ES mission expansion, could Big Blue back us up?

[PA Guy]

Folks are right the state of AZ does not control the requirements/ratings within CAP.  However I detect a sentiment on this thread that is all too familiar.  We are the pros from Dover so we shouldn't be subject to the AZ law that applies to every SAR organization in the state. We still don't play well with others then wonder why we aren't called.

Any certification agency such as NASAR, American Heart, Mountain Rescue Assoc. etc. are all money making operations but we need their blessings in order to have credibility in the SAR community and a place in the sandbox.  We should approach this as team players.

Yes, AZWG needs a supplement for the internal CAP issues but just once can't we try to get along with the other SAR players.  We need them much more than they need us especially in Ground Ops.

[wuzafuzz]

I believe a variety of states have some requirements to "play."  Some are more involved than others.  CAP members are subject to state laws if they want a chance to use their skills.  Failure to comply relegates ES ratings (in that jurisdiction) to merit badge status.

Don't like it?  Ask your legislative squadron to help ease the pain.  Or, as someone else mentioned, get CAP to work with the organizations setting standards and recognize our training were appropriate.  Right or wrong, resource typing, standards, and accreditation are an increasing trend in many disciplines.

Having said all that, making noise over trivial requirements will not look good. Spend your time wisely.

Another part of this equation is being a known quantity to local ES managers. They are typically aware of "industry standard" terminology (at least in my experience). They know what a CERT team is, but have no clue what a CAP GTM3 or GES person can do.  We can work to market CAP and explain all the differences. Or we can make it easier by talking the same language.

We still need to train up and perform at or above standards. Pencil whipped ground teams won't impress anyone, whether we speak the same lingo or not.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

...Practices, procedures, and standards prescribed in this regulation are mandatory and may not be supplemented or changed locally without the prior approval of NHQ CAP/DO. ...

Supplements and Waivers. Supplements to this regulation cannot be issued below the wing level (except Congressional Squadron) and require region commander, NHQ CAP/DO, and CAP-USAF/XO approval. Requests for waivers or supplements must be submitted via chain of command to the CAP and CAP-USAF region commanders and then to NHQ CAP/DO for further consideration.

These are the rules and if you think you need different rules these are the hoops to jump thru.

CAPR 60-3, CHAPTER 2 – OPERATIONAL SPECIALTY RATINGS/PERFORMANCE STANDARDS, goes into great detail on how you qualify to be an {fill in the blank} according to CAP. So if it says you need to do A thru Q to become a CAP GTM3, that's the sum total of the requirements unless the hoops referenced above have been jumped thru.

Congratulations you are now a CAP qualified GTM. Now let us turn the operations section of the rules (aka CAPR 60-3).

Ground Operations. Ground teams may be used in virtually all phases of a mission. Ground operations are governed by state and local laws as well as by CAP regulations and policies.

Now this raises an interesting question. If AFRCC assigns a missing aircraft / ELT search to AZWG what applies? AZWG is on a AFAM and is acting as the Air Force Aux (Aux ON). Does the AZ Search and Rescue Manual apply? I don't know. Sounds like a conversation for the AZWG/CC and his JA to have. If AZWG needs ground team assistance from neighboring wings, can they assist?

If AZWG is asked to provide assistance to the {insert county here} Sheriff for a missing person search then clearly we need to play by AZ rules.

The ground branch director is responsible for ensuring the safety of all ground operations. Team capabilities and limitations must be carefully reviewed to verify their suitability for mission assignments.

I would take that to be compliance with state and local laws.

To sum it all up (IMHO)
Meet all the requirements for GTM (including additional ones in approved supplements) you are a CAP GTM (wear the badge)

Participate in a state that has additional requirements for GSAR, the GBD needs to see proof of your meeting those requirements or you don't go.

[Private Investigator]

OK, I'm confused.

If I move to AZWG I can keep my CAP GTL rating but if I want to participate in SAR I must also complete the AZ state requirements?

At one time if you moved to a certain Wing, the Wing CC and DO wanted to "recertify" your GTL status. Just because you was a GTL for the Petticoat Junction Senior SQ did not qualify you to be a GTL there.   

[Eclipse]

To sum it all up (IMHO)
Meet all the requirements for GTM (including additional ones in approved supplements) you are a CAP GTM (wear the badge)

Participate in a state that has additional requirements for GSAR, the GBD needs to see proof of your meeting those requirements or you don't go.

Yep - which means a Wing ESO has no reason or authority to bounce the qual based solely on the SARTech or any other alleged state requirement.
(Did anyone else notice that term isn't used in any of the quoted verbiage?)

And, this is important, that Wing ESO is going to need an entire subsystem, specific to that wing and accepted by the state of Arizona, to track
the compliance with their state law.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

OK, I'm confused.

