Hello and a question...

[Fortunateson]

Hello everyone,

My name is Robert and I'm considering volunteering in CAP as a Senior Member.  I have been lurking around the boards for a few weeks, getting the lay of the land.  I have a question and I apologize if it's been asked before or perhaps touches on a nerve.

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Thanks

[PHall]

You're not wrong.

[Fortunateson]

You're not wrong.

Considering how much it is used, that's sad then PHall...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Typically its used by the fat and fuzzies. Its our black humor. Never heard it at a meeting.

[PHall]

Typically its used by the fat and fuzzies. Its our black humor. Never heard it at a meeting.

About the only place I've seen the term used is on the Internet.

[Fortunateson]

I understand what you saying USAfaux2004, but one post in particular, in the "Uniform" thread used it numerous times, and it seemed they were talking about others, not themselves...

I understand that not everyone is in ideal shape and people have health issues and all that...  I just wonder if this situation makes their service any less valuable or desirable?

[lordmonar]

When I say it it is not intended to be disrespectful just an easy tag to identify those who cannon wear USAF uniforms due to weight or grooming issues

[Fortunateson]

When I say it it is not intended to be disrespectful just an easy tag to identify those who cannon wear USAF uniforms due to weight or grooming issues

I understand Lordmonar, Like I said, I'm new around here, just how it appeared to me...

[Pulsar]

 
...Captalk is NOT the place to be introduced to CAP...

[Fortunateson]

...Captalk is NOT the place to be introduced to CAP...

I understand Pulsar, but people will look, I mean as I type this right now, there are 40 guest users looking at the forums right now...

[LSThiker]

there are 40 guest users looking at the forums right now...

Guest users can be people that have usernames but simply do not login.  I usually frequent the forums without logging into it.

[Fortunateson]

there are 40 guest users looking at the forums right now...

Guest users can be people that have usernames but simply do not login.  I usually frequent the forums without logging into it.

Good point LSThiker, Thanks...

[Panache]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

[Fortunateson]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

As I stated earlier, If that's true, then that's sad...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

Unfortunately so.

There is an unspoken division based on who can wear the USAF uniform and who cannot.  Those who cannot are generally out of height/weight/grooming standards, meaning they have to wear the alternative "corporate" uniform, which has no connection to the USAF.

I try to never use the term "fat and fuzzies."  I have used it in the past but I try hard not to use it now because it seems to me to be too pejorative.

[AirDX]

In my experience (8 years of CAP), I have never heard that phrase outside of CAPTalk.

I have not experienced any division between those able to wear USAF-style uniforms and those not.

90% of what you read here is a tempest in the CAPTalk teapot - entertaining but not always reflective of reality.

[JacobAnn]

It is a new one on me.  I've been lurking for a while and this is the first I've heard that term.  Next time I see it I'll know.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Must not frequent the uniform board. The only place it comes up.

[DoubleSecret]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

Unfortunately so.

There is an unspoken division based on who can wear the USAF uniform and who cannot.  Those who cannot are generally out of height/weight/grooming standards, meaning they have to wear the alternative "corporate" uniform, which has no connection to the USAF.

I try to never use the term "fat and fuzzies."  I have used it in the past but I try hard not to use it now because it seems to me to be too pejorative.

I refuse to do it.  I also refuse to wear blues until I'm fully compliant.  I've seen plenty of senior members who are visibly overweight and who stuff themselves into blues with impunity.  One day a button's going to come flying off and put an eye out.  But they're connected with the Powers That Be, so there's nothing to be gained from tilting at that particular windmill.  "Excuse me, Colonel, I couldn't help noticing that service dress jacket.  Where did you get a size 62-R?"

[Fortunateson]

I appreciate all the responses, I guess it kind of struck a nerve with me as I would be in that category (for now anyway), and I wasn't sure I wanted to associate myself with an organization that this was a common occurrence in.  For the record, I am no stranger to CAP, although it was 25 years ago.  To give you some background, I completed 4.5 years of AFJROTC in high school, Served 4 years in the Navy as an E-4, and have worked for state and local governments most of my adult life.  I am also a current member of my city's CERT program.  So I don't want folks to think I'm coming in here stirring up trouble.  I'm pretty much a straight shooter and call it like I see it...

[Chappie]

there are 40 guest users looking at the forums right now...

Guest users can be people that have usernames but simply do not login.  I usually frequent the forums without logging into it.

Good point LSThiker, Thanks...

