Question about O Club

[SAR-EMT1]

I will be attending an SLS/ CLC at Scott AFB next month. A newer member asked if we (CAP) had O Club privileges. (We are staying in the base hotel)  Now from previous posts Ive gathered that it is usually up to the base commander and varies from place to place.

My question is this: how would I go about finding out? Do I just call the Services Sq. ?   And if we are eligible do we fork over the fee for annual membership or just a few bucks for the weekend or what?

[Murph]

Calen,
I'll see you there!!

I haven't been there myself but have heard about many a CAP officer downing a few beers there (at the All Ranks Club).

If there's any question ask Lt Col Gale - he'll confirm for sure.

Murph

[MIKE]

It should be in the MSA for the actvitiy... The same document that is used to authorize use of billeting.

[O-Rex]

It stands to reason that if your MSA includes officer billeting, you could use the O-club, but ask, just to be on the safe side.

The key is to behave, and act like you belong there. . . . .

[Short Field]

If you dress decent (polo shirt & slacks or CAP uniform), then using the dining room should not be an issue.  I can't imagine them asking for ID or membership cards (just don't pick membership appreciation night).    

I wouldn't worry about trying to be a member.  I think just about every club now requires a formal membership and that use to require getting a major credit card issued through the club so they can automatically bill your dues to it.  

If you intend to hang in the bar, you might want to make sure it is spelled out first in the MSA.   You never know who might be having a bad day and you accidently piss them off and get a formal complaint.

[mikeylikey]

AF and Army Club systems use CHASE credit cards now.  They are AWESOME about billing your dues.  PLUS the card is a "rewards" card, that is the more I drink  eat  on post/base or shop at the commissary or buy anything AAFES, I earn 2 points per dollar, and 1 point off post.  After so many they let you chose gift cards, gift certificates ETC.  I am currently working on a Home Depot Gift Card.

[Becks]

I usually get orders for CAP events on military bases that say whether we have exchange and O-club.

[JohnKachenmeister]

On an MSA you normally have the privileges of a TDY officer.  That includes the O-club.  Don't get all drunk and silly, act like a gentleman. 

Enjoy.

[SAR-EMT1]

The project Officer emailed me back and said yes we do get TDY-Officer privileges. So my next question is this: is there any protocol I should know about when in the place? Dining room or bar?
And ... As Im not a member what is the usual routine to get in or pay for items?
Thanks.

[mikeylikey]

The project Officer emailed me back and said yes we do get TDY-Officer privileges. So my next question is this: is there any protocol I should know about when in the place? Dining room or bar?
And ... As I'm not a member what is the usual routine to get in or pay for items?
Thanks.

Carry your MSA with you.  Just walk in, (if I am not mistaken it is a consolidated, all-ranks club right?) and do as you would at a restaurant or bar.  I would presume that they have a lunch buffet, perhaps an evening buffet, dinner service and drink service from 1400 to 2359.  No need to wear the CAP uniform, a polo and some pants work rather well.  Don't be too loud, strike up some conversations, and have a nice time.  Most AF/Army clubs in the system allow non-members to buy at a slightly "higher" price off the menus, and make sure you tip the servers, or tenders.  If it is one of those fancy clubs, they may offer other services like a pizza shop, a concessionaire, barber....etc.  No better place to drop some $$ on base/post than at the club.  Have a good time!

While we are on the subject of O-Clubs.....has anyone noticed more and more O's are becoming CONSOLIDATED OPEN MESSES?  Weird right?  Guess financial play a big part!

[TankerT]

Some lessons I have learned from various O-Clubs:

There is often a dress code.  ie - No t-shirts or shorts.  Slacks/pants and a button-down or polo/golf shirt normally work fine.

Sometimes you have to have a club membership to go to the club.  But, they often sell a temporary membership if they require it. 

You're at an O-Club, so act like an Officer.  I.E. clean appearance, no inappropriate comments, etc.  Many of them that I have been to are more like a upper class lounge/club than a bar/restaurant.

Remember that chances are that someone important is there, and if you make that person mad, they can revoke CAPs ability to use the club or base. 

Some O-Clubs have "rules" and they are available for you to review at the membership desk.

[flyguy06]

The project Officer emailed me back and said yes we do get TDY-Officer privileges. So my next question is this: is there any protocol I should know about when in the place? Dining room or bar?
And ... As I'm not a member what is the usual routine to get in or pay for items?
Thanks.

Carry your MSA with you.  Just walk in, (if I am not mistaken it is a consolidated, all-ranks club right?) and do as you would at a restaurant or bar.  I would presume that they have a lunch buffet, perhaps an evening buffet, dinner service and drink service from 1400 to 2359.  No need to wear the CAP uniform, a polo and some pants work rather well.  Don't be too loud, strike up some conversations, and have a nice time.  Most AF/Army clubs in the system allow non-members to buy at a slightly "higher" price off the menus, and make sure you tip the servers, or tenders.  If it is one of those fancy clubs, they may offer other services like a pizza shop, a concessionaire, barber....etc.  No better place to drop some $$ on base/post than at the club.  Have a good time!

While we are on the subject of O-Clubs.....has anyone noticed more and more O's are becoming CONSOLIDATED OPEN MESSES?  Weird right?  Guess financial play a big part!

That , and we are in a new geneartionof military. When I was leaving active duty in 1999, they were doing away with O-clubs and NCO clubs. New generation troops complain about why we have seperate clubs based on rank. it gives an aire of superiority and discrimination to have a club "just" for officers or a club "just" for NCO's. It sends a message that offuicers somehow live or are treated better that enlisted folks. Do i agree withit? No. But it is what it is.

[flyguy06]

Another thing. The culture of the military has changed a lot. Back inthe day a typical officer was a West Point grad, came from a good,affluent family. Today you have a ;ot of offices that arre prior enlisted that came up through OCS (nyself included) They dont really see a need to segregate themselves rom enlisted folks since they used tobe one. SO, they feel very comfortable chiling with Privates and Specialists and Sergeants. They dont see themselves as "above" enlisteds. whereas in the old days officers thought they were all that.

Also, you talk about dress codes. You have to remember that 2LT's are still young people. They dress pretty much the same as that new Private out of basic. a 22 year old 2Lt is inthe same generation as a 20 year old Private so they have similiarities when it comes to social things.

[mikeylikey]

Another thing. The culture of the military has changed a lot. Back inthe day a typical officer was a West Point grad, came from a good,affluent family. Today you have a ;ot of offices that arre prior enlisted that came up through OCS (nyself included) They dont really see a need to segregate themselves rom enlisted folks since they used tobe one. SO, they feel very comfortable chiling with Privates and Specialists and Sergeants. They dont see themselves as "above" enlisteds. whereas in the old days officers thought they were all that.

Also, you talk about dress codes. You have to remember that 2LT's are still young people. They dress pretty much the same as that new Private out of basic. a 22 year old 2Lt is inthe same generation as a 20 year old Private so they have similiarities when it comes to social things.

hold up, wait, wait, Wait, hang on there!  I am going to have to make a stand against everything you just typed.  First, West Point (great as it may be) has never produced the number of Officers that ROTC/OCS/Direct produces (since what.....1920), so the assumption that Officers used to be more affluent and came from better families, although true when Commissions were sold in this country, no longer has merit. 

