Question about O Club

[mikeylikey]

Anyway, now that I am onthe officer side of the house I have enlisted friends not in my chain of command that I socialize with. have you been to OBC lately? Fresh out of colleg e LT's wear baggy pants just like fresh out of basic Privates. They listen to hip hop, they go out drinking. I have been to basic tarining and I have been to IOBC. Off duty there is little difference.

Not sure what OBC you went to, but I spent almost a year of my life teaching at FAOBC.  I attended both FAOBC and Advanced, and I will say what you are speaking of, does not exist.  I am going to make a long guess and say that you are the LT who still wears baggy pants, blasts your hip-hop at 3AM, etc??  I am also going to guess that you are not Active Duty, you only did AD for training (OBC, BOLC?).  I have seen new LT's that are on AD strictly for initial training show up, and act like they are still in a frat.  Needless to say that disappears within 2 weeks, when the CoC cracks down.  I don't know you, but am guessing you are not yet into 3 years of Commissioned service?  You tend to comment as though you still live in a Frat house, and party every night.  I am not one to judge, but saying you openly socialize with enlisted guys who may or may not be in your CoC is not a good idea.  I suggest you look up Fraternization, as it is a very serious offense for Officers, and the very slightest appearance can mean an end to your career. 

Also, drinking may be big in the military, but Officers do not advertise what they do in their time off. 

OK OK OK..........Wow....way off topic, back to the O-club.

I am a believer that Officers and Enlisted need separate outlets for camaraderie.  I will not ever go eat in the Dining Facility on the basic training side of the Post, not because I "hate" enlisted guys, but they don't need to feel that the Officers are always around.  Just as much as I want to be able to talk shop and gripe about enlisted guys to my friends at the club without a SGT being behind me. 

To those that said there should be less distinction between Officers and Enlisted, I think that would lead to poor performance in operations. 

So, as a CAP member if you are presented with an opportunity to dine and or drink at an Officers Club, take the chance!  For all intents and purposes, the AF has said you can wear Officer insignia, just act like it!   

[JohnKachenmeister]

Mikey...

You are correct in everything you have posted.  I am former enlisted, and while I do not consider myself "Better" than enlisted, I do have different responsibilities.  Among those responsibilities is the duty to be and APPEAR to be fair in all of my dealings with troops.  I cannot have some soldier thinking that I have treated him differently because he's not one of my "Buds."

There are times for social interaction, unit picnics and cookouts, end-of-exercise parties, etc.  At these events, yes, there IS a loosening of roles.  That's why the CO usually gets thrown in a pool or a lake during the party.  (When in command, never carry your pager, cellphone, sidearm, wallet, or anything else that can be damaged by water to the unit party)  When I commanded a company, I had a collection of wild, tasteless and gaudy Hawaiian shirts that I would wear at such functions.  It became a personal trademark, and was amusing to the troopers.

Patton summed it up succinctly:  "An officer is always on parade."

Of course, now that I live in Florida, those shirts are known as "Semi-formal attire."

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think I will just try to go off base and find a nice Chinese place or an Outback instead.

Usually clubs have a side bar where BDU's and flight suits are appropriate.  That's usually where everybody is.  In the main club and dining room, its best to err on the side of being a bit too formal. Especially up north.  In the South the weather usually dictates that shorts and open collar shirts (NOT T-shirts) are apporpriate.  I don't think I'd wear shorts to the club anywhere else. 

Officer clubs are very similar, in dress and deportment requirements, and in atmosphere, to exclusive civilian country clubs.

[SAR-EMT1]

So would it be better for CAP types to use the main dining room / bar or the smaller dining room / bar ? .... wish they covered O-Club Ettiquite 101 in ROTC 

[Nomex Maximus]

From what I read here, the military life is way, way, way too wacky for me to understand.

As for the O-Club, I will see what happens. If a bunch of CAP types go there and invite me along (in my beautiful brand new BDUs) and they let me in the door, great. Otherwise, it will be the nearest Outback or Cracker Barrel within 15 miles.

[star1151]

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems.

As the daughter of two Navy officers and sister of a USMC officer, I can say that it's certainly NOT bogus and there for a good reason.   You already got an explanation of why it's not, but I figured I'd throw in my agreement.  Spend some time in the military as enlisted or an officer and you'll see that's it's a different world.  Maybe it seems normal to me because I grew up around it, but I cannot imagine going into an O-club wearing BDU's and acting like it's some throwback to the 20's.  Respect the culture, even if you don't agree with it.  If you can't respect it, don't get involved.

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy.

You're talking two different things.  My manager has an open door policy.  Does that mean I can fly to headquarters and pop in on the CEO?  No.  Why in the world would that be desirable?  Clearly, our culture is working for us (if you knew who I worked for you, you'd agree), and I wouldn't have it any other way.

And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

Stratification does NOT mean superiority in the least. 

Frankly, in my civilian job, fraternization is frowned upon.  Blurs the lines of authority, just like in the military.  I have two employees who report to me, who want to be my best friend, but it just doesn't work that way.  Be too familiar with an employee, and you'll find them refusing to do something because they think they can get away with it.

