C/Command Chief Master Sergeant

[MSG Mac]

 I just visited the TriWing (MD/DE/NATCAP) Encampment and they still persist in appointing a Cadet Command Chief for the Encampment. I asked the cadet if he knew it was not allowed, his response was that it was a tradition and besides that the Encampment Commander had approved it. 
How can they train the cadets, if the leadership cannot follow regs that have been in effect for several years and were explicitly reiterated in a gross violation two years ago?

[Cadetter]

One of my favorite CS articles, on the "tradition" topic... http://archive.cadetstuff.org/archives/000154.html

[lordmonar]

Appointing a cadet to the position of Encampment Command Chief is allowed.

Giving said cadet a special insignia is not allowed.

[a2capt]

Just like the Smokey hat that won't go away.. if they're actually pinning something different on.

[PHall]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

[lordmonar]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

+1

"My Commander Told Me To" IS a valid argument 90% of the time.

[MSG Mac]

Didn't jack him up. Asked if he knew it wasn't allowed, and got the answer that the Commander had authorized it.

[Eclipse]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

I seriously doubt the Wing CCs are even aware, much less care, and if they do, and approved it,
then there's your issue.

[MajorM]

Curious where you think the position is prohibited??  52-18 leaves organizational design to the Encampment Commander and DCP.  If they want a senior NCO position, there is no prohibition against it.

They can't make up a special insignia for it, but a title is a title.  Everything is a made up title at the end of the day.

So if you're going to jack up a cadet it's good to have the regulatory citation correct.

[MSG Mac]

Curious where you think the position is prohibited??  52-18 leaves organizational design to the Encampment Commander and DCP.  If they want a senior NCO position, there is no prohibition against it.

They can't make up a special insignia for it, but a title is a title.  Everything is a made up title at the end of the day.

So if you're going to jack up a cadet it's good to have the regulatory citation correct.

g. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in CAPVA 52-100.
CAPR 52-16, Chapter 5-2g

Asking a question of a cadet does not equate to "Jacking Up"

I don't care about the title-Object to the wear of the Command Chief chevrons w/star

[MajorM]

it is not a promotion or grade, it is a position.  First Sergeant is not a grade or promotion either, it is a position.

It is like saying being made a Flight Commander is a promotion. 

[Mitchell 1969]

Didn't jack him up. Asked if he knew it wasn't allowed, and got the answer that the Commander had authorized it.

I'm puzzled.

You said you "visited encampment" and questioned a staff cadet about his position, telling him that it was unauthorized. As a former encampment commander, my first reaction to that was to think "Challenging cadet staff? How rude!"

As a visitor, wouldn't it have been better to have addressed your concern through the chain of command? Or am I missing something?

[MSG Mac]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

+1

"My Commander Told Me To" IS a valid argument 90% of the time.

That argument worked so well at the Nuremburg trials.

[Chaplaindon]

Talk about hyperbole. MSG, are you seriously comparing this to the Holocaust? A child using an "arguably" unpermitted position title at a CAP encampment is analogous to the deliberate murder of millions?

Perhaps you'd best stay away from encampments. You'll be happier and CAP will be the better for it.

[Tim Medeiros]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

+1

"My Commander Told Me To" IS a valid argument 90% of the time.

That argument worked so well at the Nuremburg trials.

Hmm, 12 posts to Godwin's Law, not bad for CT.

[Alaric]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

+1

"My Commander Told Me To" IS a valid argument 90% of the time.

That argument worked so well at the Nuremburg trials.

Really comparing a CAP cadet to Nuremburg? Poor form sir, Poor form. Also truly offensive.

[lordmonar]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

+1

"My Commander Told Me To" IS a valid argument 90% of the time.

That argument worked so well at the Nuremburg trials.

So long as the order is "lawful" it is okay.   Lawful and against the regs are two different things.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

MSG Mac, why were you jacking up the cadet, it wasn't their decision.
This was a decision the Encampment Commander made and it was allowed to stand by the three Wing Commanders who sponsor this Encampment.
You need to set your sights a bit higher...

+1

"My Commander Told Me To" IS a valid argument 90% of the time.

That argument worked so well at the Nuremburg trials.