Second, I will ruin an Officers career if he or she CAN NOT make the distinction between what he or she was and what he or she NOW is.  I have no tolerance for blatant socializing and fraternizing with enlisted Soldiers just because the Officer used to be one.  If that "click" did not happen in OCS or wherever that turned the soldier from enlisted to Officer, I will click it for them.  Granted, there are times when socializing is a good thing.  Senior NCO's, and Officers are usually permitted to join the same O-club.  However you will very rarely see anyone below E-6 in the O-club.  I also enjoy the occasional BBQ with my Senior NCO's at my place or theirs.  I will say this is not the 1950's.  That is, the whole Officer Enlisted total separation thing has almost gone away.  I remember reading the third edition of the Army Officers guide that said "Officers shall have free play to go where they wish on Post, while Enlisted members shall be precluded from venturing on the Officer side of the Post".  Crazy right?   

Third, I stress that Officers are not any better than enlisted members.  However, because it is the military, there is a certain "throw-back" culture.  Officers are expected to be well mannered, well behaved, they should not swear, or talk bad about people.  So act like a lady or gentleman.  That means no cutoffs, and tie-dye t-shirts on those days when all you need to do is "run to the PX" for a case of beer.  I busted my Officers at the PX if they were not clean shaven, or had torn-up clothes on.  No excuse.  That old adage, "An Officer is an Officer, whether on duty or not" APPLIES!!!

Finally, that generation thing you stressed about the similarities between junior Officers and junior Enlisted.  I don't buy that.  Sure people like similar things, but when it comes down to it, those two (the 2LT and Private) will NEVER be found at an all night Beer-Pong tourney together, will most likely not even run into each other unless they are getting gas on Post. 

I will end on.......The segregated club system was in place for over 150 years.  It has given Enlisted and Officers places to go to GET AWAY FROM the OTHER.  You spend all day at work with PFC Jones.  Do you want him to be drinking across the table from you as you are telling your friends about your day?  He does not want that either.  Historically the military is beginning to drop the social and statutory rules and regulations concerning the day to day interactions of Enlisted and Officers.  I can not tell if it will be a good thing or not.  I only hope it does not turn into a similar situation that can be seen in the Netherlands where the enlisted guys vote for their Officers, decide whether they want to train, or even wear a uniform.  (Perhaps I am mistaken about the country, can someone let me know if it is in fact the Netherlands?)

Also, flyguy, spell check makes it ALL WORTH IT, even if it only cathes half of the mistakes!

[Nomex Maximus]

OK, I am completely confused. Please someone straighten me out before I do something stupid.

I will be going to the GLR Region conference at Grissom AFB next weekend. The only uniforms I intend to bring will be flightsuit and BDU.  I will not be staying on base; I will be at a hotel. ZI have no idea what an MSA is.

Can I use the officer's club? What services are there? Bar, restaurant? Is a BDU uniform acceptable?

My only real motivation for going to one of these is to socialize with the military folks, etc.

[isuhawkeye]

My personal experience

MSA is as close to documented orders as CAP gets.  they are written by the LO shop and issued to give you an official status on base. 

All bases have different services.  Most bases have some form of Club. 

Most O clubs are nice dinner/cocktail establishments.  Usually BDU's. and Flight Suits are NOT appropriate for the club. 

[BillB]

Even the flightsuit is inappropriate for a Region Conference. For an O-club blues or civilian suits are most often worn, and many O-clubs require service coat with the blue uniform after 1800.

[O-Rex]

OK, I am completely confused. Please someone straighten me out before I do something stupid.

I will be going to the GLR Region conference at Grissom AFB next weekend. The only uniforms I intend to bring will be flightsuit and BDU.  I will not be staying on base; I will be at a hotel. ZI have no idea what an MSA is.

Can I use the officer's club? What services are there? Bar, restaurant? Is a BDU uniform acceptable?

My only real motivation for going to one of these is to socialize with the military folks, etc.

You're going to a Region Conference and all you are bringing is flightsuits & BDU's?

Gee, I guess they do things a little different up north.....

Also, If you are attending a CAP conference, your leisure time might best be spent socializing and networking with other CAP members than trying to absorb the ambience at the local O-club: they are not what the movies and TV portray them to be.....

[Nomex Maximus]

I specifically asked the organizer of the event if BDUs were OK for the conference and she said yes. The information brochure for it only listed blues or flightsuits but she said BDUs were OK too.

[isuhawkeye]

Hides under the table as the incoming uniform barrage begins

[Short Field]

Standard TDY uniform for officers (almost a bad joke and definitely not a fashion statement):  Polo shirt with collar and tan Dockers.   That should get you in the bar and dining room.  Flight suits and BDUs are "work" uniforms and normally not appropriate for the dining room after 1700.

With the reduction in the size of the military, a lot of O'clubs did not have the numbers to stay open if they just catered to officers.  Hence consolidated clubs.  A lot of the consolidated clubs had separate bars for officers and enlisted.  Makes a lot of sense as you don't really want to be around the source of your work stress as you try to unwind.  It also caused them to opened up the dining room to almost anyone who could legally get on base.  

As to the "social strata", I remember when most bases had "all-ranks" clubs that catered to the lower enlisted as you had to be an NCO to join the NCO club.  The majority of people on base were not NCOs or Officers but young enlised.  The MSgts didn't want to unwind around the A1Cs - or snot-nosed 2nd Lts either.

As to behavoir, Officers are NEVER off duty - reguardless of what uniform or non-uniform is being worn - and expected to act as such.  You are a guest in THEIR club, so behave accordingly.

[Nomex Maximus]

I think I will just try to go off base and find a nice Chinese place or an Outback instead.

[O-Rex]

I specifically asked the organizer of the event if BDUs were OK for the conference and she said yes. The information brochure for it only listed blues or flightsuits but she said BDUs were OK too.

Advice: check with a 'seasoned' member who's been to a conference or two as to the dress code: normally they are service-dress affairs.

As a general rule, keep the right uniform for the right occasion, heaven knows we have enough to choose from..

[Short Field]

I think I will just try to go off base and find a nice Chinese place or an Outback instead.

Then look for the guys in the polo shirts and tan Dockers, cause that is what most TDY officers do as well - especially if they have a few enlisted folks with them on the TDY that they want to join for dinner.   

[MIKE]

I specifically asked the organizer of the event if BDUs were OK for the conference and she said yes. The information brochure for it only listed blues or flightsuits but she said BDUs were OK too.

Advice: check with a 'seasoned' member who's been to a conference or two as to the dress code: normally they are service-dress affairs.

As a general rule, keep the right uniform for the right occasion, heaven knows we have enough to choose from..

You can't go wrong with the minimum basic service uniform or aviator shirt combo.

[Nomex Maximus]

Here is the conference info packet. Note the uniform section on the second page.

[pixelwonk]

small detail: It's an ES/Ops conference.
The multiforms of the day are:
Blues
Alternative CAP Uniforms
Golf Shirts/Gray Pants
CAP/AF Flight Suit

[Flying Pig]

Another thing. The culture of the military has changed a lot. Back inthe day a typical officer was a West Point grad, came from a good,affluent family. Today you have a ;ot of offices that arre prior enlisted that came up through OCS (nyself included) They dont really see a need to segregate themselves rom enlisted folks since they used tobe one. SO, they feel very comfortable chiling with Privates and Specialists and Sergeants. They dont see themselves as "above" enlisteds. whereas in the old days officers thought they were all that.

