So, for CAP members who can't/don't wear the AF style uniforms, two sets of ribbons are needed. One for holidays and one for regular wear.

Also, how many times would CAP members be in uniform on those specific days? Memorial Day meetings are cancelled. July 4, same. Given the volunteer spirit of many of our members, they're more likely to be working behind the scenes at various holiday events than in a setting where the service uniforms would be worn. Or they're with family and friends, again not in a setting appropriate for service uniforms.

Anyone else see that they are apparently going to start making a WMIRS-based mission management system?  That seems like it would make a lot of sense!  I think I may volunteer to do any work necessary to get that to become a reality.  There is too much paperwork in the mission side of life that is just duplication because of paper and computer requirements.

It's a good idea that requries internet access, which is not always a given.

Quote from: arajca on August 07, 2010, 02:37:45 PM
It's a good idea that requries internet access, which is not always a given.

Add satellite Internet to the super comm truck wish list     If only...

Quote from: SarDragon on August 07, 2010, 04:44:06 AM
If this were authorized, how many members would actually wear the ribbon?

Depends on a few things.  Many prior service types here (on CAP TALK) try to, in fact...go out of their way, to down play the wearing of ribbons.  Most I know tend to wear only there top "three" military service ribbons...our Group Commander makes it a point to only wear CAP Ribbons in his CAP uniform when called for (thus, this option might work for him).

In practice, a goodly number of prior service wear it all...even on the shirt.  It falls under the "I earned them, I'll wear them" mantra.  I think that is a personal choice.

I am not prior service, and I wear my CAP ribbons on my shirt.  I also sometimes go with only the badges.  Some take issue with these descisions, but it is a personal choice that should be respected as much as any other.

Guys, seriously, I like talking uniform minutia as much as the next guy, but with 20+ things on the agenda and all the other nonsense going on, the only thing anyone here cares about is a ribbon the majority of members won't or can't wear?

We have met the enemy and he is us...

Quote from: arajca on August 07, 2010, 02:37:45 PM
It's a good idea that requries internet access, which is not always a given.

ICP's are supposed to be in an area with robust infrastructure.

When they aren't, by the time we get there FEMA and others have rolled in the SAT trucks or otherwise provided connectivity.  The Feds can't operate without it, nor can most supporting agencies (ARC, etc.).

The vast majority of members have internet access on their phone.

Whether the specific plan or system is appropriate is arguable from an operational standpoint, but the argument that when Armageddon hits all we will have is stone tablets no longer flies.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 07, 2010, 03:30:53 PM

Quote from: arajca on August 07, 2010, 02:37:45 PM
It's a good idea that requries internet access, which is not always a given.

Add satellite Internet to the super comm truck wish list     If only...

It's already on mine...

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2010, 05:24:39 PM
Guys, seriously, I like talking uniform minutia as much as the next guy, but with 20+ things on the agenda and all the other nonsense going on, the only thing anyone here cares about is a ribbon the majority of members won't or can't wear?

We have met the enemy and he is us...

Three words - Low Hanging Fruit.

Most of the rest requires thought...

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2010, 05:28:20 PM

Quote from: arajca on August 07, 2010, 02:37:45 PM
It's a good idea that requries internet access, which is not always a given.

ICP's are supposed to be in an area with robust infrastructure.

When they aren't, by the time we get there FEMA and others have rolled in the SAT trucks or otherwise provided connectivity.  The Feds can't operate without it, nor can most supporting agencies (ARC, etc.).

The vast majority of members have internet access on their phone.

Whether the specific plan or system is appropriate is arguable from an operational standpoint, but the argument that when Armageddon hits all we will have is stone tablets no longer flies.

Unfortunately, many areas of the country, particularly in the mountains, lack decent cell phone coverage, let alone internet access. In a disaster environment, the ICP may be set up already in areas without internet. Additionally, we can be called out before FEMA, etc.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2010, 05:28:20 PM

Quote from: arajca on August 07, 2010, 02:37:45 PM
It's a good idea that requries internet access, which is not always a given.