BTW, as someone who once quit a job because she was being harassed for being a college grad, I can say that the non-management folks can dish it out just as much as they claim management does.

[flyguy06]

Anyway, now that I am onthe officer side of the house I have enlisted friends not in my chain of command that I socialize with. have you been to OBC lately? Fresh out of colleg e LT's wear baggy pants just like fresh out of basic Privates. They listen to hip hop, they go out drinking. I have been to basic tarining and I have been to IOBC. Off duty there is little difference.

Not sure what OBC you went to, but I spent almost a year of my life teaching at FAOBC.  I attended both FAOBC and Advanced, and I will say what you are speaking of, does not exist.  I am going to make a long guess and say that you are the LT who still wears baggy pants, blasts your hip-hop at 3AM, etc??  I am also going to guess that you are not Active Duty, you only did AD for training (OBC, BOLC?).  I have seen new LT's that are on AD strictly for initial training show up, and act like they are still in a frat.  Needless to say that disappears within 2 weeks, when the CoC cracks down.  I don't know you, but am guessing you are not yet into 3 years of Commissioned service?  You tend to comment as though you still live in a Frat house, and party every night.  I am not one to judge, but saying you openly socialize with enlisted guys who may or may not be in your CoC is not a good idea.  I suggest you look up Fraternization, as it is a very serious offense for Officers, and the very slightest appearance can mean an end to your career. 

Also, drinking may be big in the military, but Officers do not advertise what they do in their time off. 

OK OK OK..........Wow....way off topic, back to the O-club.

You are WRONG on so many counts there. First off, I am 38 years old. So,no I do NOT wear baggy pants nor listen to a lot of hip hop. Is it your suggestion that active duty officers do not listen to hip hop? Well, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, i am a Guard Officer. Prior to that I was in the Regular Army as an 11B soldier staioned in the 25th ID. How long have you been on active duty? i have 19 years of service this year. half of that was active duty. Oh, and no, I do not drink alcohol of any kind. I dont drink or smoke.  I have been commissioned for 5 years. I make reference to my "frat" brothers because if you know anything about African Amercian Fraternities you would realize that Alumni chapters are very active. fraternity life is not just a college thing and fraternity life doesnt mean parties and drinking. In African American fraternities we do tons of community outreach, mentoring and role modeling. We give scholorships todeserving students and we help shape the youths of this country.

[Nomex Maximus]

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems.

As the daughter of two Navy officers and sister of a USMC officer, I can say that it's certainly NOT bogus and there for a good reason.   You already got an explanation of why it's not, but I figured I'd throw in my agreement.  Spend some time in the military as enlisted or an officer and you'll see that's it's a different world.  Maybe it seems normal to me because I grew up around it, but I cannot imagine going into an O-club wearing BDU's and acting like it's some throwback to the 20's.  Respect the culture, even if you don't agree with it.  If you can't respect it, don't get involved.

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy.

You're talking two different things.  My manager has an open door policy.  Does that mean I can fly to headquarters and pop in on the CEO?  No.  Why in the world would that be desirable?  Clearly, our culture is working for us (if you knew who I worked for you, you'd agree), and I wouldn't have it any other way.

And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

Stratification does NOT mean superiority in the least. 

Frankly, in my civilian job, fraternization is frowned upon.  Blurs the lines of authority, just like in the military.  I have two employees who report to me, who want to be my best friend, but it just doesn't work that way.  Be too familiar with an employee, and you'll find them refusing to do something because they think they can get away with it.

BTW, as someone who once quit a job because she was being harassed for being a college grad, I can say that the non-management folks can dish it out just as much as they claim management does.

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

I have great difficulty believing that a real leader and a real set of professionals working together cannot figure out when it's time to act military and when it's time to act normal, when it's time for formal procedures and when it's time to relax. Sort of like doctors and nurses in an ER. Imagine a military where people didn't have to shout at each other to get things done...

The reason I don't pal around with the guy two or three levels above me in the org chart is that he and I don't really have much of anything in common work wise. He does spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations and I do engineering. Now, if he had regular reason to come over to my desk and interact with me, then I would have no problem inviting him along for lunch, etc. No social stratification and no problems because of fraternization. In fact, if he was frequently interacting with me but then gave off a vibe of "don't socialize or associate with me", well, I would likely start putting empty pizza cartons, cigarette butts and empty beer bottles in his office after hours. And "water" his potted plants. Just like I did at Raytheon...

[AlphaSigOU]

Flyguy06 is absolutely right... The predominantly African-American Prince Hall Masons and the NPHC (National Pan Hellenic Conference) fraternities, unlike their 'mainstream' (read: predominantly white) brethren take their brotherhood very seriously; as he also mentioned their alumni network and community outreach is one of the most active. It isn't just for college years alone. Up until a few years ago, Prince Hall and 'mainstream' Masonry didn't see eye to eye in a form of discrimination that is finally being reversed.

For the record, I am a Mason and a member of a college fraternity (Alpha Sigma Phi).

