Benefits of CAP Moving from Air University to Air National Guard

[JohnKachenmeister]

The NG helicopters and CAP would be reporting to the Air Ops Director, probably from the Div of Forestry.  CAP will be providing recon to them, not to the Guard. 

Under any conceivable situation, you are going to have to go through the NOC or AFRCC to activate CAP no matter what structure you've got.  The time when you could be activated under an MOU without having to go through one of those offices is long past and I don't see us going back.  CAP is not going to grant the NG the authority to call up CAP resources without their approval any more than they are to the state emergency management agencies now. 

I do not concur.  With CAP OPCON to the TAG, all that would be required is for the Wing King or his designate to notify NOC.  The mission number and reimbursement would come from the TAG. 

[RiverAux]

Very, very doubtful.  You keep forgetting that lacking a major restructuring of state and federal laws and the CAP Constitution that CAP will still be in control of CAP resources.  CAP and the AF have decided to keep a very tight reign on these resources.  We once had all sorts of MOUs that granted the Wing King authority to launch missions for various state and local agencies at their request.  Those are no more and even missions specifically approved under MOUs have to go through the NOC.   

I do not see that control ever being delegated away again under any circumstances.  In my experience this has actually resulted in missions being approved by the NOC or AFRCC that probably wouldn't have been if the Wing CC had to make the hard call about whether or not it was appropriate for CAP.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Air National Guard is an Air Force major command.  This plan does not leave CAP completely bereft of AF supervision.

In fact, since all Asst AG's for Air are also Air Force general officers, it could be argued that the Air Force is actually applying closer supervision and scrutiny to CAP operations at the Wing level.

[Dragoon]

[ But if they are  your guys all the time, you become familiar with them.  You inspect them.  You have the authority to tell them what to focus on.

No, we will still be a non-profit corporation.  In another very long thread on this very same issue people just don't get that unless you change the very nature of CAP, it doesn't matter who CAP reports to operationally or where we are at administratively.  If people want to propose changing a whole bunch of laws at the federal and state level so that this can happen, thats fine.  But just having TAG being the one REQUESTING CAP to respond to a mission rather than the state emergency management agency or AFRCC doesn't change anything. 

Actually, USAF at the federal level wields a fair amount authority over CAP through their inspection programs.  I'd assume NG would do the same.  Basically, if we didn't impress them, they wouldn't call on us.  So....we'd work hard at earning that trust.  And they'd return the favor by trusting us.

NG is set up to respond to emergencys.  They get calls we never do. They also have command centers that are pretty good a mobilizing resources.  They'd call us.

The difference is that the EMA calls when they need an asset.  But since the Guard IS an asset, they would also call when they needed augmentation.  That's something EMA doesn't think about too often, from what I've seen.  More calls, more missions, more opportunities to serve.

[mikeylikey]

I am not going to search, but does each state have an Air National Guard?  Does Puerto Rico, DC, Etc? 

Like the second poster said way back, if CAP were to move to another AF Command and NOT the NGB I would be supportive.

Why is CAP-USAF a part of AU anyway?  I can see an Office of CAP-USAF being at AU for training and whatnot, but CAP needs to be moved to a more operational level, and the Commander of CAP-USAF should be at least a 1 star. 

Lets take a play from CAP circa 1950 and move things around.  I personally would welcome an Appointed AF Brigadier General as the CAP National Commander again.

[Capt Rivera]

I am not going to search, but does each state have an Air National Guard?  Does Puerto Rico, DC, Etc? 

Like the second poster said way back, if CAP were to move to another AF Command and NOT the NGB I would be supportive.

Why is CAP-USAF a part of AU anyway?  I can see an Office of CAP-USAF being at AU for training and whatnot, but CAP needs to be moved to a more operational level, and the Commander of CAP-USAF should be at least a 1 star. 

Lets take a play from CAP circa 1950 and move things around.  I personally would welcome an Appointed AF Brigadier General as the CAP National Commander again.

I believe every state does. For sure the areas you listed do.

[Major Carrales]

With CAP under the NGB and in the service of the various States, aren't any of you concerned over how each wing will "alter" CAP to fit its structures.

I mean, imagine what could happen...

I see a CAP National Convention with 52 different uniforms based on "Regional" needs, Khaki Service Coats in the Southwest, Shorts in the more tropical areas, hosts of State Ribbons and other things (maybe even baldrics).  Where the "local/State" control and reaction time closeness many want from such a relationship reduces CAP to a loose assoication of 52 seperate Organizations.

CAP would be untilized in some states, turn solely into a cadet program in others, be more an ARMY Auxiliary in others.

A CAP Confederation would spell the end of CAP.  Once CAP is no longer the sort of Congressionally Chartered Organization and direct instrumentality of the USAF (be it in any of their direct COMMANDS); the local "tastes of CAP" will dilute its importance to the USAF and it will slowly dwindle to oblivion.

