Ham radio bad, liaison channels good?

[wuzafuzz]

A variety of threads have discussed the use of ham radio by licensed CAP members.  While it's clear we have internal rules against using ham radio to perform CAP duties, the outright prohibition seems curious compared to some other things we do. 

First, our radios contain other liaison frequencies for services not regulated by NTIA.  Second, I know of at least two states that have CAP talkgroups on statewide trunked systems.  How do we justify those uses while completely banning ham, even from a supplemental role?

A few guesses:

• One obvious difference is that ham radio requires individual licensing.  However, no one is suggesting we include amateur frequencies in our CAP radios.
• Perhaps ham radio in CAP is perceived as a threat to our own communications systems?  Funding might dry up if the feds believed we could accomplish our missions using ham radio.
• Using ham radio to supplement our internal comms would exclude non-ham members from some participation.

CAPTalk lawyers: have at it!

[N Harmon]

Perhaps international agreements restrict the use of Ham radio to private citizens and not corporations and government agencies?

[RADIOMAN015]

It all depends how you look at it when/where you are & the operation challenges that occur.

From an organizational standpoint, CAP can't indorse the use of amateur radio equipment & frequencies for CAP's PRIMARY usage, because it would appear to violate FCC rules.  The organization must have it's own taxpayer funded multi million dollar radio system to perform the mission.   

From an individual CAP members' perspective, IF you are a licensed amatuer radio operator (e.g. technician class), it gives you significantly more access to repeaters & others that could help you in an emergency situation.  Furthermore, as we march on to full implementation of rebanding/tighter technical standards, member owned modified ham equipment (such as the Vertex 150's) will become non-compliant.  Overall there will be less radios available, capable/authorized to access the multi million dollar CAP repeater system.

If a mission should come up, the traditional alert methods of telephone, pager, cellphone voice/text message will continue to be used.  However, there's no prohibition for individual CAP members who are licensed hams to be communicating with one another about responding to the situation/coordinating aspects prior to arriving at the squadron to operate the squadron's radio station; obtain the "very small" cache of portable radio equipment; & maybe the squadron van (with installed high power VHF radio) to actually deploy to the mission search area when told by the IC.

Frankly, we need to encourage our ES ground team folks to get study & get licensed for the technician class amateur radio license, and deploy them not only with a CAP radio but also with a less expensive amateur radio portable, for "just in case" emergencies that could occur.

Furthermore, I wouldn't loose any sleep if a 4 to 8 member ground team deployed with only one expensive CAP portable VHF radio (and perhaps some low powered Intra squad radios), had to split up during a search and found that the ISR's (remember that aircraft are prohibited from using ISR radios)  didn't give them the range they needed to effectively communicate with one another, and chose to use their less expensive amateur portable radio, that they were proper licensed/authorized to use, on a amateur radio designated simplex frequency to coordinate their activity.

In the end we have to remember that most squadrons are quite far away from Maxwell headquarters (that in all fairness are forced into these policy decisions).

CAP communications supports the accomplishment of the operational mission.  We need to use our CAP radio system to the maximum extent possible, BUT when/where limitations are encountered "creativity", "flexibility", and just "plain common sense" needs to be applied in using the various communications tools provided by CAP as well as individually owned radio equipment (and other comm devices)  funded by our membership.       
RM     

[wuzafuzz]

I don't think "it depends how you look at it," the rules are pretty clear.

What you seem to be proposing is endorsing, "wink wink," ham radio as a secondary communications medium to overcome operational challenges.  This is currently contrary to the rules. 

If there is a REAL emergency, you do what you have to do and don't look back.  That doesn't support using amateur radio as a backup or tactical system.  As  CUL I'll have some explaining to do if I designate an amateur frequency or repeater pair for "backup" use during a mission.

We aren't talking about idle chit-chat here.  If you have a ham ticket, GMRS, etc and decide to talk about things incidental to CAP, go for it.  When it becomes a tool to accomplish your mission it runs afoul of the current rules.

Instead, we should be lobbying like the dickens to obtain more radios to use on the CAP system.

As for the purpose of my original post, I was curious why liaison or mutual aid channels are OK when ham isn't.

[FW]

As for the purpose of my original post, I was curious why liaison or mutual aid channels are OK when ham isn't.

I am by no means a comm expert however, to my limited and, maybe, flawed knowledge:
Liason/Mutual aid channels are also under NTIA  (the services may not be covered but the channels are)
Ham radio freqs. are under FCC
I wonder if that is the deciding factor.

Also, the CAP radio network is a single user nationwide system  for CAP business.  If we need to talk to other agencies, we can using our own network.  So far,  the taxpayer has funded the modernization of our system for about $10 million.  I think there will be more money to keep things going for some time because the other "agencies" we work with are satisfied with our service. 

