Group Commander Assignments

[SarDragon]

WIWAC there was a level called "sector", described as an extension of the wing HQ staff...sector CCs supervised 3-5 groups in a LARGE wing, with very limited staff --deputy for ops, deputy for CC, mainly to address span of control issues for wing CCs

Well, the new 20-1 (Page 13, see asterisk on the Vice Commander slot) permits a Wing to have two vice commanders if approved by the Region/CC.

That would be a way to bridge Span-of-Control, each CV supervises a set of Groups...it's actually how SER is structured, with the two CVs each responsible for some of the Wings

CAWG used to do that at the wing level (CV North and CV South), as did my group, because of the geographical considerations.

[Woodsy]

Thank you Eclipse for your response. I will be moving to Florida soon. I would love to have the opportunity to be assigned someday as a Group Commander, I am currently CDC and have been in Group and Wing staff before. I know that the current Group CC there has 23 units under the group and expands from North FL (Jax) to Central Fl (south of Orlando) I really don't know the situation but no matter how great staff you got that could be a span of  control issue. By no means I am trying to tell anyone how to run their Wing. I am a believer of C&C but I think that having less units, A group CC can dedicate more time to the units and help them to become stronger. I believe that stronger units could be a stronger Group. What do you think?

The group you are talking about is group 2, which I was on staff at the time of the expansion.  The group 4 CC left the position and an interim (who was a former NYWG CC) was appointed.  The interim was just helping out and didn't want the position permanently and told  the wing CC that he would be willing to do it for X amount of months, I don't remember exactly but I'm thinking it was 3 or 4...  The wing posted and advertised the group CC position but an appropriate replacement could not be found at that time.  Thus group 4 was dissolved and squadrons became part of group 2, 3 or 5.  The CC is a great guy and is somehow managing, but it's definitely a challenge. 

Coloncapfl, where in FL are you moving? 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Easy. Make a group 5-10 units max.

[coloncapfl]

Orlando, sir

[Woodsy]

Orlando, sir

Cool.  Several good squadrons in that area. 

[coloncapfl]

I know. I used to be first part of Group 9 CP then went to 259 until I had a financial situation and was hard for me to even go to the meetings. Good Sq.

[SarDragon]

Easy. Make a group 5-10 units max.

It will be easy as soon as you come up with a solid plan to staff the additional groups. That's why CAWG has seven now, instead of the fifteen or so they used to have.

[coloncapfl]

Woodsy. Thanks for the info. Is always good to know. I know it could really be challenging for the Group CC with not only that many Sq but also the ammount of counties involved. Plus you got 4 major counties (Orange, Volusio, Brevard, and the Jacksonville Metroplex) those alone are a handful. I lived in Central Florida for 16 yrs

[coloncapfl]

Part of the solution could be to have groups with a basic staff and oversee the core solutions where other issues could just be forward to Wing. We have to remember that the Groups are optional and the reason for them is to assist the Wing CC with span of control. I rather see several Group CCC at least resolving some of the solutions and expediting to Wing others, than overloading a Group CC in order to have a full staff. I am not saying that it could work in all scenarios but I think it could work on some. Besides I believe that Seniors in Level 3 or higher could benefit of the experience. There could even be terms like the CC's. They are just ideas.

[JeffDG]

Easy. Make a group 5-10 units max.

but then you end up with span of control issues for the wing/cc

[RiverAux]

Part of the solution could be to have groups with a basic staff and oversee the core solutions where other issues could just be forward to Wing.

I think there are a decent number of positions that don't really need to be staffed at a Group level. 

[jimmydeanno]

Easy. Make a group 5-10 units max.

but then you end up with span of control issues for the wing/cc

So the wing/cc has "span of control issues" with 5-10 group commanders reporting, but a group commander should have to burden 10-20?  I'd rather have 5 group commanders with 8 units each than 3 group commanders with 13 units.  But, it's one of the reasons that I have some heartburn about CAP's organizational model in the first place.  CAWG, for example, has an "O-6" with around hundred units and 7 groups.  That means that the group commanders have a bigger "span of control" than the wing commander does.  In CAWG, you also have some group commanders who have 12 units while others have 5. 

I think we're letting geography play too much of a role in our organizational model.

[coloncapfl]

Jeff:
I understand your concern , but I think someone else commented a solution for that, which is having more than 1 Deputy Commander at wing in charge of an amount of Groups, SER has 2 Vice commanders, one that covers Georgia, Florida and Puerto Rico (where I'm from, sorry had to say it) and the other covering Tennessee, Alabama and Mississippi. I think that could solve the span of control issue

[Private Investigator]

WIWAC there was a level called "sector", described as an extension of the wing HQ staff...sector CCs supervised 3-5 groups in a LARGE wing, with very limited staff --deputy for ops, deputy for CC, mainly to address span of control issues for wing CCs

Well, the new 20-1 (Page 13, see asterisk on the Vice Commander slot) permits a Wing to have two vice commanders if approved by the Region/CC.

That would be a way to bridge Span-of-Control, each CV supervises a set of Groups...it's actually how SER is structured, with the two CVs each responsible for some of the Wings

+1

[Private Investigator]

Easy. Make a group 5-10 units max.

It will be easy as soon as you come up with a solid plan to staff the additional groups. That's why CAWG has seven now, instead of the fifteen or so they used to have.

Staffing is an interesting question. For example, Communications. Does the Group/DC, Wing/DC and Region/DC suppose to help Squadron Communication Officers? Or did we just create a mess? What expertise do we expect at Group level?

For a Group Staff how many bodies do we need? 30 of which 10 is assigned and the other 20 is IAOD. Or just three bodies.

[coloncapfl]

The Group echelon is an optional level to assist Wing in span of control. You can have a Group staff with 9 to 10 people and have the group take care of basic concerns and assist the Squadrons as when Group can just forward other issues to the Wing and be like a liaison in assisting with the process. This is just a rough idea, something like this could be worked out and planned until there is enough talent to fill all group positions, but with a strategy plan in place, the Group does not have the urgency of filling certain positions since it has SOP's in place. At least that is what I would do.

[Private Investigator]

When I was a Group Commander I was always recruiting Staff. When the Wing IG came to inspect my Group I had ten or twelve Staff members and it was done quickly. The Wing IG mentioned the other Groups he inspected. One took all day because the Group Commander was the only person there. Another Group had just a husband and wife team.

Best Group Commander I ever had pulled out the Group HQ SOP from 1952 and said, we will follow directions. Most people in CAP today has no ideal what a SOP.   

[ZigZag911]

Some Group positions can be "dual hatted" very easily, e.g., LG/LGT, DA/DP.

Some can be filled by experienced squadron personnel on an ADY basis; it's good for them to see the 'bigger picture', too, particularly if they hope to command a squadron at some point

[a2capt]

My group in SoCal has 12 units, six in each county (San Diego, and Orange). The two most widely separated squadrons are 108 miles apart, but the units within each county are more closely located, with a distance between the farthest San Diego County units at 49 miles. The Orange County units are much closer together. It's pretty easy for the group commander to visit the OC units, since they are close to group HQ, and a little harder to visit in SD County. But it gets done.

..and the scuttlebutt on drawing a line at the county line and making a Group 8 out of one of them is growing louder, for much that very reason.

[SarDragon]

Well when we had Deputy North and Deputy South, it seemed to work fairly well, so I'm not sure why that died. Breaking it at the county line isn't a hot idea either, since the two units up north are closer to OC than SD downtown.

Now that I think about it, Group 7 HQ was at NAS NORIS for a while, and we know how that turned out.