I was wondering what your favorite weapons- not for CAP, but for personal use. Can be real or imagined. Have fun.
This is fun:
(http://www.triggerfin.com/ProductImages/Firearms/kp944.jpg)
This is my next goal:
(http://www.hammermods.com/images/unnamed-m4.jpg)
Got Lead?
(http://www.kmike.com/KWjpg/thompson.jpg)
Gotta go with a classic. Sgt. Savage, you should get one...adds class to any collection, instantally!!!
Operational security prevents me from providing a picture, but my personal favorite is the M-1911A1 .45 caliber pistol.
The M-1911 was developed in response to Muslim terrorists in the Philippines, who would get pumped up on dope before launching suicidal attacks during the Philippine Insurrection. The Army pistol that the .45 replaced did not have the knock-down capability that the .45 had. The M-1911 instantly became a legend.
The M-1911 and its A1 variant served throughout the 20th century, being replaced by the underpowered and effete European 9mm M-9 pistol. The M-9 has already been abandoned by Special Operations units in favor of returning the M-1911A1 as the standard duty sidearm.
I was issued my first M-1911A1 in 1968 at the ripe old age of 18. I qualified as a sharpshooter back then, but I got better. I carried one in Vietnam.
When I returned to the states, I carried a .45 with a Marine reserve company, and qualified expert in each of the two years I served there. I again carried a .45 as an enlisted MP in the National Guard, and as an MP officer following OCS. In OCS I had the highest pistol score of my class.
After I retired from the police force, I bought a .45 of my own... a standard G.I. M-1911A1, nothing fancy or custom, for $500. It is a comforting feeling when my dog growls and barks at 1:00am that a chubby old man in his boxer shorts can bring the wrath of Thor down on whatever loser is prowling around his house.
"Persons found here at night... will be found here in the morning."
"The dog is friendly and gentile... Beware of the Owner!"
Can a M1911 A1 still be bought for reasonable prices?
Depends on your definition of reasonable... You can find them in working shape (defined as "will fire more than one round in a row without service") at most gun shows for $200 and up. A $200 Colt however, is not going to be pretty...
Ok, what would a 1911 A1 cost in good condition- fully serviceable, and reliable, and looking good.
About $500-$600 for a very basic model, Around $800-$1000 for a decent carry version with the throat worked, the corners and sharp edges rounded, decent grips, and a little trigger work...
I got a new one for $500, but its a standard G.I. model from Springfield Armory. Be very suspicious of any M-1911A1 priced under $400. At less than that price, it is either:
a) Junk, or
b) Stolen.
You knew it was coming! Semper Fi Devil Dogs!
R. Steht - 0331
Sgt. USMC (former)
Well ... since you asked ... here's my favorite weapon of choice.
Jack
[attachment deleted by admin]
Here's the stuff I like.
(http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/gear.jpg)
Im going to be doing TacMed for a local security contractor that guards and polices Federal Section 8 housing. They need an EMT for search and arrest warrant execution (that is execution of the warrant, not the occupants...usually). Their entry team carries the H and K MP-5. That sort of gets in the way of my medical battle rattle. Im looking for a good all purpose side arm, actually chest arm since it will be carried on a chest rig. Any suggestions. They've also offered that I can carry a shotgun with bean bag rounds. I also carry OC, an ASP "zip straps" and then my medical pack. They are pretty much going to pay for what I think would work best, within reason. ANy suggestions? Maybe I need to make room for that H and K?
In special operations and protective operations it is said that "you are a shooter first". However, it seems in your situation, your primary function is a medic. If that's the case, I'd simply carry a pistol for protection.
As far as pistols that you'd carry on your chest rig, you'd want to go with a medium frame like a Glock 19. If you don't like 9mm, go for a Glock 23, a .40 caliber. People will argue all day long about the best pistol and caliber, but in the end, it's your choice. I always recommend Glocks for those who don't shoot on a regular basis. That being said, if you're carrying a pistol on a regular basis, you need to shoot on a regular basis. But if you plan on wearing it on your chest, you'll want to stay away from a full-size frame like a Glock 17 or Beretta 92F type pistol.
Bic pen
The basic idea is that I wont be doing alot of shooting, except for once a week on the range with the team i work with, and whatever private time I decide to put in. Like I say, they are offering to supply me with an MP-5 but the way I say it is what I need is something to be able to "stand and deliver" if I somehow get seperated from the rest of the team and have to defend myself until the "heavy armor" shows up. Ill be going to a school in September for tactical medical operators and will be trained with the H and K and a Sig Sauer pistol, but then its still up to me in terms of what I feel most comfortable with. I really do have to option of a chest rig or a drop thigh tactical, so there are a few choices open to me. Alot of its going to depend on the tac med vest i go with and how well I can integrate a chest rig into it. Their only requirement for it is that I carry the firearm and two spare magazines in case I get myself into some real trouble and it takes them a little time to get to me. Or i could just lay down and throw the ballistic blanket over myself and hope for the best. ;)
Quote from: RiverAux on July 10, 2007, 10:52:00 PM
Bic pen
Perhaps you didnt understand that the reason I am armed in the first place is that there is a good chance someone will decide to take pot shots at me, regardless of how big the "MEDICAL" patch on my chest is.
Close in, Bic pens are pointy enough to do some damage, but I think he alludes to: "The pen is mightier than the sword." (Edward George Bulwer Lytton, 1839)
::)
Quote from: SarDragon on July 10, 2007, 11:01:03 PM
Close in, Bic pens are pointy enough to do some damage, but I think he alludes to: "The pen is mightier than the sword." (Edward George Bulwer Lytton, 1839)
Yep. ;)
"Whomever said that pens are mightier than swords, have never seen automatic weapons." attributed to Gen MacArthur
If you have an option to get a Sig, go for it. I carried a Sig 229 in .357sig and loved it. And if you do have the option, carry a Safariland drop holster. And, while you're at it, get a tac light for your pistol. If you're going to be inside or working at night, you need a tac light. And yes, Safariland makes a holster for pistols with lights.
Head lamp, you'll need a headlamp if you have to put your medical skills to work while you're armed. Remember, if you're carrying that MP5, it'll get in the way when performing medical aid, which means it may be unsecure. Laying it to the side in an environment that may not be in your (team's) control at the time, could be a fatal mistake.
Which course are you going to? Location? Name of company?
Oh, and you said you'd be shooting weekly...That's a lot of shooting. A lot, but good. No, not good. Awesome. I only get to shoot about twice monthly.
On duty, Glock 22 off duty, a good pair of running shoes.
I was a Tactical EMT as well as a Police SWAT entry member. I was also a Tactical Medic Instructor for a private company. Feel free to PM me. Or maybe start another thread. As a medic, there are a lot of issues that come up when you decide to carry a gun. I agree with it, but it can get very sticky.
PM sent.
possibly even cadet legal (http://www.backyardartillery.com/)
I urge anybody on SWAT teams or anybody else who is serious about defense, do NOT use the 9mm if you have a choice. The 9mm is just above a bb gun in striking power. We (Toledo PD) carried them for years, and had numerous incidents of multiple fatal hits on suspects, but the suspects were still standing and able to shoot at police. I almost lost a good friend who took 4 .38 caliber hits even though her shots from her 9mm went right through the suspect's heart. After that incident, TPD went to .40 caliber.
As a concealed weapon, I carry a .38 5-shot revolver.
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 10, 2007, 10:05:22 PM
Well ... since you asked ... here's my favorite weapon of choice.
Jack
I agree, another classic. I have one somewhere.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 10, 2007, 11:04:39 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on July 10, 2007, 11:01:03 PM
Close in, Bic pens are pointy enough to do some damage, but I think he alludes to: "The pen is mightier than the sword." (Edward George Bulwer Lytton, 1839)
Yep. ;)
Point proven by "Jason Bourne" in the Bourne Identity at his Paris apartment... :)
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 10, 2007, 10:39:34 PM
Im going to be doing TacMed for a local security contractor that guards and polices Federal Section 8 housing. They need an EMT for search and arrest warrant execution (that is execution of the warrant, not the occupants...usually). Their entry team carries the H and K MP-5. That sort of gets in the way of my medical battle rattle. Im looking for a good all purpose side arm, actually chest arm since it will be carried on a chest rig. Any suggestions. They've also offered that I can carry a shotgun with bean bag rounds. I also carry OC, an ASP "zip straps" and then my medical pack. They are pretty much going to pay for what I think would work best, within reason. ANy suggestions? Maybe I need to make room for that H and K?
Listen,
Not that anyone here has given bad advice but...
Carry what you can shoot accurately, consistently, and comfortably. A .50 AE isn't going to provide any more stopping power than a .22 if you can't hit your target when the S^*T hits the fan. Try as many different sidearms as you can get the opportunity to shoot. Select the one that fits the afore mentioned criteria. Then practice, practice, practice.
I like .40S&W. I don't shoot it well in a Glock though I punish paper all day when it's in a Ruger. That having been said, a DEA agent discharged a round of .40 into his leg while giving a classroom demonstration in a school. He walked out of the room after calmly making sure everyone was OK. Shot placement is important. (See Video)http://www.fathers.ca/Terrorism/ogrish-dot-com-police_foot_shoot.wmv (http://www.fathers.ca/Terrorism/ogrish-dot-com-police_foot_shoot.wmv)
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on July 11, 2007, 12:38:52 PM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 10, 2007, 10:39:34 PM
Im going to be doing TacMed for a local security contractor that guards and polices Federal Section 8 housing. They need an EMT for search and arrest warrant execution (that is execution of the warrant, not the occupants...usually). Their entry team carries the H and K MP-5. That sort of gets in the way of my medical battle rattle. Im looking for a good all purpose side arm, actually chest arm since it will be carried on a chest rig. Any suggestions. They've also offered that I can carry a shotgun with bean bag rounds. I also carry OC, an ASP "zip straps" and then my medical pack. They are pretty much going to pay for what I think would work best, within reason. ANy suggestions? Maybe I need to make room for that H and K?
Listen,
Not that anyone here has given bad advice but...
Carry what you can shoot accurately, consistently, and comfortably. A .50 AE isn't going to provide any more stopping power than a .22 if you can't hit your target when the S^*T hits the fan. Try as many different sidearms as you can get the opportunity to shoot. Select the one that fits the afore mentioned criteria. Then practice, practice, practice.
I like .40S&W. I don't shoot it well in a Glock though I punish paper all day when it's in a Ruger. That having been said, a DEA agent discharged a round of .40 into his leg while giving a classroom demonstration in a school. He walked out of the room after calmly making sure everyone was OK. Shot placement is important. (See Video)http://www.fathers.ca/Terrorism/ogrish-dot-com-police_foot_shoot.wmv (http://www.fathers.ca/Terrorism/ogrish-dot-com-police_foot_shoot.wmv)
Makes me think of when my father was in the IL State Police Academy. The fire arms instructor was demonstrating that many semi-autos could be disable by pushing against the end of the barrel, thus disabling the slide. He pushed it against the palm of his hand, and shot himself right through the hand. He, however, was less gracious about his exit, and passed out. My father carried a revolver for most of his carrer until they made him switch about 10 years before he retired as a detective. I got a rather dirty look when I suggested that I might carry a wheel gun as a TacMed operator. I guess that was a "no." I have test many so far (at the expense of countless rounds of ammunition paid for by my employer) and have narrowed it to either some model of Sig or Springfield. No one on the team carries a Glock. They are really sort of pushing for me to carry an MP-5 as well, but just dont know how I feel about having to secure a subgun in the even that I have to care for a team member who has gone down. Anyone with sub gun experience, particularly medics who may have used the MP-5 are invited to PM me with their suggestions or advice.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 10, 2007, 05:52:08 PM
(http://www.kmike.com/KWjpg/thompson.jpg)
Gotta go with a classic. Sgt. Savage, you should get one...adds class to any collection, instantally!!!
