I THINK I understand your point, I offer the following in rebuttal:
1. CAP is a military auxiliary. To try to distort it into a parody of a corporation diminishes the heritage of our organization, distances us farther from the parent organization, and does a dis-service to those who served in combat as members of our organization.
2. Those who endeavor to create this corporate mindset only do so because they lack any connection to the military. They have never served on active duty, their "Officer training" comes from Hollywood, and they do not understand the bonds of comradery that are shared among military people. Therefore, they try to re-create the organization in the image of that which they understand. Rather than seek training and experience to bring their military skills and attitudes into line with the parent organization, they seek to divorce us (or at least legally separate us) from the Air Force, and create a silly uniformed corporation. The consequences of this attitude are far-reaching and they are not good.
3. A uniform that looks like a retail sales associate is not a "Perfectly acceptable uniform."
Couple of points.
Do you really believe our Corporate Overlords have more power then the US Air Force in the organization and status of CAP? If the AF decided tomorrow to restore our full time Aux status, do you think that NHQ could stop them?
This leads me to believe that the USAF is happy with our current set up.
This leads to another question.
Do you want us to be closer to the AF because it's the best for the Air Force, or because it's the best for some fraction of CAP members?
If the AF wanted us to have full time status, I'd think we'd have it. If the Air Force wanted us to have a more military program, I'd think we'd have it.
The fact is, if we established a more 'military' adult program, we would loss pilots and other ES types.
So what's more useful to the Nation, State, and Community? CAP members who look and talk more like Air Force guys and can give killer tours? Or pilots for our planes and crewmen for our Ground Teams?
There's no reason why we can't improve the program the way we are now. More professional training, more commanders willing to enforce current regulations.
Uniforms, rank, the difference between "USAFAux" and "CAP," they all really have nothing to do with any problems we may have.
I suggest you PM DNall on this. He can fill you in on the "End run" that the NHQ corporate types did back in the 1990's.
OK... first I did not mean to get embroiled in an AuxOn AuxOff war.
Um couple of questions:
- first: is it established fact that VSAF types will not have supervisory duties over anybody - civilian/officer/enlisted - OR is this an assumption?
- Doesnt matter to me, Im just curious.
- Second: Kach Im curious as to what exactly your tour uniform does look like - Im guessing an AD Flightsuit with your last name. ??
Third- whether or not we wear the uniform from USAF, NHQ or MACYS does anyone have any idea as to the trial period for VSAF? AE - when it might expand to other bases and CAP Wings?
Third and a half: any idea as far as what other sorts of jobs we might do?
Forth: what office would we actually be working for? Is VSAF something done through the base contracting office? Through a CAPRAP or SD type? -- I understand that Group /CCs have oversight as to the pipeline, my question is: "who decides who works where"
-- for example: I could definately function in a USAF clinic or USAF FireDept
(but i know thats a long shot). I could maybe function in PA but Major X wants that job so am I going to be assigned to Job Z instead ... ?
Fifth:
What is the procedure that you go through from the time you vollunteer to the time you are assigned to a job? (and are you actually assigned to a 'job' or to a 'unit' ? )
Read back to group's comments. That is the only "hard" data we have on how VSAF is working in practice. Remember, it is a test program and the way they are doing things may or may not be how it is handled when the program goes prime time, if it does.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 06, 2008, 04:19:57 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on March 06, 2008, 04:56:27 AM
Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done. They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.
How is that a JAG nightmare? Also, Civilians lead and direct Officers all the time. We do have a civilian workforce in the military. Some of those people are even Senior Raters for General Officers.
I just don't think anyone would be so confused by a CAP Officer that they could not follow his or her directions. However if they are easily confused in the AF, boy am I glad I joined the Army, cause my life my depend on someone that is not so confused.
The JAG nightmare is that we are not, by regulation USAF officers, nor, by regulation USAF civilians. Neither fish nor fowl.
Personally, I think clarifying our status as USAF civilians when on duty would be very helpful. It would ALLOW us to supervise (or be supervised by) USAF military when directed by USAF leadership IAW USAF regs. It would make it clear that UCMJ do not apply to us, but that USAF regs do. And it would eliminate the whole "I'm an officer!" "No you're not!" issue. We could wear some USAF uniforms (just like deployed USAF civilians do, regardless of weight or grooming).
We'd fit a heck of a lot better into the USAF pecking order - it would be obvious that we were neither subordinate to, nor superior to, USAF officers. It would all be based on position - just like authority in CAP is anyway.
I understand that CAP officers are proud of their grade, and that they earned it. But to the average USAF guy, frankly, our standards are so low as to be meaningless. To them, we didn't really earn those oak leaves. It may hurt emotionally, but it's a valid point of view.
As long as we work seperately, this never comes up. They never see us and we never see them. But when we work together.....it becomes obvious that we don't mean the same thing by "officer" as they do.
And on base it's their basement - their rules.
(Please note that if this ever came to pass, I'd have to remove the oak leaves Congress gave me. But that's cool - in CAP I'm not really acting in that capacity. I don't need 'em.)
Actually, Air Force Instructions do give a great deal of clarity with regard to the role of CAP personnel in Air Force operations. It is not necessary to classify us as civil servants in order to not confuse the JAG folks.
Included in the AFI's is a statement to the effect that CAP rank is awarded as a courtesy, and that CAP officers have no command authority over AF personnel as a result of that rank. It also specifies that we are not subject to the UCMJ.
There is, however, no restriction against locally-initiated "Referred Authority," and if that were the case, then CAP personnel could supervise USAF personnel regardless of rank.
Example:
"I am Lt. Col. Jones, USAF. I am the commander of the 449th Underground Balloon Squadron. We need a new basket to be woven out of bamboo reeds. You three Airmen are designated to accomplish this weaving. CAP Captain Smith, who is augmenting our squadron, will be in charge and will report completion to me. Have a nice day."
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 02:54:57 PM
..... I am the commander of the 449th Underground Balloon Squadron.
I heard about those Underground Balloon Squadrons. I think you have to take underwater basket weaving to be assigned to them :D
Seriously, there is no "JAG nightmare" and as Kach already pointed out, we already have the written guidelines on how we and the AF will act and get along.
However, Airman Snuffy fresh from basic (and who was a CAP cadet previously to joining USAF), knows what CAP is all about, and knows that CAP is not the military may decide he will not work together with anyone involved with VSAF, because he is NOW the military guy. That is something that may come up before we ever get into Who reports to whom.
We are all blowing this out of proportion, myself included. VASF should be a program that supports Reserve and Guard bases first, AD bases second. That is my only huge issue with this roll-out. We can do much more for the personnel on a Reserve base (and our local community) than we can for an AFB that already has functions set-up to support units who lost men and women due to deployments. Face it, this war we have now is being waged primarily by Reserve and Guard forces and AD forces second. No time in our history has the Reserves been deployed more than their Active Duty Counterparts. But I way digress here.
If Airman Snuffy cannot accept the leadership offered by a CAP officer, his problem is with the USAF officer who directed him to do so.
The VSAF program could work just fine if NHQ would step out and not micromanage what should be a CAP-Base Commander interface.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 03:48:19 PM
Seriously, there is no "JAG nightmare" and as Kach already pointed out, we already have the written guidelines on how we and the AF will act and get along.
Actually those guidelines merely discuss how we DON'T get along. There are no guidelines in place on how our members SHOULD interact. It would be nice to have some. More clarification on how we would fall under USAF regs when working right alongside them.
But back to the grade issue - at the very least it's confusing.
All it takes is one Airman caught doing something wrong that he believes he was ordered to do by a CAP officer, or by following the example of a CAP officer who isn't subject to UCMJ in the first place. And yeah, that will happen. Saying "You should have known that CAP Captain has no authority, Airman - go directly to jail" ain't gonna cut it.
Our functions in VSAF are not going to mirror the USAF grade equivalents -they will be based on talent and need. They aren't going to give a guy a Lt Col job because he's a CAP Lt Col. They MAY give a Lt Col job to a guy whose real life experience and talents suit him for it, even if he's a CAP Tech Sergeant. And they MAY give a guy an Airmen First Class job in spite of his CAP Lt Col grade - because that's where his talents fit in.
So now you've got a Tech Sergeant in a room full of field grades and a CAP Lt Col being supervised by a Sergeant. Weird. In the military, as many here know, rank means something. They don't take kindly to folks taking it lightly. And from a USAF viewpoint, we do exactly that.
Yeah, we could just educate all USAF personnel on the base that "hey, feel free to ignore these CAP guys - they're not real officers." But isn't it easier to just acknowledge that our grade means nothing to USAF operations, and therefore doesn't need to be present when working with USAF?
I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.
AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy. A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.