Also, you talk about dress codes. You have to remember that 2LT's are still young people. They dress pretty much the same as that new Private out of basic. a 22 year old 2Lt is inthe same generation as a 20 year old Private so they have similiarities when it comes to social things.



I was in the Marines.....Officers do not "chill" with enlisted on or off duty.  I dont think anyone saw it as the officer seeing himself as being better.  As an enlisted and later as a Sgt. I really didnt want to "chill" with the officers either.  I wanted to be with other NCO's.

Sure on deployment, the NCO's might have a beer or two with the Plt Commander and socialize for a while but it was professional and in a neutral place.  Then we parted and went our separate ways.  
It has nothing to do with segregation.  I was not in combat as a Marine but I would imagine that if it was going to be important to have that separation, now days would be the time.
So it sounds like your Officer/enlisted culture believes that the only thing different about them is the color of the metal on their collars?  You definition of 20 yr old enlisted and 22 yr old officers being from the same culture is a little off.  It has always been that way. Its not new.  Privates and 2Lt.s have always been similar in ages.   What about the 40 yr old Col. and the 40 yr old Gunny?  Should they hang out also?

Every Plt Commander I have had was prior enlisted and I never got the impression they thought they were better than me.  So in regards to the old days.........Are we talking about the "affluent" "all that" officers who led us through WW2, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm?  Most professional NCO's I have known have had the same view regarding the NCO/officer relationship also.  It has always been mutual.  The people who had the problem with it were the ones who didnt like the fact that officers had special privileges.  Thats what they were mad about.

You may want to either read or watch the interviews on combat leadership with Lt. Col Richard Winters who was the person featured in the Band of Brothers series.  Youll find he didnt agree with your view of officers "chilling" with enlisted.  And he was prior enlisted himself.  But that was 60 years ago....I guess kids are different now.  Officers are always held to a higher standard.

As a Plt Sgt. I was the same age as my 1Lt Plt Commander.  I didnt care how he dressed or what his hobbies were and I dont recall him ever asking me.  As much as I liked believing it was "my" platoon, it wasnt.  If the s&*t  hit the fan one day, we were looking to him.  In a year of being together and a deployment I can honestly say never saw him out of uniform.  Just because they may be doing away with NCO and O clubs I dont think is meant to be a green light for everyone to start "chillin" together.

[O-Rex]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

It's a bit easier, emotionally to send Private Jones on a mission from which he may not return than it is to send "Johnny Jones" your drinking buddy.

It is not a 'class-thing,' it's about balancing your relationship with your subordinates and the needs of the mission, lest you lose objectivity when the time comes to do the job.   

Remember that the essence of the military is doing what others wouldn't want to do, in places they wouldn't want to go: that creates bonds and barriers that are unique to military culture.

[mikeylikey]

About the Flightsuits and BDU's.......if you are flying in perhaps a flightsuit, then something to change into.  At a minimum, this is supposed to be a professional conference, lets wear polos and such as we will be inside, and we really should not be wearing flightsuits to bars and restaurants off base anyway.  Poor choice on the planners part.  (YES....I am not attending, but I did speak in the first person, to carry my thoughts....or was that the second person?)  Let us know how the event went anyway........get as much out of it as possible.  If you can "acquire" powerpoints and electronic media if available to take.  We like to share resources around here.  HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!

[Nomex Maximus]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

It's a bit easier, emotionally to send Private Jones on a mission from which he may not return than it is to send "Johnny Jones" your drinking buddy.

It is not a 'class-thing,' it's about balancing your relationship with your subordinates and the needs of the mission, lest you lose objectivity when the time comes to do the job.   

Remember that the essence of the military is doing what others wouldn't want to do, in places they wouldn't want to go: that creates bonds and barriers that are unique to military culture.

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems. I know, I know, the military has been doing things this way for thousands of years, and I am just a civilian who doesn't understand, blah blah blah... it's all totally bogus. I would expect a whole lot more from a 21 century  American military professional whether he/she be a private or a general than for them to have to resort to silliness like not being able to go to the bar after work and chat over a beer.

All Americans are equals and all CAP and all military are supposed to be profesionals and we should be able to know when respect and obedience is required and when it isn't. I think it's time the military moved away from 18th century customs and meshed with 21st century social standards.

Just my opinion.

[Short Field]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

A bit of separation helps ensure that your troops trust your fairness in deciding which ones get the bad jobs vs the better jobs - because you have no "buds" to take care of.  When the cow droppings really hit the fan, most of us don't really want our commander to be "just like us" but to actually be the greatest military leader since Alexander - and makes all the right decisions that gets our butts safely out of a jam.
   

[SarDragon]

The inherent task of the military precludes overfamiliarity between commanders and those he may very well have to send into harm's way.

It's a bit easier, emotionally to send Private Jones on a mission from which he may not return than it is to send "Johnny Jones" your drinking buddy.

It is not a 'class-thing,' it's about balancing your relationship with your subordinates and the needs of the mission, lest you lose objectivity when the time comes to do the job.   

Remember that the essence of the military is doing what others wouldn't want to do, in places they wouldn't want to go: that creates bonds and barriers that are unique to military culture.

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems. I know, I know, the military has been doing things this way for thousands of years, and I am just a civilian who doesn't understand, blah blah blah... it's all totally bogus. I would expect a whole lot more from a 21 century  American military professional whether he/she be a private or a general than for them to have to resort to silliness like not being able to go to the bar after work and chat over a beer.

All Americans are equals and all CAP and all military are supposed to be profesionals and we should be able to know when respect and obedience is required and when it isn't. I think it's time the military moved away from 18th century customs and meshed with 21st century social standards.

Just my opinion.

Wel, having been in or around the military culture all my life, I can say that it's not bogus. I pretty much agree with O-Rex's comments.

Corporate structures are more similar to the military than you think. Joe Schmuckatelli down in the mail room is rarely on a first name basis with the CEO. In fact, they have probably never met. The larger the company, the more likely this is true. So this is not a military only practice.

As for the bolded statement, many military people can't do just exactly what you expect, especially the enlisted folks. They seem to think that if they can share a beer with an officer at a unit social event, that they are instantly on a first name basis 24/7. T'aint so.

I learned very early in life, as a Navy Junior, that there was a pecking order, and there were time when it was strictly observed, and time when it was loosened up.  As an enlisted person, I had a number of officer friends; a couple were even in my chain of command. We shared first names in civilian clothes, and maintained the proper military courtesies when either or both of us were in uniform. Many folks can't sem to maintain that distinction.

In CAP, my wing commander is always Colonel Whoever, until I'm invited to use first names. Even then, I restrict that practice to a SM only environment.

These practices are a part of the culture, and I'm not sure they need to change.

YMMV.

[Flying Pig]

by Nomex Maximus....

I am just a civilian who doesn't understand, blah blah blah...

You nailed it right there.  Good job.