I think this is the hands down winner for issue to CAP ground teams.
Say hello to my little friend...
Nothing else compares after you have pickled a few thousand rounds through one of these.
Nah, I'll go with a BAR, or a M-60.
On second thought, the Vulcan looks much better.
Springfield XD. <3
Springfield, Rock Island, and Thompson Arms all have 1911A1's parkerized, military versions brand new that can be had for a little over $300.00 through the right sources.
H&K USP in .45ACP. I love mine. If I needed a second weapon, I'll tip my hat to the Springfield XD suggestion. Those are very nice also.
You need to be very cautious about your role. Are you a medic first, or an entry team member. If they are serious, they need to send you to a Tactical Medic School. That is a must.
A few schools are.....
HSS International
CONTOMS
Medic Up
From the way you are portraying it, I would be a little concerned, nothing against you, but I would be concerned about a team that wants to load down an medic with weapons right out of the gate. Have you ever been a SWAT member before? I dont mean military, I mean civilian police? I was a Marine SRT member, and they are totally different. Not in their tactics, but in how those tactics are employed.
If you are new to TEMS (Tactical Emergency Medicine Service), I would stay away from the sub gun or any long gun for that mattter until you have a lot of experience under your belt. I would even advise against you even making entry at all. Medics generally stage at the entry point, or near the entry point. They usually dont make entry as part of the team. If they are offering you the opportunity to carry a pistol, then I would do that only. It sounds to me like they are trying to find a way to get another entry team member who happens to be a medic. I would be a little concerned if it were me about how fast they are pushing you. That raises a red flag. If you begin making entry, you are going to find yourself tied up in a situation where you cannot free yourself in the event of them needing the medic ., ie. covering an open door, suspect, or pinned down in an engagement or worse, as the victim yourself.
As far as where you carry your weapon? Everyone is giving their suggestions, however, it depends on what you are carring as far as medical equipment. Again, a good school followed by realistic training will help you figure out where you pistol needs to go.
Carrying a sub gun brings with it a lot of issues. You need to have conitnuous training in weapons retention. Also, your weapon, if you are treating a suspect, is now going to be in reach of your suspect, or unguarded on your back while you have your head down treating your patient. I treated a suspect who had been shot in the neck during a Hostage Rescue. While I was treating him, he sprang up and the fight was on, and my MP-5 was swinging around hitting everything in its path. If youve never had a chest slung sub-gun crack you in the "equipment" stand by! One difference though, is I was a SWAT member first, and an EMT second. The real medics waiting outside the entry point until the all clear was given.
TEMS is a totally separate role in SWAT operations. And it is often mis understood by medics with little of no experience in tactical operations, and is often GREATLY misunderstood by cops.
Your job as a medic is safety, and you can be an extremely effective tool in lowering liablity as well. It sounds to me from your post that they themselves are not familiar with the role of TEMS on a tactical team. When I taught the course, this was a huge deal. But what I did see, was that agencies were the exact opposite of the one you are working with. They were very cautious about arming their medics.
When it comes to your firearms, if they decide to fully outfit you with a sub gun and a pistol, guess what? You are an entry team member. You need to go to SWAT school. If they dont send you to SWAT School..... DO NOT MAKE ENTRY AS PART OF THE TEAM! YOU WILL GET YOURSELF SUED FOR MILLIONS IF SOMETHING HAPPENS!!!!! AND YOU WILL LOSE!
SWAT entries are so fluid and dynamic, unless you have been trained, and continue training, your asking for trouble.
And you need to be afforded the opportunity to train with the team, whenever they train. However, on top of their regular firearms and tactics training, you also need to train with local TEMS members and attend training related to that. And stay away from the bean bag gun, thats not your responsibility. Medics, if they are not careful can end up as pack mules.
Tactical medicine, if you have not been involved in it, is nothing even close to what you do on an ambulance.
As far as pistols go. Wheel guns are thing of the past. What ever frame you choose, it MUST have a tac light. I carried a .45 cal Sig P-220.
Uniforms. Mant TEMS medics tend to wear something completely differnent. My team wore all black from head to toe. Our medics wore blue with "MEDIC" on their back.
You are in a position to do a lot of good for your team as a medic. In the three shootings I have been one of the first things the crooks lawyer asked is how long did it take for my client to recieve medical aid. That was the argument in the North Hollywood bank robbery. The lawyers argued that medical aid wasnt given to tehir "client" in a timely manner. Hence....LAPD lost the suit.
You have the opportunity to really run with this it sounds like. You need to take the lead on restraining yourself, in turn protecting your team from putting you in a position they may not be aware of. Take it slow, and you can really have a TON o' FUN. But all it takes is one mess up to screw you and your team for life.
SWAT is a violent aspect of police work. Lawyers parade photos of menacing cops in black terrorising people in their homes. And nothing is greater than having your attorney stand up and say, "Mr. Smith, what is your role on the team?" And the jury hears you say, "I am a medic."
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury....These cops care so much about people, they even bring their OWN medic to help the bad guy just in case he gets hurt."
I carried sugar- free suckers and small stuffed animals in my pack to give to the suspects kids. The kids loved it. I would walk over to them, make sure you take off your helmet and your hood, and open my pack. Then let them pick which one they wanted. Because the kids DO know where daddy keeps his gun and his dope, and they'll tell you anything for a sucker!
Again, I dont know what your experience is, so that is what I would advise based on my training and experience.
More on topic...
I carry a Glock 23 and I carry 24/7, except when I am in my CAP uniform. I vault my weapon in my car at CAP functions.
I would prefer to carry a well made 1911, but when I consider the cost for a concealed carry weapon the G23 was a good blend of what i was looking for,
I drop no less than 200 rounds every month for P&P and I love my glock. I dont carry condition 1 however because something inside me just doesn't trust the lack of a mechanical safety.
Besides, the fraction of a second it takes me to rack the slide once I clear leather gives me that final opportunity to consider what I may be about to do and there is no way the weapon can AD if there isn't a round chambered.
I carry 2 13 round mags and I keep my weapon in a Bianchi Carry-Lok holster with a positive lock.
Quote from: DHollywood on July 11, 2007, 08:18:57 PM
More on topic...
I carry a Glock 23 and I carry 24/7, except when I am in my CAP uniform. I vault my weapon in my car at CAP functions.
I would prefer to carry a well made 1911, but when I consider the cost for a concealed carry weapon the G23 was a good blend of what i was looking for,
I drop no less than 200 rounds every month for P&P and I love my glock. I dont carry condition 1 however because something inside me just doesn't trust the lack of a mechanical safety.
Besides, the fraction of a second it takes me to rack the slide once I clear leather gives me that final opportunity to consider what I may be about to do and there is no way the weapon can AD if there isn't a round chambered.
I carry 2 13 round mags and I keep my weapon in a Bianchi Carry-Lok holster with a positive lock.
Doug:
How are you going to employ your weapon if:
1. You get grabbed from behind, and one arm is immobilized by an attacker, or
2. The perpetrator shoots first and immobilizes your arm with a hit, or
3. You are attacked with a knife, and you use your weak arm for defense while you draw?
Talk to some folks who have been in gunfights. I think most of them will tell you to keep one in the cooker.
DHollywood.
Are you a law enforcement officer? Ive never met a Law Enforcement officer who advocated not carrying a round in the chamber whether on or off duty. In fact, it goes against everything taught in modern police tactics. I find it odd that you carry a weapon you dont "trust" completely in every way.
Simply, your going to carry a round in the chamber if your going to operate in a SWAT/LE environment. There are no exceptions. I cant think of any SWAT member who would want you on their team if you had that mindset. In all three of my shootings there was time to chamber a round. Officer involved shootings involve muscle memory and gross motor skills. If you try to draw, chamber your weapon and take a "fraction of a second" to consider what your about to do...you going to be dead, or your going to cause someone else or your partners, to die. I guess I should add that I carried a .40 Glock 22 for several years on and off duty as well.
When you start your post with "More on topic" you are implying I went "off" topic. The mans last post asked for the advice and opinions of those with that experience. I have been a TEMS Medic, have instructed TEMS, and carried an MP-5 while acting as a SWAT member and a TEMS Medic. He made a statement that they are "pushing" him to carry a sub machine gun which to me is a concern. In reading his post, and having worked in that environment for several years, this was the oportunity to relate that there is much more to being a Tactical Medic than simply "should I" or "should I not" carry a particular weapon.
To be fair, this has gone to a more swat/le thread, the intention was you liked to have shoot, and that is not what I wanted.
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 09:35:46 PM
To be fair, this has gone to a more swat/le thread, the intention was you liked to have shoot, and that is not what I wanted.
If we can disabuse somebody from unsafe practices with weapons, we are doing a service to other members. Maybe saving their lives.
Not having a round chambered is unsafe? ??? I also think that not trusting a non-mechanical safety is a good thing too. It may not be for SWAT, but most here won't be SWAT.
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 10:01:13 PM
Not having a round chambered is unsafe? ??? I also think that not trusting a non-mechanical safety is a good thing too. It may not be for SWAT, but most here won't be SWAT.
In the 15 years or so after my fathers department went semi-auto and before he retired, he carried his weapon with a round chambered and NO safety engaged. He also had excellent trigger and muzzle discipline. There is an argument to be made that if someone were to get his sidearm away from him, having a safety or not having a round racked would given him a moment to react....thats assuming that every thug who might take his sidearm DIDNT know how to operate a firearm. Fact is, (and a bit of a sad fact, actually) that alot of people could pick up a semiauto they found laying on the sidewalk and rack one into the chamber. Fact is, I have yet to meet a LEO who doesnt carry his duty weapon with a round chambered and any available safety OFF. Most of them have advised me that "yes, we have a safety function on our weapons...its called a holster." Ive also been trained myself that muzzle and trigger discipline are extraordinarily effective safeties. I also know thats why I carry an ASP, because in a struggle for my weapon, my gun hand gets locked on my weapon in a death grip and the other hand goes to my ASP. It has been my experience that someone sprayed with OC can keep struggling, and while a subject struck with an ASP can as well, getting thunked in the collar bone, shoulder or elbow (I tend to shy away from the skull as that swings toward deadly force on the continuum) with a steel rod tends to take the fight out of a person rather quickly. Flame Away, gentlemen.
I was a policeman for 25 years, the last 11 of which I carried a 9mm semiauto. Specifically, a Sig-Sauer P226. Nice gun, except for no guts. You needed multiple bullet hits to get a nitwit's attention.
NEVER would I carry a semi-auto without one round in the cooker.
Yes, it is not safe.
Trying to rack one when your life is on the line is suicidal.
It takes too long, and is audible, so the perpetrator knows you are about to employ deadly force, and will shoot you first.