Really comparing a CAP cadet to Nuremburg? Poor form sir, Poor form. Also truly offensive.

And the comparison of the cadet to accused Nazi war criminals was made where?  The comparison was made to the defense many use of "I was just following orders" which was throughly trounced during the trails.
"I was just following orders" is not a legitimate defense.  In fact, we are obligated to refuse an improper/illegal order and if necessary bump it up the chain of command.  Of course if the entire command structure is corrupt this may not result in the desired outcome  (Pfc Jones...Report to the Gallows).

[MSG Mac]

No comparison to Nazi's, the Holocaust, was made or intended. The reply was to the comment that "I was just following Orders" which is widely known as the Nuremburg Defense is not a viable excuse. 

My point: 52-16 specifically states "Cadets will only wear the grade earned" and as shown in CAPVA 52-100"

C/Command Chief Master Sergeant Insignia is not displayed on the CAPVA-52-100

National Headquarters sent out a massive directive to all Wings three years ago that blasted the wear of C/Command Chief insignia and followed it up in two editions of 52-16.

I was told that this practice is a "Tradition" How can a deliberate violation of a regulation  be a tradition?

Lawful and regs are different only if the order is unsafe, immoral, or illegal on the face of it. None of these exceptions apply. 

[lordmonar]

Lawful and regs are different only if the order is unsafe, immoral, or illegal on the face of it. None of these exceptions apply.

To keep things in context......"Here cadet wear this insignia".....is a lawful order.  It violates regulations but it does not violate any laws.

"Here cadet I want you drive the CAP van 90 miles an hour" is an unlawful order.  It violates both the regulations and the law.

No one can order you to violate a law......but they can tell you to violate a regulation.    "why did you wear that insignia?....My commander told me to" is a valid argument.   It was a "lawful" order.

[Ned]

My point: 52-16 specifically states "Cadets will only wear the grade earned" and as shown in CAPVA 52-100"

C/Command Chief Master Sergeant Insignia is not displayed on the CAPVA-52-100

Sir, I'm still a little unclear on this.

Was the Command Chief wearing an improper insignia and/or hat at this year's encampment? 

Did you happen to get a picture, by any chance?

[MSG Mac]

Insignia only, no picture, though I'm sure it's evident on the web page.

[Private Investigator]

Talk about hyperbole. MSG, are you seriously comparing this to the Holocaust? A child using an "arguably" unpermitted position title at a CAP encampment is analogous to the deliberate murder of millions?

Perhaps you'd best stay away from encampments. You'll be happier and CAP will be the better for it.

Lot of great answers but best answer right here. 

[MajorM]

Nuremberg aside... Having a cadet wear some fandangled CCMSgt insignia is incorrect and against regs.  Having such a position with the title is acceptable.  It is the same as having an Adjutant, Superimtendent, or any other made up staff title.  If you "promote" them to a non-existent rank that is also not ok.  It would be the same as promoting a cadet to Cadet Brigadier General just so he can be the Cadet Commander or promoting a Major to Lt Col because you want your C/CC to be a Lt Col.

Personally.. Call the position Encampment First Sergeant or Superintendent and give it to the most qualified NCO regardless of rank.

[MSG Mac]

Talk about hyperbole. MSG, are you seriously comparing this to the Holocaust? A child using an "arguably" unpermitted position title at a CAP encampment is analogous to the deliberate murder of millions?

Perhaps you'd best stay away from encampments. You'll be happier and CAP will be the better for it.

Lot of great answers but best answer right here. 

Where is there any mention of the holocaust in my posts? I thought PI's were supposed to find the facts, not add on to a great misassumption by another poster.

[TexasCadet]

Talk about hyperbole. MSG, are you seriously comparing this to the Holocaust? A child using an "arguably" unpermitted position title at a CAP encampment is analogous to the deliberate murder of millions?

Perhaps you'd best stay away from encampments. You'll be happier and CAP will be the better for it.

Lot of great answers but best answer right here. 

Where is there any mention of the holocaust in my posts? I thought PI's were supposed to find the facts, not add on to a great misassumption by another poster.