And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks.
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Man Major, I just can not find anything to contest in your posts.
Something no one has brought up yet, what about those Real Military Officers, that are also CAP members that would love to volunteer once a week at the base? I thought about this for a while, and have decided that if the program ever did make it my way, I would have to decline. As an Officer, I could not be seen taking any type of guidance or orders from an Airman, or even for that matter another Officer junior to my rank when I have whatever CAP uniform on. I am not saying anything about enlisted people here, I am just bringing up the point that it would "Not appear correct".
I also believe there is some stipulation in the military codes that say you have to have your immediate supervisors (an Officer) permission to work a second job on the side. Working VSAF (although voluntary, non-paid) is still the same as a second job. I am forwarning those in the military, this may be the area that JAG needs to check out.
Note: I would love to do VSAF today. I would absolutely be the first person at the Family Readiness group handing out papers, or helping spouses with deployment problems (I think my knowledge on deployments and being in the military to begin with) would make me a perfect fit. We shall see.
mikey, how is volunteering in the VSAF program any different than volunteering in CAP in general? VSAF is CAP duty. If you promise to show up at a CAP SAREX that isn't any different than promising to show up at some VSAF duty.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 05:36:56 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Man Major, I just can not find anything to contest in your posts.
Something no one has brought up yet, what about those Real Military Officers, that are also CAP members that would love to volunteer once a week at the base? I thought about this for a while, and have decided that if the program ever did make it my way, I would have to decline. As an Officer, I could not be seen taking any type of guidance or orders from an Airman, or even for that matter another Officer junior to my rank when I have whatever CAP uniform on. I am not saying anything about enlisted people here, I am just bringing up the point that it would "Not appear correct".
I also believe there is some stipulation in the military codes that say you have to have your immediate supervisors (an Officer) permission to work a second job on the side. Working VSAF (although voluntary, non-paid) is still the same as a second job. I am forwarning those in the military, this may be the area that JAG needs to check out.
Note: I would love to do VSAF today. I would absolutely be the first person at the Family Readiness group handing out papers, or helping spouses with deployment problems (I think my knowledge on deployments and being in the military to begin with) would make me a perfect fit. We shall see.
Different opinion here (as you may have guessed). I've got no problem leaving my Real Military officer rank at the door and taking direction from an airman. It's about the getting the job done, not stroking my sense of self-worth.
If I'm gonna help, I'll help the way they NEED the help - not in the way that makes me feel good.
And while I ain't thrilled about having a special VSAF uniform, the golf shirt would have worked just fine.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 07, 2008, 06:19:22 PM
mikey, how is volunteering in the VSAF program any different than volunteering in CAP in general? VSAF is CAP duty. If you promise to show up at a CAP SAREX that isn't any different than promising to show up at some VSAF duty.
VSAF can be considered a second job, as you are working for the AF. CAP is considered a hobby, as you are working for a non-profit and there are no military Officers in military uniform directing your actions (for the most part, everyone in CAP, even if in the military is still "in CAP" when volunteering for CAP).
I don't wear my Army Uniform when doing CAP missions, and those that are leading the organization are in CAP uniform. With VSAF, I may be wearing a CAP uniform, but am working with people that I may one day have to say "do this, do that, its an order".
It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me. This is not about ego's or being better than others. It comes down to good order and discipline.
I am no way saying I am better than anyone, just that it could cause issues down the road. I don't want to put that Ariman in a difficult situation. He would know I am an Officer in my "day job" but does he call me Mike or Sir when working together on VSAF matters? Does he second guess his actions when I am around? Are there going to be any type of evaluations of the work I am doing, is it propper for him or her to write evaluations of Officers? Again, not about me, but about the Ariman.
Like I said before, I would love to volunteer when this goes AF wide (to include Guard and reserves). However for my part, the options may be more limited than for an ordinary CAP member who is also not an Officer.
A charge of Fraternization can come on duty or off duty, through my own fault, or through the fault of others, but ultimately I am to blame because I was the Senior, and should know better. I take that very seriously, as I have watched charges brought against an Officer for playing competitive sports off duty and grabbing a beer with the team. Long story short, others believed the Officer was promoting his team-mates ahead of others more qualified.
I may be blowing this WAY out of proportion, but just wanted to bring it up as it has yet to be discussed. I will gladly accept that nothing even close to what I have written will ever happen, just wanted to get it out there.
Dragoon I dont know if you are retired or still "in" but I think Mikeys point is that there may be a reg against a currently serving officer serving under an Airman. Regardless of the uniform being worn at the time (CAP vs Army)
At the most basic level it could be argued because Mikey as an officer is "always on duty" and doesnt stop being an officer just because he removes his greens to put on blues. Someone could recognize him and impropriety could result.
Ned Lee Report to the Forum... as a Legal Beagle type could you please see what you could turn up vis a vis this conundrum?
Mikey: two things... 1) why can't he just call you " Mr. " both times :)
Second: Im not sure how many bases there are in your area but could you either do your VSAF bit on a base you arent going to be associated with?
( AF Guard or Res vs AD) OR could you get into a role supervising the VSAF program? A role where you would oversight the CAP folks and liason with the AF folks?
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 06:51:06 PM
It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me. This is not about ego's or being better than others. It comes down to good order and discipline.
How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO? The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do. Or is that 'strongly suggesting'? I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing? I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.
QuoteVSAF can be considered a second job, as you are working for the AF. CAP is considered a hobby, as you are working for a non-profit and there are no military Officers in military uniform directing your actions (for the most part, everyone in CAP, even if in the military is still "in CAP" when volunteering for CAP).
Actually, you are still a volunteer no matter what you're doing in CAP. When we're on an AFAM we're just as much "working for" the AF as a member would be in the VSAF program.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 07, 2008, 07:06:06 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 06:51:06 PM
It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me. This is not about ego's or being better than others. It comes down to good order and discipline.
How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO? The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do. Or is that 'strongly suggesting'? I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing? I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.
It works the same as the example I gave about the CAP guy working to augment the Underground Balloon Squadron. The NCO gets his authority to direct range operations from the Commander. An "Order" from the NCO is an "Order" from the Commander. Just out of a different mouth.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 07, 2008, 07:06:06 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 06:51:06 PM
It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me. This is not about ego's or being better than others. It comes down to good order and discipline.
How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO? The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do. Or is that 'strongly suggesting'? I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing? I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.
Everytime I qualified on weapons and there was an NCO, it was always, "Morning Sir, may I see your orders Sir, you weapon is here, my safety briefing will be in 5 minutes". I am neither working directly for the NCO, nor am I placed in his chain of Command.
From looking inside out at the military establishment, it may appear that Officers may be working for NCO's in some places, but it is never the case. Both the Officer and NCO know the relationship between themselves, and the NCO respects that. In the VSAF program I could be "ordered by the AF" to work for NCO. That is totally improper as an Officer and NCO are always Officers and NCO's both on duty and off duty. It would not matter if I wear a pink T-shirt and short shorts, I am still an Officer. It would inappropriate to ask the NCO to be my boss.
I may not be explaining well enough, and I apologize for that. My limited understanding of the VSAF program so far could have something to do with it.
I would think that after a month after the "official" presentation and initiation at Wright-Patt by CAP and the AF, we would have lots more details. Guess that was wishfull thinking.
I would like to know what other jobs VSAF'ers are doing, what the AF thinks about the program so far and what if any problems are being worked out.
I would have also thought NHQ would be making more of a deal out of VSAF then they really are. This may be the future "huge" program between CAP and the AF.
QuoteI would think that after a month after the "official" presentation and initiation at Wright-Patt by CAP and the AF, we would have lots more details. Guess that was wishfull thinking.
It has barely got started, so why would there be more details this fast? I would not be surprised if the test period went for 6 months to a year before any final decisions on whether to go national with it are made.
Patience, grasshopper.
Correct again River. I am so anticipatory of any news, I can't help it. :'(
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 08:08:00 PM
...It would not matter if I wear a pink T-shirt and short shorts, I am still an Officer...
...at least until someone caught you >:D
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 07, 2008, 07:06:06 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 07, 2008, 06:51:06 PM
It would not be appropriate for me to take directions from an Airman, who the following week may be taking directions from me. This is not about ego's or being better than others. It comes down to good order and discipline.
How does the Army maintain 'Good order and discipline' when an officer goes down to the range for a requal and the instructor is an NCO? The NCO is 'ordering' the officer what to do. Or is that 'strongly suggesting'? I'm not trying to be crass, but isn't that the same type of thing? I may not completely understand that relationship or may be mis-interpreting it.
What happens on the range
stays on the range. Sorry, force of habit.