Please Aaron, if you are serious about defending yourself, reconsider your defensive posture.
Rogue Leader....People can still feel free to post their choices of weapons. I didnt change the topic, I was responding to someone asking for advice from people who had done something. Although, I will admit he did ask for a PM, I chose to post it here.
SAR Med.
If you are fighting to retain your gun, that is a deadly force encounter. You dont hit them with your baton, while your fighting to retain your weapon, you pull out your knife that you should carry on your off side and stab them in the chest with it.
Have you ever actually engaged someone with an ASP in real life? Dont be fooled......I have put all my strength into ASP stikes on the street and had people not so much as flinch. and I dont carry my pistol on SAFE....Ever. The S&W TSW .45
Maybe I gave more than what SAR Meed asked for, but I stand by it.
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 11, 2007, 11:40:08 PM
Rogue Leader....People can still feel free to post their choices of weapons. I didnt change the topic, I was responding to someone asking for advice from people who had done something. Although, I will admit he did ask for a PM, I chose to post it here.
SAR Med.
If you are fighting to retain your gun, that is a deadly force encounter. You dont hit them with your baton, while your fighting to retain your weapon, you pull out your knife that you should carry on your off side and stab them in the chest with it.
Have you ever actually engaged someone with an ASP in real life? Dont be fooled......I have put all my strength into ASP stikes on the street and had people not so much as flinch. and I dont carry my pistol on SAFE....Ever. The S&W TSW .45
Maybe I gave more than what SAR Meed asked for, but I stand by it.
Flying Pig-
I for one appreciate your answer to my question and appreciate your opinions about how I can best keep myself safe.
As for those that feel he hijacked the thread- unbunch your knickers and take a deep breath.
Quote from: DKruse on July 11, 2007, 07:06:28 PM
H&K USP in .45ACP. I love mine. If I needed a second weapon, I'll tip my hat to the Springfield XD suggestion. Those are very nice also.
another excellent one...HK USP <3 :)
Sorry I haven't replied in like 24 hours, but I've been in FTO school all week which is a change from my usual night time schedule...
Excellent points made by Flying Pig, an obvious BTDT. I've got lots of experience shooting, making room/building entries and as an EMT. However, all on a different scale. Sgt. Savage brought up an excellent point that I preach day in and day out. It doesn't matter if you've got a 40mm MK19, if you can't get well aimed shots into your target, you may as well bring a knife to a gun fight. As they say, aim small miss small. I was taught, trained, re-trained, adjusted, re-adjusted and instructed by lots of "experts". From plank owners to door kickers, and the number one thing I feel benefited me the most was starting at close distances and working my way out.
If you can't get a quarter-sized shot group at 10 feet, then how do you expect to get it at 20 feet? Ranges are "perfect conditions" for shooting and are no substitute for realistic training, but you have to become absolutely comfortable with your weapon as well as make it second nature to acquire a good site picture.
If you expect to shoot under duress, which is what we should all plan for, then you need to practice that way. Everything from putting "snapcaps" in with your live ammo to practice immediate action drills for a "down weapon" to shooting through windows. And while your hearing is important, I always made my team do one AOP (Action On Principal) drill without hearing protection, so in real life, when the rounds start popping, we would know what to expect.
As for the safety and round in the chamber that someone mentioned, if you're carrying a firearm for protection or as part of your duties, you are only setting yourself up for failure (read: death). I work with Navy MAs (Master at Arms), the Navy's version of MPs. When they draw their weapons, I make them do a standard functions check prior to loading. Just last week we got a new seaman in so I made her draw her weapon and engage "targets" as if she would in real life. Guess what she didn't do? She failed to switch off the safety. She just came from 9 weeks of training and the very first time she drew her weapon she failed to kill her advesary.
When I carry my Beretta on duty, safety is off. When off duty, I carry my Glock, which doesn't have a safety lever, but of course, I've got a round chambered and ready to kill. I say kill, why, because you don't shoot to injure. You shoot to kill.
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 03:28:20 PM
Nah, I'll go with a BAR, or a M-60.
You won't say that if you have to carry those heavy SOBs
Spent 6 months as a 60 gunner. 23 lbs plus combat load of at least 400 rounds at 7 lbs per box. Thank God for AGs, Ammo Bearers and new guys to carry extra ammo.
I like the 240B that replaced the M60 better though.
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 10:01:13 PM
Not having a round chambered is unsafe? ??? I also think that not trusting a non-mechanical safety is a good thing too. It may not be for SWAT, but most here won't be SWAT.
I've carried firearms, long and short, almost everyday since 1973 and have yet to have one go off when I didn't want it to go off. I was taught a long, long time ago that the one true safety device is the one between your ears.
Talk to your testing officer, I think he has a copy of some of Jeff Coopers books and he would be glad to loan one of them to you. Read and understand the four rules of gun handling.
My preferred carry gun is an HK USP Compact in .45 although I have been carrying an HK P7M8 lately and used to compete with the 1911. Talk to your Squadron Commander about shooting M1911's - he was taught by a pretty good instructor back when he was a cadet.
Quote from: Stonewall on July 12, 2007, 01:29:40 AM
Spent 6 months as a 60 gunner. 23 lbs plus combat load of at least 400 rounds at 7 lbs per box. Thank God for AGs, Ammo Bearers and new guys to carry extra ammo.
I like the 240B that replaced the M60 better though.
I humped the pig for better than a year and never could find a comfortable way to carry it. The 240B is after my time.
I was a Heavy Maching Gunner in the Marines.....gott a love the 60. The 240 was a great weapon, but a pain to carry. Especially with the flex mount and the tri pod. But nothing beats the Ma' Deuce.
No, I am not a LEO. But I respect the hell out of the job you guys do.
I have competed in SWAT competitions as part of civilian tactical teams (read PMC) and have over 200 hours of Entry and Recovery training and IF I was doing that job yes I would be condition 1. (That does not inclde the MOUT training in the Army... but thats nothing like civil LEO tactics.... you guys don't supress a hallway with a 240B...)
But I'm not and I don't. Fortunately I don't have to walk out the door every day in a job where I might have to shoot.
The great thing about this Country is you can carry your way and I will carry my way. I carefully considered my choices in how I carry and I wasn't advocating anyone to do anything, just telling you how I do it. ( I do practice racking the slide as part of my drills so its in my muscle memory every bit as much as squeezing the trigger).
I'm just thankful to live in a State that allows such liberal CCW for its law abiding citizens.
I pulled a couple of tours as a Marine Corps legal officer back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Even back then there was the philosophy that a weapon should have a round chambered and the safety off so it would be readily available in an emergency.
Every year I did one or two investigations on self inflicted gunshot wounds.
I'm slightly intrigued in a Private Security Company serving Search and Arrest Warrants in the first place, but I digress.
I am slightly partial to my Walther P-99 .40 S&W. Unfortunately since my immigration to FL I've learned that Security can only carry .38 and 9mm. So I'm currently looking at the Springfield XD (already fired one like it a lot) and the S&W M&P. Who knows.
I've also qualified with the Remington 870 but don't use it often.
Shot the MP5 and M16/M4 most of my career in the Marine Corps. Both great weapon systems.
But I think I will agree with most here, Favorite pistol, M1911, specifically the MEU(SOC) Variant.
Quote from: Skyray on July 12, 2007, 03:02:50 PM
I pulled a couple of tours as a Marine Corps legal officer back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Even back then there was the philosophy that a weapon should have a round chambered and the safety off so it would be readily available in an emergency.
Every year I did one or two investigations on self inflicted gunshot wounds.
enjoy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-yT5NC4cPM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-yT5NC4cPM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yQg_C-reI&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yQg_C-reI&NR=1)
//
I gotta ask, is it an old war movie thing? What's the deal with the 1911 thing? The basic model is nearly a century old. Aside from a $1,100 Wilson Combat or Les Baer, I've never shot one that I considered to be a great gun. Considering the advances in machining and design that we've seen since the advent of the 1911, I just can't see sticking with a low capacity platform when there are so many other options. What am I missing?
I love th 1911, I own one, and shoot very well with it. However, I do also enjoy having 16 rounds in my pistol.
My department issues the S&W TSW .45 which is a 9 round capacity. And unfortunatley, we dont have a choice in what we carry. So instad of carrying 3 mags and 46 rounds, I have to carry 5 stainless steel mags to get 46 rounds, which is what I do. We are also ONLY allowed to carry the S&W CS45 off duty as well.
Hello All,
I am a daily reader of CAP Talk, but this is my first post. I am a long time CAP member having just passed my 20th anniversary as a member.
My carry weapon of choice is either my Beretta 8357 (.357 SIG) or my Glock 23 (.40 S&W). My favorite pistol is my Beretta 92F (9mm), but that is too large to conceal carry easily, in my opinion.
I have attached a picture (hopefully) of my newest toy. It is Bushmaster's model of the M4A3. I added an aluminum CAA 4-rail handguard, Tango Down grips (fore, aft, rail), a 7in ACE skeleton stock, AIMPOINT COMP 2 scope w/ mount, & a BEAMSHOT laser. I sent the handguards, stock, & a magazine to a company called Ko-Tonics in NC to get painted OD (to match the grips) w/ CeraKote. I am very pleased with how it all came together, but now I can't bring myself to shoot it...it's too pretty!
[attachment deleted by admin]
Action photos:
Throwing lead down range from my M4:
(http://cadetlife.cadetstuff.org/data/media/7/M4_2.jpg)
Transitioned to the Sig Sauer P229R DAK .357 Sig.
(http://cadetlife.cadetstuff.org/data/media/7/Sig229a.jpg)
Oh yeah, I haven't seen this pic in a while. Had a "shorty" upper as an option for motorcade operations. Don't have it anymore, but it certainly made things easier when riding in the rear seat as a "window licker".
(http://cadetlife.cadetstuff.org/data/media/7/M4A1.jpg)
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on July 12, 2007, 07:04:50 PM
I gotta ask, is it an old war movie thing? What's the deal with the 1911 thing? The basic model is nearly a century old. Aside from a $1,100 Wilson Combat or Les Baer, I've never shot one that I considered to be a great gun. Considering the advances in machining and design that we've seen since the advent of the 1911, I just can't see sticking with a low capacity platform when there are so many other options. What am I missing?
Somebody get me some kindling and a stake... here's another heretic that needs burning!
The M-1911 has its deficiencies, not the least of which is its lack of a double-action feature. But I have carried one in defense of the United States (and mostly in defense of me) since I was just a little soldier. The weapon fits my hand like a glove, and its one of the few that one can snap-shoot fast and instinctively with great accuracy. Plus it has a satisfying bang and recoil, and for the Communist/Terrorist/Criminal/Other Miscreant (Specify)___, one hit anywhere from a .45 will bring abut the worst day (and usually the last day) of his life.
Firing the M-1911 after shooting some Sig Sauer or such is like coming back to an old girlfriend, and wondering why you ever left her.
Interesting note:
In 1992, I was a NG MP Company commander, and traditionally carried the .45 with the admin number #1.
Which was a venerable WWII era weapon. It bore markings indicating that it was made by the Singer Sewing Machine Company, which had a contract with Uncle Sugar during the war.
It was the sweetest shooting thing Uncle Sam ever loaned to me. When we were activated during the LA Riots, we were stationed at the LAPD Academy, and the rangemasters there kept drooling over the weapon. They told me it was worth upwards of $5k in its condition.