ICP's are supposed to be in an area with robust infrastructure.

When they aren't, by the time we get there FEMA and others have rolled in the SAT trucks or otherwise provided connectivity.  The Feds can't operate without it, nor can most supporting agencies (ARC, etc.).

The vast majority of members have internet access on their phone.

Whether the specific plan or system is appropriate is arguable from an operational standpoint, but the argument that when Armageddon hits all we will have is stone tablets no longer flies.

I have bolded part of Eclipse's comment to make a further point.  Agencies other than CAP routinely have separate Fixed-Wing Airbases apart (and often many miles away) from the ICP.  CAP would do well to remember this.  In a real emergency, such as the next Katrina/Rita, the ICP might need to be in Dallas, while the aircraft operate from a minimal forward Airbase in Gonzales or Baton Rouge.  There should be no need for anything more than simple voice phone service, either cellular or landline, or even HF radio, from the Airbase.  The ICP on the other hand would need full Internet access and would be positioned in an area where that presents no difficulties.

Now, I would of course love to have a tiered system of hardwire Internet, 3G Internet, Satellite Internet, Ham Internet Link, generators, etc. so that we can keep the ICP local and keep it up and running in the face of a disaster, but really that is just wasteful spending on tech we don't need when we should be leveraging the system and our fellow CAP members.  Sometimes the solution is a Process, not a Technology.

To draw an analogy from the civilian business world:  I help companies and educational institutions with Disaster Recovery and Business Continuity.  Basically, after a storm/fire/flood how do you recover and get back to work.  In the very old days people spent millions of dollars to harden their data centers so they could withstand floods or hurricanes.  These days, no one spends more than a token amount of money doing that, what they do spend their money on is this: An alternate location in a different geographical area than that where the primary location is situated that can take over quickly (sometimes instantly...) in the event the primary location is damaged or loses power or Internet access or whatever.  If your primary location is in New Orleans, your backup location might be in Nashville.  The odds of a single disaster affecting both at the same time are remote.  The point is they have learned to only depend on services from locations which were outside of the disasters effects.


Thom

Thom - right on the money.

The proposal for the Armed Forces Veteran ribbon is fine; however I would clarify the wear of the ribbon to these conditions:

QuoteMembers serving on active duty, reserve or national guard status, retirees and veterans discharged under honorable conditions may wear all or any combination of U.S. decorations, service medals and ribbons earned on the USAF-style uniform. However, if the member chooses only to wear the Armed Forces Veteran ribbon to represent his or her prior military service on either the USAF-style or CAP corporate uniform, then only that ribbon, along with CAP ribbons are worn.

Members who wear the corporate uniform may only wear the Armed Forces Veteran ribbon along with CAP ribbons.

Well, I've got some time, so I'll add my two cents, and I'm leaving out the admin items and things where I have No Opinion:

Item 4:  Removal of Face-to-Face Safety Education for Members
Concur - Time to embrace some flexibility

Item 6:  Revision of Introductory Safety Training
Concur - But should Exempt Current Members - Really a change of language and convention to enable future flexibility

Item 10: G1000 Check Ride Requirement
Concur

Item 11: Mission Check Pilots
Concur

Item 12: Standardize Procedures through the use of Supplements and Operating Procedures
Nice idea, but this problem is bigger than just this issue - We need a larger scale attempt to 'revitalize' our standard processes, forms, publications, etc.  If we are going to rely on these documents and procedures then they need to be well-considered, well-documented, and well-standardized throughout the country.  The presence of Local/Wing/Regional exceptions to these should be Rare and only allowed in cases where they are truly necessary.

Item 13:  Creation, Listing, and Distribution of Forms
Same as Item 12 above.

Item 15:   Membership Renewal – Tracking Required Training
This would open a can of worms - If you feel that strongly start a committee (which we'll never hear from again...)