I will look at CapTalk as a guest and preview the postings.  If there is something I want to contribute my .002 then I will login -- but content at times just to be an "innocent bystander" 

[Chappie]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

Unfortunately so.

There is an unspoken division based on who can wear the USAF uniform and who cannot.  Those who cannot are generally out of height/weight/grooming standards, meaning they have to wear the alternative "corporate" uniform, which has no connection to the USAF.

I try to never use the term "fat and fuzzies."  I have used it in the past but I try hard not to use it now because it seems to me to be too pejorative.

I refuse to do it.  I also refuse to wear blues until I'm fully compliant.  I've seen plenty of senior members who are visibly overweight and who stuff themselves into blues with impunity.  One day a button's going to come flying off and put an eye out.   But they're connected with the Powers That Be, so there's nothing to be gained from tilting at that particular windmill.  "Excuse me, Colonel, I couldn't help noticing that service dress jacket.  Where did you get a size 62-R?"

I see a safety briefing in the works 

[Eclipse]

Where did you get a size 62-R?"

Heh - yes, there seems to be a perception that as long as you can find a jacket that "fits", or can get 2-3 sewn together then it's "OK". 

As to the "fat and fuzzies" comment, I wouldn't get to worked up about it, I don't think I've ever heard that in any context but here,
and I don't think most people here use it in a specifically derogatory way.

In comment to the "guests", there's a lot of people who have been banned or suspended that still lurk as well.

I think you will find that the average member at the average squadron gives a lot of the issues we beat to death here
little thought, nor do they impact day-to-day involvement very much.  That doesn't make them unimportant or necessarily
trivial, but a lot of what is debated here is strategic macro-scale stuff that doesn't even get filtered to the unit level,
or regulatory minutia that needs to get fixed, but only comes up at the unit level when there's a conflict of interpretation.

If you participate on an extra-unit scale, you'll see the issues we beat up here coming up a lot more then the average
unit-only participant.

Thousands of our members, both cadet and senior, have never interacted with the military or other outside agencies in
an official capacity, never been on a real mission, let alone been deployed out of state, never been to an encampment or
NCSA, served in anything but a unit level position, and far too many join and quit never seeing a CAP plane in person.
That's sad and frankly should be considered unacceptable, but it's the reality of CAP today, remove the above from a person's
involvement, and day-to-day unit ops are pretty straightforward. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

Unfortunately so.

There is an unspoken division based on who can wear the USAF uniform and who cannot.  Those who cannot are generally out of height/weight/grooming standards, meaning they have to wear the alternative "corporate" uniform, which has no connection to the USAF.

I try to never use the term "fat and fuzzies."  I have used it in the past but I try hard not to use it now because it seems to me to be too pejorative.

I refuse to do it.  I also refuse to wear blues until I'm fully compliant.  I've seen plenty of senior members who are visibly overweight and who stuff themselves into blues with impunity.  One day a button's going to come flying off and put an eye out.  But they're connected with the Powers That Be, so there's nothing to be gained from tilting at that particular windmill.  "Excuse me, Colonel, I couldn't help noticing that service dress jacket.  Where did you get a size 62-R?"

They don't have to be "Higher up". Just people who don't want to have "hard" talks in command, or them feeling that the person in question will get their feelings hurt and leave.

[Eclipse]

"Don't want them to leave..."

What value is there in someone who willfully disobeys CAP's most basic expectations?

There's the door...

[Майор Хаткевич]

"Don't want them to leave..."

What value is there in someone who willfully disobeys CAP's most basic expectations?

There's the door...

We both know that's not the reality on the ground.


"Well, Captain Bagodonuts is an MP, and we're behind wing quotas, but he'll leave if we don't let him wear the flight suit and service dress, because it MATTERS TO HIM. It's no big deal really, I'd rather keep the guy flying".


"Major Diettekohk may seem round, but he's our AE officer, and no one else wants the job, so I think we'll just let it slide. Maybe I'll mention it...maybe not."


"Lt Formrercadet is a bit on the heavy side, but no one else wanted the Deputy Commander of Cadets job, and he at least had some experience when he was a cadet in 1968, so we'll just ignore the fact that he's sixty pounds too large for that XXL Size BDU blouse."


In the mean time, there's probably someone else, in that unit, that group, wing, joint activity, etc, who does just as much hard work, but follows the simple uniform rules. It may be slowly chipping away at them, but hey, at least those three outstanding gentlemen get to feel special. Guess we don't cover "Teamwork" much in this organization. Forget the core values, most SMs probably don't even know how many we have.