Even though Ham Radio is a great thing (i've been associated with it for about 25 years now as KA3VAC), I think we are comparing apples with oranges here.

[RRLE]

Before thinking that you can use amateur frequencies to conduct CAP business, consider the following FCC rule.

Sec. 97.113  Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services.

[maverik]

Well if used as a secondary comms system then we would not be in violation of the rule since we wouldn't run say a net on it. Also Iam talking using ham on a mission when there is no alternative.

[arajca]

The Amatuer Radio lobby is been effective in prohibiting federal governement entities from using ham freqs for their communications. Which protects the spectrum used by hams.

CAP members have a bad habit of ignoring limitations on rules. If CAP were to allow the use of ham freqs strictly for liaison, as has been suggested, it would only be a short matter of time until some members start using them for CAP business, regardless of the regulatory limits, due to convience and cost.

[RRLE]

Also Iam talking using ham on a mission when there is no alternative.

The FCC will never buy that CAP had no alternative then the illegal use of the amateur frequencies. To put this bluntly, if a CAP squadron, group, wing or Nat is too cheap to buy CAP frequenciy radios then that does not give any CAP member, squadron, group, wing or Nat permission to use amateur frequencies for routinte use.

The alternative is the frequenices CAP has assigned to it. If a CAP member or group doesn't have CAP frequency radios then it cannot communicate that day. CAP cannot just barge into another radio service (amateur or other) just because it doesn't have its own radios. Being cheap about supplying the hardware to use those frequencies does not make amateur radio an alternative.

since we wouldn't run say a net on it

The rules say nothing about running nets. Using amateur frequencies to communicate CAP info on a point-to-point basis is 'regular use'. Neither the FCC nor non-CAP hams would take this abuse of the amateur radio service lightly.

An amateur radio license does not give the licensee permission to use amateur frequencies for offical government or private business use unless there is a disaster and immediate danger to life or property. While under orders, CAP is a government agency and when not under orders it is a private corporation. Neither is allowed to use amateur frequencies to further its business except in the disaster situation mentioned above.

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure this is too off-topic or not...But what if your state has their own radio network and has made radios programmed for its use available to CAP.  Can CAP use those for CAP to CAP communication or only CAP to the other agency(ies)? 

[cap235629]

I'm not sure this is too off-topic or not...But what if your state has their own radio network and has made radios programmed for its use available to CAP.  Can CAP use those for CAP to CAP communication or only CAP to the other agency(ies)?

Arkansas wing is in this situation.  We have a statewide trunked radio network in Arkansas for public safety agencies.  There are specific talkgroups for each agency as well as interoperability channels. 

Arkansas Wing received radios on this system because we are part of the State's emergency response plan for various disasters both natural and manmade.  This system is FAR superior to the Arkansas Wing VHF nets.  If I had my way, we would use this system exclusively.

That being said, It is a liason radio and can only be used to transmit CAP official traffic if all other corporate radio assets can not be used to transmit the traffic.

I have on 2 separate occasions in the past 2 years seen this done.  Both times were live SAR missions and CAP radios could not accomplish the needed communication.

According to our Wing DC this this is the only time it can be used and according to 100-1, this is correct.

[BTCS1*]

Add that the frequencies being used(ham) could be transmited on by other hams, possibly mistaking I for an ARES net. But I do think that it should not be banned, I do know however, that NYWG/SEG HQ in Westchester has a club sign and ham equiptment under the call K2CAP, the trustee is WA2NRV, Major Rothman.

[sardak]

Clues as to CAP's justification for prohibiting the use of ham radio can be found in the CAP-American Radio Relay League (ARRL) MOU. It's really a baffling MOU as it pretty much says that CAP won't and can't use ham radio, but we have this MOU with the largest ham group in the US anyway.

From the MOU: Therefore, use of Amateur Radio while acting as a CAP member is inconsistent with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Regulations, including 47 CFR §97.113(a)(3) and §97.113(a)(5) and the U.S. Government Table of Frequency Allocations contained in the NTIA Manual of Regulations and Procedures for Federal Radio Frequency Management (47 CFR 300).

Sec. 97.113  Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
    (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer.
    (5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services.

Sec. 300.1  Incorporation by reference of the Manual of Regulations and Procedures for Federal Radio Frequency Management.
    (b) The Federal agencies shall comply with the requirements set forth in the May 1992 edition of the NTIA Manual, as revised...