My point in this hypebole?  Think about what you want to do and be careful what you wish for.

[mikeylikey]

^ The NG in each state seems to get along OK.  They all follow AF/ Army regs fine.  CAP would be no different. 

I see where you are coming from though.  I would much rather have CAP under another AF command that is more operational than AU.

[Major Carrales]

^ The NG in each state seems to get along OK.  They all follow AF/ Army regs fine.  CAP would be no different. 

I see where you are coming from though.  I would much rather have CAP under another AF command that is more operational than AU.

I took it to ridiculous extremes only to get people thinking about what can happen in the worst case. 

How quickly people seek to jump in the pool before they even examine the liquid therein.

[Tubacap]

I'm not sure how any move would benefit us honestly.  I'm from PAWG and we have a decent working relationship with PEMA through DMVA and this happened through the work of some key people in the Ops Section.  I think Iowa has shown that we can create those relationships under our existing structure, we just need to move at the Wing level and make it happen.  We already are being used by 1st AF quite a bit, maybe moving us there would streamline things, but I don't see the paperwork.

As far as uniforms, I come from the orange hat fiefdom, I don't think it could get much more ununiform, although I'm sure people would use their imagination.

I guess it comes down to where you want to spend your time butting heads.  I'm not sure pleading with Big Blue to change our MAJCOM designation will get us more missions as much as getting the missions and then going back to our parent service and saying, "Hey, we are doing x,y, and z, we would be able to do these more efficiently and with less cost if we were under oversight by this MAJCOM."  The only benefits to this I would see would be insurance.

As far as the liquid in the pool, as long as it is not warm where I jump in and cool everywhere else, I'm ok!

[JohnKachenmeister]

With CAP under the NGB and in the service of the various States, aren't any of you concerned over how each wing will "alter" CAP to fit its structures.

I mean, imagine what could happen...

I see a CAP National Convention with 52 different uniforms based on "Regional" needs, Khaki Service Coats in the Southwest, Shorts in the more tropical areas, hosts of State Ribbons and other things (maybe even baldrics).  Where the "local/State" control and reaction time closeness many want from such a relationship reduces CAP to a loose assoication of 52 seperate Organizations.

CAP would be untilized in some states, turn solely into a cadet program in others, be more an ARMY Auxiliary in others.

A CAP Confederation would spell the end of CAP.  Once CAP is no longer the sort of Congressionally Chartered Organization and direct instrumentality of the USAF (be it in any of their direct COMMANDS); the local "tastes of CAP" will dilute its importance to the USAF and it will slowly dwindle to oblivion.

My point in this hypebole?  Think about what you want to do and be careful what you wish for.

Maj. Carrales:

I do not think that CAP would end up with more uniforms than we already have.  I also don't think that there would be very many administrative differences between wings.

But operationally, yes, you may have a point.

Some states will fly the wings off CAP planes.  Some states MAY dedicate CAP under Army command, since Army NG assets are most frequently used in disasters.   How many searches/disasters/callouts does Rhode Island have?  I don't know, but I'll bet right now that RI Wing's cadet program officer is way busier than their ES officer.  Some small wings may end up with not much more than a cadet program.

I see that as "Flexibility," and not necessarily as a bad thing.

[afgeo4]

Moving CAP under National Guard means the States would be in charge and not the Federal gov't. It means the states would have to find funding for the organization and it means the states would have the right to end the organization.

I say move us to AFSOC cuz lord knows we're "special"

But seriously... I think we'd be a much better fit if we were a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF. That way, no MAJCOM CC would moan and grind about their funding going to us and not to their men/women. It would also mean that we could finally have generals all the way up to 4 stars which would allow our Wing CCs to be Brig Gen and Region CCs to be MajGen, the National CV to be a LtGen and the National CC to be Gen.

That would allow for Group CCs to be Colonel and Squadron CCs to be Major. No, we wouldn't advance in rank faster. We'd have more experienced commanders.

[SAR-EMT1]

Eh... maybe

On the rank issue though, I doubt CAP would ever be allowed a 4 star /CC

[Capt Rivera]

Eh... maybe

On the rank issue though, I doubt CAP would ever be allowed a 4 star /CC

The guard does not even have 4 star generals yet. to my knowledge we are fighting to have the national guard commander be a 4 star and sit with the joint chiefs of staff....

Thats grabbing at a bit much for CAP right now. unless you were talking about the CAP-USAF commander... I would love for that person to have more rank/experience and flexibility. All of the AF benefits from AU... we should need to be under its command to benefit's from it.... There are better places for us.