[Eclipse]

"Don't want them to leave..."

What value is there in someone who willfully disobeys CAP's most basic expectations?

There's the door...

We both know that's not the reality on the ground.


"Well, Captain Bagodonuts is an MP, and we're behind wing quotas, but he'll leave if we don't let him wear the flight suit and service dress, because it MATTERS TO HIM. It's no big deal really, I'd rather keep the guy flying".


"Major Diettekohk may seem round, but he's our AE officer, and no one else wants the job, so I think we'll just let it slide. Maybe I'll mention it...maybe not."


"Lt Formrercadet is a bit on the heavy side, but no one else wanted the Deputy Commander of Cadets job, and he at least had some experience when he was a cadet in 1968, so we'll just ignore the fact that he's sixty pounds too large for that XXL Size BDU blouse."


In the mean time, there's probably someone else, in that unit, that group, wing, joint activity, etc, who does just as much hard work, but follows the simple uniform rules. It may be slowly chipping away at them, but hey, at least those three outstanding gentlemen get to feel special. Guess we don't cover "Teamwork" much in this organization. Forget the core values, most SMs probably don't even know how many we have.

Agreed.

[Garibaldi]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

Unfortunately so.

There is an unspoken division based on who can wear the USAF uniform and who cannot.  Those who cannot are generally out of height/weight/grooming standards, meaning they have to wear the alternative "corporate" uniform, which has no connection to the USAF.

I try to never use the term "fat and fuzzies."  I have used it in the past but I try hard not to use it now because it seems to me to be too pejorative.

I refuse to do it.  I also refuse to wear blues until I'm fully compliant.  I've seen plenty of senior members who are visibly overweight and who stuff themselves into blues with impunity.  One day a button's going to come flying off and put an eye out.  But they're connected with the Powers That Be, so there's nothing to be gained from tilting at that particular windmill.  "Excuse me, Colonel, I couldn't help noticing that service dress jacket.  Where did you get a size 62-R?"

HA! Reminds me of that line from Smokey and the Bandit:

Bandit: "I love your suits. It must be a b***h to find a 68 extra fat. And a 12 dwarf."

[THRAWN]

Why are there so many references to "Fat and Fuzzies"  throughout the forums?  I know what it represents, but to me, sounds a little disrespectful. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Nah, you're pretty much spot-on.

Unfortunately so.

There is an unspoken division based on who can wear the USAF uniform and who cannot.  Those who cannot are generally out of height/weight/grooming standards, meaning they have to wear the alternative "corporate" uniform, which has no connection to the USAF.

I try to never use the term "fat and fuzzies."  I have used it in the past but I try hard not to use it now because it seems to me to be too pejorative.

I refuse to do it.  I also refuse to wear blues until I'm fully compliant.  I've seen plenty of senior members who are visibly overweight and who stuff themselves into blues with impunity.  One day a button's going to come flying off and put an eye out.  But they're connected with the Powers That Be, so there's nothing to be gained from tilting at that particular windmill.  "Excuse me, Colonel, I couldn't help noticing that service dress jacket.  Where did you get a size 62-R?"

HA! Reminds me of that line from Smokey and the Bandit:

Bandit: "I love your suits. It must be a b***h to find a 68 extra fat. And a 12 dwarf."

^^^HY-larious....glad I'm not the only one that thought that....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Heh - yes, there seems to be a perception that as long as you can find a jacket that "fits", or can get 2-3 sewn together then it's "OK". 

I wonder, then, why those sizes are manufactured.

I have seen them in MCSS.

[Garibaldi]

And on this note...

Everyone knows that I am pretty passionate about how the uniform looks. I am a self-professed uniform naz...er, nut case. I had to learn as a cadet to sew on my own patches because, quite frankly, my mother did her best but did it all wrong, and my step mother refused. So, I had to learn.

So, fast forward about 30 years, and while I have no problem whatsoever telling the cadet staff to correct the myriad uniform problems I see (yes, I pass them down through the chain), I have an issue telling an adult that there is too much blue showing on the grade insignia, or the patch is on the wrong pocket, or, yes, even the wrong shirt with the wrong pants. I have actually told a few seniors that their uniforms are incorrect, and have been met with either a blank stare, defiance, "Yeah, I know, but I haven't had a chance to correct it", or "It's a g-d **** volunteer organization, what the f*** difference does it make?"