What's happening on the range is the NCO has been given written orders from the SecAF and CSAF in the form of AFI's. His duties include ensuring the safe operation of the range by following the regs. He can tell the officer what to do because he is essentially relaying the orders of the SecAF/CSAF. Outside of regulations, however, the officer still has authority.
Officers doing volunteer VSAF duty, as long as they are working outside their rating chain, are probably OK if they don't make a big deal about it.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.
AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy. A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.
And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks.
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 07:04:17 PM
Dragoon I dont know if you are retired or still "in" but I think Mikeys point is that there may be a reg against a currently serving officer serving under an Airman. Regardless of the uniform being worn at the time (CAP vs Army)
At the most basic level it could be argued because Mikey as an officer is "always on duty" and doesnt stop being an officer just because he removes his greens to put on blues. Someone could recognize him and impropriety could result.
Ned Lee Report to the Forum... as a Legal Beagle type could you please see what you could turn up vis a vis this conundrum?
Mikey: two things... 1) why can't he just call you " Mr. " both times :)
Second: Im not sure how many bases there are in your area but could you either do your VSAF bit on a base you arent going to be associated with?
( AF Guard or Res vs AD) OR could you get into a role supervising the VSAF program? A role where you would oversight the CAP folks and liason with the AF folks?
Still in. 22+ years. Not aware of a single problem. As a CAP member I have taken direction from NCOs on several occasions. That's because they were the guy with the mission, and I was the guy that agreed to help out, not visa versa. If we get to BSing, I might let slip about my day job, but otherwise it doesn't need to come up.
As an officer, I may have the option of giving orders to an airmen - but there's no problem with me following that airman's lead either. Unless of course, I see him doing something against UCMJ. If so, I'd have to whip out the old ID card and tell him to knock it off. That's the inherent responsibility that I can't ever turn off.
As a retired guy (which I hope to be within the next 5 years or so), it's even less of an issue. I'll know my status - it doesn't really matter if anyone else does.
I've seen similar things happen in lots of volunteer groups near post where the group leader is a military subordinate to some of the group members. Not a big deal. We all know who's in charge when we go back to our day jobs.
Quote from: JThemann on March 07, 2008, 09:15:07 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.
AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy. A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.
And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks.
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."
You dismiss tradition as if it is unimportant. Tradition is important to real military guys. About half of what the military does and says is a result of tradition.
The Old Guard in Washington DC? They are called the "Old Guard" because of a comment made by General Winfield Scott in the Mexican War. A comment made by a German officer about the American Marines at Bellaux Wood earned them the nickname "Devil Dogs" forever.
The uniform of cadets at USMA? Designed by Winfield Scott for his troops at the Battle of Chippewa. Adopted by USMA to honor the commitment to training that resulted in a British defeat.
Our rank insignia differs from the British because it was designed by General von Steuben, and was based on formations of the Roman Army. The ancient Roman Army's influence was such that Anthony Wayne's force to oust the British from the Northwest Territories was called "The Legion of the United States."
The tradition of officers eating last, after all of the troops have been fed, began with George Washington at Valley Forge. British officers dined in style regardless of the rations available to their troops. Washington changed that, and in the 232 years since then, nobody has seen a need to change it back.
Rather than the rhetorical question you posed, the question should be: "Why is it necessary to reverse 67 years of the tradition of CAP officers wearing the uniform of the US Air Force, including the courtesy rank that has been earned through service as a volunteer?"
While tradition has value, it needs to be measured against current needs. Otherwise we'd still carry sabres and ride horses. And keep slaves. And other stuff that deserves to be changed.
The question is a valid one - what value does CAP grade bring to VSAF operations? Does it help us do the job better? Does the lack of it impede the mission?
Only with a full list of pros and cons can a rational decision be made. "The way we've always done things".....may be the wrong way.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 10:27:33 PM
Quote from: JThemann on March 07, 2008, 09:15:07 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.
AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy. A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.
And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks.
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."
You dismiss tradition as if it is unimportant. Tradition is important to real military guys. About half of what the military does and says is a result of tradition.
The Old Guard in Washington DC? They are called the "Old Guard" because of a comment made by General Winfield Scott in the Mexican War. A comment made by a German officer about the American Marines at Bellaux Wood earned them the nickname "Devil Dogs" forever.
The uniform of cadets at USMA? Designed by Winfield Scott for his troops at the Battle of Chippewa. Adopted by USMA to honor the commitment to training that resulted in a British defeat.
Our rank insignia differs from the British because it was designed by General von Steuben, and was based on formations of the Roman Army. The ancient Roman Army's influence was such that Anthony Wayne's force to oust the British from the Northwest Territories was called "The Legion of the United States."
The tradition of officers eating last, after all of the troops have been fed, began with George Washington at Valley Forge. British officers dined in style regardless of the rations available to their troops. Washington changed that, and in the 232 years since then, nobody has seen a need to change it back.
Rather than the rhetorical question you posed, the question should be: "Why is it necessary to reverse 67 years of the tradition of CAP officers wearing the uniform of the US Air Force, including the courtesy rank that has been earned through service as a volunteer?"
Believe me, I'm as much a stickler for tradition as the next guy.
But if the USAF and CAP NHQ got together and decided that we shouldn't wear military/corporate style uniforms for this program, then isn't the ten thousand plus year tradition of soldiers taking orders and carrying them our more important?
You keep refering to CAP grade as 'courtesy rank.' If I recall correctly, you earned your oak leaves through military service, correct? I completely understand that you are attached to them.
But when serving as a CAP member, and CAP member is just that: A CAP member. Thus, he's wearing his rank within the organization. So I don't really see how you can be so attached to your CAP rank, since it's a courtrsy, if the Powers That Be decide that you could work more effectively through VSAF by not being in a military style uniform.
Now, you're unque in that you are already partcipating in an augmenting mission, with the museum tours, in the green bag with rank insignia. While local commanders may not have a problem with that, if the Air Force PTB decide to change that, doesn't the local commander have to listern?
I do believe that augmenting the regular Air Force does have useful applications for both CAP and the USAF. However, in my experience with another cadet squadron augmenting the local ANG Wing, what happens sometimes is that the local CAP squadron takes over, and doesn't let any other CAP types play with the ANG guys. Thus, while the local USAF commander and the local CAP commander might have a good relationship, that relationship doesn't extent to far beyond that.
So, I do believe that augmenting must be a USAF/CAP wide activity, with national directives from both chains of command. And if that unified chain of command says that volunteers for the program must wear XYZ, then we can either not volunteer, or wear XYZ.
With that being said, I think the best choice for CAP members would be the local UOD with some sort of CAP device. However, if I recall from the orginal annoucement, VSAF wasn't intended solely for CAP members. It's also intended for non CAP members to join CAP to work with the Air Force. So, sticking them in a CAP uniform might not be the best choice.
Quote from: Dragoon on March 07, 2008, 11:04:10 PM
While tradition has value, it needs to be measured against current needs. Otherwise we'd still carry sabres and ride horses. And keep slaves. And other stuff that deserves to be changed.
The question is a valid one - what value does CAP grade bring to VSAF operations? Does it help us do the job better? Does the lack of it impede the mission?
Only with a full list of pros and cons can a rational decision be made. "The way we've always done things".....may be the wrong way.
You say the question (posed by Themann) is valid, yet you pose the same question I did in a different way.
You ask if the value of tradition is outweighed by current needs. That is exactly what I suggested that the proper question should be.
Why is it necessary to scrap tradition for this program? What "Current need" is served by scrapping more than 6 decades of tradition?
If your "Current need" is to avoid confusing airmen, I think you are woefully underestimating airmen.
Quote from: JThemann on March 07, 2008, 11:41:12 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 10:27:33 PM
Quote from: JThemann on March 07, 2008, 09:15:07 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 07, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
I non-concur with your assessment that rank on CAP personnel is confusing to AF personnel.
AF personnel all need at least a HS diploma, so I think they can understand that CAP rank is a courtesy. A courtesy that goes back to before their parents were born, but a courtesy nonetheless.
And CAP members in the program need to be instructed that, unless they are specifically detailed to supervise some aspect of the mission by AF personnel, they cannot supervise AF folks.
I do not see it as a problem. It is certainly not as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
And it is not enough of a problem that we should have to dress in a retail sales associate uniform.
Major, can you give us a few reasons why CAP members absolutely need to be wearing rank insignia for VSAF duty? Because so far the only reasons I've seen from you are "IT'S TRADITION!" and "I earned mine on active duty."
You dismiss tradition as if it is unimportant. Tradition is important to real military guys. About half of what the military does and says is a result of tradition.
The Old Guard in Washington DC? They are called the "Old Guard" because of a comment made by General Winfield Scott in the Mexican War. A comment made by a German officer about the American Marines at Bellaux Wood earned them the nickname "Devil Dogs" forever.