If I move to AZWG I can keep my CAP GTL rating but if I want to participate in SAR I must also complete the AZ state requirements?

At one time if you moved to a certain Wing, the Wing CC and DO wanted to "recertify" your GTL status. Just because you was a GTL for the Petticoat Junction Senior SQ did not qualify you to be a GTL there.   

Still the case to transfer wings and keep an IC rating (Wing CC approval)

[Eclipse]

OK, I'm confused.

If I move to AZWG I can keep my CAP GTL rating but if I want to participate in SAR I must also complete the AZ state requirements?

At one time if you moved to a certain Wing, the Wing CC and DO wanted to "recertify" your GTL status. Just because you was a GTL for the Petticoat Junction Senior SQ did not qualify you to be a GTL there.   

CAPR 60-3, Dec 2012 Page 29
2-6. Transfers From Other Wings. Specialty qualification ratings issued in one wing or
region will normally be transferred to another wing (or region) without the need for the member
to re-accomplish the entire initial training program for various specialty ratings.
a. The transferring member must contact the new wing (or higher unit) and provide
copies of his or her emergency services records to the member's unit of assignment. Electronic
records will automatically be transferred once a member's transfer request is processed by
national headquarters. When a member transfers to a new wing he or she may have to
accomplish additional training to remain qualified based on approved supplements to this
regulation in the new wing.

So this says to me that unless you have an approved supplement, ratings should transfer without comment
(and as a matter of practical fact, they will), and if your wing does have a supplement, then the
requal or training should be related to the supplement, not a general erasure of ratings.

As noted, by reg, IC quals do not transfer.

[sardak]

Any certification agency such as NASAR, American Heart, Mountain Rescue Assoc. etc. are all money making operations

Really? then you left CAP off the list of money making operations.

Here are my memberships:
Civil Air Patrol 501(c)3 - personal dues (my wing) $62/year, organization receives money from many states, federal money to the tune of $30 million give or take. 60,000 members.

NASAR 501(c)3 - personal dues $54/year, , SAR organization dues $165/yr, NASAR receives no money from states, receives no federal money, NASAR charges fixed fees for certifications and classes.  Instructors can personally charge the students whatever they're willing to pay. A few thousand members. SAR Tech certification does not require taking any NASAR classes.

Mountain Rescue Association 501(c)3 - personal dues $0/year, organization receives no money from states and no federal money. Accredits only teams, not individuals, charges $0 for the accreditations, which teams must go through every 5 years. Team dues are $5/member with both fixed minimum and maximum team dues since team sizes vary. 76 SAR teams, 19 ex-officio government organizations

Check their annual financial reports to see how "money making" NASAR and MRA are.

Mike

[PA Guy]

Any certification agency such as NASAR, American Heart, Mountain Rescue Assoc. etc. are all money making operations

Really? then you left CAP off the list of money making operations.

Here are my memberships:
Civil Air Patrol 501(c)3 - personal dues (my wing) $62/year, organization receives money from many states, federal money to the tune of $30 million give or take. 60,000 members.

NASAR 501(c)3 - personal dues $54/year, , SAR organization dues $165/yr, NASAR receives no money from states, receives no federal money, NASAR charges fixed fees for certifications and classes.  Instructors can personally charge the students whatever they're willing to pay. A few thousand members. SAR Tech certification does not require taking any NASAR classes.

Mountain Rescue Association 501(c)3 - personal dues $0/year, organization receives no money from states and no federal money. Accredits only teams, not individuals, charges $0 for the accreditations, which teams must go through every 5 years. Team dues are $5/member with both fixed minimum and maximum team dues since team sizes vary. 76 SAR teams, 19 ex-officio government organizations

Check their annual financial reports to see how "money making" NASAR and MRA are.

Mike

Well, I hope you feel better now that you have got that off your chest.

The point I was trying to make, apparently not too well, was that all certification agencies/groups have to charge to meet at least their overhead. Obviously some do a better job than others. I was not picking on either NASAR or MRA they just came to mind as related to SAR.

[Eclipse]

Interestingly, NASAR is considering lowering their certification and membership costs because of shrinking revenues.

[AZWGSAR]

Good Morning ES/GT Enthusiasts;

Let me shed some light on the discussion of the Arizona Wing Ground Team Member requirements.  As the AZWG SAR Officer and Director Of Ground Operations I feel I am probably qualified to provide some accurate information.

First - To the contributor who raised the issue of a members GTM3 qualifications being delayed.  This is a personnel issue.  Approval is pending verification of some of the information on the SQTR.  The process is pending the member providing the information.  I caution members about creating dissension over issues when they are not directly involved, and do not possess accurate information.   Problems are easily solved when the accurate information is known.

