NEC Minutes - Draft - Nov 2009

[Short Field]

I guess Short Field doesn't fly CAP aircraft from airports that have airline operations. A "govertment issued ID" is required for access to the flightline. TSA is getting strict on general aviation having the ramp badge/pass.

So my DD Form 2A (ret) is going to take care of the TSA badge requirement for AOAs?   If we are talking about getting access badges to aircraft opeation areas on airfields that support scheduled airline flights, then lets discuss that issue (and it has nothing to do with getting open access to a military base).

[Gunner C]

No need to go through Region to CAP-USAF, that is what we have CAP-USAF State Directors for.  They are there to work with local military on issues just like this.

If you want something that is going to affect security, you'd better have an active duty commander request it, not a civilian.  The state director is fine for participation letters, but something like this, you need to have a commander-to-commander communication.  When one commander sees another one making a "you bet your bars" request (something that's a career killer if it goes wrong), then it has a better chance of going through.  A GS-12 just isn't going to make it.  For CAC cards, you're going to need horsepower, something the SD just doesn't have.

[RADIOMAN015]

[If you want something that is going to affect security, you'd better have an active duty commander request it, not a civilian.  The state director is fine for participation letters, but something like this, you need to have a commander-to-commander communication.  When one commander sees another one making a "you bet your bars" request (something that's a career killer if it goes wrong), then it has a better chance of going through.  A GS-12 just isn't going to make it.  For CAC cards, you're going to need horsepower, something the SD just doesn't have.

Unless CAP members meet on a military base (at a designated use facility), or there's an AF BX selling uniform items, there really is no reason for ANY CAP member to be on that installation unless it has been previously coordinated by a CAP (CAP USAF) official, recognized by the base.

RM

[High Speed Low Drag]

If I re-read the thread correctly, this thread is about the NEC wanting to have positive identification of CAP members (particularly Seniors) for general membership and mission-specific purposes.  The thread has wound down to getting on an AD base and DOD / CAC cards.

Let's get back to the thoughts of why the NEC wants to accomplish positive identification and the easiest, most effective ways to do it.  My proposal:

IDs are right down my professional line I have fingerprinted several senior members for their cards, and signed it as "Lt. G. St. Pierre, LRPD."  I have no problem if the FBI wanted to call and verify who I was, but it would be hard to do if I hadn't ID'd my agency.

My opinion – require that the fingerprint card be accompanied by a CAPF that the printing agency/tech fills out.  A simple form, but one that would require & instruct the printing agency to verify the identity of the person requesting FPing.  This could be done by a state-issued DL, or ID, and a secondary form of ID.  The FPing tech/officer would then fill in their Name, Rank, Employee ID (or Badge) Number, Agency, Agency Contact Number, Agency Address, and ORI.  This form, signed, would accompany the Fingerprint card.  (I would even prefer that the information be pre-printed on the back of the card.)  When the SQ Commander accepts the application and the card w/ form, they would also review the identification of the person and verify again that everything matches.  If they have any question or suspect something, it wouldn't be hard to contact the FPing agency and verify the information.

Then everything goes as normal.  They would receive the current non-picture ID card.  However, within 60 days, the member would be required to submit their picture and have the picture ID card sent out from National.  The added requirement would be that before access to any training / actual mission or access to any base, the CAP member would have to present the picture ID along with the state-issued ID. 

This would prevent from overloading "govt-issuing facilities," while still providing for positive ID of members.
I agree with Maj. Carrales, I really wouldn't want the average CAP member running around with a DOD card without a whole lot more vetting.

This was outlined with the thought of reducing as much "work" as possible, establishing "positive ID," and keeping it low-cost to all involved.

[SarDragon]

Speaking of fingerprint card signatures, I have signed a whole bunch of them as, D.E. Bowles, Maj, CAP, and haven't had a single one kicked back because of the signature.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Speaking of fingerprint card signatures, I have signed a whole bunch of them as, D.E. Bowles, Maj, CAP, and haven't had a single one kicked back because of the signature.

Interesting - Conventional Wisdom around here says that a LE agency must do the fingerprinting.

[RiverAux]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints. 

[Major Carrales]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints.

I concur, the local Flotilla has folks that provide the service.

[SarDragon]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints.

We have the kit, and I learned how to do prints before I joined CAP. A school bud's dad was a cop, and taught me how. The lessons were reinforced when I worked at Pass & Tag in the Navy.

[flynd94]

I guess Short Field doesn't fly CAP aircraft from airports that have airline operations. A "govertment issued ID" is required for access to the flightline. TSA is getting strict on general aviation having the ramp badge/pass.

So my DD Form 2A (ret) is going to take care of the TSA badge requirement for AOAs?   If we are talking about getting access badges to aircraft opeation areas on airfields that support scheduled airline flights, then lets discuss that issue (and it has nothing to do with getting open access to a military base).

Unless you have an aircraft based there, submit to a background investigation you (CAP) will never have free access to ramps with scheduled 121 Ops.  I know that AOPA is fighting this ruling from the TSA/DOT but, I do believe they will not succeed in get this changed.

