Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2010, 02:19:51 PM

Quote from: DogCollar on August 10, 2010, 02:01:42 PM
Because a Chaplain is the only person in CAP who is allowed to be alone, one on one, with a cadet.

100% incorrect.  Time to review your CPPT regs.

Ok...ok...chaplains who are counseling and pilots who are performing o-rides.  I stand corrected.

As far as the Deacon...I understand your concern about all the work that he has done to get to the level he has reached.  I also appreciate that.  I don't have a good answer for you as to why he can't be a chaplain in CAP.  I know that is an unsatisfying answer and I apologize that I can't do better.  I am not on the Chaplain Corps Advisory Counsel and cannot speak to policy development.  As far as the response to the proposal before the National Board, I am supportive of the Chaplain Corps response.

Quote from: DogCollar on August 10, 2010, 06:17:10 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2010, 02:19:51 PM

Quote from: DogCollar on August 10, 2010, 02:01:42 PM
Because a Chaplain is the only person in CAP who is allowed to be alone, one on one, with a cadet.

100% incorrect.  Time to review your CPPT regs.

Ok...ok...chaplains who are counseling and pilots who are performing o-rides.  I stand corrected.

Apparently you don't.

There is no "2-up" rule in CAP with an asterisk for counseling or flying, nor is there a gender requirement.

Anything else is CYA, not required by regulations.  (overnight supervision not withstanding).

Quote from: cap235629 on August 10, 2010, 02:28:18 PM
Also, you still haven't addressed my Deacon example.

Because your Deacon does not have a college degree.  There has to be a line somewhere. 

Chaplain = Chaplain.  Works in the RM.

Dogcollar - I don't know why you think this rates a PM, this is a pretty common discussion and misconception in CAP.

Repeating, there is no rule restricting a senior member from being alone with a cadet, nor any gender requirements in regards to supervision.

Relevant KB article including reg cites:  http://tinyurl.com/33k2obr

Quoted from the KB which paraphrases the regulations in the KB.   
The regulations do not require a specific ratio of senior members to cadets or that senior members are male or female, even if both male and female cadets are present. Commanders must ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. They are encouraged to have at least two senior members present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets. Of course, common sense and good judgment must be considered.

Boy, I must be in trouble for that one year when a fellow C/Exec Staff and I stayed over at a certain SMs house the night before we rolled to encampment!

And to think the horrors! His kids sort of liked us and the SMs wife even offered to feed us, but that time he came down to the basement to iron his uniform, that could have been a tragedy!

Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2010, 06:43:16 PM
Dogcollar - I don't know why you think this rates a PM, this is a pretty common discussion and misconception in CAP.

 

I moved it to PM to keep this thread from getting ugly.  Your original response didn't offer a correction...just that I was 100% wrong.  THAT kind of response should have been a PM.

Quote from: Short Field on August 10, 2010, 06:36:17 PM

Quote from: cap235629 on August 10, 2010, 02:28:18 PM
Also, you still haven't addressed my Deacon example.

Because your Deacon does not have a college degree.  There has to be a line somewhere. 

Chaplain = Chaplain.  Works in the RM.

It is partly due the educational requirement.  Neither the USAF or CAP appoints Deacons as Chaplains.  The criteria is listed in the CAPR 265-1:

b. Ecclesiastical Endorsement.  Chaplains will receive an ecclesiastical endorsement from a faith group listed by the Armed Forces Chaplains Board (AFCB) prior to appointment as a chaplain.  Endorsements are valid until withdrawn or asked to be renewed by the individual endorser.  Chaplains who change denominational affiliation must obtain a new endorsement.  If a new endorsement or renewal is not obtained within 90 days, their chaplain status will be withdrawn.  The endorsement shall certify that the applicant is:
(1) A fully ordained or qualified priest, rabbi, or minister of religion

CAP has followed the criteria set forth by the military branches -- specifically the USAF with whom we have been identified with for our 60 years of existence.

The CAP Chaplain Corps does provide for a waiver for the minister without  a graduate degree.

(3) The Chief of the Chaplain Corps (CAP/HC) may grant a waiver to those who do not meet the graduate study requirement providing they meet all other requirements and present valid documentation of at least 5 years of full time ministry experience as a pastor within their denomination.  Chaplains who receive a waiver are not eligible to provide assistance to the military.   