The uniform of cadets at USMA? Designed by Winfield Scott for his troops at the Battle of Chippewa. Adopted by USMA to honor the commitment to training that resulted in a British defeat.
Our rank insignia differs from the British because it was designed by General von Steuben, and was based on formations of the Roman Army. The ancient Roman Army's influence was such that Anthony Wayne's force to oust the British from the Northwest Territories was called "The Legion of the United States."
The tradition of officers eating last, after all of the troops have been fed, began with George Washington at Valley Forge. British officers dined in style regardless of the rations available to their troops. Washington changed that, and in the 232 years since then, nobody has seen a need to change it back.
Rather than the rhetorical question you posed, the question should be: "Why is it necessary to reverse 67 years of the tradition of CAP officers wearing the uniform of the US Air Force, including the courtesy rank that has been earned through service as a volunteer?"
Believe me, I'm as much a stickler for tradition as the next guy.
But if the USAF and CAP NHQ got together and decided that we shouldn't wear military/corporate style uniforms for this program, then isn't the ten thousand plus year tradition of soldiers taking orders and carrying them our more important?
You keep refering to CAP grade as 'courtesy rank.' If I recall correctly, you earned your oak leaves through military service, correct? I completely understand that you are attached to them.
But when serving as a CAP member, and CAP member is just that: A CAP member. Thus, he's wearing his rank within the organization. So I don't really see how you can be so attached to your CAP rank, since it's a courtrsy, if the Powers That Be decide that you could work more effectively through VSAF by not being in a military style uniform.
Now, you're unque in that you are already partcipating in an augmenting mission, with the museum tours, in the green bag with rank insignia. While local commanders may not have a problem with that, if the Air Force PTB decide to change that, doesn't the local commander have to listern?
I do believe that augmenting the regular Air Force does have useful applications for both CAP and the USAF. However, in my experience with another cadet squadron augmenting the local ANG Wing, what happens sometimes is that the local CAP squadron takes over, and doesn't let any other CAP types play with the ANG guys. Thus, while the local USAF commander and the local CAP commander might have a good relationship, that relationship doesn't extent to far beyond that.
So, I do believe that augmenting must be a USAF/CAP wide activity, with national directives from both chains of command. And if that unified chain of command says that volunteers for the program must wear XYZ, then we can either not volunteer, or wear XYZ.
With that being said, I think the best choice for CAP members would be the local UOD with some sort of CAP device. However, if I recall from the orginal annoucement, VSAF wasn't intended solely for CAP members. It's also intended for non CAP members to join CAP to work with the Air Force. So, sticking them in a CAP uniform might not be the best choice.
Lets separate two issues. As I said, the fact that I earned my rank the hard way is a personal issue, and the fact that CAP would require me to dress in a ridiculous-looking retail sales associate uniform rather than the uniform of my country is sufficient for me to take a pass on this mission. That, however, is a personal issue. Your mileage may vary.
The other point I was making, is that I think the decision to scrap the traditional uniform is wrong-headed for several reasons, not the least of which is that we have, for six decades, served the United States in the uniform of the Air Force. So, why, when providing direct support to the Air Force, do we scrap the tradition?
You challenged me to cite a reason making it necessary to wear the traditional uniform on VSAF missions. I told you that the long tradition alone was enough reason, unless there was an over-riding reason to find a different way. The very remote possibility of some clueless airman somewhere becoming confused does not seem to me to be an over-riding reason.
The other reasons that I did not address are: Cost to the member for yet another uniform, and the generally-silly look to the uniform selected. Also, the availability of the Golf Shirt combo, which achieves the same casual and rank-less look, completes the lack of justification for this new abortion of a uniform.
The question I forgot to pose to the poster who is currently participating in VSAF is......
Were you issued the polo and pants, or did you purchase both, or separately? Also, if you wear BDU's without rank insignia, are they providing you the BDU? Also, BDU's are no longer an Air Force issued clothing bag item. Are they going to issue ABU's then?
I have so many questions, that can and should be issued by weekly press releases from NHQ. They are taking the month off I suppose!
Anyone posed these questions to the K-Base yet?
Mikeylikey,
Back on page 4, GPVIIOps stated that they offered to give him an extra BDU top, which he turned down. I'd imagine he would also need an extra BDU cap as well.
All,
I think it has already been proven that the casual VSAF uniform will not be fit for use as an all-purpose uniform and other uniform types will (or already have) been authorized. When the next official document for this program comes out in 6-12 months I'm sure that standard CAP uniforms (possibly still without rank) will be listed and members will be wearing the local UOD, or a VSAF UOD as proscribed by their local USAF commander.
On the rank issue, I think this is a sticking point for a lot of people because the AF will be contradicting itself, and on somewhat slim grounds. By following orders and removing rank from the coat and cap, GPVIIOps will be flagrantly violating CAP and USAF-mandated uniform regulations. Wear of rank is not optional, just like wear of name-tapes is not optional. Not to mention that this rank logic already flies in the face of the Chaplain program, who work with active duty units and wear their CAP rank. (yes, I know they have different, nifty aux name tapes, but they have no more or less experience, training, or authority than we do.) I know NHQ/AF can just change the Reg to allow it, but that wouldnt be based on any hard studies or reports.
The best way I can put the rank argument in context is to use the gun control arguments as an example... pro-gunners ask "Why should I give my gun up?", and anti-gunners ask "Why do you need your gun?"
But in this case the "pro-gunners" have a firm 2nd amendment as the rank structure has been in place and approved by the AF ( I wont regurgitate the history lessons posted earlier in this thread). Which is why I would raise my hand and ask "Sir, why only now, in 2008 are we creating an issue regarding a part of our organization that has basically not been touched by the AF in a serious way since 1942?" If its a reg, and it seriously affects a core part of our orginization and heraldrical tradition, we need to make it as hard as possible for someone to come along and change it on a whim, or nothing will be sacred.
BUT, I still have a feeling that at the end of the test period (whenever that is) members will be wearing complete uniforms in accordance with CAP/USAF regs, which includes current rank. They just need to get the warm fuzzy from the test period.
^ If a CAP member wear to wear say, Service Dress shirt and pants with no rank, they would be indistinguishable from say an Airman (E-1) with no rank insignia. The only difference is the CAP persons namebadge would say Civil Air Patrol. Now I know we don't want that to happen..... ;D
And what is this about Chaplains wearing AUX what??
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 08, 2008, 01:30:25 AM
Quote from: Dragoon on March 07, 2008, 11:04:10 PM
While tradition has value, it needs to be measured against current needs. Otherwise we'd still carry sabres and ride horses. And keep slaves. And other stuff that deserves to be changed.
The question is a valid one - what value does CAP grade bring to VSAF operations? Does it help us do the job better? Does the lack of it impede the mission?
Only with a full list of pros and cons can a rational decision be made. "The way we've always done things".....may be the wrong way.
You say the question (posed by Themann) is valid, yet you pose the same question I did in a different way.
You ask if the value of tradition is outweighed by current needs. That is exactly what I suggested that the proper question should be.
Why is it necessary to scrap tradition for this program? What "Current need" is served by scrapping more than 6 decades of tradition?
If your "Current need" is to avoid confusing airmen, I think you are woefully underestimating airmen.
Just the word "tradition" isn't a very coherent argument - it needs expanding. After all, the unranked golf shirt is a CAP tradition as well. As is the blazer. (Not as old a tradition, but a tradition nonetheless. Removing grade where it serves no purpose isn't as new as some would like to make it.
Traditionally, we have not worked side by side with USAF in their spaces. We have worked seperately, - doing missions FOR USAF but not really WITH USAF. Sure, there's been the odd exception here and there, but VSAF is fundamentally different. It brings CAP personnel into USAF staff positions for long term assignements. And our rank does not translate into that world. A CAP major may be best utilized doing SSgt work, and a CAP 2d Lt might be best utilized doing Lt Col work. It's not our CAP training that matters most to them - it's our real world, outside CAP skills that are going to be brought to bear. And our rank simply doesn't equate with that.
And here's the big thing - "tradition" words both ways. Within the military, there is a traditional view of what officer grade means. Every single serviceman is indoctrinated with that tradition. And here comes CAP, completely smashing that traditional view.
We have to respect their traditions as well, if we're going to work well alongside them.
New game, new rules. The only reason I can see to allow grade would be if we couldn't get members to participate otherwise. (i.e., consider it "payment" for their volunteer efforts.) But this isn't supposed to be about US - it's supposed to be about the mission.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 04:44:48 AM
^ If a CAP member wear to wear say, Service Dress shirt and pants with no rank, they would be indistinguishable from say an Airman (E-1) with no rank insignia. The only difference is the CAP persons namebadge would say Civil Air Patrol. Now I know we don't want that to happen..... ;D
And what is this about Chaplains wearing AUX what??