Of course, not long after that, we converted to Berettas and had to turn in our .45s.
I'm sure that weapon is a fish reef somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico now. :'(
You Guys are need to get a grip, I mean it, what in sams H*$## are you even worried or discussing weapons in CAP, we are not cops, military police or "Storm troopers", we are an emergency Service outfit the USAF Auxiliary of the USAF, not Green Beret, or USMC snipers, guys if you need a weapon use this
(//)
Quote from: wingnut on July 13, 2007, 09:08:58 AM
You Guys are need to get a grip, I mean it, what in sams H*$## are you even worried or discussing weapons in CAP, we are not cops, military police or "Storm troopers", we are an emergency Service outfit the USAF Auxiliary of the USAF, not Green Beret, or USMC snipers, guys if you need a weapon use this
Actually, many of us are those things you list above. I for one am two; Police and Military Police (USAF Secutiry Police in the Nat'l Guard). It's about CAP volunteers that have full-time jobs that form a commonality.
Actually, Wingnut, CAP duty is the only time I am not armed. I am a retired policeman, and I have been carrying a sidearm 24/7 since I was 22.
Quote from: wingnut on July 13, 2007, 09:08:58 AM
You Guys are need to get a grip, I mean it, what in sams H*$## are you even worried or discussing weapons in CAP, we are not cops, military police or "Storm troopers", we are an emergency Service outfit the USAF Auxiliary of the USAF, not Green Beret, or USMC snipers, guys if you need a weapon use this
(//)
I prefer hands-on, that is a loooonnnggg distance one.
What?????
Thats why its posted in the "Lobby". None of what we are talking about, in any of the posts, has been related to CAP. In fact, there are many posts on this site that have nothing to do with CAP, other than the members here are CAP. I am in Law Enforcement and spent 8 years in the military. Also, I am armed 24/7 as a result of that. Guns are a huge part of my life. Many of us here are law enforcement or military or retired and have things in common outside of CAP that we discuss here.
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 13, 2007, 05:06:50 PM
What?????
Thats why its posted in the "Lobby". None of what we are talking about, in any of the posts, has been related to CAP. In fact, there are many posts on this site that have nothing to do with CAP, other than the members here are CAP. I am in Law Enforcement and spent 8 years in the military. Also, I am armed 24/7 as a result of that. Guns are a huge part of my life. Many of us here are law enforcement or military or retired and have things in common outside of CAP that we discuss here.
Snips and snails and puppy dog tails; that's what little boys are made of.
Men, on the other hand, are made from testosterone, alcohol, gunpowder, and gasoline.
Real men substitute 100 LL or Jet Fuel for the gasoline. All other ingredients remain equal.
Quote from: wingnut on July 13, 2007, 09:08:58 AM
You Guys are need to get a grip, I mean it, what in sams H*$## are you even worried or discussing weapons in CAP, we are not cops, military police or "Storm troopers", we are an emergency Service outfit the USAF Auxiliary of the USAF, not Green Beret, or USMC snipers, guys if you need a weapon use this
(//)
I'm not an LEO but thanks to the forsight of the writers of the US Constitution and the correct political environment here in Arizona I carry concealed 24/7 - excpet when I'm on CAP duty of course. I don't try to be a cop but I have no problem defending my own...
Cant get a pic to load >:(
(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/XDweb.jpg)
Accessories for the day. :)
Here are my favorites from what I own
Rifle
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_t1_f.html.
Pistol.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg109-e.htm
the mp-5 a3
the M1911a1
Ahhhhh...the A3..
I carried that exact set up for about 4 years....siiiiiigh
Quote from: JC004 on July 15, 2007, 07:49:33 AM
(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/XDweb.jpg)
Accessories for the day. :)
Hey JC...
Do you own an XD? If so, do you like it? Is it comfortable to carry?
I am debating my next purchase & have narrowed it down to the XD or Smith M&P in .40 S&W.
Just wondering...thanks!
Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 03:09:27 PM
Hey JC...
Do you own an XD? If so, do you like it? Is it comfortable to carry?
I am debating my next purchase & have narrowed it down to the XD or Smith M&P in .40 S&W.
Just wondering...thanks!
I do...that's mine there. I love it. Comfort depends on your build, clothing, and holster. That is a Service model (4" barrel), which is about as big as I would want to carry. There is also the subcompact (3" barrel). The choice of the Service model for me was a matter of 1. large hands (comfort and control) and 2. long-range accuracy (less important for most self-defense situations, but more important for various target shooting). I'd look at both sizes and see what you like. Various XDness:
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php (http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php)
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/glockxd_032107/index.html (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/glockxd_032107/index.html)
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/springfield_armory_xd_series/ (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/springfield_armory_xd_series/)
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_XD,,00.html (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_XD,,00.html)
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/springfieldxd_061206/ (http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/springfieldxd_061206/)
http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/xd_0722/ (http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/xd_0722/)
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/xd_010305/ (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/xd_010305/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tWlbikAqdI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tWlbikAqdI)
Thanks!
I'm not a fan of subcompact guns...there just too small. I'm pretty comfortable with the size of the XD in the service model. I've held one while window shopping at Gander Mountain & I was pleased with how it felt. Not owning one I have obviously never shot or carried one. I was just wondering if you owned one & what you thought of it.
I usually carry a Beretta 8357 or a Glock 23, so I think the XD would be pretty comfortable to me. Depending on the time of year I either carry in an inside the pants or shoulder holster. I have a Beretta 92F & 96, but I find them too large to carry comfortably.
I'm torn between the XD & the Smith M&P. I really like them both! Maybe I'll get one this year & one next year.
Thanks for the feedback!
Not a cop, nor a serviceman. Do hold a Kansas CCL.
Depending on the day, what I'm wearing, where I'm going, weather, astrological alignment of the stars and planets, etc., I carry the following
1. Browning Hi-Power carried cocked and locked in a Bianchi IWB clip holster or Galco Summer Comfort. It's loaded with fourteen Federal 124 grain Hydrashoks in the pistol and a spare 10 round clip in my pocket.
2. Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911A1 carried cocked and locked in the same holsters as the Browning, they interchange. It's loaded with eight Remington 230 grain JHP's in the pistol and 2 spare 7 round clips. I've tried the 8 round clips and I've had feeding problems.
3. Smith and Wesson 36 Chief's Special in a 60's vintage Chic Gaylord 8 Ball scabbard (extra credit if you can tell the class who Chic Gaylord was). It's loaded with Speer 135 grain +P Gold Dots with 2 speed loaders in a pocket.
Some people call it a Kaiser blade I like to call it a Slingblade
Quote from: wingnut on July 13, 2007, 09:08:58 AM
You Guys are need to get a grip, I mean it, what in sams H*$## are you even worried or discussing weapons in CAP, we are not cops, military police or "Storm troopers", we are an emergency Service outfit the USAF Auxiliary of the USAF, not Green Beret, or USMC snipers, guys if you need a weapon use this
(//)
These ideas in some minds are fantasies but the reality is that I have seen too many CAP members carry concelled firearms on CAP activities. I have seen knives that have no practical purpose on a web belt for what we do. I have been in LE all my adult life, the first year I carried my weapon everywhere...than something happened...maybe I grew up. Anyone seen our folks with lights and sirens? I think what people lose site of is when you expose your firearm, you better be prepared to use lethal force. That is a huge responsibility. That's why I have a great pair of running shoes.
This is supposed to be something for people to enjoy talking about. This isn't about CAP. It happens to be here, because I'm not on any other forums. I think that we all, or should realize that during CAP activities, we are not armed. Many of those here expressly note that they are not.
Let people enjoy their passions.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 24, 2007, 03:16:10 AM
Quote from: wingnut on July 13, 2007, 09:08:58 AM
You Guys are need to get a grip, I mean it, what in sams H*$## are you even worried or discussing weapons in CAP, we are not cops, military police or "Storm troopers", we are an emergency Service outfit the USAF Auxiliary of the USAF, not Green Beret, or USMC snipers, guys if you need a weapon use this
(//)
These ideas in some minds are fantasies but the reality is that I have seen too many CAP members carry concelled firearms on CAP activities. I have seen knives that have no practical purpose on a web belt for what we do. I have been in LE all my adult life, the first year I carried my weapon everywhere...than something happened...maybe I grew up. Anyone seen our folks with lights and sirens? I think what people lose site of is when you expose your firearm, you better be prepared to use lethal force. That is a huge responsibility. That's why I have a great pair of running shoes.
We do get a few dorks who want to put sirens on their cars to go rescue someone who has crashed 6-8 hours before the call even went out.
But I spent 25 years as a cop, and after the stuff I've seen I don't go noplace without a gun (except, of course, on CAP functions).
Nothing fancy, just a good .38 concealed, and a real nice G.I .45 for home defense.
Maybe when I was "stuck" in the city for a year I felt safe because the City of NY had a ban on handguns. Actually my greatest fear was getting robbed and having the thief see my shield and use me as a trophy. I quit carrying my OD weapon and shield...I always had good luck getting out of a ticket anyway. Than there was the fear of somebody hunting me down at home and waisting me there. Locks, bars, alarms... never happened (yet).
They really don't go after the eyes in the sky. I have a very uncommon last name and trying to keep it out of the public record is hopeless. I am more worried about my sisters than me. In all the years I never made a bad arrest, didn't need to, to many fish in the sea. You hear stories of officers never drawing their weapon, I have, never fired a round. But just as odd to some, I never had anyone say "I'm going to get you". Maybe says something about being honest and fair.
One other point...never wanted to be off duty and draw down to make an arrest and have my wife and kids with me. No gun...I just make a good (expert) witness. Remember my rules... On Duty Glock, off duty...running shoes. Rule #3 Stay out of bad neighborhoods off duty!
Interesting philosophy.......You actually felt "safe" in a city with a handgun ban?
Heres an alternate set of rules......On duty S&W TSW .45, off duty, S&W CS45. Id like to insure I have the opportunity to be good witness and maybe prevent a few victims. Ive drawn my weapon once off duty to prevent a fleeing hit and run suspect from driving away with a car load of someone elses kids. Just yelling for him to stop didn't seem to convey the urgency of my order. Stood in line off duty at a restaurant with parolee-rapist I had shot about 2 years earlier. He's the one who decided to go somewhere else.
Ive been in 3 officer involved shootings, and two others where I was directly shot at but couldn't return fire. Never made a bad arrest, but have had several people tell me they would "get me". None have. Although I did have one guy I had continual contact with describe my wife to me once. When we were finished I recall him apologizing for any misunderstanding. Ive never found many dirt bags who really care that Im "honest and fair" although they seem to all talk about some sort of distorted "respect" that I have yet to figure out.
Really never felt that unsafe in NY except late at night in some of the subways...just tried to avoid those areas...but wouldn't let my wife roam around much of the City. As a rule..the gun laws of New York City keeps the honest folks from handguns...dumb!
I feel just as safe in Florida where the CCW laws are liberal, as I recall the idea of gun battles in the streets never materialized. My first years on the street were in upper middle class, than went to white collar than high end drug work...most of my arrests were upper middle class white collar, not white trash. Never understood why anyone would say "thanks" after getting a ticket or making an arrest. Just like in real estate, location, location, location. Trust me, if I worked and lived in the inner city, correctional officer or a small two horse town, I would likely carry my weapon...but as in the city, I avoid those areas. I did once chase a kid and detain him who threw an egg at my neighbors house...but that is a family matter!