I find that uniform regulations are extremely difficult to enforce in adults in a volunteer organization. If they don't like being told HOW to wear the uniform, WHERE they can and cannot wear it, and which ones they can or can't wear depending on their situation or H/W and grooming, then as I have said on numerous occasions, they have a few options:

1. Fix their H/W (if they can) and grooming, suck it up and follow the regs, or
2. Wear the uniform combo they are authorized to wear, or
3. Find another organization that doesn't have these "namby-pamby" rules about uniforms.

It is that simple. I'd hate to think that there are people who would leave because of something as pedantic as not wanting to follow the rules, but as someone mentioned previously, we do have rules just like any other organization. Failure to follow them HAS to have some sort of consequences, right? I'm not talking about folks who have a valid medical reason for not being able to do so.

But is the answer chasing valued people away because they can't or won't follow 39-1, or allowing them to fade away? "Compliance with this directive is MANDATORY" doesn't carry enough weight if there isn't some form of discipline carried out for non-compliance. The unit CC can install as many scales as he or she wants, but if the member isn't stepping on them, then how do you enforce it?

How do you enforce it?

[Devil Doc]

Awesome!! Another Former Navy Sailor!!

Think of CAPTalk as the ScuttleButt, it is where everything is said in a lax environment that may/ or may not be true. I take everything on here with a grain of salt now. You will learn a few things about CAPTalk:

1. Uniforms
2. Policies
3. Uniforms

[Chappie]

<snip>
How do you enforce it?

During my tenure as a Region Chaplain...as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, a Protocol Officer was appointed for the event.  Weeks prior the Uniform Manual was sent in addition to the Participants Handbook.   Those attending were notified weeks in advance of what uniforms were to be worn during the event.   Not only were they notified, but also advised that the first morning of the event an inspection would be conducted.   The Protocol Officer presented a briefing (which included uniform wear) the evening before the first full day of classes and would be the inspecting officer.  If they did not meet the standards for wearing the USAF-Style uniform/service dress, they would need to return to their room and change into the gray-whites/blazer combo (polo/grays were not approved for the CCRSC).  It was either "fish or cut bait".   The publications made it clear that even if they wore the uniform at the squadron meetings -- and were not meeting the regs on h/w or grooming -- that would not be a "nod, nod, wink, wink" at CCRSC.  The inspection process worked well for us.   And there is also the adhering to Core Values "look test" -- "Do I look professional in my appearance?"  That involves personal accountability.     On a side note, I wore both the USAF-Style and gray-whites throughout the event.   

[Eclipse]

The unit CC can install as many scales as he or she wants, but if the member isn't stepping on them, then how do you enforce it?

How do you enforce it?

You simply "do".

The choice is "step on the scale or get a different uniform".  If they don't comply, you start
with verbal reminders, move to Letters Of Reprimand, and eventually termination is on the table.

Odds are anyone ignoring an LOR will quit or move somewhere else long before a 2B is necessary, but
as long as the CC is being fair, consistent, and following the regs, it's not really that hard.

The same goes for the "too much blue".  Everyone makes mistakes, and to those not ensconced in the
regs, yes, they can be a little confusing, but there's a difference between "not knowing" and
"refusing to adjust".  The former is correctable, the latter is unacceptable.

The lack of intestinal fortitude in this regard is one of the reasons why members lose respect for their
leaders.  It's supposed to be "do as I say >and< do" not " do as I say, not as I do".

[Fortunateson]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.  I understand that there are regs for proper wear of the service dress, and I agree that those regs should be followed.   I guess to be right to the point, as innocent as it may seem to some, I just think it's a little harsh to refer to folks willing to put in their time and effort to an organization, regardless of their physical appearance shouldn't be refereed to by a term that seems derogatory...

Just my opinion...

[jeders]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.

CAPTalk rule #16 All non-uniform related threads will eventually turn into a uniform thread.

[Chappie]

If you do a simple search of the terms you are concerned about in this forum...you will find that the context is never in a derogatory/demeaning manner...simply a way to describe ourselves/members of CAP who cannot wear the uniform due to the h/w requirement or by the choice to wear a beard. 

[Chappie]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.

CAPTalk rule #16 All non-uniform related threads will eventually turn into a uniform thread.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[THRAWN]

<snip>
How do you enforce it?