Yeah, but stick a 'Civil Air Patrol' or 'USAF Aux' shoulder mark on their epaulettes...
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister link=topic=4006.msg86511#msg86511
Lets separate two issues. As I said, the fact that I earned my rank the hard way is a personal issue, and the fact that CAP would require me to dress in a ridiculous-looking retail sales associate uniform rather than the uniform of my country is sufficient for me to take a pass on this mission. That, however, is a personal issue. Your mileage may vary.
I understand your frustration, sir.
Doesn't it say in 39-1 that CAP members who are conducting official business on a military installation will wear the uniform prescribed by the base commander (or its distinctive equivalent)? VSAF constitutes official business.
I have not seen any ICL's or memos authorizing this new VSAF uniform, just an article on cap.gov about the program and its new uniform. It seems to me like this new tradition of wearing the VSAF uniform would contradict the policy of wearing the uniform prescribed by the base commander while conducting official business.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister link=topic=4006.msg86511#msg86511
The other point I was making, is that I think the decision to scrap the traditional uniform is wrong-headed for several reasons, not the least of which is that we have, for six decades, served the United States in the uniform of the Air Force. So, why, when providing direct support to the Air Force, do we scrap the tradition?
I wish I had the answer. Has
any reason been given as to why the USAF/CAP distinctive uniforms are not to be worn for VSAF activities?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister link=topic=4006.msg86511#msg86511The very remote possibility of some clueless airman somewhere becoming confused does not seem to me to be an over-riding reason.
I agree, but perhaps it has more to do with the Air Force's reluctance to allow CAP personnel to look like AF personnel.
If they won't let CAP officers wear blue epaulets and nametags, chances are they won't let them wear military or CAP distinctive uniforms for VSAF, either.
I don't know that this new VSAF uniform is the result of some mandate from the Air Force... this could all be CAP's doing... but I would think that the CAP leadership would be more than happy to allow CAP personnel to wear AF/CAP uniforms while augmenting for VSAF.
If my guess is right and the Air Force wants to ensure that CAP personnel who take part in VSAF aren't confused with AF personnel, they could easily mandate that only CAP distinctive uniforms be worn. That way, there is a uniform available for every assignment in VSAF and no one is left out.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister link=topic=4006.msg86511#msg86511
The other reasons that I did not address are: Cost to the member for yet another uniform, and the generally-silly look to the uniform selected. Also, the availability of the Golf Shirt combo, which achieves the same casual and rank-less look, completes the lack of justification for this new abortion of a uniform.
I agree. The only reason I can think of as to why this new uniform was created is that the Air Force said "no" to all the AF and CAP distinctive uniforms already in CAP's inventory, and wanted an even more distinctive look.
The only other reason I can think of the new uniform was for those persons recruited into CAP specifically for VSAF. I think they are hoping to get 1,000's of new members who don't report to a Squadron, but work directly for the VSAF program. Then that way they need not buy uniforms they won't use, and it will make that person feel happier. We need to step back and look at bigger pictures, and the true reasons usually are hidden, but can be discovered.
I suggest the next person here who runs into Courter, ask her some of these questions! If we do keep the VSAF uniform, then we should begin a 1 year phase out of the current polo and grey slacks!
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 03:22:44 PM
I think they are hoping to get 1,000's of new members who don't report to a Squadron, but work directly for the VSAF program.
Huh??
I think perhaps someone ought to wake them up out of their dream state if thats truly what they are thinking.
In a way...I am involved directly in support of an AF mission. I am the operations officer for the space shuttle recovery team at Edwards AFB. CAP is directly involved in a landing at Edwards. In fact, at the last landing at Edwards, CAP and one Navy Helo were the only two aircraft airborne just after the shuttle landed. CAP was handling security and photo recon.
My crew all wore the green bag with grade insignia for this. I fly in an Army Blackhawk helicopter with the air boss in my green bag with grade (major) insignia. (I'm kinda like a mini airboss).
In meetings and training at Edwards I wear the uniform of the day....mostly the green bag.
There has never been an issue with me wearing the green flight suit with grade insignia doing this. I am saluted and return salutes smartly. And I salute those in grade above me without hesitation.
The Army , Navy & AF folks all know who I am and there is never an issue. I have been treated with respect as have been my crew. I am an integral part of the pilot brief and all meetings.
Now I am not mentioning this to toot my own horn....but to point out that I work closely with active duty folks from the Air Force, Army and Navy not to mention NASA. Never has there been an issue.
^I'd have to say, very cool job to have with CAP.
Quote from: cnitas on March 10, 2008, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 03:22:44 PM
I think they are hoping to get 1,000's of new members who don't report to a Squadron, but work directly for the VSAF program.
Huh??
I think perhaps someone ought to wake them up out of their dream state if thats truly what they are thinking.
Why wouldn't that happen? It appears that's what a big chuck of the program is gonna be about.
Mikey:
You may be right, there WAS some mention of other base volunteers coming into CAP as a result of this program.
But that still would not explain why the golf shirt combo could not be used.
I hate to add rumor, but an NB member told me that the uniform was announced by our commander during a huge teleconference call with no input or debate from the NB or NEC members.. Not sure if it was her idea, or foisted on her by her USAF POC, but either way, the NB and NEC never got to weigh in on the issue.
Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2008, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: cnitas on March 10, 2008, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 03:22:44 PM
I think they are hoping to get 1,000's of new members who don't report to a Squadron, but work directly for the VSAF program.
Huh??
I think perhaps someone ought to wake them up out of their dream state if thats truly what they are thinking.
Why wouldn't that happen? It appears that's what a big chuck of the program is gonna be about.
Because there are not thousands of people out there trying to volunteer to do this work for free that are not already volunteering in some other way?
Perhaps I am wrong, but that is not the sense I get when trying to recruit for CAP.
I'm afraid that this discussion is an example of what is wrong with CAP today.
Cap whine: "The USAF doesn't give us missions!"
USAF Answer: "OK here is a whole new mission area for you."
Cap whine: :What do I get to wear?" (Now there's an important issue), I'm sure it was the subchasers primary concern. You wear what you are told to. Period, no discussion. I can assure you that I never felt that BDUs were appropriate to my stature and place in life, but I wore them cause I was told to.
Cap whine: "I'm really an officer you know!"
Reality answer: " No your not, unless you possess a commision from the Congress, you simply are not a Military Officer. You may be a CAP officer, which is nice, and an accomplishment, but you are not a military officer.
Cap whine: Do you want me to do what an NCO says, don't you know who I am?
Reality answer: You are a PFC, Private F_____ Civilian" That's all. You may be in an auxiliary, but I guess if you get a call from AFRCC to launch your wing, if it's an NCO calling, you will not go. Get a life! There has never been an officer in the military that has not had to do what an NCO told them to do at some point. I did and I came home from a war alive because I followed an NCO's instructions. He was also a lot smarter than me, and a bunch more experienced. They may not have been orders, but my commission did not say I was smarter than anyone.
Cap whine: "If they don't let me wear what I want I will not play."
Reality Answer: Good, go away!
Sometimes I think that the subchasers are going to get out of their graves and beet the tar out of some of us. We deserve it. They did something to assist in a war effort, they risked their lives, yet we are concerned with risking our rank insignia.
There are really only two appropriate answers to a request from our parent service.
1. Yes Sir.
2. I do not want to play anymore, I did not know that it required me to check my ego at the door.
I do believe that the Boy Scouts have some openings.
I share your frustration.
In the absence of money, CAP has used pride and recognition as the "coin of the realm." Medals, rank, uniforms - all military trappings designed to increase morale (and therefore keep the numbers up. Heck, a CAP recruiting brochure I looked at recently listed the USAF uniform as a "benefit" of joining CAP.
The downside of this focus on external trappings is that the true spirit of service can get lost in the mix. Folks worry more about their own status (their "paycheck," if you will) than their own service.
I'm with you - I'd rather focus on DOING (serving our nation) than BEING (having a cool title and looking like a fighter jock).
Of, course, it would be best to have both. :) But if one's gotta give - it shouldn't be the mission.
I don't think these problems are new to CAP - they've been around at least 20 years, probably longer.
But the one part of the military culture CAP has never quite grokked is "Quite your whining, salute smartly and move out."
(And by the way, the one subchaser I talked to did get paid. He said it was much more than he was making in his "civilian" job. That little tidbit seems to get lost when we discuss our forefathers.)