There is a place that the deacon can most likely serve and that is in the role of Character Development Instructor.   

a Catholic Deacon IS a minister of Religion. This statement just proves my point. Most folks don't have a clue what a Deacon is in the Catholic Church. They are ordained ministers of the Gospel and take the Sacrament of Holy Orders. There are certain things they cannot do but all of the duties of a Chaplain fall into their daily job description. A deacon in the Catholic Church is an ordained member of the clergy, not a lay person.

Anyone know the dates for the upcoming Winter National Boards in DC ?

Thanks

As an Atheist, I had to look this up, but this is from Wiki:

QuoteIn the years just prior to the Second Vatican Council, the only men ordained as deacons were seminarians who were completing the last year or so of graduate theological training, who received the order several months before priestly ordination.

Following the recommendations of the council (in Lumen Gentium 29), in 1967 Pope Paul VI issued the motu proprio Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, restoring the ancient practice of ordaining to the diaconate men who were not candidates for priestly ordination. These men are known as permanent deacons in contrast to those completing their training, who were then called transitional deacons. There is no sacramental difference between the two, however, as there is only one order of deacons.[6]

The permanent diaconate formation period in the Catholic Church entails a four or five year training period that resembles a collegiate course of study. Diaconal candidates receive instruction in philosophy, theology, study of the Holy Scriptures (the Bible), homiletics, sacramental studies, evangelization, ecclesiology, counseling, and pastoral care and ministry before ordination. Although they are assigned to work in a parish by the diocesan bishop, once assigned, deacons are under the supervision of the parish priest.[7] Unlike most clerics, permanent deacons that also have a secular profession have no right to receive a salary for their ministry,[8] but many dioceses opt to remunerate them anyway.

Bolded portions done by me.

Seems like a mostly worthwhile agenda (unlike the last NEC's).  A few thoughts:

Item 12 - Supplements/ICLs -- I'm a little disappointed that they're not really tearing into this regulation.  We've had several threads on issues relating to improving this system. 

Items 23 - Special appointments for HLS/EM specialists -- Concurr with earlier comments that this is taking us in the wrong direction.  Should be looking at eliminating these rather than adding new ones.  As has been said, since there are no real standards in this field, I don't see how we can really match them up with specific CAP ranks anyway. 

I also strongly disagree with the legal officers comments recommending exempting NASAR folks from certain CAP ES requirements.  If they're already NASAR qualified they should be able to zip through CAP's GT tasks in a day and I still think we'd want them to get experience as CAP GT members before moving up. 

Item 24 -- Report on oldest CAP regulations.  I'm interested to see that they're working on revising the history program regulation and the firearms/assistance to law enforcement regulation. 

Quote from: cap235629 on August 10, 2010, 09:06:54 PM
a Catholic Deacon IS a minister of Religion. This statement just proves my point. Most folks don't have a clue what a Deacon is in the Catholic Church. They are ordained ministers of the Gospel and take the Sacrament of Holy Orders. There are certain things they cannot do but all of the duties of a Chaplain fall into their daily job description. A deacon in the Catholic Church is an ordained member of the clergy, not a lay person.

All I can add is that the CAP Chaplain Corps follows the DODI 1304.28 in the appointment of its chaplains -- with the above cited exception of offering a waiver.  CAP Chaplains who have been waivered do not serve as "force multipliers" for the military.  Here's the DODI:  http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130428p.pdf

On another note, I recently guided the application for a Catholic priest to be successfully appointed as a CAP Chaplain.  Applicants must have the approval of the Military Diocese: http://www.catholicmil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=185  and https://milarch.org/.

All endorsing agencies verify the religious qualifications of the applicant (see DOD 2088 - attachment 6 in the DODI).  Unless an applicant has one of these for active/reserve chaplaincy in the military or CAP, there is no appointment.  I am working with a Lutheran minister whose endorser will not give him a DOD 2088 until he has a MDiv.  That is not the fault of the CAP Chaplain Corps that he can't be appointed a Chaplain....that is a matter between him and his endorser.  We have to abide by the DODI 1304.28.  So until the endorsers and DODI 1304.28 change their long held policy, I would encourage your Deacon to pursue becoming a CDI. 