During my tenure as a Region Chaplain...as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, a Protocol Officer was appointed for the event.  Weeks prior the Uniform Manual was sent in addition to the Participants Handbook.   Those attending were notified weeks in advance of what uniforms were to be worn during the event.   Not only were they notified, but also advised that the first morning of the event an inspection would be conducted.   The Protocol Officer presented a briefing (which included uniform wear) the evening before the first full day of classes and would be the inspecting officer.  If they did not meet the standards for wearing the USAF-Style uniform/service dress, they would need to return to their room and change into the gray-whites/blazer combo (polo/grays were not approved for the CCRSC).  It was either "fish or cut bait".   The publications made it clear that even if they wore the uniform at the squadron meetings -- and were not meeting the regs on h/w or grooming -- that would not be a "nod, nod, wink, wink" at CCRSC.  The inspection process worked well for us.   And there is also the adhering to Core Values "look test" -- "Do I look professional in my appearance?"  That involves personal accountability.     On a side note, I wore both the USAF-Style and gray-whites throughout the event.

What was the percentage of those who needed to change uniforms, if any? Hopefully, chaplains would be a little easier to herd than the average group of cats, in this regard. With one notable exception that I think we've beaten up quite well here, chaplains tend to be a little more forward leaning with respect to their uniforms. They are, for the most part, more used to presenting themselves in a professional manner.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.  I understand that there are regs for proper wear of the service dress, and I agree that those regs should be followed.   I guess to be right to the point, as innocent as it may seem to some, I just think it's a little harsh to refer to folks willing to put in their time and effort to an organization, regardless of their physical appearance shouldn't be refereed to by a term that seems derogatory...

Just my opinion...

Again, not to be harsh, but you're missing the point. The ONLY time this term comes up is during uniform issues. Which is...of course where this topic went after you started it. As to the term itself, how would you describe it? "Larger and Hairier"? "Big boned and awesome-bearded"? No matter how you spin it, unless the person wears it by choice, the REASON for their wear is due to not meeting H/W standards, or refusing/being unable/unwilling to shave to be within standards or maintain a relatively short haircut, with regular fixers.


"Fat and Fuzzies" makes that whole sentence easier to say, while avoiding the PC/Long winded BS.


-From a Fat but only occasionally fuzzy.

[Майор Хаткевич]

<snip>
How do you enforce it?

During my tenure as a Region Chaplain...as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, a Protocol Officer was appointed for the event.  Weeks prior the Uniform Manual was sent in addition to the Participants Handbook.   Those attending were notified weeks in advance of what uniforms were to be worn during the event.   Not only were they notified, but also advised that the first morning of the event an inspection would be conducted.   The Protocol Officer presented a briefing (which included uniform wear) the evening before the first full day of classes and would be the inspecting officer.  If they did not meet the standards for wearing the USAF-Style uniform/service dress, they would need to return to their room and change into the gray-whites/blazer combo (polo/grays were not approved for the CCRSC).  It was either "fish or cut bait".   The publications made it clear that even if they wore the uniform at the squadron meetings -- and were not meeting the regs on h/w or grooming -- that would not be a "nod, nod, wink, wink" at CCRSC.  The inspection process worked well for us.   And there is also the adhering to Core Values "look test" -- "Do I look professional in my appearance?"  That involves personal accountability.     On a side note, I wore both the USAF-Style and gray-whites throughout the event.

What was the percentage of those who needed to change uniforms, if any? Hopefully, chaplains would be a little easier to herd than the average group of cats, in this regard. With one notable exception that I think we've beaten up quite well here, chaplains tend to be a little more forward leaning with respect to their uniforms. They are, for the most part, more used to presenting themselves in a professional manner.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18201.20

[THRAWN]

<snip>
How do you enforce it?

During my tenure as a Region Chaplain...as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, a Protocol Officer was appointed for the event.  Weeks prior the Uniform Manual was sent in addition to the Participants Handbook.   Those attending were notified weeks in advance of what uniforms were to be worn during the event.   Not only were they notified, but also advised that the first morning of the event an inspection would be conducted.   The Protocol Officer presented a briefing (which included uniform wear) the evening before the first full day of classes and would be the inspecting officer.  If they did not meet the standards for wearing the USAF-Style uniform/service dress, they would need to return to their room and change into the gray-whites/blazer combo (polo/grays were not approved for the CCRSC).  It was either "fish or cut bait".   The publications made it clear that even if they wore the uniform at the squadron meetings -- and were not meeting the regs on h/w or grooming -- that would not be a "nod, nod, wink, wink" at CCRSC.  The inspection process worked well for us.   And there is also the adhering to Core Values "look test" -- "Do I look professional in my appearance?"  That involves personal accountability.     On a side note, I wore both the USAF-Style and gray-whites throughout the event.