Quote from: Dragoon on March 18, 2008, 06:07:59 PM
(And by the way, the one subchaser I talked to did get paid. He said it was much more than he was making in his "civilian" job. That little tidbit seems to get lost when we discuss our forefathers.)
[OFF TOPIC]: Some of the doc I posted in the "Historical Documents" thread in the lobby have per diem rates for coastal patrol base personnel. I also have receipts from the Navy for "services rendered" for armed guards and target towing...
[/off topic]
I would be 1st in line for VSAF if they paid me more than my 'civillian' job. And I would not even complain about the uniform ;D
paid more than your civilian job, hmm, http://www.usajobs.gov might have some openings that fit that bill :p
Quote from: MIGCAP on March 18, 2008, 04:28:53 PM
I'm afraid that this discussion is an example of what is wrong with CAP today.
Cap whine: "The USAF doesn't give us missions!"
USAF Answer: "OK here is a whole new mission area for you."
Cap whine: :What do I get to wear?" (Now there's an important issue), I'm sure it was the subchasers primary concern. You wear what you are told to. Period, no discussion. I can assure you that I never felt that BDUs were appropriate to my stature and place in life, but I wore them cause I was told to.
Cap whine: "I'm really an officer you know!"
Reality answer: " No your not, unless you possess a commision from the Congress, you simply are not a Military Officer. You may be a CAP officer, which is nice, and an accomplishment, but you are not a military officer.
Cap whine: Do you want me to do what an NCO says, don't you know who I am?
Reality answer: You are a PFC, Private F_____ Civilian" That's all. You may be in an auxiliary, but I guess if you get a call from AFRCC to launch your wing, if it's an NCO calling, you will not go. Get a life! There has never been an officer in the military that has not had to do what an NCO told them to do at some point. I did and I came home from a war alive because I followed an NCO's instructions. He was also a lot smarter than me, and a bunch more experienced. They may not have been orders, but my commission did not say I was smarter than anyone.
Cap whine: "If they don't let me wear what I want I will not play."
Reality Answer: Good, go away!
Sometimes I think that the subchasers are going to get out of their graves and beet the tar out of some of us. We deserve it. They did something to assist in a war effort, they risked their lives, yet we are concerned with risking our rank insignia.
There are really only two appropriate answers to a request from our parent service.
1. Yes Sir.
2. I do not want to play anymore, I did not know that it required me to check my ego at the door.
I do believe that the Boy Scouts have some openings.
The conversation did not go exactly like that.
CAP: "We have a great mission for you. You will augment the AF."
Mbrs: "Great. When do we start?"
CAP: "Wait a minute... you can't wear your rank. It might scare the Airmen."
Mbrs: "OK. That's stupid, but we can adapt. We'll just wear our Golf Shirts."
CAP: "Uh... no. We have designed a new uniform for you. You can buy it from Vanguard."
Mbrs: "It is ugly. It looks like a retail sales associate. CAP does not have a Specialty Track for 'Mission Dork' so I am not qualified to wear it."
CAP: "Wear the uniform. It's an order."
Mbrs: "You got a set of horn-rimmed glasses and a pocket protector full of pens to with that ensemble?"
Quote from: MIGCAP on March 18, 2008, 04:28:53 PM
Reality answer: " No your not, unless you possess a commision from the Congress, you simply are not a Military Officer.
Point of order for accuracy: Commissions are granted by the president, not congress. Mine says at the top: PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. (Back to your regularly scheduled argument). :D
Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 11:11:54 PM
Quote from: MIGCAP on March 18, 2008, 04:28:53 PM
Reality answer: " No your not, unless you possess a commision from the Congress, you simply are not a Military Officer.
Point of order for accuracy: Commissions are granted by the president, not congress. Mine says at the top: PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. (Back to your regularly scheduled argument). :D
Too add: The Senate Confirms Officers, not Congress.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 18, 2008, 11:44:02 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 11:11:54 PM
Quote from: MIGCAP on March 18, 2008, 04:28:53 PM
Reality answer: " No your not, unless you possess a commision from the Congress, you simply are not a Military Officer.
Point of order for accuracy: Commissions are granted by the president, not congress. Mine says at the top: PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. (Back to your regularly scheduled argument). :D
Too add: The Senate Confirms Officers, not Congress.
Correct!
More specifically, it isn't so much that the uniform we'll have to wear is ugly. It's the fact that it's ugly and we have to buy it with our own money... in addition to uniforms we already have to buy.
That becomes a BURDEN. A burden isn't a good "thank you" for doing volunteer work.
Just a thought.
None of this would really be an issue if the USAF said:
"We'd like you to do a job for us and here are the polos we'd like you to wear while you're here. Do you think 3 polos will be sufficient to outfit every VSAF member?"
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 23, 2008, 06:29:15 AM
More specifically, it isn't so much that the uniform we'll have to wear is ugly. It's the fact that it's ugly and we have to buy it with our own money... in addition to uniforms we already have to buy.
That becomes a BURDEN. A burden isn't a good "thank you" for doing volunteer work.
Just a thought.
Good thought!
For those who are interested to know what kind of jobs are open with the VSAF program (we are not handing out towels at the gym) here is the updated list for now. As we become more public more opportunities on base will open up I am sure.
Base Exercise and Readiness Office
NAF Human Resources Office
Base Hospital Flight Medicine Clinic
Military Personnel Flight
Airmen and Family Readiness Center
Services - Support Base Honor Guard
Before you ask, I don't know what anyone would be doing in these offices, just thought some people would be interested to see what kind of jobs VSAF has for us. All I know is that I have had a good time so far.
Quote from: GPVIIOps on April 02, 2008, 08:52:24 PM
For those who are interested to know what kind of jobs are open with the VSAF program (we are not handing out towels at the gym) here is the updated list for now. As we become more public more opportunities on base will open up I am sure.
Base Exercise and Readiness Office
NAF Human Resources Office
Base Hospital Flight Medicine Clinic
Military Personnel Flight
Airmen and Family Readiness Center
Services - Support Base Honor Guard
Before you ask, I don't know what anyone would be doing in these offices, just thought some people would be interested to see what kind of jobs VSAF has for us. All I know is that I have had a good time so far.
These aren't bad duties! I'm impressed.
^ Actually they are not bad Offices, we do not know what duties you will have in said offices.
The duties are probably commiserate with the quality and capability of the volunteer that shows up.
I need to avoid that program as I have already spent too many years sharpening pencils.... ;D
Or as was nicely pointed out to me.... commensurate ....
;D
Base Hospital Flight Medicine Clinic
Military Personnel Flight
-- dude I am so there! ... except.. wait a minute...
Scott AFB closed its clinic and contracted with the local civilian hospital back in 2006. And the MPF was contracted out in '07
... ::) ??? >:(
Though this appears to pre-date the VSAF program, it does appear to be somewhat similar in that MD Wing folks are working directly with the AF, though not in any "glamorous" job:
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=4179&year=2008&month=4
Kach ... have you and your space tours ever been featured on the National website?
GPVIIOPS:
Im assuming the excersize is over, what does the Air Force have you doing now?
Have you picked up any "perks" yet? I must say Im really interested in whether or not we will be able to wear our "normal" uniforms for this VSAF duty in the future.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 09:00:40 PM
Kach ... have you and your space tours ever been featured on the National website?
GPVIIOPS:
Im assuming the excersize is over, what does the Air Force have you doing now?
Have you picked up any "perks" yet? I must say Im really interested in whether or not we will be able to wear our "normal" uniforms for this VSAF duty in the future.
Not yet, but it is on the list for me to have our new PAO do when I come back from Texas.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 09:00:40 PM
Kach ... have you and your space tours ever been featured on the National website?
GPVIIOPS:
Im assuming the excersize is over, what does the Air Force have you doing now?
Have you picked up any "perks" yet? I must say Im really interested in whether or not we will be able to wear our "normal" uniforms for this VSAF duty in the future.
Yeah... they gave him a free 1 year membership to the Club at Patrick AFB
:o
Nice, however CAP SM's already have the option of joining a Club, I was told that it is in the same context as CAP having Aero Club rights.
Now, not knowing how much membership is at Patrick this is probably a great gift.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 27, 2008, 08:01:21 AM
Nice, however CAP SM's already have the option of joining a Club, I was told that it is in the same context as CAP having Aero Club rights.
You may want to confirm that. I think it is up to the individual club/base commander whether or not to extend membership to CAP members. My sqdn was located on an AFB and the base commander allowed CAP members to have club memberships. Several yrs later and a new base commander the privilege was withdrawn.
I just looked at my MSA from Natl. Staff College last yr and it specifically authorizes use of the Club while attending NSC. The graduation banquet was held at the Club and while waiting for dinner I remember looking at a membership brochure and CAP was not listed as a category eligible for membership.