Personally, I think the prohibition under (a)(3) using the rationale that CAP members have a pecuniary (financial) interest because we are covered by FTCA and FECA (as stated in 100-1) is a real stretch. The employer part is also hard to agree with. These only apply on AFAMs, but 100-1 is blanket coverage on all CAP activities.

Compare CAP to the National Weather Service's (NWS) SKYWARN(R) program which uses hams to transmit and receive severe weather information. This is not considered use on a regular basis or as emergency comms, which is authorized by both FCC and NTIA. Many NWS weather forecast offices (WFO) have ham radio equipment installed in the offices. I know of several NWS meteorologists who are licensed hams and will use the equipment to talk with hams in the field. On active weather days hams operate the equipment in the offices because, of course, the weather folks are really busy.

Club stations, which require licensed hams as trustees and have many other rules defined by the FCC, are set up in many WFOs, with some clubs having the name of the WFO and even more having "vanity" callsigns with the ID of the WFO. A few examples are WX0DEN (Denver/Boulder), WX0STL (St. Louis), WX2BGM (Binghamton), WX4NHC (National Hurricane Center).

Mike

[sardak]

First, our radios contain other liaison frequencies for services not regulated by NTIA.  Second, I know of at least two states that have CAP talkgroups on statewide trunked systems.  How do we justify those uses while completely banning ham, even from a supplemental role?
--------------------
I am by no means a comm expert however, to my limited and, maybe, flawed knowledge:
Liaison/Mutual aid channels are also under NTIA  (the services may not be covered but the channels are)
Ham radio freqs. are under FCC
----------------------
I'm not sure this is too off-topic or not...But what if your state has their own radio network and has made radios programmed for its use available to CAP.  Can CAP use those for CAP to CAP communication or only CAP to the other agency(ies)?

There are both federal (NTIA) and non-federal (FCC) liaison, mutual aid and interoperability frequencies. FCC and NTIA rules make it very clear that just because these frequencies exist, the two sides cannot automatically use the other's freqs. The DHS National Interoperability Field Operations Guide (NIFOG) sums it up this way:

   1. The FCC and NTIA rules allow for some flexibility in frequency use by personnel directly involved in a situation where human life or property are endangered. This does NOT mean "In an emergency, anything goes."
   2. For communications not covered by #1, your use of a radio frequency must be authorized by:
     a. Your (or your agency's) FCC license or NTIA authorization
     b. "License by rule" – a provision in FCC rules that authorizes use of a radio frequency under specified conditions without a specific license or authorization issued to the user
     c. A "Special Temporary Authorization" provided by FCC or NTIA.

NTIA and FCC also allow federal agencies to use non-federal frequencies in the FCC's Part 90 Private Land Mobile Radio Service on a regular basis. Part 90 includes all the public safety frequencies including 700/800 MHz digital trunked radio (DTR) systems. From the NTIA Manual:
Provision is made in part 7.12 for a Federal radio station to use any frequency authorized to a non-Federal radio station under Part 90 of the Rules of the Federal Communications Commission where such utilization is necessary for intercommunication with non-Federal stations or required for coordination with non-Federal activities, provided a mutually-approved arrangement has been concluded between the Federal agency concerned, the Federal Communications Commission, and the non-Federal licensee involved.

Two steps are required to conclude a mutually- approved arrangement. The Federal agency must obtain from the non-Federal licensee a written certification that the Federal operation is necessary, and, after receipt of the certification, the Federal agency must coordinate the proposed usage with the FCC.

In our state, CAP has a couple of statewide DTR talk groups for CAP-to-CAP comm only. There is a statewide SAR talk group which CAP is not authorized on. There are however, mutual aid talk groups that by the state comm plan all radios on the DTR system must have. This past winter we had a missing aircraft search in which 13 different agencies, including CAP, in five counties were able to talk with one another using one of the state mutual aid talk groups. Overall, there are 543 local, state and federal agencies on the state network.

Conversely, NTIA and FCC allow non-federal agencies to use some federal frequencies.
NTIA has specified forty (40) Federal Government frequencies that can be used by non-Federal government public safety entities for communications involving coordination and cooperation with Federal Government agencies. In order for non-Federal public safety entities to use these frequencies they must obtain a license from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).  License applications must contain written certification from a Federal Government agency that use of the requested frequency or frequencies is necessary to improve interoperability communications between the applicant and the Federal Government agency during emergencies.

Do I believe that CAP has written agreements and plans coordinated with the FCC for all the non-federal mutual aid and other frequencies CAP units use nationwide? No. Nor do I believe that non-federal agencies have the proper authorizations to use federal freqs.

Does it matter? Generally not until a user complains.