What was the percentage of those who needed to change uniforms, if any? Hopefully, chaplains would be a little easier to herd than the average group of cats, in this regard. With one notable exception that I think we've beaten up quite well here, chaplains tend to be a little more forward leaning with respect to their uniforms. They are, for the most part, more used to presenting themselves in a professional manner.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18201.20

And that is the "one notable exception that I think we've beaten up quite well here" that I mentioned. And now I will be sick again, thank you...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Hey, I've seen chaplains make the same uniform mistakes as the rest of us. They are only human after all.

[Chappie]

<snip>
How do you enforce it?

During my tenure as a Region Chaplain...as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, a Protocol Officer was appointed for the event.  Weeks prior the Uniform Manual was sent in addition to the Participants Handbook.   Those attending were notified weeks in advance of what uniforms were to be worn during the event.   Not only were they notified, but also advised that the first morning of the event an inspection would be conducted.   The Protocol Officer presented a briefing (which included uniform wear) the evening before the first full day of classes and would be the inspecting officer.  If they did not meet the standards for wearing the USAF-Style uniform/service dress, they would need to return to their room and change into the gray-whites/blazer combo (polo/grays were not approved for the CCRSC).  It was either "fish or cut bait".   The publications made it clear that even if they wore the uniform at the squadron meetings -- and were not meeting the regs on h/w or grooming -- that would not be a "nod, nod, wink, wink" at CCRSC.  The inspection process worked well for us.   And there is also the adhering to Core Values "look test" -- "Do I look professional in my appearance?"  That involves personal accountability.     On a side note, I wore both the USAF-Style and gray-whites throughout the event.

What was the percentage of those who needed to change uniforms, if any? Hopefully, chaplains would be a little easier to herd than the average group of cats, in this regard. With one notable exception that I think we've beaten up quite well here, chaplains tend to be a little more forward leaning with respect to their uniforms. They are, for the most part, more used to presenting themselves in a professional manner.

Thrawn...it really hasn't been much of an issue since this practice/policy of publishing the expectations/consequences ahead of time has been in place.  They have been real good at "self-policing" since they know we mean business.  The previous Region Chaplain put the inspection process into place.  More in-time.  Then we started publishing way in advance so no one would be blind-sided or not prepared.  However, there was one chaplain a few years ago, who had actually had two belts sewn together, leave the event rather than change into the appropriate uniform -- his choice, not yours.  He had received the publications regarding the proper uniform wear ahead of time.  He also refused to attend any more CCRSCs because of our "strict" uniform policy (just following the regs...that's all).  His loss.  His justification: "They let me wear this uniform at my squadron meetings".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They are, for the most part, more used to presenting themselves in a professional manner.

Can Chaplains wear their clerical collar if their denomination (Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc) calls for them to, under their service dress?  I know Jewish Chaplains can wear a Yarmulke (sp?).

I've seen it in some other nations' forces, but not in the USAF.


Revd (Group Captain) Jonathan PM Chaffey QHC MA BA RAF

[Chappie]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18201.20
[/quote]

I have it on good authority that steps have been taken so that this will not occur again.

[Chappie]

They are, for the most part, more used to presenting themselves in a professional manner.

Can Chaplains wear their clerical collar if their denomination (Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc) calls for them to, under their service dress?  I know Jewish Chaplains can wear a Yarmulke (sp?).

I've seen it in some other nations' forces, but not in the USAF.


Revd (Group Captain) Jonathan PM Chaffey QHC MA BA RAF

The answer is no...and that is in all branches.   The headwear can be worn under the flight/service cap but the clerical collar cannot be wore with the service dress.  I saw it tried once by a chaplain in our region....emphasis on once -- he had his blue shirt tailored to be clerical (justification...the regs have the word "tab" and this is a clerical tab).  It was corrected by the "then" National Staff Chaplain - an USAF active-duty chaplain assigned to CAP-USAF at NHQ (had an active duty chaplain assigned to NHQ prior to 2001 -- then a corporate director until 2005/2006 -- now the volunteer Chief of the Chaplain Corps oversees everything).    He had to buy a new shirt to continue attending the CCRSC.

[Pulsar]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.  I understand that there are regs for proper wear of the service dress, and I agree that those regs should be followed.   I guess to be right to the point, as innocent as it may seem to some, I just think it's a little harsh to refer to folks willing to put in their time and effort to an organization, regardless of their physical appearance shouldn't be refereed to by a term that seems derogatory...

Just my opinion...