At the Nuremberg trials, German prisoners were tried for their role in the Holocaust (when millions of innocent people were murdered) and other war crimes. Hence, by comparing what a cadet said to what a prisoner said at the Nuremberg trials, you compared a cadet's excuse to someone's excuse for the Holocaust.


Member 1: "Why are you a C/Command Chief Master Sergeant?"
Member 2: "My commander said I could be one."


Prosecutor: "Why did you authorize the murder of millions?"
German Prisoner: "Der Fuhrer said it vuz okay."


One is valid, one is not.

[Cadetter]

I think all he's saying is that "I was told to" is not [always] a great reason... using the Nuremberg trials as an example.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

it is not a promotion or grade, it is a position.  First Sergeant is not a grade or promotion either, it is a position.

My Army veteran dad told me "It's the First Sergeant who really runs the Company."

[MajorM]

Well that's probably true... Except when they're 14

[Storm Chaser]

it is not a promotion or grade, it is a position.  First Sergeant is not a grade or promotion either, it is a position.

My Army veteran dad told me "It's the First Sergeant who really runs the Company."

That may be true in the Army, but not so much in the Air Force.

In the Army, First Sergeant is a rank (E-8) and they outrank Master Sergeants (also E-8s). In the Air Force, First Sergeant is a position not a rank, even though it has a chevron insignia. MSgt (E-7) through CMSgt (E-9) can hold the position, although MSgt is the most common grade within a standard squadron.

First Sergeants report directly to the commander, but are not in the actual chain of command. They're responsible for morale, welfare and discipline of the enlisted members in a squadron and are advisers to the commander on issues regarding the enlisted force.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Having been in the ANG, I remember the distinction between an Army "Top" and an AF "First Shirt."

Thankfully, I had no run-ins with mine.

[Eclipse]

So long as the order is "lawful" it is okay.   Lawful and against the regs are two different things.

In CAP they are literally the exact same thing.

No one in CAP is allowed to direct another member to violate regulations at any time, for any reason.
And you can leave "what about an emergency" at the door, since this certainly doesn't rise to that level,
nor does anything in CAP 99.99999% of the time, and usually that .000001& that it does could have been
avoided with ORM or simple common sense.

My commander told me to" is a valid argument.   It was a "lawful" order.

No, it wasn't.

A - because CAP commanders do not issue "lawful orders" they issues "regulatory orders" or "directives" at best.
The concept of "lawful order" does not exist with a CAP parlance, since CAP commanders have no weight of law or sovereign commission.
someone disobeying the directive of a superior, risks, at most, CAP termination, and given the right circumstance, the
potential loss of CAP protection(s) in regards to financial liability, they would not, however, ever be incarcerated for the simple act
of disobeying.

B - It violates standing, simple regulations, so therefore should not be obeyed.

Now, with that said, would I expect a cadet, being told to do something they want to do that is is "cool"
by a superior to stand up and say "no"?  Of course not, but once so informed, the encampment CC
should knock it off, or be told to knock it off.

It'll be fun to see how many encampment and other activities stop wearing grade on their caps this summer as well.
since that has never been authorized, but is (or was) explicitly called out in the phantom 39-1 draft, dog bowling and
ranger rolling, too.

[Eclipse]

Based on the encampment's publicly available guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i74r5fb76fyalim/2014%20Pre-Encampment%20Guide.pdf


The position is just the First Shirt, why they need the affectation of "C/CCMsgt" is beyond me, but nothing wrong, really,
with the description of duties.

"9.5 Command Chief Master Sergeant- The Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCMSgt) is responsible
for ensuring that the NCOs of the Encampment are familiar with their duties and responsibilities. The
Command Chief reports to the C/CC, representing the interests of the staff cadet NCOs"

[Eclipse]

More troubling is the apparent lack of awareness of the prohibition of Firewatch or CQ:
(See Page 14 of the document above)


http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Encampment_Manual_June_2014_1F6A5D093CD05.pdf
Page 7 "Safety 2.5"
b. Cadet Charge of Quarters or Firewatch. Cadet CQ programs are ineffective as safety precautions, do
not impart meaningful learning, are potentially hazardous, and are therefore prohibited. Cadets will not serve as
sentries or safety monitors during the overnight hours. A senior member must bunk in close proximity to the
cadets (at least one senior per floor or wing is suggested) and be available to respond to any emergencies that
arise between lights-out and reveille.