This is true it is up to the /CC
GPVIIOPS:
Im assuming the excersize is over, what does the Air Force have you doing now?
Have you picked up any "perks" yet? I must say Im really interested in whether or not we will be able to wear our "normal" uniforms for this VSAF duty in the future.
[/quote]
Being in the Exercise Planning Office, there is always another exercise around the corner. Right now we just completed the NLE or National Level Exercise, and now we are ramping up for another local exercise next month. We have one a month planned out and as soon as you finish one, it's time to start working on the other.
As far a "perks" go, I am not sure what I could get. The base CC here is pretty lenient with CAP. I can already use just about any facility on base with the acception of the BX. I can use the service center, self help, hobby shop, golf course, and I have yet to try, but I hear tell that we can use the O-Club on base.
Luke Air Force Base is trying the program also: http://www.cap.gov/documents/Thunderbolt_article_May_9.pdf
No specific details, though it says they mostly need administrative help.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 11, 2008, 03:43:30 PM
Luke Air Force Base is trying the program also: http://www.cap.gov/documents/Thunderbolt_article_May_9.pdf
No specific details, though it says they mostly need administrative help.
From what I hear they are starting to open it up a little more now. Not sure who all is going to be participating though.
Just let me know when Scott AFB in IL starts the VSAF. Either that or the ILANG
::)
The May-June issue of the Volunteer features this program: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/civil_air_patrol_volunteer/
but it doesn't have any new info.
Patrick AFB shut its aero club down more than a year ago.
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 27, 2008, 06:01:00 AM
Yeah... they gave him a free 1 year membership to the Club at Patrick AFB
That is worth some bucks most places. Monthly club dues are not insignificant - and you had to sign up for the Club's credit card to pay the dues. Might have changed since I left....
Story about CAP member in Luke AFB VSAF program ... just talks about him videotaping a change of command ceremony. http://www.luke.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123100576
Things must be slow at Luke if that makes the paper.
A change of command ALWAYS makes the paper.
Not saying what this gentleman is doing at Luke is not important, and worthwhile, but the PAO who wrote up the article, was most likely from the same office this VSAF volunteer works in, and could have setup the videocamera all the same.
Also, I thought we were not going by CAP rank in VSAF. Someone needs to inform the Air Force that VSAF volunteers are not to be addressed by their CAP rank!!!!!!!!
No one said that they can't be addressed by their CAP rank. They just can't wear it.
Frankly, they could have picked something a bit more substantive to publisize.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 05, 2008, 10:14:09 PM
Story about CAP member in Luke AFB VSAF program ... just talks about him videotaping a change of command ceremony. http://www.luke.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123100576
Not that I'm making this into ANOTHER uniform thread....but he's not in the VSAF uniform.
Sort of hard to wear something that isn't available for purchase....at least I don't see anything like it on Vanguard, but then again I don't have 6 hours to go through 6 dozen pages of the same picture of the same uniform in size 22, 24, 26, 26, ..... to try to find it.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 06, 2008, 12:41:49 AM
Sort of hard to wear something that isn't available for purchase....at least I don't see anything like it on Vanguard, but then again I don't have 6 hours to go through 6 dozen pages of the same picture of the same uniform in size 22, 24, 26, 26, ..... to try to find it.
Or the "image not available" Not nearly as prelevant, but still there, last I checked.
Anyone see the VSAF article in the Volunteer this month? The main photo shows a few officers wearing the standard CAP polo with khakis while others are wearing a short sleeve button down shirt with the CAP shield on it. Both look almost identical. I don't see how the polo could confuse someone. All it has is the CAP logo, the name (no grade) and maybe wings on it.
This issue of the New York National Guard magazine has an article in it about an augmentation mission being performed by the New York Guard (their State Defense Force): http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/gdtimes/gt_spring08.pdf
Basically, the NYG members are teaching "Basic Flight" to new members of the Air National Guard. The course is described as a
Quotepre-basic training course that bridges the gap between the civilian world and an Airman's basic military training.
It doesn't go into any great detail, but this appears to be a class for new Air NG recruits that probably aren't pilots. It would seem to be something that might be appropriate for the VSAF program if it is ever expanded beyond active duty AF units (since they presumably don't have pre-basic training people around while the NG regularly does).
The Air branch of the New York Guard hires only prior USAF personnel, so they have a good understanding of what BMT is like. They are also the state military and are on orders (and paid) when activated by the Governor.
All those things make these people different from CAP. I personally don't think this is a good idea for CAP. 99% of CAP members don't know what USAF Basic Military Training is like today and 99% of those that do, wouldn't be able to provide USAF with time to do VSAF.
Based on what was described in the article, it certainly doesn't seem as if this is a class beyond the ability of many CAP members to teach whether they have prior service or not. It is knowledge of flight that seems to be the point of the class. If CAP can't teach a basic aerospace class to people with no background in it, we've got problems.
I can tell you from first hand experience that working in any aspect of the VSAF program it helps to have prior AF experience. When you are trying to talk to Active Duty personnel or Civilian Employees it's hard to work around the acronyms and three dollar words without at least a little time in the military. If you get lucky enough to work with an office that deals with any level of "field training" you also have a little better understanding of what the young Airman is going through.
Also gets you a little more respect from the AF members you are working with.
Quote from: afgeo4 on June 30, 2008, 03:52:13 AM
The Air branch of the New York Guard hires only prior USAF personnel, so they have a good understanding of what BMT is like. They are also the state military and are on orders (and paid) when activated by the Governor.
All those things make these people different from CAP. I personally don't think this is a good idea for CAP. 99% of CAP members don't know what USAF Basic Military Training is like today and 99% of those that do, wouldn't be able to provide USAF with time to do VSAF.
From what I am told, the regulations on this are still in the works. They have had to give a little on the "Must be in USAF uniform though." Working in the Exercise Planning & Wing Readiness office, we spend a lot of time training in field conditions. Short sleeve shirt, kaki pants, and dress shoes don't quite cut it out there.
I was given a few other options outside of the VSAF uniform, but all are strictly upon the request of the office I am working with.
Quote from: RogueLeader on June 07, 2008, 05:37:22 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 06, 2008, 12:41:49 AM
Sort of hard to wear something that isn't available for purchase....at least I don't see anything like it on Vanguard, but then again I don't have 6 hours to go through 6 dozen pages of the same picture of the same uniform in size 22, 24, 26, 26, ..... to try to find it.
Or the "image not available" Not nearly as prelevant, but still there, last I checked.
I have been thinking about this thread since reading it last night.
I guess I am confused as to how the USAF is not OK with our rank in uniform on a day to day basis, but seems to be OK with it in "disaster mode".
My point is that if in any of our Wings we are given AFAM and start showing up for mission assignments with units (USAF, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard, etc) there is not instruction for us to "peel off our rank" before showing up for duty.
It's a bit conflicting that we wouldn't want to "expose and train" those folks to the difference before "we're in the middle of it"? Just a thought. Probably more time for VSAF to explain in front of coffee pot than on the flight line while loading SDIS packages / goods.
Its the difference between HQ and field people. HQ thinks that its important to distinguish between CAP and the AF. The field people realize that
A. Its not really that important.
B. CAP's uniform is different enough that no one with an IQ over 75 is going to have a hard time telling the difference anyway.
^ And I don't think it was AF that said "no rank". I am sure it was a corporate lawyer sitting at Maxwell.
I don't want to get into the same argument about rank on here that we had once before, but I can tell you that I do understand why they don't let me wear my rank.
I work on a regular basis with lowly little Airman and Senior Airman. We also have volunteers working in the Airman and Family Readiness center on base. Me as a CAP Capt might not be as inviting to talk to as just some civilian or other person wearing goofy blue tapes on my BDU's. And trust me, having been there my self, you can try to explain CAP to an E-2 all day long, and you are still going to get the same response "Yes Sir" if you have rank on. It's not a matter of the AF or HQ not wanting to recognize rank, its a matter of everyone wanting to make our augmentation/transition as smooth as possible. Working VSAF, you may be put in a position where you are working under an Airman ...... if you have Capt or Lt bars on your uniform, how well do you think that would go over?
********* Caution Caution Caution ********* --- Man on a soap box---
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care less either way. Unlike others in CAP, I see my rank as a fake grade anyhow. Honesty, what does it take to obtain Captain in CAP??? Not a whole lot. I have also met people all the way up to the rank of Lt Col who fail to impress me in any way shape or form. As far is "I have earned my rank and I am going to wear it" sayers...... I figured out how to renew my membership on e-services a few years in a row too.
Bottom line..... don't like the rules, then don't participate. Don't want to participate? Then you have no room to talk.