You are fortunate, SARPilot.
I worked inner city most of my career. But in any case, after seeing what the thugs do to people that they can dominate, I seldom go anywhere without a pistol. I definitely don't go into banks or carry outs unarmed. I have had threats against me and my family, once from the family of a dead child who ran in front of a car. They failed to undestand that the driver could not be charged when their kid ran into the path of his car. The father was waiting for me with a gun in his hand for me to come home from work. As luck would have it, I had something to do after work, and came home by a different route. I saw him before he saw me, and I arrested him. I'm just glad I came home before my kids came home from school that day.
I carry a gun. You do what makes you feel right.
As I tell all my juniors...seniority has its privileges. Location location location. Learned early on to make it to a full retirement one needs to get off the streets. I lucked out, met a few good, forward looking people and with a pilot rating and being in the right spot, was able to get off the ground. I have always heard the stories of guys that never drew their weapon, never believed that. I am amazed that there is another world where you really have to wear your weapon in your own neighborhood to protect youself. I know it exists, I am lucky to have removed myself from that environment. I get paid the big bucks to stay 500 feet above harms way, the guys on the ground get 50 cents on my dollar. Never really thought that was fair, hope they don't change it before I retire.
removed and sent as a PM.
please add the M-4 A1 and Glock 45 with light
This may be tame stuff for you young whipper-snappers and your high speed gaming, but try this anyway. Very little beats the sheer joy of cannon....
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/future-weapons/games/cannon/cannon.html
Major Lord
Hey, cool. Thanks. I bookmarked the site. ;D
Loved the game Maj. Lord. First score 91,300. Gotta try it again.
Quote from: DHollywood on July 11, 2007, 08:18:57 PM
I carry a Glock 23
I dont carry condition 1 however because something inside me just doesn't trust the lack of a mechanical safety.
G22 on duty, G23 off duty,
with a round chambered ;) in a serpa holster and no less than 2 knives. One for multi-purpose use and one for self-defense.
Quote from: Stonewall on July 12, 2007, 12:47:37 AMI've got a round chambered and ready to kill. I say kill, why, because you don't shoot to injure. You shoot to kill.
As long you don't say that in front of the jury. ;D Otherwise you shoot to stop the threat. ;)
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 24, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
I felt safe because the City of NY had a ban on handguns.
I don't know if I misunderstood your statement or if you left a word or two out. But, you feel safe in a city that bans handguns? You know that only affects the honest law abiding citizens, because the bad guys will continue to carry guns? Therefore leaving you defenseless.
OK, this is mine. The biggest, baddest cannon on the block it ain't.
It's a S&W Model 39-2. I've had it for probably 30 years. I'm not LEO, or AD military.
I've taken a couple of defense classes with it, and have pumped a several thousand rounds thru it in practice. I reload my own ammo. I've put Pachmayr grips on it and had an orange insert put into the front sight. It's a single stack magazine as opposed to staggered stack, and the slimmer grip fits my smaller hand just right. I'm comfortable with the gun, and comfortable with what I can do with it. So for me, it's just right, and I enjoy shooting it.
I didn't want to have to do this. But here they are. The 1911 is for off duty and the big gigantic stainless steel boat anchor is Dept issue.
I like the M-107 by Barrett (model 95). It's a .50 caliber special application scoped rifle.
Hits personnel at 1500 meters and materiel targets out to 2000 meters.
"My spotter positively identified a target at 1400 meters carrying an RPG on a water tower. I engaged the target. The top half of the torso fell forward out of the tower and the lower portion remained in the tower." 325th PIR Sniper
I also enjoy the Jericho 941 Baby Eagle for short distance work. It has a great grip for a medium-sized hand and the impeccable reputation of Israeli gunsmith quality.
I like the baby eagles. The only problem is that they are heavier than the S&W I have to carry.
About the .45. I'm all about it, but I'm also all about other calibers and pistols.
Last night, an officer that I have trained with a few times was shot 5 times by a .45 and survived, to include a shot in the face. He was able to return fire and kill the suspect. All this started with a shoplifting at a local mall. Officer is in ICU with his jaw wired, they say he is still critical but expected to survive and recover.
Two officers: Rustin and Reston, hard not to confuse them. You can imagine when the call went out about the shooting, the confusion..."is it Reston or Rustin..." From the news article, I can't tell who got hit, but I understand it is Reston.
Online article (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=100886&GID=MFYfWk73sd3RPWhn2EEl7lVhLqlwJLkuLnY3bfMl9kQ%3D)
My point is while "size does matter", it is still about shot placement, wheter you're skilled and able to place shots in the right spot under duress, or just get lucky, you can shoot someone with a .45 in the face and not kill them. Or you can shoot someone with a .22 and kill'em dead with a shot in the heart.
Quote from: Stonewall on January 27, 2008, 06:32:00 PM
About the .45. I'm all about it, but I'm also all about other calibers and pistols.
Last night, an officer that I have trained with a few times was shot 5 times by a .45 and survived, to include a shot in the face. He was able to return fire and kill the suspect. All this started with a shoplifting at a local mall. Officer is in ICU with his jaw wired, they say he is still critical but expected to survive and recover.
Two officers: Rustin and Reston, hard not to confuse them. You can imagine when the call went out about the shooting, the confusion..."is it Reston or Rustin..." From the news article, I can't tell who got hit, but I understand it is Reston.
Online article (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=100886&GID=MFYfWk73sd3RPWhn2EEl7lVhLqlwJLkuLnY3bfMl9kQ%3D)
My point is while "size does matter", it is still about shot placement, wheter you're skilled and able to place shots in the right spot under duress, or just get lucky, you can shoot someone with a .45 in the face and not kill them. Or you can shoot someone with a .22 and kill'em dead with a shot in the heart.
May the perp burn in hell and a speedy recovery to the officer.
A quote from another board:
"Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else is Angels dancing on the head of a pin."
My daily carry duo:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2269/2219402321_ed32cc1cec.jpg?v=0)
BHP and 1 spare mag or the S&W36 with a speedloader in the pocket. Sometimes on special occasions, like trips after dark to Topeka, KC or Wichita I'll take both with the 36 acting as a New York reload.
Truck console has a S&W Sigma .40 with a spare clip, giving me 31 rounds of 180 grain Gold Dot goodness.
Rail Gun.
(http://www.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_Rail1.jpg)
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_RailGuns,,00.html
I considered building a smaller one once and almost did. Physics teacher said no way. He knew me all too well and knew I'd destroy something expensive or important. (I was very destructive physics student - most people wouldn't think you can get a marshmallow up to 250mph...proved them wrong.) He stopped letting students build large scale weapons after someone built a 20ft tall trebuchet that could launch a bowling ball over 100 yards.
Quote from: brasda91 on January 27, 2008, 04:07:38 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 24, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
I felt safe because the City of NY had a ban on handguns.
I don't know if I misunderstood your statement or if you left a word or two out. But, you feel safe in a city that bans handguns? You know that only affects the honest law abiding citizens, because the bad guys will continue to carry guns? Therefore leaving you defenseless.
There is not ban on weapons in NYC. That would go against the constitution. There are strict limits on ownership and carrying of weapons though.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 28, 2008, 03:28:16 AM
Quote from: brasda91 on January 27, 2008, 04:07:38 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 24, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
I felt safe because the City of NY had a ban on handguns.
I don't know if I misunderstood your statement or if you left a word or two out. But, you feel safe in a city that bans handguns? You know that only affects the honest law abiding citizens, because the bad guys will continue to carry guns? Therefore leaving you defenseless.
There is not ban on weapons in NYC. That would go against the constitution. There are strict limits on ownership and carrying of weapons though.
Yeah, the limits are so strict that only the rich AND politically connected can get them.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 28, 2008, 03:59:39 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 28, 2008, 03:28:16 AM
Quote from: brasda91 on January 27, 2008, 04:07:38 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 24, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
I felt safe because the City of NY had a ban on handguns.
I don't know if I misunderstood your statement or if you left a word or two out. But, you feel safe in a city that bans handguns? You know that only affects the honest law abiding citizens, because the bad guys will continue to carry guns? Therefore leaving you defenseless.
There is not ban on weapons in NYC. That would go against the constitution. There are strict limits on ownership and carrying of weapons though.
Yeah, the limits are so strict that only the rich AND politically connected can get them.
Actually... you usually have to be a business owner who can prove that there is real need to own a handgun. You can also own and carry one if you carry large amounts of money as part of your job/business (I believe over $50,000). There are other provisions out there as well. There are safety classes you must take and you must have an interview with the NYPD before being cleared as well.
Or you take a state like Va., where I had a CCW, their crime rates fell when they passed their CCW laws. If you were military, you automatically got one, and pretty much any other citizen without a criminal history.
Its sad to think that a citizen has to prove a need to own a gun before the government can decide if they agree.
^ Agreed!
I can't believe NYC is so weird like that.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 28, 2008, 02:25:20 AM
Rail Gun.
(http://www.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_Rail1.jpg)
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_RailGuns,,00.html
I considered building a smaller one once and almost did. Physics teacher said no way. He knew me all too well and knew I'd destroy something expensive or important. (I was very destructive physics student - most people wouldn't think you can get a marshmallow up to 250mph...proved them wrong.) He stopped letting students build large scale weapons after someone built a 20ft tall trebuchet that could launch a bowling ball over 100 yards.
Bowling Ball....100 yards....
I like you already......
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on January 28, 2008, 08:33:26 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 28, 2008, 02:25:20 AM
Rail Gun.
(http://www.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_Rail1.jpg)
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_RailGuns,,00.html
I considered building a smaller one once and almost did. Physics teacher said no way. He knew me all too well and knew I'd destroy something expensive or important. (I was very destructive physics student - most people wouldn't think you can get a marshmallow up to 250mph...proved them wrong.) He stopped letting students build large scale weapons after someone built a 20ft tall trebuchet that could launch a bowling ball over 100 yards.
Bowling Ball....100 yards....
I like you already......
That. Is. Cool.
My current firearm:
CZ 75 Compact in 9mm. I can control a 9mm and a .45 better than I can a .40, but most .45s are a bit too big for my hand.
Having been an Air Force brat, I still have a fondness for the M-61 20 mm 6 barrel. :D
Be very cautious of the 9mm. It is NOT a very powerful round. You will need multiple hits on target to have any effect. The 9mm is one notch above a bb gun, in my combat-seasoned opinion.
The 9mm is more properly classed with the .32, .380, and .25 caliber underpowered weapons. The king of underpowered, but underpowered nevertheless.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2008, 09:45:19 PM
Be very cautious of the 9mm. It is NOT a very powerful round. You will need multiple hits on target to have any effect. The 9mm is one notch above a bb gun, in my combat-seasoned opinion.
The 9mm is more properly classed with the .32, .380, and .25 caliber underpowered weapons. The king of underpowered, but underpowered nevertheless.
I concur, it is a pocket pistol round. Good for the girl friend gun, and at its best in a submachine gun. Fortunately most Cappers are not coppers....and don't need to ventilate anything more dangerous than flat rectangular people with numbers on them...