The Arizona Wing has very robust and award winning Ground SAR program.  We are always actively recruiting members, especially senior members.  AZWG GTMs meet and train regularly and everyone is welcome. 

The State Of Arizona requires all SAR volunteers (including CAP) to complete the Arizona Basic SAR Academy in order to be deployable as a SAR volunteer in Arizona, and to be covered by State Workers Compensation Insurance.  The SAR Academy is free and is offered at various locations around the state on a regular basis.  AZWG sends active GTMs to the State SAR Academy regularly.

As has been stated by others, CAP is not the lead SAR agency.  We support other agencies who call on us for resources.  The lead SAR agencies; being Sheriff's, Emergency Management, etc; are our customers.  In Arizona we have made the commitment to our customers to provide them with the highest quality SAR Team that we can possibly field.  It is a priority goal of the AZWG ES program to be interoperable with our customers.  As such, we strongly encourage our GTMs to attain professional qualifications such as SARTECH II, WFR, MLPI, National SAR School, etc; and to regularly participate in the State SAR Conference and other agencies training. 

This professional development is voluntary and is in addition to CAP GTM qualifications.  AZWG has no additional requirements for members to be awarded any GTM rating.

The Arizona Wing Ground Team Program is very active, highly visible, and user friendly.  We are always seeking quality, professional members who want to excel at providing SAR services for the State of Arizona.  i invite anyone with questions to contact me, or any AZWG Ground Team Leader for information.

Thanks for the opportunity to clear the air.  I hope to hear from some potential new GT folks.

Thanks

[Eclipse]

First - To the contributor who raised the issue of a members GTM3 qualifications being delayed.  This is a personnel issue.  Approval is pending verification of some of the information on the SQTR.  The process is pending the member providing the information.  I caution members about creating dissension over issues when they are not directly involved, and do not possess accurate information.   Problems are easily solved when the accurate information is known.

What needs to be "verified"?  OPS Quals is electronically validated and approved end-to-end now.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Second issue:

From AZWGSAR:

This professional development is voluntary and is in addition to CAP GTM qualifications.  AZWG has no additional requirements for members to be awarded any GTM rating.

If members qualified under CAP regulations are not allowed to participate in SAR without this professional development, the PD itself is not voluntary, it is mandated.

This issue is skirted very well by AZWGSAR. It should not have been. This is where the readers are upset. AZ Wing staff has accepted this, tacitly, and apparently decided to ignore an NHQ requirement - to have an ES supplement covering the issue. I could not find any online, among the many, many, many Arizona Wing documents and forms online or under revision. Are there any, or are there not?

Flyer

[Eclipse]

I stand corrected.  This is clearly an important activity, especially for already rated and qualified CAP ground team members, and
is obviously in >no way< intended for the general public who are not members of organized agencies with structured training
and qualifications programs.  I will go even further to say that it clear why the Legislative officers haven't tried to have the law changed
to take into account people who already have training and qualifications from a nationally recognized organization with a structured training program.

http://www.azwg.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:cap-members-complete-sar-training&catid=1:latest-news


"On a cloudy, drizzly weekend, the 26th and 27th of January, the Arizona Basic Search and Rescue Academy was hosted at the Maricopa County Sheriff's Training Center.  Nine CAP Search and Rescue personnel were students in this course.

The weekend training provided a new perspective on ground team policies and procedures to not only new personnel, but also the veteran members.  An updated Arizona State Search and Rescue manual was introduced which covered multiple topics primarily applicable to the Arizona environment.

Several agencies and Sheriff's Posses participated in this event, including High Desert SAR Posse, DSU Posse, Communications Posse, Dares Posse, Aviation Rangers Posse, Pinal County Posse, the Mountain Rescue team, and our own Civil Air Patrol Arizona Wing Ground Team, with members from Deer Valley, Glendale, Falcon, and Williams Gateway Squadrons.

The first day was composed of

intensely concentrated training.  Deputy Sheriff Jesse Robinson taught us how Search and Rescue is organized in Arizona, emphasizing the importance of proper implementation of the Incident Command System, a FEMA protocol used nationwide to provide a way for multiple agencies to efficiently combine resources.  From SAR Trainer Robby Houle, we learned proper searching techniques and the variety of resources each mission has available.

The instructors also described the prerequisites for volunteers and gave insight on how to compile a basic, required survival pack.

There was almost an emergency situation halfway through the first day.  Several students nearly fell victim to a condition I had only heard rumors of but had never before witnessed: "Death by PowerPoint."  Fortunately, the instructor recognized the symptoms; glazed eyes, a hypnotic stare, or eyes closed in the final resting stages of "meditation" which occur just prior to falling off of one's chair... A short break to walk around and stretch out the muscles saved the day!

