Group Commander Assignments

[coloncapfl]

I have a question. CAP20-1 gives the Wing Commander authority to form Group when the number of units is too large to properly supervise (I am paraphrasing) and a minimum of 5 units is what the Regulations requires, Why can't the regulations set a maximum of units that a Group Commander should be assigned to? I believe that 10 should be a maximum amount to efficiently supervise and be able to visit. Imagine a Group Commander with 20 squadrons to supervise. I think that creating a limit would allow opportunities for other seniors to grow in the program and have greater exposure and opportunities. Please send your opinions. I only ask to be a gentleman in your responses, but I would love to hear from you.

[Private Investigator]

Good question. When I was a Group Commander I had ten Squadrons. I was really extended if I wanted to visit Squadrons, attend Group meetings and make an appearance at weekend activities.

Five to seven would be best. In Idaho Wing when they had Groups. The North Group (the panhandle) only had two Squadrons because of geography. So that is another consideration. Now if Wing would authorize Group Commanders travel pay, I would not mine flying to CAP Posts in the boonies. 

Group Commander is an excellent way to prepare to be Wing Commander and you will also see how different each Squadron is.

Good luck and have fun.   

[SarDragon]

My group in SoCal has 12 units, six in each county (San Diego, and Orange). The two most widely separated squadrons are 108 miles apart, but the units within each county are more closely located, with a distance between the farthest San Diego County units at 49 miles. The Orange County units are much closer together. It's pretty easy for the group commander to visit the OC units, since they are close to group HQ, and a little harder to visit in SD County. But it gets done.

I think the group geography makes the biggest difference, and the availability of group commanders. CAWG went from a large number of groups (>15?) to 7 right before I transferred to the wing. I don't know what the impetus was (PHall or bosshawk?) but it happened.

[Private Investigator]

CAWG went from a large number of groups (>15?) to 7 right before I transferred to the wing.

I am thinking that would be a "span of control" issue.

[dwb]

Only a relatively small minority of Wings have Groups, so it's left to the Wing CC to make sure they're divided up in a sensible fashion.

I was a Group CC in NYWG, and I had six squadrons. Here in VAWG, there are three Groups with eight squadrons each.

It's not only the number of squadrons, but also the geographic expanse of those units. The Groups in VA cover a lot of square miles, and I wouldn't necessarily want to be a Group CC here because of that.

[JeffDG]

Only a relatively small minority of Wings have Groups, so it's left to the Wing CC to make sure they're divided up in a sensible fashion.

Actually, of 52 wings, 23 of them have Groups, ranging from New Mexico that has 1 Group (Wha?  One group) up to New York with 9.  That's nearly half, so not a "small minority".

AZ   4
CA   7
CO   2
FL   6
GA   4
IL   6
IN   4
LA   3
MD   3
MI   8
MN   4
MO   5
NC   5
NJ   3
NM   1
NY   9
OH   6
PA   7
PR   7
TN   4
TX   7
VA   3
WI   6

[FlyTiger77]

Only a relatively small minority of Wings have Groups...

How many wings still have groups?

TNWG has four groups covering a state with a land area of 42,000+ square miles. I currently have 5 squadrons in the SE portion of the state.

[JeffDG]

Only a relatively small minority of Wings have Groups...

How many wings still have groups?

TNWG has four groups covering a state with a land area of 42,000+ square miles. I currently have 5 squadrons in the SE portion of the state.

I think our posts passed in the aether.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How many wings are under 5 units?

[JeffDG]

How many wings are under 5 units?

Here's a breakdown, I think these include the -000 units too, so none are under 5, but RI is 5.
Wing   Unit Count
FL   81
TX   71
CA   69
NY   59
PA   58
OH   43
MI   41
GA   40
PR   35
NC   33
IL   32
CO   32
IN   32
MD   31
TN   31
MO   30
WI   30
WA   29
AZ   28
NJ   26
VA   25
MN   24
NM   23
NHQ   21
AL   21
SC   21
AK   20
KY   17
MA   17
NE   17
OK   17
LA   16
NV   16
CT   16
MS   15
UT   14
WV   14
OR   13
AR   12
HI   12
ID   11
KS   11
ME   11
IA   10
MT   10
WY   10
NH   10
DE   9
VT   8
ND   8
SD   8
DC   7
RI   6
SER   1
RMR   1
PCR   1
GLR   1
SWR   1
MER   1
NER   1
NCR   1
Grand Total   1309

[Майор Хаткевич]

Six wings under 10, so no groups with the 5 unit criteria.

[JeffDG]

Six wings under 10, so no groups with the 5 unit criteria.

Well, they could be like New Mexico with 1 Group...

Anyone from NMWG that can say why they have a single Group?

[sardak]

We had a discussion a in 2011 about wings with groups. http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14408.0

Posted in that discussion was the attached chart of wings with groups and wing membership as of 2010 (so the numbers may have changed). From that discussion:

Using 2010 CAP membership data and US census data, a couple of correlations can be seen:

1. CAP wings with membership of over 1000 have groups with the exception of AKWG (1003) and ALWG (1027). CAP wings with less than 1000 members which have groups are NMWG (943) and LAWG (585).

2. CAP wings in states with a population of 4 million or greater have groups, with three exceptions: KYWG (4.3 mil), ALWG (4.8 mil) and MAWG (6.6 mil). Wings with groups in states/territories with less than 4 million residents are PRWG (3.7 mil) and NMWG (2.1 mil).

As for defining groups, I searched the membership directory for "group" and checked the websites of wings where group status was unclear. I included WAWG with its area commands, AZWG since it has four regional HQs which contain squadrons and "provide oversight" and NMWG which has Group 800 consisting of school chartered units. There are a total of 25 wings with groups by these definitions.

Mike

[FlyTiger77]

Six wings under 10, so no groups with the 5 unit criteria.

Well, they could be like New Mexico with 1 Group...

Anyone from NMWG that can say why they have a single Group?

Perhaps it is just an odd way of designating an NMWG vice commander.

Or....what Mike just posted, which makes sense.

[JeffDG]

My methodology was much simpler.

I went into the CAPWATCH organization table and picked Wings with a unit type of "GROUP" in it.

[dwb]

Actually, of 52 wings, 23 of them have Groups, ranging from New Mexico that has 1 Group (Wha?  One group) up to New York with 9.  That's nearly half, so not a "small minority".

Well, I stand corrected. The last number I was told was much smaller than 23, but that was admittedly a long time ago.

[MIKE]

What about making Groups mandatory?  Restructuring the current Wings and Regions to be regional instead of based on state boundaries.  RIWG effectively becomes a Group of Northern Northeast Region.

[NIN]

What about making Groups mandatory?  Restructuring the current Wings and Regions to be regional instead of based on state boundaries.  RIWG effectively becomes a Group of Northern Northeast Region.

You *might* have more difficulty with dealing with state governments if you're not the "home team" per se.

Think of how well you folks from Mass are regarded up here.  "Buy some liquor on the highway, then go the hell home."

[jimmydeanno]

"Buy some liquor on the highway, then go the hell home."

"But not at any of the stores past Nashua, Salem, or Portsmouth."

[ZigZag911]

I like Mike's suggestion, which should be applied more  based on membership than geographical size...historically the smaller wings have fewer members, and, with the normal turnover in personnel, difficulty staffing wing HQs with experienced officers...it would be lifting a burden from some of the smaller wings to re-designate them "groups", either reporting through a neighboring wing or directly to region HQ.

The issue of dealing with state governments could actually be a non-issue...I doubt many state legislators would notice the difference if someone said they were the "______ State CAP Wing Commander" or "______ State CAP Group Commander".