You are exactly correct. There is a certain "breed" of CAP that shows up mostly on CAPtalk. and, yes, most topics some how get twisted into a uniform thread or something totally opposite than the original.

[Garibaldi]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.  I understand that there are regs for proper wear of the service dress, and I agree that those regs should be followed.   I guess to be right to the point, as innocent as it may seem to some, I just think it's a little harsh to refer to folks willing to put in their time and effort to an organization, regardless of their physical appearance shouldn't be refereed to by a term that seems derogatory...

Just my opinion...

You are exactly correct. There is a certain "breed" of CAP that shows up mostly on CAPtalk. and, yes, most topics some how get twisted into a uniform thread or something totally opposite than the original.

So do you know when we're getting ABUs? 

[THRAWN]

Hey, I've seen chaplains make the same uniform mistakes as the rest of us. They are only human after all.

Agreed, but they do seem to be a little more receptive to correction, in general.

[Fortunateson]

Again, I appreciate the comments, however, I didn't post this as an extension of the uniform thread, which seems to be the direction this has taken.  I understand that there are regs for proper wear of the service dress, and I agree that those regs should be followed.   I guess to be right to the point, as innocent as it may seem to some, I just think it's a little harsh to refer to folks willing to put in their time and effort to an organization, regardless of their physical appearance shouldn't be refereed to by a term that seems derogatory...

Just my opinion...

Again, not to be harsh, but you're missing the point. The ONLY time this term comes up is during uniform issues. Which is...of course where this topic went after you started it. As to the term itself, how would you describe it? "Larger and Hairier"? "Big boned and awesome-bearded"? No matter how you spin it, unless the person wears it by choice, the REASON for their wear is due to not meeting H/W standards, or refusing/being unable/unwilling to shave to be within standards or maintain a relatively short haircut, with regular fixers.


"Fat and Fuzzies" makes that whole sentence easier to say, while avoiding the PC/Long winded BS.


-From a Fat but only occasionally fuzzy.

I'm far from PC, but I'd like to think that someone could do better than "fat and fuzzies" like maybe "non comps"... And that only took me a few minutes, I imagine I could do better if I spent more time on it...

[Panache]

As to the term itself, how would you describe it? "Larger and Hairier"? "Big boned and awesome-bearded"?

I prefer "Gravity-Enhanced-American", thank you very much.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Heavies and Hairies? Non-comps? Really? That sounds that much better to you?

[a2capt]

If you've got to get uniform parts custom assembled .. that should be a clue. Never mind that MCSS has those sizes .. but having to assemble your own because they don't?

Umm.. yeah.

[SarDragon]

Non comp - a legal/medical term, short for "non compos mentis", from the Latin, meaning "not of sound mind". I prefer fuzzy as a descriptive term.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Although some civilians may argue that anyone that joins an organization like ours for no pay is non compos mantis...

[Майор Хаткевич]

You sir, owe me a new cup of coffee and a few paper towels.

[EMT-83]

Non-compliant = off his meds again.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you've got to get uniform parts custom assembled .. that should be a clue. Never mind that MCSS has those sizes .. but having to assemble your own because they don't?

It still boggles me that MCSS has those sizes when they're not in regs.

[lordmonar]

If you've got to get uniform parts custom assembled .. that should be a clue. Never mind that MCSS has those sizes .. but having to assemble your own because they don't?

It still boggles me that MCSS has those sizes when they're not in regs.

Well...first USAF does not have a height/weight restriction anymore.......they have a PT test that incorporates BMI.   Second....even if a USAF member is failing his PT standards there may be medical exceptions or other factors that would make it a non-factor for him.  Third....even if a USAF member is on the bad-boy list and is on his/her way out of the service.....they still have to wear a uniform.....who wants to show up for the Article 15 or separation hearing in an ill-fitting uniform? 

[Shuman 14]

I appreciate all the responses, I guess it kind of struck a nerve with me as I would be in that category (for now anyway), and I wasn't sure I wanted to associate myself with an organization that this was a common occurrence in.  For the record, I am no stranger to CAP, although it was 25 years ago.  To give you some background, I completed 4.5 years of AFJROTC in high school, Served 4 years in the Navy as an E-4, and have worked for state and local governments most of my adult life.  I am also a current member of my city's CERT program.  So I don't want folks to think I'm coming in here stirring up trouble.  I'm pretty much a straight shooter and call it like I see it...

That won't mean a thing to some people here. You'll just be seen as an outsider telling CAP how "broke" it is and that you have no right to tell CAP how to fix it because you haven't served in CAP for X+ years.