Mike

[wuzafuzz]

CAP members have a bad habit of ignoring limitations on rules. If CAP were to allow the use of ham freqs strictly for liaison, as has been suggested, it would only be a short matter of time until some members start using them for CAP business, regardless of the regulatory limits, due to convience and cost.

I suspect you hit the nail on the head.  Ironic, since licensed amateur radio operators are supposed to be self-policing. 

The CAP prohibition seems unnecessarily harsh, taking the most conservative interpretation possible.  If there is a compelling history of CAP hams going "too far" I can see how it might have come about.  Is there an actual documented history of that happening or is our rule a prevention measure?

The assertions that CAP is completely prohibited by FCC and NTIA regs are a huge stretch, especially the pecuniary interest part.  It's obvious we can't use amateur radio for CAP to CAP comms. Case closed on that.  However,  interoperability use would seem permissible under the FCC and NTIA rules.  NWS's participation in SKYWARN proves it. No one is telling them to cease and desist.  To the contrary, that program is enthusiastically embraced by ARRL and the feds.

It will be interesting to see if CAP only talkgroups on state-wide trunked systems eventually earn a similar prohibition from NHQ.  CAP to CAP comms are not interoperability use as described by the FCC Part 90 section sardak mentions.  It would be a shame to lose it, but NHQ's parochial view of comm is such that I wouldn't be surprised by a "talkgroup smackdown."

[RRLE]

The ARRL CAP MOU also answers the question about how does CAP coordinates with the ARRL or amateur radio in general.

6. Carry out joint training exercises to provide simulated emergency and disaster communications support when suitable occasions are identified at local, regional, or national levels. These exercises may include CAP training missions in which Amateur Radio volunteers use their personal equipment on Amateur frequencies while CAP volunteers use equipment approved for CAP operation on Federal frequencies assigned to CAP.

The equipment and operators are co-located and neither steps on the other's frequencies.

[RADIOMAN015]

The Amatuer Radio lobby is been effective in prohibiting federal governement entities from using ham freqs for their communications. Which protects the spectrum used by hams.

CAP members have a bad habit of ignoring limitations on rules. If CAP were to allow the use of ham freqs strictly for liaison, as has been suggested, it would only be a short matter of time until some members start using them for CAP business, regardless of the regulatory limits, due to convience and cost.

Well the last time I looked I am also a member of the ARRL & trained ARES member who participates in 2 weekly repeater  nets (VHF/UHF) & 1 simplex emergency VHF net every week without fail.  I'm not advocating using amateur radio as our primary communications system, BUT things happen in real world operations, far from Maxwell's policy making.

I do think the new proposed CAPR 100-1, at least cracks the window of opportunity for amateur radio operators to assist CAP and also gives CAP members the opportunity to choose to use amateur radio equipment, (however restricted from signing into a mission).  Of course at the policy making level this makes perfect sense, in a perfect communications world.

Realistically perhaps the best approach is "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL!", everyone can go on their merry way accomplishing the mission, using ideally CAP radio communications systems, BUT if it doesn't work choosing another radio system (or non radio system), that supports mission success is what we as communicators must do
RM

[RiverAux]

Personally, I have a hard time understanding the justirfication for the limitations on use of any particular frequency either by CAP regulation, federal laws, or anything else in an emergency situation.

Just read about almost any recent disaster and the biggest problem has been interagency communications since everyone is using their own equipment and frequencies with very little interaction.  It seems that we've locked ourselves into this straightjacket that makes it more difficult to work with other folks rather than easier.

Sure, if we're talking about routine operations everyone should stay in their own box, but there needs to be something that loosens these rules in emergency situations.

[JoeTomasone]

Well, the issue is that there are different types of emergencies.


One is the type where you have an immediate threat to life (or property, but life is easier to understand/justify).    If someone on a GT has a heart attack, for example, and you can't contact anyone via CAP radio or cell phone and your ham radio is the last shot you have, you take it.   

The second is the Katrina-type scenario where it is more a recovery effort even though it may have been declared a disaster/emergency.   Here, the same sense of urgency does not apply.  I can see ham radio assisting in CAP comms (co-located teams), but no CAP use of ham frequencies.   

However, what I don't necessarily agree with is a prohibition on liaison activity by CAP hams -- i.e. an MRO/CUL using ham radio to contact a ham station with messages to pass or receive.   If it is done using the ham callsign, I really don't see a valid reason to have a policy that prohibits this.   It's like having a co-located ham and CAP member all in one person.   Saves a resource as well.

[wingnut55]

Great Discussion!!

I wonder if we have forgotten that the CAP equipment is owned by the US Government/USAF and the frequency assignments in CAP is US Government (USAF). I believe that at one time the USAF used our frequencies and turned them over to CAP/USAF in the 1960s and 1970s.