I suppose it's possible that the instructions are for senior members acting in this capacity, but some of the language
appears more directed at cadets in this role than an adult.

[lordmonar]

So long as the order is "lawful" it is okay.   Lawful and against the regs are two different things.

In CAP they are literally the exact same thing.

No one in CAP is allowed to direct another member to violate regulations at any time, for any reason.

Not true in the USAF, not true in a civilian company, not true in CAP.

And you can leave "what about an emergency" at the door, since this certainly doesn't rise to that level,
nor does anything in CAP 99.99999% of the time, and usually that .000001& that it does could have been
avoided with ORM or simple common sense.

Speaking of hypothetical we do take things to where we don't normally operate....that's the purpose of hypothetical thought experiments.

You don't think so and under your command you will never violate the regs, nor alllow anyone to violate the regs, or tell someone to violate the regs.......good for you.  Other people in other command situations may think differently.

My commander told me to" is a valid argument.   It was a "lawful" order.

No, it wasn't.

What law did it violate?

A - because CAP commanders do not issue "lawful orders" they issues "regulatory orders" or "directives" at best.
The concept of "lawful order" does not exist with a CAP parlance, since CAP commanders have no weight of law or sovereign commission.
someone disobeying the directive of a superior, risks, at most, CAP termination, and given the right circumstance, the
potential loss of CAP protection(s) in regards to financial liability, they would not, however, ever be incarcerated for the simple act
of disobeying.

Cite please.   CAP leaders issue orders.   They are either legal orders or illegal orders.   

B - It violates standing, simple regulations, so therefore should not be obeyed.

Again.....wrong.   Following the military model of how to follow orders.....we follow orders that are lawful....i.e. an order that does not violate a law....not a regulation, an AFI, a policy, but a law.

Now the commander who issues said order may be taken to task for it by his leadership....but not the people who followed the order.   So long as it is legal.

Now, with that said, would I expect a cadet, being told to do something they want to do that is is "cool"
by a superior to stand up and say "no"?  Of course not, but once so informed, the encampment CC
should knock it off, or be told to knock it off.

Agree

It'll be fun to see how many encampment and other activities stop wearing grade on their caps this summer as well.
since that has never been authorized, but is (or was) explicitly called out in the phantom 39-1 draft, dog bowling and
ranger rolling, too.

One of the reasons why we need a NHQ team to visit each encampment to get an eye ball on what sort of BS is going on.

[Mitchell 1969]

Didn't jack him up. Asked if he knew it wasn't allowed, and got the answer that the Commander had authorized it.

I'm puzzled.

You said you "visited encampment" and questioned a staff cadet about his position, telling him that it was unauthorized. As a former encampment commander, my first reaction to that was to think "Challenging cadet staff? How rude!"

As a visitor, wouldn't it have been better to have addressed your concern through the chain of command? Or am I missing something?

Before this gets lost, I'd like to say that I'd really appreciate an answer. I simply can't envision anyone short of one of the involved Wing Commanders, Region Commander, National Commander or, possibly, an assigned IG from one of those HQ's being empowered to "visit" encampment, skip several layers of command and start questioning cadet staff, followed by informing them of perceived errors.

[abdsp51]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with a Cadet Command CMSgt.  The AF uses them across the board at many levels.  Is the issue the title or the insignia worn?  Why couldn't we theoretically create the position and insignia for things such as encampment or other major activities?

[Garibaldi]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with a Cadet Command CMSgt.  The AF uses them across the board at many levels.  Is the issue the title or the insignia worn?  Why couldn't we theoretically create the position and insignia for things such as encampment or other major activities?

The issue is twofold:

1. The possibility that an illegal grade insignia was issued, and

2. The complicity of 3 wing commanders and an encampment commander if the insignia was issued and worn contrary to regs plainly stating that no such insignia be issued.

The position is moot. They could appoint an Imperial Grand Llama Super Potentate Grand Admiral Kangaroo Weasel Niblick Whoops, Where's My Thribble, as long as no illegal grade was issued.