Trust me I know. 

[Fortunateson]

I appreciate all the responses, I guess it kind of struck a nerve with me as I would be in that category (for now anyway), and I wasn't sure I wanted to associate myself with an organization that this was a common occurrence in.  For the record, I am no stranger to CAP, although it was 25 years ago.  To give you some background, I completed 4.5 years of AFJROTC in high school, Served 4 years in the Navy as an E-4, and have worked for state and local governments most of my adult life.  I am also a current member of my city's CERT program.  So I don't want folks to think I'm coming in here stirring up trouble.  I'm pretty much a straight shooter and call it like I see it...

That won't mean a thing to some people here. You'll just be seen as an outsider telling CAP how "broke" it is and that you have no right to tell CAP how to fix it because you haven't served in CAP for X+ years.

Trust me I know. 

Well I guess that could be true, just thought it was a little odd for people to be referred to that way, especially when outsiders who can read this forum and may be considering joining, see a term used and take offense to it...I can see that it is divided on the opinion of its use, so I guess my question has been answered... Thanks for the responses

[Майор Хаткевич]

Again, what's a better term?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again, what's a better term?

"Those out of height, weight and grooming standards."

[Panache]

Again, what's a better term?

"Heretics"?

[Fortunateson]

Again, what's a better term?

You know I don't know, maybe something that could be said to their face, in person...

[Alaric]

Again, what's a better term?

You know I don't know, maybe something that could be said to their face, in person...

Then I'd go with Cyborg "Those out of height, weight and grooming requirements"

[Cliff_Chambliss]

[[/quote]

"Those out of height, weight and grooming standards."
[/quote]

I would say "Those out of height, weight and/or grooming standards."

[Alaric]

[

"Those out of height, weight and grooming standards."
[/quote]

I would say "Those out of height, weight and/or grooming standards."
[/quote]

agreed

[Eclipse]

I suppose "valued members" is out of the question?

[Panache]

I suppose "valued members" is out of the question?

"In a diet trainee status on your 101 card."

[Майор Хаткевич]

That would imply AF uniform wearers are not. As to saying it to their face...again, this term only comes up here.

[Alaric]

I suppose "valued members" is out of the question?

We are all valued members Eclipse, some of us, like myself are "out of height, weight, and/or grooming requirements"

[jeders]

I suppose "valued members" is out of the question?

We are all valued members Eclipse, some of us, like myself are "out of height, weight, and/or grooming requirements"

I think that's his point.

[BHartman007]

My weight is fine, but my height is out of regulation.

[Garibaldi]

My weight is fine, but my height is out of regulation.

Not overweight, but under-tall.

[Panzerbjorn]

As one of the "fat and fuzzies" I honestly don't worry about it.  Like many others have said, I don't see that term tossed around outside of this forum.  Woodland camoflauge isn't important to me enough to try and defy the regs when blue BDUs work just fine trumping around in the woods.  Polo shirts and slacks are a whole lot more comfortable to fly in than a Nomex flight suit.  Finally, I still have the respect of my cadets and my peers because of my dedication to the program and contributions.

If someone is going to scorn me because I'm heavier than allowed to wear Woodland camoflauge or dress blues, my only response to them is perhaps they should be spending more time helping cadets succeed and getting their ES qualifications than worrying about how many pull-ups I can do.

Where you'll see more "at odds" in CAP is air ops vs ground ops.  If you read through enough of CAPTalk, you'll see those distinct mind sets clearly.  (Sorry to generalize and stereotype, but it's true).  There are plenty of members here and in CAP that have both the air and ground perspectives, but they are in the minority in the organization.

As also said before, don't let CAPTalk determine for you whether you join CAP.  Join because you love aviation, want to work with cadets, and have something to contribute to the organization.

As far as a term to replace "fat and fuzzies"...How about "Corporate Types"?  I like that...fits my attitude and pilot mindset.

[AirAux]

I doubt if anyone called General Curtis LeMay Fat, so how about calling them SAC Warriors?? 

[Private Investigator]

As far as a term to replace "fat and fuzzies"...How about "Corporate Types"?  I like that...fits my attitude and pilot mindset.

I like that   :clap:

[PHall]

I doubt if anyone called General Curtis LeMay Fat, so how about calling them SAC Warriors??

Nobody dared tell the General that he was fat.   He was the Air Force Chief of Staff after he was CINCSAC.
They didn't seem to have a problem with his weight in the Pentagon either!