Item 17:  Armed Forces Veteran's Ribbon
Refer to Uniform Committee - That's why we formed one, right? To let them deal with this stuff in a cohesive and coherent manner.

Item 18: Simplification of ID Card and Documentation Requirements
Great Idea, but at the wrong time.  Should have done this 3 years ago, now the new eServices/MIMS/WMIRS/etc. online project is so close it's not worth the time and effort since that project will supplant and obviate this proposal.  Of course, the endgame should be a single photo ID with ties to either a master database, or all the individual back end databases.  Take a look at how the IDs work for Wildland Fire Fighters sometime.  That stuff is amazing.  Scan an ID at a mission base and know everything, including what skills they have, what equipment they've trained on, where they've been, when they've had rest days, when they've been fed, etc.

Item 21: Specialty Tracks
Not a real problem - make the PD officer do their job

Item 22:   CAP Chaplain Qualifications
Personally the Chaplain requirements seem pretty steep, but I'll leave this one in the hands of the Chaplain Corps, they know their calling better than I do

Item 23:  Extension of Professional Appointments and Promotions to Include Homeland Security and Emergency Management Professionals
Nice idea, would help to attract some additional folks with both expertise and ties (read contacts and networking knowledge...) to the HS and Emergency Mgmt. fields, but currently there are very few 'milestone' credentials one could use to judge experience in these fields...would become very subjective...

Item 24:  Regulations
Nice, but why not work faster?

Item 25: Making Accident / Incident Information available to Pilots
Hopefully they are done coming up with a way to sanitize them so they can be widely distributed...

Item 26:  Conduct of Members Using Social Media
Oh man, what a minefield...I recommend someone mumble something about dinner's ready and whatnot and we forget this was ever on the Agenda...



Thom

Item 3: Cadet Safety Officer and Staff Duty Analysis
Instead of adding one, lets get rid of the SDA Program and replace it with something more Tenty-First Century (think online....)

Item 4:  Removal of Face-to-Face Safety Education for Members
YES!!!!  Safety is really starting to eat up time these days.  So much easier to go online, read the safety page, view a presentation or watch a short news story.

Item 5:   Modification to Recognition of Safety Excellence
Why??

Item 6:  Revision of Introductory Safety Training
Roll Basic Safety and ORM into level one course, and make it all online.

Item 7: Change of Language: CAPR 62-2, Addition of Classifications

Item 8: Squadron of Distinction
Point??  The SOD Program is based on luck.  Lucky if a unit can get O-Rides when all the planes are flying Counter Drug.  Luck that the weather didn't suck and the unit didnt cancel 30% of its activities.  Luck that the unit didn't get booted from the Armory they were in to a basement of a VFW.  See my drift?!?!

Item 9: Selection & Appointment Process: NCAC Chair & Vice Chair
ummm....what?!?!  The CAC is an advisory council that has no power.  Why are we wasting time on this issue, when the current system has worked just fine for years and years??  I think I hear the Chairman behind this one!

Item 10: G1000 Check Ride Requirement
WHY DOES THE CONGRESSIONAL SQUADRON HAVE ANY OF THESE PLANES TO BEGIN WITH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?

Item 11: Mission Check Pilots

Item 12: Standardize Procedures through the use of Supplements and Operating Procedures
waste of time and resources. 

Item 13:  Creation, Listing, and Distribution of Forms
See above

Item 14:  Suspension of Membership
Too much time is already given to the IG to complete an investigation.

Item 15:   Membership Renewal – Tracking Required Training
Yes....lets do one more thing that will cost us members!!!!

Item 16: Establishment of a Drug Demand Reduction Officer Member of the Year Award
Why be enrolled in the specialty track?  What if enrolled at the "None" level but you are so awesome at DDR, but can't get the award because you don't have your Tech Rating??