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on January 28, 2008, 09:59:48 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2008, 09:45:19 PM
Be very cautious of the 9mm. It is NOT a very powerful round. You will need multiple hits on target to have any effect. The 9mm is one notch above a bb gun, in my combat-seasoned opinion.
The 9mm is more properly classed with the .32, .380, and .25 caliber underpowered weapons. The king of underpowered, but underpowered nevertheless.
I concur, it is a pocket pistol round. Good for the girl friend gun, and at its best in a submachine gun. Fortunately most Cappers are not coppers....and don't need to ventilate anything more dangerous than flat rectangular people with numbers on them...
Major Lord
Handgun Stopping Power is a myth. There are no one shot magic loads on the market.
With that said, there are a number of 9mm loads that, in term of stopping ability, equal that of the .45 ACP and come really close to that of the .357 Magnum. Bullet design in the last few years has brought the 9mm into an equal defensive playing field.
From handloads.com:
9mm:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=All
9mm+P:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=16&Weight=All
9mm+P+
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=17&Weight=All
Compare the 1 shot stopping percentages to .45ACP:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All
.45ACP +P:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All
and .357 MAgnum:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All
Quote from: Major Lord on January 28, 2008, 09:59:48 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2008, 09:45:19 PM
Be very cautious of the 9mm. It is NOT a very powerful round. You will need multiple hits on target to have any effect. The 9mm is one notch above a bb gun, in my combat-seasoned opinion.
The 9mm is more properly classed with the .32, .380, and .25 caliber underpowered weapons. The king of underpowered, but underpowered nevertheless.
I concur, it is a pocket pistol round. Good for the girl friend gun, and at its best in a submachine gun. Fortunately most Cappers are not coppers....and don't need to ventilate anything more dangerous than flat rectangular people with numbers on them...
Major Lord
I agree my 9mm is not exactly a barnbuster, but I figure I'm better off with a 9 that I can shoot well than a .45 that I can't. Also, I'm not sure I can justify the expenditure for a .40, which I would like. :-\
I have to agree with Yuma. While, if given a choice, I'd take a .40 cal, but I'm not given a choice. And honestly, it would just be a "feel good" option more than anything else.
Many people have died from one 9mm round and many people have died from one .40, .45, .38 and .22. And like in my post above about a fellow officer being hit 5 times with a .45 at close range, to include 2 shots in the face, that just backs up many thoughts of shot placement over bullet size.
Please understand, I am not saying the heavier rounds are bad, worse than the 9mm or better. If given the option to take one shot and one shot only, I'd jump on a .45 in a second. But I'm confident if I had one shot with a 9mm and took a head shot or one directly in the heart, I'd kill the SOB.
Tell all the people killed with a 9mm that it's no good. That's all I'm saying.
AGAIN. I am not advocating the 9mm over others, just saying that it kills.
Quote from: Stonewall on January 28, 2008, 11:27:51 PM
I have to agree with Yuma. While, if given a choice, I'd take a .40 cal, but I'm not given a choice. And honestly, it would just be a "feel good" option more than anything else.
Many people have died from one 9mm round and many people have died from one .40, .45, .38 and .22. And like in my post above about a fellow officer being hit 5 times with a .45 at close range, to include 2 shots in the face, that just backs up many thoughts of shot placement over bullet size.
Please understand, I am not saying the heavier rounds are bad, worse than the 9mm or better. If given the option to take one shot and one shot only, I'd jump on a .45 in a second. But I'm confident if I had one shot with a 9mm and took a head shot or one directly in the heart, I'd kill the SOB.
Tell all the people killed with a 9mm that it's no good. That's all I'm saying.
AGAIN. I am not advocating the 9mm over others, just saying that it kills.
I agree it kills.
A policewoman, and very good friend of mine, confronted a thug armed with a .38 revolver. She got off one shot, and it pierced the heart. Even AFTER that shot, the thug got off 4 shots, all striking the officer. She is back to work now, but was off for more than a year.
In another case, two officers tried to arrest a thug in a motel room. He jumped off the bed (that he was sharing with a naked 12-year-old boy) and began firing a .380 at the police. He was hit with a total of ten 9mm bullets, mostly in the torso. He continued firing at the police until his weapon was empty. He died waiting for the ambulance. The only reason cops were not hurt was the fact that he was also using a lady's gun, and the officers' vests stopped the rounds.
One of the traffic cops I had lunch with every day was close to a domestic violence call, and went there to back up the street crews. The guy came out of the house, and when my friend told him to stop (he was headed for a car) he drew a .357 and fired one shot. My friend fired five 9mm shots at the suspect, and he fled into a wooded area behind the house. He managed to get about 100 yards into the woods, which is where we eventually found his body.
Just after I retired, the police department scrapped the 9mm and went to the .40 caliber. A 9mm is accurate, but you need multiple shots on target to have any effect. We began to train for "Tac-Tac" shooting when we transitioned to the 9mm. We never trained for multiple shots/hits with the .38 specials that we formerly carried.
"If you don't think a .22 can kill someone, you might be right. I've never tested it, but since you seem so confident, go stand against that wall, and let me put a few holes in you to test your theory."
-My firearms instructor
the .22 long rifle bullet kills more people every year than any other round on the market.
I cant site my source. Can anyone help
Quote from: isuhawkeye on January 29, 2008, 12:46:51 AM
the .22 long rifle bullet kills more people every year than any other round on the market.
I cant site my source. Can anyone help
I think the 9mm was the world's most frequently succesful ( if thats the right word...) killing pistol round, and the .22 was the most frequent round people were shot with in America. (not the most lethal, but they make up for it in quantity) There are lots and lots of .22's out there and I have seen lots of dead guys with holes from them. I forgot the name of the author of the definitive study, but someone out there will will remember it. If I had to tender a guess, I would say the 7.62 X 39mm round is probably the most common lethal GSW worldwide. ( Although I would happily like to think it is the 5.56)
Major Lord
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 28, 2008, 02:25:20 AM
I considered building a smaller one once and almost did. Physics teacher said no way. He knew me all too well and knew I'd destroy something expensive or important. (I was very destructive physics student - most people wouldn't think you can get a marshmallow up to 250mph...proved them wrong.) He stopped letting students build large scale weapons after someone built a 20ft tall trebuchet that could launch a bowling ball over 100 yards.
And thus the reason our school would call you guys the Hamilton nerd herd. ;)
Quote from: Major Lord on January 29, 2008, 01:57:42 AM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on January 29, 2008, 12:46:51 AM
the .22 long rifle bullet kills more people every year than any other round on the market.
I cant site my source. Can anyone help
I think the 9mm was the world's most frequently succesful ( if thats the right word...) killing pistol round, and the .22 was the most frequent round people were shot with in America. (not the most lethal, but they make up for it in quantity) There are lots and lots of .22's out there and I have seen lots of dead guys with holes from them. I forgot the name of the author of the definitive study, but someone out there will will remember it. If I had to tender a guess, I would say the 7.62 X 39mm round is probably the most common lethal GSW worldwide. ( Although I would happily like to think it is the 5.56)
Major Lord
One of the things that is most lethal about the .22 round is actually its own lack of power. Instead of shattering bone and moving smoothly through tissue it tends to bounce around inside the body, ripping it to pieces.
Coincidence: I'm currently taking a break from reloading .357 Magnums for my new Ruger GP100.
Tonight's recipe: 158 and 180 grain Hornady XTP's!
Bottom line: You use whatever you can reliably hit center mass using the best bullet in that caliber. Repeat if necessary. In an SD situation you may very well need to fire several shots before the BG goes down, the stats bear that out.
Quote from: tedda on January 29, 2008, 02:04:42 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 28, 2008, 02:25:20 AM
I considered building a smaller one once and almost did. Physics teacher said no way. He knew me all too well and knew I'd destroy something expensive or important. (I was very destructive physics student - most people wouldn't think you can get a marshmallow up to 250mph...proved them wrong.) He stopped letting students build large scale weapons after someone built a 20ft tall trebuchet that could launch a bowling ball over 100 yards.
And thus the reason our school would call you guys the Hamilton nerd herd. ;)
Nothing wrong with that :D
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2008, 09:45:19 PM
Be very cautious of the 9mm. It is NOT a very powerful round. You will need multiple hits on target to have any effect. The 9mm is one notch above a bb gun, in my combat-seasoned opinion.
The 9mm is more properly classed with the .32, .380, and .25 caliber underpowered weapons. The king of underpowered, but underpowered nevertheless.
Your concern is noted and appreciated. I did a lot of research before choosing the 9mm, and I'm comfortable with the trade offs. If you're talking FMJ rounds, then yeah, I can see "bb gun" reference, but they've come a long way with JHPs. A good read: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648/pg_1
There are some people who believe that you're only supposed to use a handgun to fight your way to your rifle. There's an endless supply of opinions out there, and that's a good thing.
Jamie:
The examples I cited were with JHP rounds. I have never seen policemen carry FMJ rounds, except on the range.
Quote from: Psicorp on January 29, 2008, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 28, 2008, 09:45:19 PM
Be very cautious of the 9mm. It is NOT a very powerful round. You will need multiple hits on target to have any effect. The 9mm is one notch above a bb gun, in my combat-seasoned opinion.
The 9mm is more properly classed with the .32, .380, and .25 caliber underpowered weapons. The king of underpowered, but underpowered nevertheless.
Your concern is noted and appreciated. I did a lot of research before choosing the 9mm, and I'm comfortable with the trade offs. If you're talking FMJ rounds, then yeah, I can see "bb gun" reference, but they've come a long way with JHPs. A good read: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648/pg_1
There are some people who believe that you're only supposed to use a handgun to fight your way to your rifle. There's an endless supply of opinions out there, and that's a good thing.
That sounds good in theory. However, in the 3 shootings I have been in, my rifle was locked in its rack in my car, and getting back to it wasn't an option and the scenario was over by the time I would have the chance.
For many of the people on this forum who carry off duty or concealed with your CCW, you probably don't have a rifle to make your way to anyway.
As far as caliber, it about where those bullets hit. Most 9mm are up over 1000 fpm +. The problem with them is usually over penetration. I currently carry a .45 because its dept mandated. If I had to choose I would probably go with a .40
Tags and tag spacing - MIKE
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 29, 2008, 03:42:11 AM
Jamie:
The examples I cited were with JHP rounds. I have never seen policemen carry FMJ rounds, except on the range.
Betcha saw lots of revolvers with lead round nose in the early days though?
Sure. Me and Wyatt Earp.
Seriously, there was only one or two small departments still using lead round-nose when I was a rookie. Most of us used semi-jacketed hollow point.
I don't know. I think a 9mm is a perfectly fine back-up weapon.
I remember when my retired LEO father was forced to give up his beloved .357mag 4", he told my mother "If I am ever killed in a gun fight, and there are fewer than 3 rounds fired out of my semi-auto, bring a wrongful death suit against the [darn] department."
I remember when Departments started buying Glocks, you heard the same thing from officers who swore they were going to be killed when their "plastic" gun failed. Isn't change fun!
My favorite weapon? A Swiss Army knife and a sharp sense of humor!!! :D
here are my other favorite weapons
M4A1
and glock with tac light
I dont really know all that much about the M4A1 (carbine) but from what I have heard from those that use it, its the best thing since the M-16 and sliced bread put together. I dont have alot of experience with rifles (most just single shot long distance target shooting with a reproduction BAR) but I would love to get some trigger time with the M4. To me, it just looks like what a good rifle should look like and I cant help but think that is has amazing functionality. Ive been talking to some USCG friends and apparently they have heard some scuttlebutt about the CG's Port Security Specialists transitioning to the M4, so they are very excited about that.