[abdsp51]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with a Cadet Command CMSgt.  The AF uses them across the board at many levels.  Is the issue the title or the insignia worn?  Why couldn't we theoretically create the position and insignia for things such as encampment or other major activities?

The issue is twofold:

1. The possibility that an illegal grade insignia was issued, and

2. The complicity of 3 wing commanders and an encampment commander if the insignia was issued and worn contrary to regs plainly stating that no such insignia be issued.

The position is moot. They could appoint an Imperial Grand Llama Super Potentate Grand Admiral Kangaroo Weasel Niblick Whoops, Where's My Thribble, as long as no illegal grade was issued.

If unauthorized insignia was used then something should be done.  But why not create it for such a purpose?

[SarDragon]

Help me out here. Where is the specific reference that someone was actually wearing improper insignia?

[abdsp51]

Help me out here. Where is the specific reference that someone was actually wearing improper insignia?

Second post from the top.

[SarDragon]

Help me out here. Where is the specific reference that someone was actually wearing improper insignia?

Second post from the top.

Hmmm....

One of my favorite CS articles, on the "tradition" topic... http://archive.cadetstuff.org/archives/000154.html

Neither the post nor the linked article mention this.

Appointing a cadet to the position of Encampment Command Chief is allowed.

Giving said cadet a special insignia is not allowed.

This is merely conjecture, or perhaps a paraphrasing of the reg. Where's the specific instance that special insignia were worn?

[a2capt]

Asked here:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19011.msg348446#msg348446

.. answered in the next post.

[lordmonar]

If unauthorized insignia was used then something should be done.  But why not create it for such a purpose?

Because a) there is no need.  b) If you are awarding a discretionary/temporary grade insignia to the Command Cheif......why not make all the flight commanders 1st Lts.....even the ones who are MSgts?   And all the Squadron commanders Majors and the C/CC a full Col?

Like I said I got no problem with appointing a C/CMSgt to the top NCO position.....and call it what ever you want.....just don't put no stars on their insignia.

[Archer]

No one in CAP is allowed to direct another member to violate regulations at any time, for any reason.

>Is 15 degrees(f)
>Blues night
>My cadets only have the minimum basic service uniform(short sleeve)
>"FFFFFF[...]"
>"Sorry, but I can't direct you direct you to wear a jacket that isn't in 39-1, but it would also be negligent for you to be here without appropriate attire; go home until summer. Same goes for the ten of you without jackets. Sorry you're poor."

[Walkman]

I had an interesting discussion RE: "just following orders" last month in CharDev. The topic centered around the whole idea of "JFO". All of my cadet officers were sitting in the back row and each of them said they would have no problem telling a SM or higher ranking cadet "no" to an order they thought would be hazing/dangerous and/or in clear violation of regs. Through the discussion it came out the there was a clear split in the room on the subject in that the cadet officers were the only ones that felt like they could actually (justifiably) refuse an order or stand up to someone of higher rank. Everyone else, including the older cadets felt like they would just follow orders even if they felt something was wrong.

Just something to think about...

[THRAWN]

Help me out here. Where is the specific reference that someone was actually wearing improper insignia?

Second post from the top.

Hmmm....

One of my favorite CS articles, on the "tradition" topic... http://archive.cadetstuff.org/archives/000154.html

Neither the post nor the linked article mention this.

Appointing a cadet to the position of Encampment Command Chief is allowed.

Giving said cadet a special insignia is not allowed.

This is merely conjecture, or perhaps a paraphrasing of the reg. Where's the specific instance that special insignia were worn?

I thought that I was the only one who missed it, but it is there. I've got to agree with Lordmonar on this one. Sure give them the title, but don't go screwing around with insignia. I'd love to see the job descrition for this as well.

[Eclipse]

Page 2 of this thread.

[THRAWN]

Page 2 of this thread.

Thanks. I kind of glazed over after the war crimes discussion began...

[TexasCadet]

If people really want, they can petition NHQ to make a "C/CCMSgt" insignia. Pigs would fly before it would happen, but there is nothing stopping them from making a petition.

[THRAWN]

If people really want, they can petition NHQ to make a "C/CCMSgt" insignia. Pigs would fly before it would happen, but there is nothing stopping them from making a petition.