[Nomex Maximus]

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy. But even so, an employee is supposed to know when to go to his supervisor about a problem and when to go to the head of the company. And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

[flyguy06]

Another thing. The culture of the military has changed a lot. Back inthe day a typical officer was a West Point grad, came from a good,affluent family. Today you have a ;ot of offices that arre prior enlisted that came up through OCS (nyself included) They dont really see a need to segregate themselves rom enlisted folks since they used tobe one. SO, they feel very comfortable chiling with Privates and Specialists and Sergeants. They dont see themselves as "above" enlisteds. whereas in the old days officers thought they were all that.

Also, you talk about dress codes. You have to remember that 2LT's are still young people. They dress pretty much the same as that new Private out of basic. a 22 year old 2Lt is inthe same generation as a 20 year old Private so they have similiarities when it comes to social things.

hold up, wait, wait, Wait, hang on there!  I am going to have to make a stand against everything you just typed.  First, West Point (great as it may be) has never produced the number of Officers that ROTC/OCS/Direct produces (since what.....1920), so the assumption that Officers used to be more affluent and came from better families, although true when Commissions were sold in this country, no longer has merit. 

thats the time period I am referring to. secondly, Do you realize how many Prince hall masons are in the Army in both the enlisted and officer ranks? Every time I get deployed I see Officers that are Masons and I see NCO's thatare Masons. When they have boat rides or get togethers they are all there. Now obviously during work hours, its a different situation. When I was enlisted in the regular Army as an E4, I would "chill " with my Fraternity brothers all the time. My brothers were Colnels, majors and one was a two star (didnt see him much though). Marines do it to. I have a frat brother who is a Marine Corp Major. heck, my cousin is a USMC Captain.
Anyway, now that I am onthe officer side of the house I have enlisted friends not in my chain of command that I socialize with. have you been to OBC lately? Fresh out of colleg eLT's wear baggy pants just like fresh out of basic Privates. They listen to hip hop, they go out drinking. I have been to basic tarining and I have been to IOBC. Off duty there is little difference.

[flyguy06]

Finally, that generation thing you stressed about the similarities between junior Officers and junior Enlisted.  I don't buy that.  Sure people like similar things, but when it comes down to it, those two (the 2LT and Private) will NEVER be found at an all night Beer-Pong tourney together, will most likely not even run into each other unless they are getting gas on Post. 

What is Beer pong? Have you ever been on a boat-ride?

[O-Rex]

We've strayed off-topic a bit, but Nomex, I'm not giving an opinion, I'm simply stating fact regarding the mindset of Officer/Enlisted and/or Senior/subordinate relationships in the Military. 

Admittedly, CAP culture in this regard is a bit 'watered-down,' given some of our unique characteristics, i.e., Maj's and Lt. Col's assigned to units commanded by 1st Lt's, but our organization and the Air Force to which we are affiliated are founded by the same men who were the very embodiment of these principles.

If you think the U.S. Military is socially stratified, you should spend some time with foreign military-much more formal, and lines more clearly drawn.

You can agree with it or not, but if you want to hang out in the military community, O-club or wherever, you need to understand the culture and mind-set of it's members.  If not, you will feel out of place, and present a somewhat awkward presence, invoking snickers and an unkind comment or two from the card-carrying members.

We mean no offense, just friendly advice from those wear (or wore) a uniform for a living.

[Nomex Maximus]

We've strayed off-topic a bit, but Nomex, I'm not giving an opinion, I'm simply stating fact regarding the mindset of Officer/Enlisted and/or Senior/subordinate relationships in the Military. 

Admittedly, CAP culture in this regard is a bit 'watered-down,' given some of our unique characteristics, i.e., Maj's and Lt. Col's assigned to units commanded by 1st Lt's, but our organization and the Air Force to which we are affiliated are founded by the same men who were the very embodiment of these principles.

If you think the U.S. Military is socially stratified, you should spend some time with foreign military-much more formal, and lines more clearly drawn.

You can agree with it or not, but if you want to hang out in the military community, O-club or wherever, you need to understand the culture and mind-set of it's members.  If not, you will feel out of place, and present a somewhat awkward presence, invoking snickers and an unkind comment or two from the card-carrying members.

We mean no offense, just friendly advice from those wear (or wore) a uniform for a living.

I am just trying to fit in socially in this strange situation I find myself in. That is why I am asking.

I am a civilian who is "sort of" associated with the AF, who wears an AF style uniform and its just weird at times. I am 48 but I am wearing BDUs with 2d Lt on them. Anyone else who wears a uniform has been doing it night and day for months or years and knows all of the rules and expectations. Me, I just put this thing on when I go to a meeting here or there. Once in a while I find myself on a military base and then I really feel out of place because there are all these weird rules/customs/courtesies that make little sense to me personally but which are highly important to the military folks around me.

Like really, can you imagine Outback or Applebees or Olive Garden or any other restaurant chain turning away customers because they showed up not wearing a coat and tie to dinner? I mean when I worked at McDonnell-Douglas years ago it was common for us to go out to lunch at the executive dining room and have lunch with the top execs - had lunch once with John himself. Not a big deal in the civilian world but apparently a big deal in the military world.

I know, I could just wear the golf shirt, but in my mind that is even worse. And I don't *do* suits or ties. It's a BDU uniform or blue jeans for me.

I will see how things go at the conference and just try to fit in.

--NM

[O-Rex]

NM:

I'm going to let you in on a little secret-I know of some high ranking folks, military and CAP, who've spent years successfully climbing the ladder, and when they put on a uniform with all the frosting & sprinkles and check themselves in the mirror, they still  think to themselves "Gee, is that really me?"

Don't let the costumes or the pomp & circumstance thow you-just relax, be yourself, and enjoy.

[mikeylikey]

Anyway, now that I am onthe officer side of the house I have enlisted friends not in my chain of command that I socialize with. have you been to OBC lately? Fresh out of colleg e LT's wear baggy pants just like fresh out of basic Privates. They listen to hip hop, they go out drinking. I have been to basic tarining and I have been to IOBC. Off duty there is little difference.

Not sure what OBC you went to, but I spent almost a year of my life teaching at FAOBC.  I attended both FAOBC and Advanced, and I will say what you are speaking of, does not exist.  I am going to make a long guess and say that you are the LT who still wears baggy pants, blasts your hip-hop at 3AM, etc??  I am also going to guess that you are not Active Duty, you only did AD for training (OBC, BOLC?).  I have seen new LT's that are on AD strictly for initial training show up, and act like they are still in a frat.  Needless to say that disappears within 2 weeks, when the CoC cracks down.  I don't know you, but am guessing you are not yet into 3 years of Commissioned service?  You tend to comment as though you still live in a Frat house, and party every night.  I am not one to judge, but saying you openly socialize with enlisted guys who may or may not be in your CoC is not a good idea.  I suggest you look up Fraternization, as it is a very serious offense for Officers, and the very slightest appearance can mean an end to your career. 

Also, drinking may be big in the military, but Officers do not advertise what they do in their time off. 

OK OK OK..........Wow....way off topic, back to the O-club.

I am a believer that Officers and Enlisted need separate outlets for camaraderie.  I will not ever go eat in the Dining Facility on the basic training side of the Post, not because I "hate" enlisted guys, but they don't need to feel that the Officers are always around.  Just as much as I want to be able to talk shop and gripe about enlisted guys to my friends at the club without a SGT being behind me. 