With all 72 attendees ready for more training from the staff, the second day of the course covered many vital search topics, including personal and team care, local desert hazards, identifying search areas, and using a compass.   Ransom Anderson, from the Desert Search Unit, walked us through the process of distinguishing a footprint from the surroundings and from other prints.  We were also taught how to use a compass to find one's own location on a map.

The weekend concluded with an outdoor exercise on locating clues as part of a search line, followed by a missing person simulation that allowed us to practice our tracking skills by spotting the "subject's" footprints and signs that he had been there.  Although the trail went cold, our Ground Team's searchers did find a black chicken that might or might not have belonged to the subject.

The Arizona Basic Search and Rescue Academy is a state requirement for all SAR volunteers (including CAP).  The SAR Academy provides an essential sharpening tool that will hone your skills and make you a more valuable Ground Team member.  My own participation in this activity is directly thanks to the efforts of Lt Col "Fritz" Seifritz and Maj David Gregor who are my mentors in SAR training.  Keep your eyes open for the next training opportunity!"

[Luis R. Ramos]

Aha!

I will run now to suggest NHQ include all those items underlined in Eclipse's message in CAP's future SQTRs for Ground Teams.



Wait, NHQ already includes those items now, and they have been included for a long time! So basically this school is just a refresher taught by different people...



Flyer

[abdsp51]

Good Morning ES/GT Enthusiasts;

Let me shed some light on the discussion of the Arizona Wing Ground Team Member requirements.  As the AZWG SAR Officer and Director Of Ground Operations I feel I am probably qualified to provide some accurate information.

First - To the contributor who raised the issue of a members GTM3 qualifications being delayed.  This is a personnel issue.  Approval is pending verification of some of the information on the SQTR.  The process is pending the member providing the information.  I caution members about creating dissension over issues when they are not directly involved, and do not possess accurate information.   Problems are easily solved when the accurate information is known.

The State Of Arizona requires all SAR volunteers (including CAP) to complete the Arizona Basic SAR Academy in order to be deployable as a SAR volunteer in Arizona, and to be covered by State Workers Compensation Insurance.  The SAR Academy is free and is offered at various locations around the state on a regular basis.  AZWG sends active GTMs to the State SAR Academy regularly.


This professional development is voluntary and is in addition to CAP GTM qualifications.  AZWG has no additional requirements for members to be awarded any GTM rating.

Thanks for the opportunity to clear the air.  I hope to hear from some potential new GT folks.

Thanks

Sir,

I will call BS on all the bolded parts.  The member met the organization's requirements for his GT rating and learned it would not be approved until he had SARTECH.  SARTECH or SAR academy may be free but there is a fee for the cert test which is close to a hundred bucks.  Since I have been a member of this wing I have not heard one positive thing about the wings GT or ES ops outside of the aircrew.

BLUF by your own admission that the SARTECH and SAR academy are not required for a GT rating then approve or deny the paperwork provide solid justification for any denial.  This member has already given up on doing GT and this just provides more reason for me to not support or encourage membership to participate.

[a2capt]

Couple of things, interestingly, "AZWG SAR Officer and Director Of Ground Operations". Two positions, neither of which are on a standard org chart. Or on the Wing Staff listed online.

Reading that article written by the cadet on the Wing website, at least to me, I sense a bit of bashing the activity, as a waste of time, etc. Not quite the impression I would want to give off as a peer organization, of a training session that was put on. Perhaps it's reading the Eclipsed version with the highlighted sections..

Otherwise, reading that it sure does sound pretty much like the same kind of training that is standardized across our whole organization.

So much that perhaps our organization should realize that and maybe go to bat for it's members and say "hey, you know.. we do all that, but we can see where you're coming from.. but since we do all that, how about we call it a day?"

Oh, but some revenue channel would be so upset.

Sigh..

Politics and Gob Networks.

Of course, I could be full of it, I don't like live in AZ anymore, it's been years. I didn't know what CAP was, when I was there. But if all I have to go on is that article on the Wing site, and the other requirements text posted here, I'd say this is a great example of GoB networking keeping the inner circle .. small.   But that's just me.


EDIT: One word change as annotated above.

[RiverAux]

I would quibble a bit about the description of the NASAR SARTECH certification as "professional development".  It is just a certification sponsored by another agency and is no more and no less a certification than CAP's various GT quals.  Granted, it is much more familiar to folks in the SAR field than ours, but it isn't any more professional. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

The same comments apply to Arizona's Wing staff describing the state Search and Rescue academy as "voluntary PD." The comments of the class, which was reproduced by Eclipse is the same preparation that our Ground Teams take tobe qualified for ground teams. The difference is that it is given by an Arizona  Search and Rescue group.

Flyer