To what ends? What would be the purpose?

[TexasCadet]

The purpose would be when NHQ rejects their idea, maybe the people will finally give up the idea of a different insignia.

[Eclipse]

The purpose would be when NHQ rejects their idea, maybe the people will finally give up the idea of a different insignia.

They already have, in fact pretty vehemently, and for the better part of two decades.

[TexasCadet]

Then why do people still try to have insignia that is against regulation? If an encampment has an insignia that is not approved, what kind of example are they setting for all the cadets they are supposed to be training?

[Eclipse]

Then why do people still try to have insignia that is against regulation? If an encampment has an insignia that is not approved, what kind of example are they setting for all the cadets they are supposed to be training?

Now, you're getting it - that's why so many of us get "bunched" - it's one thing when Podunk Composite, disconnected from
leadership makes poor choices, or does things "off the books", but encampments are supposed to be as close to "textbook CAP"
as you can get, and the examples set taken back to the Podunk Squadrons to "set things right" (not that it usually works).

Encampment Commanders should endeavor to "stay on book" - speaking from direct experience, there's always somebody saying
"...wouldn't it be cool if..." and all you need to do is say "yes, but it's not allowed" and move on, instead we have little "leaks"
from the regs all over the place, and people saying "what's the big deal"...

[TexasCadet]

Is there an official definition for what a "C/CCMSgt" does?

[lordmonar]

Is there an official definition for what a "C/CCMSgt" does?

Evidently there is one for this encampment....it is in one of the posts in this thread.

Basicly it is to assist the C/CC and ride herd on the lower level NCO's.

[TexasCadet]

Is there an official definition for what a "C/CCMSgt" does?

Evidently there is one for this encampment....it is in one of the posts in this thread.

Basicly it is to assist the C/CC and ride herd on the lower level NCO's.

I mean, has NHQ put out an official definition? Also, what does "ride herd" mean?

[lordmonar]

A) Why do we need to have NHQ weigh in on this at all?
B) They use official language....but it boils down to working with the subordinate NCO's doing their jobs.

[lordmonar]

Here is the repost.

Based on the encampment's publicly available guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i74r5fb76fyalim/2014%20Pre-Encampment%20Guide.pdf


The position is just the First Shirt, why they need the affectation of "C/CCMsgt" is beyond me, but nothing wrong, really,
with the description of duties.

"9.5 Command Chief Master Sergeant- The Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCMSgt) is responsible
for ensuring that the NCOs of the Encampment are familiar with their duties and responsibilities. The
Command Chief reports to the C/CC, representing the interests of the staff cadet NCOs"

[Eclipse]

I mean, has NHQ put out an official definition? Also, what does "ride herd" mean?

Care and feeding, pay attention to, etc., etc.

Honestly?  If presupposes the military model that doesn't really exist in CAP namely that NCOs take care
of the enlisted and then report up to higher NCOs for day-to-day administrivia, training, etc., while
the officers concentrate on larger-scale management issues.

Most units try, but few units succeed in really working this properly, a lot don't even have the numbers to make it
work if they knew how, and cadets tend to work through the grade structure disconnected from relevent staff positions,
especially in smaller units.

[TexasCadet]

Here is the repost.

Based on the encampment's publicly available guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i74r5fb76fyalim/2014%20Pre-Encampment%20Guide.pdf


The position is just the First Shirt, why they need the affectation of "C/CCMsgt" is beyond me, but nothing wrong, really,
with the description of duties.

"9.5 Command Chief Master Sergeant- The Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCMSgt) is responsible
for ensuring that the NCOs of the Encampment are familiar with their duties and responsibilities. The
Command Chief reports to the C/CC, representing the interests of the staff cadet NCOs"

Sorry. I missed that part.

I mean, has NHQ put out an official definition? Also, what does "ride herd" mean?

Care and feeding, pay attention to, etc., etc.

Honestly?  If presupposes the military model that doesn't really exist in CAP namely that NCOs take care
of the enlisted and then report up to higher NCOs for day-to-day administrivia, training, etc., while
the officers concentrate on larger-scale management issues.