Item 17:  Armed Forces Veteran's Ribbon
How about using this to replace ALL MILITARY RIBBONS WORN?!?!?!?!  Then ask those slim members in AF-Style if they like being told they can not wear their EARNED RIBBONS?!?!?!?!?!?  I guarantee attitudes change real quick!!!!!!!!!!!!

Item 18: Simplification of ID Card and Documentation Requirements
How about an ID Card that get laughed at by the Airman when I pull up to the gate at the Air Force Base. 

Item 19:  CAP National Vice Commander Election
and we care because?!?!?!

Item 20: Confirmation of CS, NFO, NLO, NC, Chaplain

Item 21: Specialty Tracks

Item 22:   CAP Chaplain Qualifications
Wow....the chaplains that shot this down sound like a bunch of good ol' boys, with doctorate degrees who don't want to share the title.  I could give a crap if we support the AF Chaplain Corps.  How about supporting CAP members first.  If they know degrees can be bought online for $35.00, then kick out members who try to use those $35.00 degrees for advanced promotions and entrance into the Chaplain Corps.

Item 23:  Extension of Professional Appointments and Promotions to Include Homeland Security and Emergency Management Professionals
We need to eliminate Professional Appointments, not ADD TO THEM!!!!

Item 24:  Regulations

Item 25: Making Accident / Incident Information available to Pilots
How about available to everyone.  If we said "Lt soandso, rolled the corporate Van over and killed 5 Cadets because he overloaded the cargo area and was driving too fast, perhaps others may listen!!!

Item 26:  Conduct of Members Using Social Media
ummm......what?!?!  Are you kidding me?  Then you will have members going around trying to make other members do or say something just to get the people they hate kicked out of CAP. 

Item 1 & 2 are administrative boiler plate.
No issues

Item 3: Cadet Safety Officer and Staff Duty Analysis
As mentioned, the devil is in the details. An extremely important point is to make sure the Cadet Safety Officer does NOT become the defacto Unit Safety Officer.

Item 4:  Removal of Face-to-Face Safety Education for Members
A better system of tracking compliance is needed. Can a unit safety officer really vouch for a member with some form of evaluation or independent tracking? If members are willing to pencil-whip ES qualifications, what are the odds they'll pencil-whip safety compliance?

Item 5:   Modification to Recognition of Safety Excellence
Unimportant. There have been 3-4 recognition programs in the past 3-6 years, so no one really pays attention to them, except at echelons above reality.

Item 6:  Revision of Introductory Safety Training
Concur with staff statements

Item 7: Change of Language: CAPR 62-2, Addition of Classifications
It makes sense to have the categories defined that NOT a result of anything a CAP member did or did not do.

Item 8: Squadron of Distinction
Does not apply to 99% of CAP units. A formalized GOB process.

Item 9: Selection & Appointment Process: NCAC Chair & Vice Chair
And exactly how would a cadet get the necessary experience to lead the NCAC? This has shades of HWRN all over it.

Item 10: G1000 Check Ride Requirement
No Opinion

Item 11: Mission Check Pilots
No Opinion

Item 12: Standardize Procedures through the use of Supplements and Operating Procedures
In regards to regulations, standardization is a good thing.

Item 13:  Creation, Listing, and Distribution of Forms
Having a single list of forms and the current dates of them makes sense. Many times we are told to use CAPF ###. How hard is it really to make these attachments into real forms?

Item 14:  Suspension of Membership
Non-concur.

Item 15:   Membership Renewal – Tracking Required Training
Interesting, but should not be a high priority item.

Item 16: Establishment of a Drug Demand Reduction Officer Member of the Year Award
Why not? There are many others.

Item 17:  Armed Forces Veteran's Ribbon
I agree with the idea, but not the different devices for each service.

Item 18: Simplification of ID Card and Documentation Requirements
Needs simplifaction. B/A-CUT can be tracked and noted by a check box on the bottom, or a simple colored band – no band=no ROA, blue=Basic, red=Advanced – along one edge.