Back on topic...

In this day and age, economics have closed down officers/NCO/airmen's clubs or forced them to consolidate under one building as an 'all ranks' club. The separation between officer and enlisted is now in the separate lounge or bar. Navy officers on large ships will congregate in the 'dirty shirt' wardroom, where wash khakis, 'poopie suits' and flight suits are the norm.

[Short Field]

Flyguy06 is absolutely right... The predominantly African-American Prince Hall Masons and the NPHC (National Pan Hellenic Conference) fraternities, unlike their 'mainstream' (read: predominantly white) brethren take their brotherhood very seriously

I was taught that what takes place in Lodge, stays in Lodge.  I never saw (and expect to never see) a Brother presume on our Fraternal relationship in a military situation.  Something about respect...

[fyrfitrmedic]

Flyguy06 is absolutely right... The predominantly African-American Prince Hall Masons and the NPHC (National Pan Hellenic Conference) fraternities, unlike their 'mainstream' (read: predominantly white) brethren take their brotherhood very seriously

I was taught that what takes place in Lodge, stays in Lodge.  I never saw (and expect to never see) a Brother presume on our Fraternal relationship in a military situation.  Something about respect...

I have seen this a time or two in CAP, unfortunately.

[AlphaSigOU]

I was taught that what takes place in Lodge, stays in Lodge.  I never saw (and expect to never see) a Brother presume on our Fraternal relationship in a military situation.  Something about respect...

And I am mindful of my obligation when it comes to the internal business of the lodge. What I've stated is publicly available knowledge; if it steps on any toes then I'll redact it.

[Short Field]

I am mindful of my obligation when it comes to the internal business of the lodge.

You missed the point.  However I am addressed or how I address others within a lodge (or a lodge function) stays within the lodge.  It has nothing to do with the "outside" world.  No one cares that "Tim" is a Two-Star General.  He is just another brother and only due the respect earned within the fraternity.  HOWEVER, once back in the "outside" world, there would be no attempt to presume on that relationship and call him "Tim".  I am sure this applies to other Fraternal Organizations as well. 

For that matter, I saw very few salutes exchanged when the guys I went to high school with got together again at class reunions after various tours of duty.

However, the main issue here is proper behavior and dress when visiting an Officer's Club on an Air Force Base.  Previous posts have spelled out what is expected.    And if anyone thinks proper behavior and dress is just an "Officer thing", feel free to visit your the nearest NCO Club and address the Command Sergeant Major or Command Chief Master Sergeant by their first name in front of their peers or lower enlisted ranks.  You will probably be better doing it to "Tim" at the O'Club.

[Short Field]

 [/quote]I have seen this a time or two in CAP, unfortunately.
[/quote]

Some people need all the help they can get.     They only bring disrespect to themselves.

[star1151]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Since you have zero experience in or around the military (I'd count CAP, but I don't think you've been a member for much longer than I have), I'm very curious as to how you came to that incorrect conclusion.

But not curious enough to continue reading comments by someone who clearly has no respect for the military and resorts to childish behavior AT WORK when he feels he has been wronged.  Just....wow.

[PHall]

NM, do yourself a favor and stay out of the club.
You'll be much happier going downtown.

[Cecil DP]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Several military organizations have interacted in just the way Mr Maximus would like. Both the Russian and Chinese militaries under Mao, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin started out with "Peoples Armies" where the decisions were made according to consenus. Each abandoned these policies as soon as they realized they were spending more time fighting among themselves over policies and trying to unF*** the system that resulted than they were winning the war. (Also resulted in a lot of people dying in front of a wall because of the complete dysfunction caused by the "proletarian policies").

[Nomex Maximus]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Several military organizations have interacted in just the way Mr Maximus would like. Both the Russian and Chinese militaries under Mao, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin started out with "Peoples Armies" where the decisions were made according to consenus. Each abandoned these policies as soon as they realized they were spending more time fighting among themselves over policies and trying to unF*** the system that resulted than they were winning the war. (Also resulted in a lot of people dying in front of a wall because of the complete dysfunction caused by the "proletarian policies").

*sigh* I am not suggesting that we replace the US Military with communism. Really.

[Nomex Maximus]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Since you have zero experience in or around the military (I'd count CAP, but I don't think you've been a member for much longer than I have), I'm very curious as to how you came to that incorrect conclusion.

But not curious enough to continue reading comments by someone who clearly has no respect for the military and resorts to childish behavior AT WORK when he feels he has been wronged.  Just....wow.

It was a *JOKE*. An attempt at *HUMOR*. Get it? *SHEESH*. If I didn't have any respect for the military I wouldn't be asking about appropriate coutesies at a military club. Why don't you go to your nearest O-club. You need to *RELAX*. Chill.

[Short Field]

Mid-1980s was about the last time an Officer could afford to go to the O'Club and get "shloshed" - if he had a designated driver or could walk home.  By the 1990s, you were taking your career in your hands even if you had a designated driver.  Most people I know went to the "two drinks then home" rule.

The 1970's were nice.....