To those that said there should be less distinction between Officers and Enlisted, I think that would lead to poor performance in operations. 

So, as a CAP member if you are presented with an opportunity to dine and or drink at an Officers Club, take the chance!  For all intents and purposes, the AF has said you can wear Officer insignia, just act like it!   

[JohnKachenmeister]

Mikey...

You are correct in everything you have posted.  I am former enlisted, and while I do not consider myself "Better" than enlisted, I do have different responsibilities.  Among those responsibilities is the duty to be and APPEAR to be fair in all of my dealings with troops.  I cannot have some soldier thinking that I have treated him differently because he's not one of my "Buds."

There are times for social interaction, unit picnics and cookouts, end-of-exercise parties, etc.  At these events, yes, there IS a loosening of roles.  That's why the CO usually gets thrown in a pool or a lake during the party.  (When in command, never carry your pager, cellphone, sidearm, wallet, or anything else that can be damaged by water to the unit party)  When I commanded a company, I had a collection of wild, tasteless and gaudy Hawaiian shirts that I would wear at such functions.  It became a personal trademark, and was amusing to the troopers.

Patton summed it up succinctly:  "An officer is always on parade."

Of course, now that I live in Florida, those shirts are known as "Semi-formal attire."

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think I will just try to go off base and find a nice Chinese place or an Outback instead.

Usually clubs have a side bar where BDU's and flight suits are appropriate.  That's usually where everybody is.  In the main club and dining room, its best to err on the side of being a bit too formal. Especially up north.  In the South the weather usually dictates that shorts and open collar shirts (NOT T-shirts) are apporpriate.  I don't think I'd wear shorts to the club anywhere else. 

Officer clubs are very similar, in dress and deportment requirements, and in atmosphere, to exclusive civilian country clubs.

[SAR-EMT1]

So would it be better for CAP types to use the main dining room / bar or the smaller dining room / bar ? .... wish they covered O-Club Ettiquite 101 in ROTC 

[Nomex Maximus]

From what I read here, the military life is way, way, way too wacky for me to understand.

As for the O-Club, I will see what happens. If a bunch of CAP types go there and invite me along (in my beautiful brand new BDUs) and they let me in the door, great. Otherwise, it will be the nearest Outback or Cracker Barrel within 15 miles.

[star1151]

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems.

As the daughter of two Navy officers and sister of a USMC officer, I can say that it's certainly NOT bogus and there for a good reason.   You already got an explanation of why it's not, but I figured I'd throw in my agreement.  Spend some time in the military as enlisted or an officer and you'll see that's it's a different world.  Maybe it seems normal to me because I grew up around it, but I cannot imagine going into an O-club wearing BDU's and acting like it's some throwback to the 20's.  Respect the culture, even if you don't agree with it.  If you can't respect it, don't get involved.

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy.

You're talking two different things.  My manager has an open door policy.  Does that mean I can fly to headquarters and pop in on the CEO?  No.  Why in the world would that be desirable?  Clearly, our culture is working for us (if you knew who I worked for you, you'd agree), and I wouldn't have it any other way.

And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

Stratification does NOT mean superiority in the least. 

Frankly, in my civilian job, fraternization is frowned upon.  Blurs the lines of authority, just like in the military.  I have two employees who report to me, who want to be my best friend, but it just doesn't work that way.  Be too familiar with an employee, and you'll find them refusing to do something because they think they can get away with it.

BTW, as someone who once quit a job because she was being harassed for being a college grad, I can say that the non-management folks can dish it out just as much as they claim management does.

[flyguy06]

Anyway, now that I am onthe officer side of the house I have enlisted friends not in my chain of command that I socialize with. have you been to OBC lately? Fresh out of colleg e LT's wear baggy pants just like fresh out of basic Privates. They listen to hip hop, they go out drinking. I have been to basic tarining and I have been to IOBC. Off duty there is little difference.

Not sure what OBC you went to, but I spent almost a year of my life teaching at FAOBC.  I attended both FAOBC and Advanced, and I will say what you are speaking of, does not exist.  I am going to make a long guess and say that you are the LT who still wears baggy pants, blasts your hip-hop at 3AM, etc??  I am also going to guess that you are not Active Duty, you only did AD for training (OBC, BOLC?).  I have seen new LT's that are on AD strictly for initial training show up, and act like they are still in a frat.  Needless to say that disappears within 2 weeks, when the CoC cracks down.  I don't know you, but am guessing you are not yet into 3 years of Commissioned service?  You tend to comment as though you still live in a Frat house, and party every night.  I am not one to judge, but saying you openly socialize with enlisted guys who may or may not be in your CoC is not a good idea.  I suggest you look up Fraternization, as it is a very serious offense for Officers, and the very slightest appearance can mean an end to your career. 

Also, drinking may be big in the military, but Officers do not advertise what they do in their time off. 

OK OK OK..........Wow....way off topic, back to the O-club.

You are WRONG on so many counts there. First off, I am 38 years old. So,no I do NOT wear baggy pants nor listen to a lot of hip hop. Is it your suggestion that active duty officers do not listen to hip hop? Well, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, i am a Guard Officer. Prior to that I was in the Regular Army as an 11B soldier staioned in the 25th ID. How long have you been on active duty? i have 19 years of service this year. half of that was active duty. Oh, and no, I do not drink alcohol of any kind. I dont drink or smoke.  I have been commissioned for 5 years. I make reference to my "frat" brothers because if you know anything about African Amercian Fraternities you would realize that Alumni chapters are very active. fraternity life is not just a college thing and fraternity life doesnt mean parties and drinking. In African American fraternities we do tons of community outreach, mentoring and role modeling. We give scholorships todeserving students and we help shape the youths of this country.

[Nomex Maximus]

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems.

As the daughter of two Navy officers and sister of a USMC officer, I can say that it's certainly NOT bogus and there for a good reason.   You already got an explanation of why it's not, but I figured I'd throw in my agreement.  Spend some time in the military as enlisted or an officer and you'll see that's it's a different world.  Maybe it seems normal to me because I grew up around it, but I cannot imagine going into an O-club wearing BDU's and acting like it's some throwback to the 20's.  Respect the culture, even if you don't agree with it.  If you can't respect it, don't get involved.

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy.

You're talking two different things.  My manager has an open door policy.  Does that mean I can fly to headquarters and pop in on the CEO?  No.  Why in the world would that be desirable?  Clearly, our culture is working for us (if you knew who I worked for you, you'd agree), and I wouldn't have it any other way.

And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

Stratification does NOT mean superiority in the least. 

Frankly, in my civilian job, fraternization is frowned upon.  Blurs the lines of authority, just like in the military.  I have two employees who report to me, who want to be my best friend, but it just doesn't work that way.  Be too familiar with an employee, and you'll find them refusing to do something because they think they can get away with it.

BTW, as someone who once quit a job because she was being harassed for being a college grad, I can say that the non-management folks can dish it out just as much as they claim management does.

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

I have great difficulty believing that a real leader and a real set of professionals working together cannot figure out when it's time to act military and when it's time to act normal, when it's time for formal procedures and when it's time to relax. Sort of like doctors and nurses in an ER. Imagine a military where people didn't have to shout at each other to get things done...