End of Rant :angel:
Quote from: KyCAP on July 06, 2008, 09:37:33 PM
I have been thinking about this thread since reading it last night.
I guess I am confused as to how the USAF is not OK with our rank in uniform on a day to day basis, but seems to be OK with it in "disaster mode".
My point is that if in any of our Wings we are given AFAM and start showing up for mission assignments with units (USAF, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard, etc) there is not instruction for us to "peel off our rank" before showing up for duty.
It's a bit conflicting that we wouldn't want to "expose and train" those folks to the difference before "we're in the middle of it"? Just a thought. Probably more time for VSAF to explain in front of coffee pot than on the flight line while loading SDIS packages / goods.
Quote from: GPVIIOps on July 07, 2008, 01:12:18 AM
I don't want to get into the same argument about rank on here that we had once before, but I can tell you that I do understand why they don't let me wear my rank.
I work on a regular basis with lowly little Airman and Senior Airman. We also have volunteers working in the Airman and Family Readiness center on base. Me as a CAP Capt might not be as inviting to talk to as just some civilian or other person wearing goofy blue tapes on my BDU's. And trust me, having been there my self, you can try to explain CAP to an E-2 all day long, and you are still going to get the same response "Yes Sir" if you have rank on. It's not a matter of the AF or HQ not wanting to recognize rank, its a matter of everyone wanting to make our augmentation/transition as smooth as possible. Working VSAF, you may be put in a position where you are working under an Airman ...... if you have Capt or Lt bars on your uniform, how well do you think that would go over?
********* Caution Caution Caution ********* --- Man on a soap box---
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care less either way. Unlike others in CAP, I see my rank as a fake grade anyhow. Honesty, what does it take to obtain Captain in CAP??? Not a whole lot. I have also met people all the way up to the rank of Lt Col who fail to impress me in any way shape or form. As far is "I have earned my rank and I am going to wear it" sayers...... I figured out how to renew my membership on e-services a few years in a row too.
Bottom line..... don't like the rules, then don't participate. Don't want to participate? Then you have no room to talk.
End of Rant :angel:
Quote from: KyCAP on July 06, 2008, 09:37:33 PM
I have been thinking about this thread since reading it last night.
I guess I am confused as to how the USAF is not OK with our rank in uniform on a day to day basis, but seems to be OK with it in "disaster mode".
My point is that if in any of our Wings we are given AFAM and start showing up for mission assignments with units (USAF, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard, etc) there is not instruction for us to "peel off our rank" before showing up for duty.
It's a bit conflicting that we wouldn't want to "expose and train" those folks to the difference before "we're in the middle of it"? Just a thought. Probably more time for VSAF to explain in front of coffee pot than on the flight line while loading SDIS packages / goods.
I understand your point, and can agree with it to a certain extent. Enough that I'm not inclined to quibble. MY biggest beef with the program is that we already HAVE a uniform that meets the stated criteria of the VSAF uniform... the Golf Shirt combo. Do we get a new uniform for every new mission?
YES ! but you quibble so...
NO UNIFORM FOR YOU
:)
^ Man.....I was looking forward to buying a new set of khaki pants and an ugly polo.
Seriously though........Has anything "really" come out of the VSAF Program? We are still almost in the dark as to what the volunteers are doing, where they are working etc. A nice page from the VSAF coordinator on what is going on would be awesome.
^ Maybe that is too much to ask. I am not sure........but what I am sure about is a distinctive uniform was prescribed, but yet some in the VSAF community, are clearly not following the guidelines. We have pics to prove it, and the guy above wearing BDU's when he should be in the VSAF prescribed wear. I am curious.......has he ripped off the rank from the CAP BDU's when he goes into the field, wouldn't want to confuse his E-2 supervisor too much now would we?!!?
Silliness.
Couldn't agree with you more. I was talking about wearing the BDU's or the Blue BDU's with out the rank.
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I understand your point, and can agree with it to a certain extent. Enough that I'm not inclined to quibble. MY biggest beef with the program is that we already HAVE a uniform that meets the stated criteria of the VSAF uniform... the Golf Shirt combo. Do we get a new uniform for every new mission?
[/quote]
I can't speak for all the bases doing the program, but some good has come from it at my base. I have been able to provide valuable input to the exercise planning office which is drastically understaffed and assist in the training of Airman going off to war. I have helped in the emergency disaster drills at the base, and worked with the Emergency Readiness people to develop contingency plans. I have a background in Fire/EMS, Law Enforcement and military so believe it or not, I have helped and seen the so called "fruits of my labor." CAP personnel can do a lot for the Air Force as long as they are the right people in the right positions.
As far as what jobs are open, well that's a little hard to publish seeing as it is up to each base. At the commanders staff meeting the Base CC talks about the program, lets all the commanders know what we can offer, and they put their names in to have people come out and work. Locally we have had positions open in the Exercise Planning/Wing Readiness office, Airman and Family Readiness Center, Base Honor Guard, Base Hospital, and other understaffed offices. I am sure other bases are different and I don't know what their needs are. The way it works is the CAP-VSAF Air Force contact for the base contacts the CAP CAP-VSAF contact and tells them what they have. That person works on filling the slots from there. Locally the Group Commander sent out an e-mail to all the people in the Group letting them know what they have open and asking them to sign up. The list of jobs open can change from day to day.
As for the VSAF uniform being prescribed, and some people in the VSAF community not following those guidelines.... I believe I have already answered that question in previous posts, but here I go again. Working in the office I do, we spend a lot of time in "the field". The CAP-VSAF uniform wouldn't work out to well for that now would it? So my Group CC called CAP HQ VSAF people and told them about the situation. He talked it over with the AF, National CC, and a few other people and it was approved for me to wear either of the BDU combinations..... and yes without the rank. I have to tell ya, I don't feel any different without it.
Depending on what we have scheduled that day I will either wear the VSAF uniform or the Blue BDU combo. I don't personally like the blue BDU's, but I have found that it makes people ask questions, not to mention the Major and Lt Col I work for like the way it looks. I have also found that it doesn't matter what uniform you are in or if/what rank you hold. You have to work with these people either way to earn their respect.... Just like Active Duty. After working in a few exercises, getting dirty in the field during ECST training, and showing the active duty folks I know what I am doing, I am here to help, and I don't care to get dirty, they treat me like I am one of their own... CAP Captain or lowly civilian, doesn't' matter either way.
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 08, 2008, 01:54:39 AM
^ Man.....I was looking forward to buying a new set of khaki pants and an ugly polo.
Seriously though........Has anything "really" come out of the VSAF Program? We are still almost in the dark as to what the volunteers are doing, where they are working etc. A nice page from the VSAF coordinator on what is going on would be awesome.
^ Maybe that is too much to ask. I am not sure........but what I am sure about is a distinctive uniform was prescribed, but yet some in the VSAF community, are clearly not following the guidelines. We have pics to prove it, and the guy above wearing BDU's when he should be in the VSAF prescribed wear. I am curious.......has he ripped off the rank from the CAP BDU's when he goes into the field, wouldn't want to confuse his E-2 supervisor too much now would we?!!?
Silliness.
The program just started not that long ago and only in a limited number of sites. I wouldn't expect much in the way of results just yet-- they're just testing the concept. But, even if you assume everything goes well and it goes nationwide, I wouldn't expect results that shake the AF to its very core. It will probably always be a relatively small program, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.
Kach: how goes your space tour program this summer?
Any new changes or interesting tidbits?
Have there ever been any pictures or news releases of the venture?
We have not done any releases, but...
Yesterday and today we opened the museum early for two special tours by educators from around the country. Myself and two CAP lieutenants ran the tour and the gift shop, and were the ONLY government personnel on the site.
The program has been going on for more than a year. We are training one cadet right now to do the tours as well.
We deal with mostly the public rather than military guys, so we DO wear our rank and introduce ourselves as "Maj. John Kachenmeister of the US Air Force Auxiliary" and welcome the visitors on behalf the the 45th Space Wing.
^ How long does each tour last?
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 02:05:02 AM
^ How long does each tour last?
The regular "Tourist" tours last about 45 minutes, about 25-30 minutes of which is the formal presentation, and the remainder is for the guests to wander the rocket garden, visit the gift shop, or otherwise browse and look at the displays. We stay with the tours in the general area to answer any questions that come up, especially from people too self-conscious to ask during the guided tour.
The special tours, from NASA or from Patrick AFB Public Affairs are longer, 1 hour to 90 minutes. A little more time to wander.
The rest of the tour takes the guests to the first manned launch site, which is a computerized tour, and other historic sites on the Cape. The museum and the manned site, however, is the high point of the tour. The other sites mostly don't even involve getting off the bus.
The whole tour lasts about three hours, but we are only involved at the museum site.