AU also has to FIGHT for what it gets, there seems to be that mentality that unless what you do kills someone.... lets leave you the way you are until things get really bad... being under a OPERATIONS related command gives us a "speaker" who can say this is where CAP is, this is where it could be, and this is what it needs to get there. and this is why it should be to that level by whatever date. give CAP X -  cap will give you [insert grand mission capability without sacrificing cadet & AE missions].

[JayT]

But seriously... I think we'd be a much better fit if we were a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF. That way, no MAJCOM CC would moan and grind about their funding going to us and not to their men/women. It would also mean that we could finally have generals all the way up to 4 stars which would allow our Wing CCs to be Brig Gen and Region CCs to be MajGen, the National CV to be a LtGen and the National CC to be Gen.

That would allow for Group CCs to be Colonel and Squadron CCs to be Major. No, we wouldn't advance in rank faster. We'd have more experienced commanders.

What exactly would be the point of that?

Changing the rank structure wouldn't 'create more experienced commanders'

To quote Palaninuk

'Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.'

[Capt Rivera]

But seriously... I think we'd be a much better fit if we were a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF. That way, no MAJCOM CC would moan and grind about their funding going to us and not to their men/women. It would also mean that we could finally have generals all the way up to 4 stars which would allow our Wing CCs to be Brig Gen and Region CCs to be MajGen, the National CV to be a LtGen and the National CC to be Gen.

That would allow for Group CCs to be Colonel and Squadron CCs to be Major. No, we wouldn't advance in rank faster. We'd have more experienced commanders.

What exactly would be the point of that?

Changing the rank structure wouldn't 'create more experienced commanders'

To quote Palaninuk

'Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.'

[afgeo4]

But seriously... I think we'd be a much better fit if we were a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF. That way, no MAJCOM CC would moan and grind about their funding going to us and not to their men/women. It would also mean that we could finally have generals all the way up to 4 stars which would allow our Wing CCs to be Brig Gen and Region CCs to be MajGen, the National CV to be a LtGen and the National CC to be Gen.

That would allow for Group CCs to be Colonel and Squadron CCs to be Major. No, we wouldn't advance in rank faster. We'd have more experienced commanders.

What exactly would be the point of that?

Changing the rank structure wouldn't 'create more experienced commanders'

To quote Palaninuk

'Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.'

Allowing a Chicken to hatch from an egg before calling it a Chicken and holding it responsible for being a proper chicken does.

If we allow only the MOST experienced members to promote then we WILL have the most experienced people up top. Keep all the existing requirements for grades as they are now. Add further requirements to higher grades such as Level 6 and Level 7.

[JayT]

But seriously... I think we'd be a much better fit if we were a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF. That way, no MAJCOM CC would moan and grind about their funding going to us and not to their men/women. It would also mean that we could finally have generals all the way up to 4 stars which would allow our Wing CCs to be Brig Gen and Region CCs to be MajGen, the National CV to be a LtGen and the National CC to be Gen.

That would allow for Group CCs to be Colonel and Squadron CCs to be Major. No, we wouldn't advance in rank faster. We'd have more experienced commanders.

What exactly would be the point of that?

Changing the rank structure wouldn't 'create more experienced commanders'

To quote Palaninuk

'Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.'

Allowing a Chicken to hatch from an egg before calling it a Chicken and holding it responsible for being a proper chicken does.

If we allow only the MOST experienced members to promote then we WILL have the most experienced people up top. Keep all the existing requirements for grades as they are now. Add further requirements to higher grades such as Level 6 and Level 7.

Then do it.

Adding in two more grades isn't gonna solve that, and having a few dozen more generals isn't gonna help either.

If you think we have problems in how we promote people, then address the problem. Promoting Wing Commanders to BG and Regional Commanders to MG will do nothing but........cause a bunch of wing and region commanders to have to sew stars onto their collar.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Moving CAP under National Guard means the States would be in charge and not the Federal gov't. It means the states would have to find funding for the organization and it means the states would have the right to end the organization.

I say move us to AFSOC cuz lord knows we're "special"

But seriously... I think we'd be a much better fit if we were a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF. That way, no MAJCOM CC would moan and grind about their funding going to us and not to their men/women. It would also mean that we could finally have generals all the way up to 4 stars which would allow our Wing CCs to be Brig Gen and Region CCs to be MajGen, the National CV to be a LtGen and the National CC to be Gen.

That would allow for Group CCs to be Colonel and Squadron CCs to be Major. No, we wouldn't advance in rank faster. We'd have more experienced commanders.

The federal govt would still control Title 10 funds.  We would have dual command, state and federal, just like Guard  units do.

[afgeo4]

Only when and if activated by the federal government. The Air Force would quickly place the funding burden onto the state's National Guard Bureau to provide funding for every day training rationalizing that most missions would be in-state anyway.

The National Guard doesn't have much money. If you haven't noticed, their soldiers and airmen use the oldest equipment in the military (that's why they're so good at it, they're not spoiled).