The reason I don't pal around with the guy two or three levels above me in the org chart is that he and I don't really have much of anything in common work wise. He does spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations and I do engineering. Now, if he had regular reason to come over to my desk and interact with me, then I would have no problem inviting him along for lunch, etc. No social stratification and no problems because of fraternization. In fact, if he was frequently interacting with me but then gave off a vibe of "don't socialize or associate with me", well, I would likely start putting empty pizza cartons, cigarette butts and empty beer bottles in his office after hours. And "water" his potted plants. Just like I did at Raytheon...

[AlphaSigOU]

Flyguy06 is absolutely right... The predominantly African-American Prince Hall Masons and the NPHC (National Pan Hellenic Conference) fraternities, unlike their 'mainstream' (read: predominantly white) brethren take their brotherhood very seriously; as he also mentioned their alumni network and community outreach is one of the most active. It isn't just for college years alone. Up until a few years ago, Prince Hall and 'mainstream' Masonry didn't see eye to eye in a form of discrimination that is finally being reversed.

For the record, I am a Mason and a member of a college fraternity (Alpha Sigma Phi).

Back on topic...

In this day and age, economics have closed down officers/NCO/airmen's clubs or forced them to consolidate under one building as an 'all ranks' club. The separation between officer and enlisted is now in the separate lounge or bar. Navy officers on large ships will congregate in the 'dirty shirt' wardroom, where wash khakis, 'poopie suits' and flight suits are the norm.

[Short Field]

Flyguy06 is absolutely right... The predominantly African-American Prince Hall Masons and the NPHC (National Pan Hellenic Conference) fraternities, unlike their 'mainstream' (read: predominantly white) brethren take their brotherhood very seriously

I was taught that what takes place in Lodge, stays in Lodge.  I never saw (and expect to never see) a Brother presume on our Fraternal relationship in a military situation.  Something about respect...

[fyrfitrmedic]

Flyguy06 is absolutely right... The predominantly African-American Prince Hall Masons and the NPHC (National Pan Hellenic Conference) fraternities, unlike their 'mainstream' (read: predominantly white) brethren take their brotherhood very seriously

I was taught that what takes place in Lodge, stays in Lodge.  I never saw (and expect to never see) a Brother presume on our Fraternal relationship in a military situation.  Something about respect...

I have seen this a time or two in CAP, unfortunately.

[AlphaSigOU]

I was taught that what takes place in Lodge, stays in Lodge.  I never saw (and expect to never see) a Brother presume on our Fraternal relationship in a military situation.  Something about respect...

And I am mindful of my obligation when it comes to the internal business of the lodge. What I've stated is publicly available knowledge; if it steps on any toes then I'll redact it.

[Short Field]

I am mindful of my obligation when it comes to the internal business of the lodge.

You missed the point.  However I am addressed or how I address others within a lodge (or a lodge function) stays within the lodge.  It has nothing to do with the "outside" world.  No one cares that "Tim" is a Two-Star General.  He is just another brother and only due the respect earned within the fraternity.  HOWEVER, once back in the "outside" world, there would be no attempt to presume on that relationship and call him "Tim".  I am sure this applies to other Fraternal Organizations as well. 

For that matter, I saw very few salutes exchanged when the guys I went to high school with got together again at class reunions after various tours of duty.

However, the main issue here is proper behavior and dress when visiting an Officer's Club on an Air Force Base.  Previous posts have spelled out what is expected.    And if anyone thinks proper behavior and dress is just an "Officer thing", feel free to visit your the nearest NCO Club and address the Command Sergeant Major or Command Chief Master Sergeant by their first name in front of their peers or lower enlisted ranks.  You will probably be better doing it to "Tim" at the O'Club.

[Short Field]

 [/quote]I have seen this a time or two in CAP, unfortunately.
[/quote]

Some people need all the help they can get.     They only bring disrespect to themselves.

[star1151]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Since you have zero experience in or around the military (I'd count CAP, but I don't think you've been a member for much longer than I have), I'm very curious as to how you came to that incorrect conclusion.

But not curious enough to continue reading comments by someone who clearly has no respect for the military and resorts to childish behavior AT WORK when he feels he has been wronged.  Just....wow.

[PHall]

NM, do yourself a favor and stay out of the club.
You'll be much happier going downtown.

[Cecil DP]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Several military organizations have interacted in just the way Mr Maximus would like. Both the Russian and Chinese militaries under Mao, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin started out with "Peoples Armies" where the decisions were made according to consenus. Each abandoned these policies as soon as they realized they were spending more time fighting among themselves over policies and trying to unF*** the system that resulted than they were winning the war. (Also resulted in a lot of people dying in front of a wall because of the complete dysfunction caused by the "proletarian policies").

[Nomex Maximus]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Several military organizations have interacted in just the way Mr Maximus would like. Both the Russian and Chinese militaries under Mao, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin started out with "Peoples Armies" where the decisions were made according to consenus. Each abandoned these policies as soon as they realized they were spending more time fighting among themselves over policies and trying to unF*** the system that resulted than they were winning the war. (Also resulted in a lot of people dying in front of a wall because of the complete dysfunction caused by the "proletarian policies").

*sigh* I am not suggesting that we replace the US Military with communism. Really.

[Nomex Maximus]

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

Since you have zero experience in or around the military (I'd count CAP, but I don't think you've been a member for much longer than I have), I'm very curious as to how you came to that incorrect conclusion.

But not curious enough to continue reading comments by someone who clearly has no respect for the military and resorts to childish behavior AT WORK when he feels he has been wronged.  Just....wow.

It was a *JOKE*. An attempt at *HUMOR*. Get it? *SHEESH*. If I didn't have any respect for the military I wouldn't be asking about appropriate coutesies at a military club. Why don't you go to your nearest O-club. You need to *RELAX*. Chill.

[Short Field]

Mid-1980s was about the last time an Officer could afford to go to the O'Club and get "shloshed" - if he had a designated driver or could walk home.  By the 1990s, you were taking your career in your hands even if you had a designated driver.  Most people I know went to the "two drinks then home" rule.

The 1970's were nice.....

[SAR-EMT1]

Mid-1980s was about the last time an Officer could afford to go to the O'Club and get "shloshed" - if he had a designated driver or could walk home.  By the 1990s, you were taking your career in your hands even if you had a designated driver.  Most people I know went to the "two drinks then home" rule.

The 1970's were nice.....

Want to expand on that last? 

[star1151]

It was a *JOKE*. An attempt at *HUMOR*. Get it? *SHEESH*. If I didn't have any respect for the military I wouldn't be asking about appropriate coutesies at a military club. Why don't you go to your nearest O-club and get shloshed. You need to *RELAX*. Chill, baby.

It's not funny.  And neither is suggesting that ANYONE, much less a pilot, get "shloshed" somewhere.  And I'd appreciate it if you did not refer to me as "baby".  Would you do that at work or in a CAP activity?  I think not.

[JohnKachenmeister]

So would it be better for CAP types to use the main dining room / bar or the smaller dining room / bar ? .... wish they covered O-Club Ettiquite 101 in ROTC 

Oh, Heck no!  Go into the side bar.  That's where everybody is.  Have a beer, relax, chat.  You will find that the RM officers will have a LOT of questions about CAP. 