Most units try, but few units succeed in really working this properly, a lot don't even have the numbers to make it
work if they knew how, and cadets tend to work through the grade structure disconnected from relevent staff positions,
especially in smaller units.

Looking at this post and the definition above, why does a position have to be created for something commanders are supposed to be doing already?

[Storm Chaser]

Looking at this post and the definition above, why does a position have to be created for something commanders are supposed to be doing already?

This is a position that makes sense in the Air Force, but not so much in CAP. I suspect that it's been used at encampments to mimimic the function in the Air Force, but you're right; that function can be handled by the cadet commander and other cadet staff.

In the Air Force, all leadership positions at the wing and higher headquarters (major commands, numbered air forces, etc.) are held by senior officers (colonels and generals) and the command chief master sergeant position allows the opportunity for senior enlisted to be represented in those structures, advise the commanders on issues regarding enlisted members and ensure the welfare and readiness of the enlisted force.

Remember, unlike in the CAP where cadet officers are airmen and NCOs first, the vast majority of Air Force officers, including commanders, have never been enlisted and may not be aware of enlisted needs and issues as well as other SNCOs. In CAP, the CAC servers a similar function regarding the Cadet Corps.

[lordmonar]

SNCO's do more then that....and they are more important to operations and plans then just representing the enlisted corps.

As printed.....there is nothing wrong with the position at encampment......no really....an assistant to the commander with a direct dotted line to the NCO's of the encampment staff.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

Of course......if you really think that it can be done by the commander and staff.....then why do we have any NCOs on staff at all?

Which by the way I advocate......IIWG I would make Mitchell a pre-req for Encampment Staff.

YMMV.

[TexasCadet]

Based on the encampment's publicly available guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i74r5fb76fyalim/2014%20Pre-Encampment%20Guide.pdf


The position is just the First Shirt, why they need the affectation of "C/CCMsgt" is beyond me, but nothing wrong, really,
with the description of duties.

"9.5 Command Chief Master Sergeant- The Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCMSgt) is responsible
for ensuring that the NCOs of the Encampment are familiar with their duties and responsibilities. The
Command Chief reports to the C/CC, representing the interests of the staff cadet NCOs"

I think we should have cadet NCOs on staff, not just officers. The definition says that the C/CCMSgt is supposed to ensure cadet NCOs are familiar with their duties. From my understanding, the NCOs' next-up in the chain of command (flight commander, OIC, NCOIC etc.) is supposed to tell the NCOs their responsibilities and duties. What I meant was why have a redundant position?

[Eclipse]

Of course......if you really think that it can be done by the commander and staff.....then why do we have any NCOs on staff at all?

Affectation and affinity with the military model.  CAP cadets rarely do it long enough or at the scale to get it right.

Which by the way I advocate......IIWG I would make Mitchell a pre-req for Encampment Staff.

As would I, Flt CC and Asst flt CC is all most Flights need, cadet officers who have BTDT, but unfortunately these days
many encampments and activities couldn't fully staff without cadets in the NCO grades.  It's not unusual for cadet NCOs to be
flight CC's or even higher, and we all know of the encampments that have had 1st Lts as Cadet CC.

It all comes back to retention - more people = larger scope = real opportunities for leadership at the appropriate scale.

[Panache]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

[Storm Chaser]

SNCO's do more then that....and they are more important to operations and plans then just representing the enlisted corps.

My post wasn't describing the role of SNCOs, but of Command Chief Master Sergeants, albeit in a very broad, generic sense.

The CCM [Command Chief Master Sergeant] advises, carries out and monitors the commander's and organizational policies, programs and standards applicable to the assigned enlisted force. CCMs are the commander's key enlisted advocate and advisor on readiness, training, professional development, utilization of the force, operations tempo, standards, conduct and quality of life. The CCM gives advice and initiates recommendations to the commander and staff in matters pertaining to all assigned enlisted personnel...

Of course, Command Chief Master Sergeants do much more than that, but I think that summarizes their role and responsibilities well.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having a Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant position at encampment, as long as there's no special insignia that comes with it. That said, the question is whether it's a necessary position or not. I'm not sure that it is.