Item 19:  CAP National Vice Commander Election
No Opinion

Item 20: Confirmation of CS, NFO, NLO, NC, Chaplain
No Opinion

Item 21: Specialty Tracks
Solution looking for problem.

Item 22:   CAP Chaplain Qualifications
No Opinion

Item 23:  Extension of Professional Appointments and Promotions to Include Homeland Security and Emergency Management Professionals
Disagree. It is easy to get a degree in Emergency Management or Homeland Security without ever doing the job or being involved in the field.

Item 24:  Regulations
Good information

Item 25: Making Accident / Incident Information available to Pilots
Making sanitized mishap information available is a good idea. The affected folks will know who is involved. The rest of us don't need to know.

Item 26:  Conduct of Members Using Social Media
Difficult issue, but no information on recommended actions provided, so hard to form an opinion on.

Item 3: Cadet Safety Officer and Staff Duty Analysis
  - Starts off with a faulty premise:  Cadets have reportable incidents because we don't let them be safety officers.   It is ok if they just want to add a safety officer SDA.  However, they are wrong if they think it will change the number of reportable incidents by adding a cadet safety officer.

Item 4:  Removal of Face-to-Face Safety Education for Members
  - Bad idea.  It just lets the pencil whipping get even more prevalent.  "Yes, I read the article in the Safety Beacon so I am good to go".  It would also eliminate the last reason some members ever show up for a meeting.

Item 10: G1000 Check Ride Requirement
  - Concur -  I would much rather fly with someone with current time in the aircraft than someone who passed the Fm 5 ride because the check pilot was feeling kindly toward them..

Item 14:  Suspension of Membership
  -- Non-concur for the reasons stated by Nat Hqs

Item 15:   Membership Renewal – Tracking Required Training
  -- Non-concur.  It just lets weak-willed commanders shift the blame to others for the steps they should already be taking.

Item 17:  Armed Forces Veteran's Ribbon
  -- Non-concur.  Just more bling.  (In the interest of Full Disclosure:  28 years active duty, I don't wear the Air Force Style Uniforms except for the flight suit and I don't wear any ribbons on my white shirt.)

Item 21: Specialty Tracks
  -- Concur.  I don't believe the Professional Development Adviser at National Staff knows what they are talking about when they say the unit PD officer can remove a member's specialty track. 

Item 22:   CAP Chaplain Qualifications
  -- Non-concur.  I know what a CAP Chaplain brings me with the current requirements and I know I can trust them.   Anything less just opens it up to people who join CAP only to proselytize the members. 

Item 23:  Extension of Professional Appointments and Promotions to Include Homeland Security and Emergency Management Professionals
-- Non-concur.  Too broad and no established standards.

Item 26:  Conduct of Members Using Social Media
  -- Non-concur.  There are enough hammers in the organization to correct inappropriate behavior/posting by members if it reaches the serious stage. 

Quote from: Short Field on August 08, 2010, 05:00:38 AM
Item 21: Specialty Tracks
  -- Concur.  I don't believe the Professional Development Adviser at National Staff knows what they are talking about when they say the unit PD officer can remove a member's specialty track. 

According to a friend of mine, a commander has the ability to remove a member's specialty track, yes said friend is a commander.  If wanted, I'll ask them for a screenshot.

These are CAP's most pressing issues of 2010?

Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 08, 2010, 06:36:49 AM

Quote from: Short Field on August 08, 2010, 05:00:38 AM
Item 21: Specialty Tracks
  -- Concur.  I don't believe the Professional Development Adviser at National Staff knows what they are talking about when they say the unit PD officer can remove a member's specialty track. 

According to a friend of mine, a commander has the ability to remove a member's specialty track, yes said friend is a commander.  If wanted, I'll ask them for a screenshot.

I have PDO privileges. I can submit additions, but there's no place to do a deletion, so the quoted assertion is correct. Deletion appears to be a Commander only function.