As far as handguns go, Im in love with my XD .40. One of the best things to happen to sidearms in a very long time. And its true what they say about it that you hit what you point at with this weapon.
Quote from: SARMedTech on February 02, 2008, 08:23:21 AM
I dont really know all that much about the M4A1 (carbine) but from what I have heard from those that use it, its the best thing since the M-16 and sliced bread put together.
After a few articles in AF/Army Times along with some other readings on the internet and watching retired "shooter" Larry Vickers on Military Channel, I'm think the HK416 is the way to go as far as a standard issue rifle for the guy with boots on the ground.
M16 Rifle and M4 Carbine: Time For a Change (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1081) <<---Click there for article
Date: Saturday, December 29 @ 18:16:04 PST
Topic: Rifles and Carbines
By Charlie Cutshaw
For those of you who may have been on another planet for the past three or
four years, our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are having serious
reliability issues with the M16 rifle and M4 Carbine, especially the latter.
The basic problems with the M16 and M4 are nothing new. M16 reliability
issues date to the mid-1960s and more recently, a study of the M4A1
conducted by the Special Operations Command in 2000 stated that the M4A1 was
"fundamentally flawed" for a number of reasons.
The M4/M4A1 Carbine has also turned out to be a poor "people stopper" when
used with standard M855 ball ammunition. This is less of an issue if one is
carrying an M16, but most troops in the "Sand Box" are equipped with M4 or
M4A1 Carbines. The difference between the M4 and the M4A1 is that...
^ I had no problem with either weapon. I think some of the "problems" are the competing manufacturers that were not awarded contracts putting spin on a few instances of malfunction.
Then again, most soldiers, airman and marines (even though we are at war) fire their weapon at basic and then on the Qual-range. (I think I read that only 1/8 of active Duty Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan actually fire a weapon. That is low, figuring what we see on the news every night.
I do believe we need a huge re-design of all military equipment. Since we are no longer going to operate in jungle and marshy environments (in the foreseeable future) we need equipment that can stand up to sand and sun. Hell, my biggest probelm I ever had was the huge rip in the ass of my ACU's.
In short, we need weapons and equipment that can be used in CHINA, and IRAN. Those are the next foreseeable operational areas in my mind. (But I pray that I am wrong!)
Quote from: Army Times
Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test
By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Dec 18, 2007 13:08:26 EST
The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent "extreme dust test" to demonstrate the M4's reliability compared to three newer carbines.
Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC's M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA's Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.
When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed "significantly worse" than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.
Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here's how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:
• XM8: 127 stoppages.
• MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.
• 416: 233 stoppages.
• M4: 882 stoppages.
the results of the test were "a wake-up call," but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers.
"We take the results of this test with a great deal of interest and seriousness," Brown said, expressing his determination to outfit soldiers with the best equipment possible.
The test results did not sway the Army's faith in the M4, he said.
"Everybody in the Army has high confidence in this weapon," Brown said.
Lighter and more compact than the M16 rifle, the M4 is more effective for the close confines of urban combat. The Army began fielding the M4 in the mid-1990s.
Army weapons officials agreed to perform the test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army combat forces to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Coburn is questioning the Army's plans to spend $375 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009.
Coburn raised concerns over the M4's "long-standing reliability" problems in an April 12 letter and asked if the Army had considered newer, possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.
John Hart, a spokesman for Coburn, who was traveling, said the senator was reviewing the test results and had yet to discuss it with the Army.
The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Some weapons experts maintain the M4's system of blowing gas directly into the firing mechanism of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication, causing excessive wear on parts.
The other contenders in the dust test — the XM8, SCAR and 416 — use a piston-style operating system, which relies on a gas-driven piston rod to cycle the weapon during firing. The gas is vented without funneling through the firing mechanism.
The Army's Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that the piston operating system significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts. The elite unit collaborated with the German arms maker to develop the new carbine.
U.S. Special Operations Command has also revised its small-arms requirements. In November 2004, SOCom awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace its weapons from the M16 family.
And from 2002 to 2005, the Army developed the XM8 as a replacement for the Army's M16 family. The program led to infighting within the service's weapons community and eventually died after failing to win approval at the Defense Department level.
How they were tested
The recent Aberdeen dust test used 10 sample models of each weapon. Before going into the dust chamber, testers applied a heavy coat of lubrication to each weapon. Each weapon's muzzle was capped and ejection port cover closed.
Testers exposed the weapons to a heavy dust environment for 30 minutes before firing 120 rounds from each.
The weapons were then put back in the dust chamber for another 30 minutes and fired another 120 rounds. This sequence was repeated until each weapon had fired 600 rounds.
Testers then wiped down each weapon and applied another heavy application of lubrication.
The weapons were put back through the same sequence of 30 minutes in the dust chamber followed by firing 120 rounds from each weapon until another 600 rounds were fired.
Testers then thoroughly cleaned each weapon, re-lubricated each, and began the dusting and fire sequencing again.
This process was repeated until testers fired 6,000 rounds through each weapon.
The dust test exposed the weapons to the same extreme dust and sand conditions that Army weapons officials subjected the M4 and M16 to during a "systems assessment" at Aberdeen last year and again this summer. The results of the second round of ATEC tests showed that the performance of the M4s dramatically improved when testers increased the amount of lubrication used.
Out of the 60,000 rounds fired in the tests earlier in the summer, the 10 M4s tested had 307 stoppages, test results show, far fewer than the 882 in the most recent test.
in the recent tests, the M4 suffered 643 weapon-related stoppages, such as failure to eject or failure to extract fired casings, and 239 magazine-related stoppages.
Colt officials had not seen the test report and would not comment for this story, said James Battaglini, executive vice president for Colt Defense LLC, on Dec. 14.
Army officials are concerned about the gap between the two tests because the "test conditions for test two and three were ostensibly the same," Brown said.
There were, however, minor differences in the two tests because they were conducted at different times of the year with different test officials, Brown said. Test community officials are analyzing the data to try to explain why the M4 performed worse during this test.
Weapons officials pointed out that these tests were conducted in extreme conditions that did not address "reliability in typical operational conditions," the test report states.
Despite the last-place showing, Army officials say there is no movement toward replacing the M4.
The Army wants its next soldier weapon to be a true leap ahead, rather than a series of small improvements, Brown said.
"That is what the intent is," he said, "to give our soldiers the very best and we are not going to rest until we do that."
Col. Robert Radcliffe, head of the Directorate of Combat Developments for the Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., said the test results will be considered as the Army continues to search for ways to improve soldier weapons.
For now, he said the Army will stick with the M4, because soldier surveys from Iraq and Afghanistan continue to highlight the weapon's popularity among troops in the combat zone.
"The M4 is performing for them in combat, and it does what they needed to do in combat," Radcliffe said.
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 02, 2008, 01:50:06 PM
^ I had no problem with either weapon. I think some of the "problems" are the competing manufacturers that were not awarded contracts putting spin on a few instances of malfunction.
Then again, most soldiers, airman and marines (even though we are at war) fire their weapon at basic and then on the Qual-range. (I think I read that only 1/8 of active Duty Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan actually fire a weapon. That is low, figuring what we see on the news every night.
I do believe we need a huge re-design of all military equipment. Since we are no longer going to operate in jungle and marshy environments (in the foreseeable future) we need equipment that can stand up to sand and sun. Hell, my biggest probelm I ever had was the huge rip in the ass of my ACU's.
In short, we need weapons and equipment that can be used in CHINA, and IRAN. Those are the next foreseeable operational areas in my mind. (But I pray that I am wrong!)
Mikey:
The Philippines and Indonesia both have active Muslim terrorist insurgencies. And they have jungle and marshy environments.
And, if I'm not mistaken, Iran has a large marsh in the south near Abadan (sp?)
If we create weapons systems for predicted enemies we will always run into problems because it is usually the unpredicted who becomes the enemy.
Our military has been trained and equipped to fight wars in the jungles of Central America, plains of Central Europe and mountains of Central Korea and Taiwan. That is why our military had such a difficult time fighting an insurgency campaign in the desert environment (and that's even after Desert Shield/Storm).
We need all-purpose weapons that hold up in MOST environments. Yes, they do exist. The AK's do that and do it well all over the globe. No reason why we can't design and procure a weapon that will do the same.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 02, 2008, 03:20:41 PM
The Philippines and Indonesia both have active Muslim terrorist insurgencies. And they have jungle and marshy environments.
And, if I'm not mistaken, Iran has a large marsh in the south near Abadan (sp?)
The Philippines can go to hell for all I care. They wanted the USA out of there SO bad, they can deal with what arose once we were gone. If I read history correctly, didn't the US Army already put down one Muslim insurrection there, like 100 years ago? They made movies about it too right?
Indonesia is another subject entirely. I have no knowledge of the situation there, thus can not comment.
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 02, 2008, 05:53:44 PMIndonesia is another subject entirely. I have no knowledge of the situation there, thus can not comment.
Been to indonesia lots of times. Just wait for another tsunami to come along and wipe it all out.
^ That seems like the only time other countries want our help, when they can't help themselves. I say, sure lets help them out, but in exchange, we want all their gold, and precious resources. With the gold, we can then start putting more into R&D for future weapons that will work when we eventually go back to that country and take over.
Too far off topic....sorry everyone!
Back to topic............my favorite weapon is knowledge! :o
Most of the gun writers listed are freelance writers who'll write whatever will get their articles sold. Most magazine are little more than industry catalogs with little objective reporting.
The U.S. army abandoned the OICW project a few years ago, one they've been working on since 1989. They came to the conclusion that all the new "advanced" designs were no more reliable and capable than the M16/M4 platforms and way more expensive than what they were buying M16A2/M4's for.
Most every one of the rifles were variations of rotary bolt gas operated chambered in 5.56mm NATO. Guess what? So's the M16 platform. All of the same drawbacks to the M16 platform was incorporated into these rifles.
Comparison: The Hk OICW was going to have a price tag pretty close to $10,000.00 which included the 20mm airburst grenade launcher. The Army is buying M4A1's for something around $500.00 and M203's for $300.00
Now, ATK, HK and FN poured hundreds of millions of dollars into this project only to see it go down the drain. So the media offensive is on to convince the public, military procurers and members of Congress that the U.S. serviceman is ill equipped to fight today's wars and the only way to fight terror on every environment on the planet is with their rifle.
The super weapons were supposed to be modular, able to add optics and ordnance as the mission required. The U.S. Army's proven that they can add the same options to the M16/M4 without the added extra expense.
Cartridge performance is another big issue with the 5.56mm NATO. Problems with M855 (standard issue) was found. It didn't work as advertised in the short barreled M4's in the cold weather, the bullet was too slow. This is being fixed with the Mk. 262 round that uses a 77 grain match bullet. This load is essentially what the US Army and USMC has been using in rifle competition and not only has far better terminal performance it increased the range of both rifles about 200 meters.
It also helps if you hit your target where it will do the most damage, center mass. Many Iraqi and Afghan insurgents are high on dope, so hits in the appendages or gut shots don't stop. Hit a lung, heart and/or spine they will go down.