The only people you will find in the main bar and the dining room are the old retired colonels and the widows (looking for a single old retired colonel).

[mikeylikey]

The only people you will find in the main bar and the dining room are the old retired colonels and the widows (looking for a single old retired colonel).

Jackpot baby!  Easy life here I come!

[Nomex Maximus]

It's not funny.  And neither is suggesting that ANYONE, much less a pilot, get "shloshed" somewhere.  And I'd appreciate it if you did not refer to me as "baby".  Would you do that at work or in a CAP activity?  I think not.

We are talking about the O-Club. They drink there, don't they?

And, in response to your question, actually I might. If I thought the person in question had a sense of humor. I went back and redacted the posting, but we are a tad bit uptight, aren't we?

Chill, esteemed fellow CAP member.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, this may be straying from the topic,  but speaking as a civilian who wears a CAP uniform, this whole "officers don't fraternize with subordinates" is totally bogus. If military people can't figure out when to turn the rank thing on and off then well, I think they have got some major problems.

As the daughter of two Navy officers and sister of a USMC officer, I can say that it's certainly NOT bogus and there for a good reason.   You already got an explanation of why it's not, but I figured I'd throw in my agreement.  Spend some time in the military as enlisted or an officer and you'll see that's it's a different world.  Maybe it seems normal to me because I grew up around it, but I cannot imagine going into an O-club wearing BDU's and acting like it's some throwback to the 20's.  Respect the culture, even if you don't agree with it.  If you can't respect it, don't get involved.

Actually, in corporate culture, it IS entirely appropriate for the CEO and the mailroom guy to be on a first name basis. In fact, desirable for many reasons. Most advertise that they have an open door policy.

You're talking two different things.  My manager has an open door policy.  Does that mean I can fly to headquarters and pop in on the CEO?  No.  Why in the world would that be desirable?  Clearly, our culture is working for us (if you knew who I worked for you, you'd agree), and I wouldn't have it any other way.

And I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to work in a company where the management felt they were somehow socially superior... wait a minute, I DID work for a comany like that -  Raytheon! And I walked off that job after about six months of that nonsense.

Stratification does NOT mean superiority in the least. 

Frankly, in my civilian job, fraternization is frowned upon.  Blurs the lines of authority, just like in the military.  I have two employees who report to me, who want to be my best friend, but it just doesn't work that way.  Be too familiar with an employee, and you'll find them refusing to do something because they think they can get away with it.

BTW, as someone who once quit a job because she was being harassed for being a college grad, I can say that the non-management folks can dish it out just as much as they claim management does.

Nope. Sorry. Don't agree. The reason the military does it the way they do it is because they have always done it that way. They have no experience trying it any other way, so they don't know if their way is the only way that will work. Since they have an adequate working system in place they have no reason to think about trying to change it.

I have great difficulty believing that a real leader and a real set of professionals working together cannot figure out when it's time to act military and when it's time to act normal, when it's time for formal procedures and when it's time to relax. Sort of like doctors and nurses in an ER. Imagine a military where people didn't have to shout at each other to get things done...

The reason I don't pal around with the guy two or three levels above me in the org chart is that he and I don't really have much of anything in common work wise. He does spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations and I do engineering. Now, if he had regular reason to come over to my desk and interact with me, then I would have no problem inviting him along for lunch, etc. No social stratification and no problems because of fraternization. In fact, if he was frequently interacting with me but then gave off a vibe of "don't socialize or associate with me", well, I would likely start putting empty pizza cartons, cigarette butts and empty beer bottles in his office after hours. And "water" his potted plants. Just like I did at Raytheon...

Are you even reading any of these posts?  Or do you simply reject any that don't fit your preconceived notions?

First of all, I never shout at anyone.  I am an officer and a gentleman.  The ONLY time I might shout is to make sure my orders were heard over the background noise, like explosions and gunfire.  If one of my NCO's has to shout at someone more than once, it is time that the NCO referred that troop for higher-level discipline.  

Secondly, there ARE times when roles are relaxed.  I cited a few.  Others include medical teams, aircrews, and similar small units where officers and NCO's work in close harmony.
Also, if an officer does not have a close relationship with his top NCO, such that they can close the door and relax over coffee together, the unit will be somewhat non-harmonious.  There is officer business, sergeant's business, and a time to sit down and chat informally about both.

Third, the military is ALWAYS experimenting with new management techniques, and is open to such experimentation.  Every so often civilians discover that military managements still works better than anything some MBA can come up with, and the experiments the military has employed have seldom worked in the long-term.

I mean, if we were not open to experimentation, how do you explain Carlson's Raiders in the Marine Corps in the Makin Island operation?

[Nomex Maximus]

I am reading the posts.

The military I remember was full of shouting. Threats and violence. Occasional deaths in training. Sorry, but that is what my memory has. I was enlisted.

In any event, we have been discussing the issue of segregated social situations which frankly are *weird* and unnatural to civilians. Segregated social situations which have been obsolete in modern American culture for decades. And since most CAP members are essentially civilians, this takes some explaining to understand how to fit in correctly when we are around the military.

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It does not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so. And simply because I do not have a career in the military does not disqualify me from being able to voice an opinion about how it might better be done.

The fact that this discussion generates so much internet heat is just the reason why we needed to ask about how to fit in. I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*, or being told that I should not *fraternize* with people of *lower rank* because doing so might generate a huge rip in the space-time continuum.

[Short Field]

I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*

I am sure you are in fine company with the millions and millions of good and upstanding people that also shared your dining experiences.  However, there are many restaurants that do have a dress code - of which a coat & tie is the minimum.  I have eaten at several resturants here in the US where I had to wear a "loaner" tie and jacket because my bags were delayed or I didn't expect to need to be that dressed up.  When I lived in Europe, I ended up having to buy a "smoker" to attend various social functions.  I literally wore it out and am now on my second one.   A "smoker" is what they call a tuxedo and they use it to dress up and go out partying.   

The O'Club is the Officers' club and as such, they can expect any level of decorum they desire - especially from their Guests.   They only want to make enough money to break even, not make a profit.

[mikeylikey]

I am reading the posts.

The military I remember was full of shouting. Threats and violence. Occasional deaths in training. Sorry, but that is what my memory has. I was enlisted.

In any event, we have been discussing the issue of segregated social situations which frankly are *weird* and unnatural to civilians. Segregated social situations which have been obsolete in modern American culture for decades. And since most CAP members are essentially civilians, this takes some explaining to understand how to fit in correctly when we are around the military.

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It is not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so. And simply because I do not have a career in the military does not disqualify me from being able to voice an opinion about how it might better be done.

The fact that this discussion generates so much internet heat is just the reason why we needed to ask about how to fit in. I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*, or being told that I should not *fraternize* with people of *lower rank* because doing so might generate a huge rip in the space-time continuum.

That is exactly why the first part of a new CAP members training should be on par with what Cadets-Junior Officers are expected to learn.  That is, what the military is, how it operates, who does what, customs and traditions etc.  The AFIADL Courses are just not up to snuff for what the organization needs.  We are recruiting some very fine people, we make them Officers, the AF allows them to be Officers, lets teach-learn-mentor on what being an Officer both in the military and CAP is all about.  