I have personally witness TSA agents going ballistic at small airports (MCE and VIS) regarding this.  I had a little kid (probably under 8 ) cross the AOA line in VIS and, TSA going nuts.  The child never got within 15ft of my aircraft before his parents stopped him.  We ended up having to re-screen all the passengers, the luggage, our luggage, us and, they tore apart my aircraft looking for the "bomb" the kid planted.

[lordmonar]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints.

We have the kit, and I learned how to do prints before I joined CAP. A school bud's dad was a cop, and taught me how. The lessons were reinforced when I worked at Pass & Tag in the Navy.

They are not that hard.

I do all the finger printing for my squadron....never was an LE type.

[Smokey]

Ahh the TSA....incompetence at it's zenith.  They are proof often times that the theory of evolution passed them up.  Example...As a cop I have a 6 pt star as a badge.  I can't tell you how many times they have wanted to confiscate it as a "throwing star."  They hand searched a fellow officer who had a tie tac that was shaped like a Colt .45-about 1/3 inch in length and 1/10 inch thick. They accused him of trying to smuggle a firearm onboard.  When he presented ID he show his police ID, they said it wasn't govt issued  (he was NYPD), then he showed his CAC (reserve Army Capt), again not good enuf.  Finally they accepted his driver's license!!!
Many TSA folks are so lost they could not find thier way out of a closet with an INS,GPS,charts and a guide dog.

[Cecil DP]

Ahh the TSA....incompetence at it's zenith.  They are proof often times that the theory of evolution passed them up.  Example...As a cop I have a 6 pt star as a badge.  I can't tell you how many times they have wanted to confiscate it as a "throwing star."  They hand searched a fellow officer who had a tie tac that was shaped like a Colt .45-about 1/3 inch in length and 1/10 inch thick. They accused him of trying to smuggle a firearm onboard.  When he presented ID he show his police ID, they said it wasn't govt issued  (he was NYPD), then he showed his CAC (reserve Army Capt), again not good enuf.  Finally they accepted his driver's license!!!
Many TSA folks are so lost they could not find thier way out of a closet with an INS,GPS,charts and a guide dog.

About 5 years ago the late BG Joe Foss, who was also a former Governor of SD,  was boarding a plane in Phoenix, when he was caught trying to smuggle his Congressional Medal of Honor through the check point. The TSA tried to confiscate it, until someone with common sense cleared him.

[PHall]

And people wonder why most people think that TSA stands for Those Stupid A......s.

[Ned]

Perfect.

Let's spend more time bashing underpaid government employees whose unpleasant and unpopular job is performed under conditions none of us can fully appreciate.

Let's do when they can't respond.

And let's do it anonymously.

This is an excellent use of CAPTalk bandwidth.


What was the topic of this thread?  I forget.

Ned Lee

[Spike]

^ No one forces anyone to take a job anywhere, or anytime.  This is the United States, we all have the freedom to do what we want.  If TSA was as terrible as it seems would we have any TSA workers at all?  Thats right, health insurance, governemnt retirement benefits, a stable job, progressive investment programs, childcare and everything else associated with Government work.  That must be one terrible career field.

Seriously, if you google for "TSA workers with criminal backgrounds" you would be surprised to see what type of people got hired by the FED and received a Gov't ID Card, but if they were to join CAP would not get past the fingerprinting. 

As far as the NEC goes, they need a real mission, or we will continue to see less than important ideas coming from that group.

[Cecil DP]

Perfect.

Let's spend more time bashing underpaid government employees whose unpleasant and unpopular job is performed under conditions none of us can fully appreciate.

Let's do when they can't respond.

And let's do it anonymously.

This is an excellent use of CAPTalk bandwidth.


What was the topic of this thread?  I forget.

Ned Lee

I understand that 99.9% of all the TSA and other security people are doing a great job, made more difficult everytime there is a major incident, I only ask that in the examples given here of Joe Foss and the NYC Police Officer some common sense had been used.

[Smokey]

From CBS news Los Angeles Jan 6....

"TSA agents are there to keep the skies safe. but we uncovered an afterhours party where TSA agents were allegedly caught on tape using drugs. It comes as LAX is beefing up security in the wake of the Chritsmas bombing attempt."
The investigation began late last year when a TSA Agent was arrested for allegedly counterfeiting parking passes here at the employee parking lot. In his house, police found a videotape. On it was an afterhours party where other TSA agents were allegedly using drugs. These are the same people in charge of screening our bags. Making sure travelers are safe. But perhaps high on drugs.

Counterfeit passes and drugs....yet CAP still can't get on airports and some military bases to locate ELTs !!!!!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Do you think CAP doesn't have it's shady characters like that?

[Smokey]

Sure CAP has some shady characters, but the point is some TSA folks haven't enough intelligence to tell the difference between a police badge, the Medal of Honor and a throwing star and claiming a tie tac is a firearm is beyond belief. They will accept the lowest form of ID that can be counterfeited (a drivers license , which by the way can be had in Los Angeles in less than an hour by counterfeiters for $20) but not a militray ID card nor a police ID!!!   Yet a CAP member trying to track down an ELT at the airport that has Part 121 ops is treated as a greater threat than the underwearbomber.

Something is wrong with this picture.  Every CAP senior member has at least had an FBI fingerprint check, not so for the zillions of folks just showing a driver's license.