Let's see some gun porn... post a picture of your favorite sidearm (that you own) and why it's your favorite. I'll start:
This is my Springfield Full Frame 1911 in .45acp, "Black Stainless" Model. I bought this firearm in a private sale, for less that $500 ;D but is was scratched to hell, and had holster rash from a cheap holster, including rub marks for the thumb strap. As well as the grips being cracked (heat from being left in the truck in Florida I guess).
I completly stripped it and cleaned, replacing worn, or abused parts myself. Had new grips made, put a match barrel in it, higher pound recoil spring and an upgraded guide rod. Left the sights alone for now but that's on the short list of upgrades to do, that and a trigger job. I had a gunsmith go over it before I shot it just to make sure my work was good. I hope to make this an heirloom someday, as that gun now has a lot of meaning to me now, even though it's not a daily carry piece, and kind of a "gun safe queen", but she's one hell of a tack driver.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/badger1030/spring1.jpg)
Let's here some more stories and see some pics.
At that big honking gun show I was at in VA this past weekend, I saw a gold-plated Desert Eagle .50 cal. Apparently there is an interlock that prevents it from being fired unless you're holding it sideways....
;D
my Springfield XD, .40 S&W (Service model). Why? Why wouldn't it be my favorite? It's an XD! XDs are a pleasure to shoot, reliable, and generally awesome.
(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/XDweb.jpg)
I have an XD Service in 9mm that is my carry piece...I won a Insight X2 laser/tac light in a raffle at a gun show, and put that on it for fun some times...makes it so anyone can shoot 10's!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 10, 2007, 11:11:44 PM
On duty, Glock 22 off duty, Glock 22.
(http://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/CQC_L2SERPAMATTE.jpg)
As goofy as I look in this pic, I enjoyed shooting this M4 with Surefire supressor.
Also, we shot at a Level IV chest plate to see if would actually stop a 5.56. It performed as it should have. Only difference is, there was no "wrapping" or "laminate" around the plate to capture the debris, so it just kind of cracked open. But there wasn't so much as a small bump on the inside of the plate, where you'd be wearing Level IIIA soft armor anyway.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2394.0;attach=1799)
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2394.0;attach=1800)
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2394.0;attach=1801)
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2394.0;attach=1802)
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
I'm no ballistics expert, but I continue to say "placement counts". I won't argue that a larger caliber like a .357 Sig, .40 or .45 will provide for a bigger punch, but I just can't give in to the whole 9mm ain't nuthin theory.
In January, JSO SWAT Officer Jared Reston (http://www.policeone.com/police/products/press-releases/1673862/) was shot 6 times at point blank range with a Glock 21, a .45 caliber pistol. Shot #1 went straigt into his face, hitting his jaw. 3 hits were to his ABA Xtreme™ XT vest (http://www.aceuniforms.com/osCommerce/catalog/images/xtremelg.jpg), stopping those 3 rounds. He was also hit in the leg and butt. Reston killed the guy at point blank range with his Glock 22 .40, only after the bad guy expended all 12 or 13 of his .45 rounds.
I am not saying that 9mm is the ultimate round, I am just, once again, saying, that 9mm kill. Just like the post by "wazafuzz", you can get hit in the leg, a seemingly survivable hit, but there's no telling what that round will do once it enters the body.
Just sayin', don't blow off a gun cuz it's a 9mm. They kill people all the time.
"Speed is fine, accuracy is final"
Yes, the 9mm can kill. But...
The problem with the 9mm is what the bad guy can do between the time the first 9mm round hits him and the time he assumes room temperature. I have seen at least three situations where a guy was fatally hit with 9mm's, but was still able to fire on the police. In one case he put 4 .38 slugs in a policewoman after sustaining a 9mm shot through the heart.
That being said, I just bought a 9mm. I am going to a law enforcement firearms instructor school, and will take over teaching armed security guards at the security school I work at. Florida law restricts security officers to the .38 special or the 9mm, and I need one to teach with. I bought a Browning FNP-9, but I won't be carrying it as a self-defense weapon very often. Most of the armed security officers in my county use the 9mm, so I got to go with the market.
I also just bought a 12-guage Mossberg riot shotgun today. I think I am now the most heavily armed person in my neighborhood. One .45 caliber M-1911, one .38 caliber revolver with a 2-inch barrel, one 9mm semiauto pistol, and one riot gun.
If I work it right, I think I have enough firepower to take over a third-world banana republic. I can declare myself president for life and give speeches to my adoring people from the balcony of my palace in my TPU!
My favorite weapon is an Lper.
I am pretty sure it would make an efective bludgoen at close range and we could set it to 121.5 to annoy our enemys.
Are you talking about the new L-Per, or the clasic?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 03:03:40 AMI also just bought a 12-guage Mossberg riot shotgun today. I think I am now the most heavily armed person in my neighborhood. One .45 caliber M-1911, one .38 caliber revolver with a 2-inch barrel, one 9mm semiauto pistol, and one riot gun.
I had my gun safe open today and my wife says
"oh, I didn't know you had two shotguns". Yes, must remember to tell the wife when there is a new addition. Already had the Mossberg 500, but bought a Remington 870 Tactical from another officer recently... Yeah, I'm just waiting for the house next door to open fire on a bad drug deal. Either that or they house will blow up due to a meth lab. I love my neighborhood, minus the one set of neighbors next door. Grrrr...
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 01, 2008, 03:18:41 AM
Are you talking about the new L-Per, or the clasic?
(http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v199/185/108/97400735/n97400735_30175689_7844.jpg)
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
If it was, he got his money's worth . . . :o
Shouldn't need fixing in the first place if properly cared for. :o
Since when is duct tape not proper care?
Quote from: Gunner C on April 01, 2008, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
If it was, he got his money's worth . . . :o
Not sure if he was a taxpayer... If I recall correctly the only form of ID he carried was his gang tattoos. Good thing his prints were on file! :-X However, once his past (and rap sheet) came to light it was apparent his demise might have saved the taxpayers plenty of money on future trials and imprisonment. Unless, of course, he was going to turn a new leaf that very same day. :angel:
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 01, 2008, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
If it was, he got his money's worth . . . :o
Not sure if he was a taxpayer... If I recall correctly the only form of ID he carried was his gang tattoos. Good thing his prints were on file! :-X However, once his past (and rap sheet) came to light it was apparent his demise might have saved the taxpayers plenty of money on future trials and imprisonment. Unless, of course, he was going to turn a new leaf that very same day. :angel:
Ah yep, just another poor victim of society. :angel:
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 09:12:19 AM
Since when is duct tape not proper care?
Duct tape implies repair. Repair implies broken. Those masts are pretty sturdy, and if properly handled, shouldn't get broken. My unit has a well used set with a Ser No in the 400s, with the original masts - scarred and showing some handling wear, but nothing broken.
[/rant]
They are maintained by NESA grads, there shouldnt be any problems with them.
right, because NESA grads share their natural wear-n-tear repellency with anything that comes in contact with them.
and +1 to initiative rolls.
All the grads I knew were really good searchers and maintained thier equpment well. Is there a particular reason that you dont trust NESA grads? Has the quality of the academy gone down since 2004?
Quote from: Grumpy on April 01, 2008, 02:07:25 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 01, 2008, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
If it was, he got his money's worth . . . :o
Not sure if he was a taxpayer... If I recall correctly the only form of ID he carried was his gang tattoos. Good thing his prints were on file! :-X However, once his past (and rap sheet) came to light it was apparent his demise might have saved the taxpayers plenty of money on future trials and imprisonment. Unless, of course, he was going to turn a new leaf that very same day. :angel:
Ah yep, just another poor victim of society. :angel:
Another tragic gang killing. He was just trying to get his life together. He had started to attend church, and had gotten in touch with all of his children trying to be a better father to them no matter what the relationship was with their mothers. He found Jesus, and was looking for a job. He had given up on gangs, was in a program to get his G.E.D., and was trying to talk to young folks so they wouldn't make his mistakes.
Blah, blah, blah... the usual drivel. But the media eats it up.
Quote from: nesagsar on April 01, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
All the grads I knew were really good searchers and maintained thier equpment well. Is there a particular reason that you dont trust NESA grads? Has the quality of the academy gone down since 2004?
interesting logic.
I trust every NESA grad I happen to know, which is enough to make more than one good sized team. Those that I've worked with have even trusted me just the same, and I've never been there.
Strange. I know!
What I wouldn't trust, however, is a zealot's assessment of equipment based on whether the user had completed a particular NCSA or not.
Since this thread is about favorite weapons and last time I checked
an L'Per isn't one, I'd invite you to continue this discussion via PM so as to not attempt to derail the thread further than you already have.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 01, 2008, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
If it was, he got his money's worth . . . :o
Not sure if he was a taxpayer... If I recall correctly the only form of ID he carried was his gang tattoos. Good thing his prints were on file! :-X However, once his past (and rap sheet) came to light it was apparent his demise might have saved the taxpayers plenty of money on future trials and imprisonment. Unless, of course, he was going to turn a new leaf that very same day. :angel:
One more guy I don't have to read about in gang intel reports. They are lower than whale dookie at high tide.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on April 02, 2008, 12:02:29 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 01, 2008, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 01, 2008, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2008, 01:43:40 AM
I carried .38 revolvers, and 9's as a former copper. Didn't have any choice in the matter. Later, as a non-sworn (but sworn at) crime scene guy I attended many autopsies after deputies dropped bad guys with one shot from a .40 cal Glock. It seemed like they couldn't go wrong. It seemed to be a good balance between stopping power and shoot-ability.
However, the ultimate one shot stop I saw was one bad guy shooting another. Drive by. The shooter launched one round at contestant number two, who went down for good. At the post it became apparent the .45 FMJ round entered in one thigh, hit the femur, bounced upward through the leg, into the abdomen, pinged around the ribs a few times before going up through the neck, hit and bounced off the inside of his skull before coming to rest at the bottom of his skull.
I hope that wasn't a taxpayer that got shot!
If it was, he got his money's worth . . . :o
Not sure if he was a taxpayer... If I recall correctly the only form of ID he carried was his gang tattoos. Good thing his prints were on file! :-X However, once his past (and rap sheet) came to light it was apparent his demise might have saved the taxpayers plenty of money on future trials and imprisonment. Unless, of course, he was going to turn a new leaf that very same day. :angel:
One more guy I don't have to read about in gang intel reports. They are lower than whale dookie at high tide.
GC
I couldnt agree more Gunner. Gangs are systematically raising just about every violent crime statistic known and invading every hamlet and village from NYC to small town New Mexico. I say we have DHS classify them as terrorists and if you can prove a person is a member of a gang or has gang affiliations, we prosecute them the same way we we do terrorists or suspected terrorists....lets send a few thousands Nortenos, MS-13s and Bloods to Gitmo and see what that does to our gang crime numbers in the US. The enemy is inside the wire.
Or we could secure the border and deport them as we catch them. I cant tell you how many illegal alien gangsters I have run across that are on probation!
In Fresno, we have had two off duty Deputies jumped in restaurants by gang members. Neither Dep was carrying their gun. ??? The gangsters are "claiming" they had no idea the "victim" was a cop. Both are back to work though.
I never leave home without mine.
I'm throwing the off topic card and locking this.