So, change initial CAP specific training.  Get Air University to write up a new program for CAP Officers.  

[star1151]

I can't imagine showing up at a bar/restaurant/dining hall and being told to leave because I was in the *wrong uniform*  - that I am not dressed up *enough*

Clearly you've never been to a nice restaurant.  I'm trying to imagine showing up at, say, the Drake Hotel, or the Mansion on Turtle Creek in shorts and a t-shirt.  Or even khakis and a t-shirt.  You'd be asked to leave and it's not all that uncommon and no restricted to very expensive locations.  I've rarely  been at a business dinner where there WASN'T a dress code and I've seen people turned away.  Private businesses such as bars and restaurants can require a dress code and are within their rights to turn people away.  Even Wal-Mart requires shirt and shoes.  Dressing decently at the O-Club is simply an extension of that.  I think what we're seeing here is classism, just not in the way most are used to seeing it.

Edited for weird typo.

[Ned]

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It is not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so.

John,

Of course you are free to question the military.

But it does seem a little odd to accept the hospitality of the O-Club as an invited guest while simultaneously denouncing their social policies as "totally bogus," "weird and unnatural," and while suggesting that those officers who choose to follow such policies "have some major problems."

It just seems a little rude to bitterly criticise your hosts while seeking an invitation to their club.  I suspect that is what folks are reacting to.

And it also seems a little odd that as a former service member you are professing such a lack of knowledge about the military club system.  I cannot imagine anyone who has served claiming to be as unfamiliar with the club system as you have suggested you are -- even if they were critical of the club system while in the service.

Thank you for your service, BTW.


Ned Lee
Retired Army Officer

[Nomex Maximus]

Clearly you've never been to a nice restaurant.  I'm trying to imagine showing up at, say, the Drake Hotel, or the Mansion at Turtle Creek in shorts and a t-shirt.  Or even khakis and a t-shirt.  You'd be asked to leave and it's not all that uncommon and no restricted to very expensive locations.  I've rarely  been at a business dinner where there WASN'T a dress code and I've seen people turned away.  Private businesses such as bars and restaurants can require a dress code and are within their rights to turn people away.  Even Wal-Mart requires shirt and shoes.  Dressing decently at the O-Club is simply an extension of that.  I think what we're seeing here is classism, just not in the way most are used to seeing it.

I have been to such restaurants; I can't imagine ever wanting to go again. I have better things to waste my money on than overpriced restaurants. I also don't do country clubs, not even the one I live next door to.

I am not arguing about dressing nicely. The point of this thread was to understand what would be needed to be done by CAP folk if they go to one of these places. I wasn't about to show up in NMUs (Nomex Maximus Uniform - sandals, BDU pants, hawaiian shirt, flight cap) and demand service. My angst is not with the dress code, it is with perpetuating outdated ideas of separation of personnel by rank. And again, I wasn't about to try and get into the enlisted club or the NCO club if I wasn't wanted there. I really just wnated to know where would be a good place to eat when I was away at this upcoming ES conference.

If I can find a way to fit in I will.

[Nomex Maximus]

It is not unreasonable for me to question military ways. It is not make me unpatriotic, anti-military, a communist or even a poor CAP member to do so.

. . .

But it does seem a little odd to accept the hospitality of the O-Club as an invited guest while simultaneously denouncing their social policies as "totally bogus," "weird and unnatural," and while suggesting that those officers who choose to follow such policies "have some major problems."

It just seems a little rude to bitterly criticise your hosts while seeking an invitation to their club.  I suspect that is what folks are reacting to.

. . .


Ned Lee
Retired Army Officer

I wasn't seeking an invitation. I haven't been invited. If invited, I will ask if I can fit in, if they say yes, then great. If they say no, then I will do it another time. I have no desire to cause a problem. I just want to eat.

[PA Guy]

I really just wnated to know where would be a good place to eat when I was away at this upcoming ES conference.

That's easy. Do what the vast majority of the personnel assigned to the base do. Go to the mess hall or go off base to the establishment of your choice. Most "O Clubs" are boring and overrated anyway.

[Hawk200]

The military I remember was full of shouting. Threats and violence. Occasional deaths in training. Sorry, but that is what my memory has. I was enlisted.

NM, sorry to be blunt, but that military that you were enlisted in doesn't exist anymore. Those old hazing practices, and the deaths related to people just being stupid do not happen with the frequency that they did, and they are certainly not accepted by an honorable chain of command. That military no longer exists. Every now and then, you'll see things on the news or magazines or the various services Times' newspapers on what happens when those things do occur. It's never pleasant.

I'm only about a year short of twenty when it comes to the service. I've never heard of the practices and actions you describe ever occurring. I've never known it to happen to anyone I knew, nor knew anyone with first-hand knowledge of it. I think most of the folks on this board that are still serving or retired in the last few years probably haven't heard of it either.

Yes, people still get dressed down for not paying attention. They get the same treatment for not doing the right thing. But they don't end up threatened with violence for that nowdays. A soldier might get "smoked", but it's actual PT, not torture. As for what it reinforces, that's a different debate entirely. They don't get hit, or beaten, or half drowned, or forced to do damage to themselves. The wall to wall counseling has been found to be rather ineffective. Many things have changed.

Now there are things that have not changed. Fraternization is still not beneficial to the good order of a military organization. Look up the original definition of "pogue" on Wikipedia. The exact concept may not apply now, but the loss in discipline in a unit from the perceptions is still there. If some enlisted see others getting favorable treatment, it affects their morale. And that is why the rules of fraternization still exist. Even if there is only appearance, it affects the entire unit. That is why that "old guard" thinking still exists. It has reason, and legitimate effect.

[SAR-EMT1]

Just wanted to say:
I am supposed to go to Scott tomorrow afternoon for my CLC.
However, while i did get a letter giving directions to the base and to the CAP building on base, it merely says to show my CAP membership card at the gate, and says nothing about anything else. Someone else mentioned an "MSA" ... Im guessing I didnt get one, as I have no idea what it is.

So I would ask: do I need to obtain something else other then my CAP ID and a good attitude to use the Club?
Thanks

[PA Guy]

MSA= Military Support Authorization.  It authorizes use of base facilities such as billeting, mess hall, BX for other than uniform items and O Club.  It there isn't an MSA I would avoid using any of the facilities.  Check with the project officer to determine if there is a MSA for this activity.

[AlphaSigOU]

Just remember the current mantra that's going through the RealAirForce® - 0-0-1-3

0 drinks if you are under 21

0 DUIs

1 alcoholic drink per hour

3 alcoholic drinks maximum per evening

I was over at the (in)famous Auger Inn at the Randolph AFB O-Club last weekend for the air show (I was part of the GA-8 CAP flight crew), and while there are mementos of the olden days of wild alcohol-filled debauchery (such as the crud table and the beer-powered ejection seat, among other things) the post-airshow cordial was pretty sedate. No one got schnockered, sloshed or out-and-out wasted, especially not with the Randolph Wing King in attendance and the very real possibility of Security Forces waiting outside the O-Club to nail DUIs.

[PHall]

and the very real possibility of Security Forces waiting outside the O-Club to nail DUIs.

That's no "possibility", that's a certainty. It's the "no mistakes" military these days.