Quote from: DogCollar on August 09, 2010, 06:10:09 PM

Quote from: Patterson on August 08, 2010, 02:35:22 AMItem 22:   CAP Chaplain Qualifications
Wow....the chaplains that shot this down sound like a bunch of good ol' boys, with doctorate degrees who don't want to share the title.  I could give a crap if we support the AF Chaplain Corps.  How about supporting CAP members first.  If they know degrees can be bought online for $35.00, then kick out members who try to use those $35.00 degrees for advanced promotions and entrance into the Chaplain Corps.

I applaud the Chaplain Corps for an unwillingness to water down the chaplain qualifications!!  Chaplains ARE primarily available for CAP members.  That will always be the priority focus.  Yet, some chaplains are also available to assist the Air Force when called upon and this does not distract in anyway, shape or form from the primary focus. 

Not a good ol' boy....but supported the decision made by the CCAC.  I do not hold a doctorate.  I am a CAP Chaplain who came in on the educational waiver (My Masters degree is not from a regionally accredited institution.)  It is a privilege to not only wear the USAF-style uniform but to wear the Chaplain's cross of the USAF Chaplain Corps. 

There is a rich history and legacy that we have.  Part of the 60th Anniversary of the CAP Chaplain Corps observances is the printing of our history.  Check out the 2010 issues of the Transmitter for the on-going series of articles relating to the CAP Chaplain Corps:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_national_hq/chaplain_corps/chaplain_newsletter.cfm. 

It is interesting to note that CAP Chaplain Corps was something in the heart and mind of CAP's founder: Gill Robb Wilson.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2010, 05:24:39 PM
Guys, seriously, I like talking uniform minutia as much as the next guy, but with 20+ things on the agenda and all the other nonsense going on, the only thing anyone here cares about is a ribbon the majority of members won't or can't wear?

We have met the enemy and he is us...

Again more nonsense -- The Army allows their veterans/retirees to wear their medals/ribbons on uniforms of patriot organizations.  I think CAP could be considered a patriotic organization and the white shirt/grey pants meets that standard.

Frankly, IF CAP is so scared to ask the AF if we can wear our "earned" military ribbons on a CAP "patriotic uniforms" aka white aviator shirt, perhaps collectively we can approach our congressional representatives and mentioned about the disparity in the various service regulations and get a consistent law applied to all.

But hey the NB has to fill up it's agenda with something doesn't it   Looks to me like the paid professional staff needs to go to work on this one via "back channels" :angel:
RM 

Quote from: DogCollar on August 10, 2010, 06:17:10 PM
As far as the Deacon...I understand your concern about all the work that he has done to get to the level he has reached.  I also appreciate that.  I don't have a good answer for you as to why he can't be a chaplain in CAP.  I know that is an unsatisfying answer and I apologize that I can't do better. 

CAP chaplains need to be recognized by one of the same denominational "endorsing agencies" that certify ordained ministers (priests, rabbis, imams) for the regular military.

For the Catholic Church that endorsing agency is the Archdiocese for the Military Services, based in Washington, DC. Essentially, the Archdiocese only approves priests as military chaplains, probably because of the limitations that the Catholic Church places on the deacon's role (cannot offer Mass, hear confessions, serve as pastor of a parish, and so forth).

Permanent Deacons are recruited from local dioceses and approved to assist on specific military bases.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 15, 2010, 02:22:22 PMFor the Catholic Church that endorsing agency is the Archdiocese for the Military Services, based in Washington, DC. Essentially, the Archdiocese only approves priests as military chaplains, probably because of the limitations that the Catholic Church places on the deacon's role (cannot offer Mass, hear confessions, serve as pastor of a parish, and so forth).

Permanent Deacons are recruited from local dioceses and approved to assist on specific military bases.

even a lay person can serve as a Pastor of a Catholic Parish.  If a Deacon or a lay person serves as a Pastor there is a Priest assigned as a Sacramental Minister.

A lay person can not serve as pastor or administrator of a Catholic parish.

There may be a lay business administrator; there may be a lay person serving as a 'pastoral associate' or some similar title, helping the priest in charge...but, even if he is not resident in the parish, somewhere a priest is assigned as pastor of the parish.

deleted, sorry, I quoted something that wasn't correct or easy to understand

Quote from: CAP277 on August 10, 2010, 09:11:48 PM
Anyone know the dates for the upcoming Winter National Boards in DC ?

Thanks

From the NationalCapital Wing Calendar, March 2-5 2011.
http://www.natcapwg.cap.gov/calendar

In my notes to my wing/cc, I included my original proposal and asked him to consider bringing it up as an alternative item.