[MajorM]

Of course is there great harm even if it's not? It's not like it's costing anything, the kid is paying to be there.  If it gives a cadet senior NCO the chance to work closely with some top-notch Phase IV cadets, great.  Yes there is an upper bound to the number of staff you want lest the ratios get out of whack.  But adding that position versus another assistant PAO... Well one probably teaches more leadership than the other.

[Private Investigator]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

SIGH ... 

[ALH]

That said, the question is whether it's a necessary position or not. I'm not sure that it is.

And that decision should (in my opinion) be one of the many that the Cadet Commander, with thorough guidance from the senior mentors, makes early on, vice it being done because "That's the way its always been done!" (The seven worst words in CAP).

[Johnny Yuma]

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people kill me.

Command Chief Master Sergeant is a reference to grade, not position. Command Chief Master Sergeants hold the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser. Change the concept of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant rank to the staff position of Chief Cadet Adviser. Put the most senior C/CMSgt at the encampment in the job and call it good.

[Garibaldi]

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people kill me.

Command Chief Master Sergeant is a reference to grade, not position. Command Chief Master Sergeants hold the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser. Change the concept of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant rank to the staff position of Chief Cadet Adviser. Put the most senior C/CMSgt at the encampment in the job and call it good.

And you just refuted your own argument. There is no grade of Command Chief on the cadet side. It is a position.

[SARDOC]

If people really want, they can petition NHQ to make a "C/CCMSgt" insignia. Pigs would fly before it would happen, but there is nothing stopping them from making a petition.

To what ends? What would be the purpose?

What if they made it for Squadrons of over 100 Cadets...where it might actually be feasible to have multiple First Sergeants.  Like one of the units that are hosted by a school.  I know there aren't very many out there.  In Theory they exist.  It's about reasonable Span of Control.

On the Other hand, If a Cadet is Senior enough and had the leadership to perform at this level he should be taking his Mitchell and promoting in about two months.  It would be a very transient position...so why bother?

[Storm Chaser]

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people kill me.

Command Chief Master Sergeant is a reference to grade, not position. Command Chief Master Sergeants hold the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser. Change the concept of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant rank to the staff position of Chief Cadet Adviser. Put the most senior C/CMSgt at the encampment in the job and call it good.

In the Air Force, Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCM) IS a position, not a rank. It's the equivalent of what used to be called Senior Enlisted Advisor. The name was changed and the star added to the chevron to bring it more in line with similar positions in other services.

If people really want, they can petition NHQ to make a "C/CCMSgt" insignia. Pigs would fly before it would happen, but there is nothing stopping them from making a petition.

To what ends? What would be the purpose?

What if they made it for Squadrons of over 100 Cadets...where it might actually be feasible to have multiple First Sergeants.  Like one of the units that are hosted by a school.  I know there aren't very many out there.  In Theory they exist.  It's about reasonable Span of Control.

On the Other hand, If a Cadet is Senior enough and had the leadership to perform at this level he should be taking his Mitchell and promoting in about two months.  It would be a very transient position...so why bother?

This position is not appropriate for a squadron, even a large one. We're so used to small squadrons with one or two flights, that in the very few instances of those that have enough cadets to fill four or five flights, some may think you need more than one first sergeant. That's like saying you need more than one squadron cadet commander. This position is NOT needed at the squadron, even at larger than average ones.

While I'm not convinced of the need of the position, I can see it working at a wing level activity such as encampment. There you have one first sergeant per squadron, so you could have a CCM for the wing (i.e. encampment). Even then, I don't think a special grade insignia (which is currently NOT approved) can be justified.

[Pulsar]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

SIGH ... 

yeah
I thought I saw an interesting C/CMSgt set of pins...they had a star where there is usually a diamond.

[Garibaldi]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

SIGH ... 

yeah
I thought I saw an interesting C/CMSgt set of pins...they had a star where there is usually a diamond.

INCONCEIVABLE!

[Panache]

C/1st Lt Neutron Star
Cadet Communications Officer

Did you get promoted recently?

Congrats.

[Pulsar]

C/1st Lt Neutron Star
Cadet Communications Officer

Did you get promoted recently?

Congrats.

Ya!
thank you