SAR question

[Larry Mangum]

Until CAP drops the 'ground team' nomenclature and adopts NASAR SARTECH II as the minimum acceptable ground ES rating, CAP will never be included in missing person search.  The civilian SAR and LE community doesn't know what CAP Ground Teams are, nor do they care.  They only want to know if you are SARTECH rated. This has been beaten to death here over the years. 

If NHQ can't let go of the 'ground team' rating system, then it's up to the local units to train up and certify their people as SARTECHs at the local level and work it from there by developing those all-important relationships with local SAR teams and Sheriff departments.  THAT's how you get included on SAR missions, and then walk the walk and develop a sound, credible reputation.

Civil Air Patrol most certainly can be a First Responder organization.  There is not one thing that says when a missing person call comes in that the first-in agency can't be CAP, if there is a solid plan and personnel in place.


It shouldn't come as a shock to some, but I'm seeing it has that all those years of chasing ELT's around airports wasn't entirely productive.   

NASAR is not necessarliy the answer either.  First of all, almost all GTM3 can take and pass the NASAR SARTech III  exam without ever taking the NASAR Course and I am willing to bet any NESA GSAR graduate can take and pass the SARTech II course. So what is the issue? Cost and availability to start. The cost is about $65 to $80. per test, and $55 to $70 per course and they course and tests are only availble in or from a limited number of people and venues. Right now unless you are in AR,TX, IN or Ohio, you are out of luck for a course and if you want to take an exam you need to be in FL, CA, GA or OH.

So logistically and monetarily, it just is not feasable for CAP nationwide to adopt NASAR certification. Plus, being one of those guy's that man state EOC's representing CAP, I can tell you that NASAR is not the gold standard and that they get looked down as "NASAR Killer" and bad mouthed just as bad as CAP does when they let their ego's get in the way.

[Devil Doc]

I can tell you that ive looked at the NASAR Certifications. Who is the person that said that is the Standard? As stated before im sure any GT1 Member can perform the same capacity if not better than any NASAR Certification. Wouldnt it benefit NASAR to collaborate with CAP to get us all Certified? I think the main reason why we are not used is because of funding. If Fire Dept A and Rescue Squad B want to do SAR and need funding, they dont want to split the pot with CAP. Something along the lines of that.

[LTC Don]

NASAR is not necessarliy the answer either.  First of all, almost all GTM3 can take and pass the NASAR SARTech III  exam without ever taking the NASAR Course and I am willing to bet any NESA GSAR graduate can take and pass the SARTech II course. So what is the issue? Cost and availability to start. The cost is about $65 to $80. per test, and $55 to $70 per course and they course and tests are only availble in or from a limited number of people and venues. Right now unless you are in AR,TX, IN or Ohio, you are out of luck for a course and if you want to take an exam you need to be in FL, CA, GA or OH.

So logistically and monetarily, it just is not feasable for CAP nationwide to adopt NASAR certification. Plus, being one of those guy's that man state EOC's representing CAP, I can tell you that NASAR is not the gold standard and that they get looked down as "NASAR Killer" and bad mouthed just as bad as CAP does when they let their ego's get in the way.

And, the QWERTY keyboard design isn't the best answer either, but guess what?  That's the design that stuck and that's what we have today.

I'm not saying it's an ideal situation, but again, as long as we continue to play in our own sandbox, looking wistfully at the sky waiting for planes to fall, the rest of the world moves on.  That's why CAP is for all intents and purposes, out of the SAR game (I would say it never really was in the SAR game.  Somewhere down the line, CAP diverged and went off into la-la land).

Missing person search usually starts as a law enforcement case at the local level, and the case escalates from there, either into a criminal case, or an actual lost person.  Those local level agencies don't know CAP-speak, they know ICS and NASAR-speak.  When they hear CAP has 'ground teams', they have no clue what that means.  For all they know we are gardening experts.  The current ground team training is not appropriate for missing person search.  The are several elements of the SARTECH curriculum specific to missing person search that CAP does not have or seems interested in teaching/adopting.

Is this true for all parts of the country, certainly not but for many, it is.  Whether you like it or not, NASAR is the defacto standard even though their is also an ASTM committee on Search and Rescue as a standards development body.  http://www.astm.org/COMMITTEE/F32.htm

It would make so much more sense to just drop the ground team qualifications, adopt SARTECH as the general ground SAR qualification, and just include the relevant modules as needed unique to aircraft search.  Cost -- Yes there is a cost.  Is that something CAP nationally can work with?  Who knows?  I don't.   Heck, it seems to me if CAP can manage to afford a race car sponsorship, why can't CAP just buy NASAR and thus the rights to the SARTECH curriculum.  CAP can charge a small nominal fee for the certification, and thus eventually raise that money back to the corporation.  For non-CAP members, the fee would be slightly higher.  Hmm.....  Beyond that, members who want to participate should be able to be reimbursed for the certification fee.  There is absolutely nothing that says a member should have to bear that financial burden.  Squadrons should be reimbursing their members for expenses as much as they can.  The real benefit here is that SARTECH is a one-time expense, it doesn't have to be renewed so the only thing the member has to deal with is proficiency training.

Those that continue to cling to the whole 'ground team' thing (you know, like the bible and guns thing), will continue to perpetuate the lack of (real) mission involvement by CAP in missing person search.  Which is sad because CAP brings so much to the table as a real player.

[Devil Doc]

LTC Don i have trained with you in the passed. You ae very knowlegable. Is there any future in NC as in SAR and DR? Why hasnt CAP adopted NASAR? I dont think NASAR is that great, because of the availability its not so great.

[usafcap1]

Well found out why Washington doesn't call CAP for SAR.

1. WA state has no money

2. WA state will never call CAP for any SAR mission unless we register for WSDOT

3. My commander says that "WA state is the only state that does not call CAP for SAR" and that "I could go to any other state and do SAR"

[usafcap1]

The 85% of inland SAR... Not WA! 

[PHall]

So what is stopping WAWG from registering with WSDOT?
CAWG works with CalEMA and has so for years.
Doesn't cost us anything and it ensures that we have a seat at the table.

[Larry Mangum]

Well found out why Washington doesn't call CAP for SAR.

1. WA state has no money

2. WA state will never call CAP for any SAR mission unless we register for WSDOT

3. My commander says that "WA state is the only state that does not call CAP for SAR" and that "I could go to any other state and do SAR"

Not true, a lot of members of WAWg are registered with WSDOT and particpate in SAR. A review of WIMRS data for FY12 shows that WAWG ranked 2nd in the nation for actual SAR hrs flown (265 hours of A1 coded missions). As a cadet though, you are probably refering to ground team missions and that is not controlled by WSDOT but by each County Sheriff.

[Майор Хаткевич]

He's no longer a cadet.

[Larry Mangum]

He's no longer a cadet.

True, but he also according to his tag line, does not hold any ES ratings other than FLM. As a 20 year old Flight officer, he can train as an aircrew member or for ground. Both in February and in March, WAWG is conducting aircrew training along with training inconjunction with WSDOT.

[usafcap1]

So what is stopping WAWG from registering with WSDOT?
CAWG works with CalEMA and has so for years.
Doesn't cost us anything and it ensures that we have a seat at the table.

WSDOT does not like CAP.

[usafcap1]

He's no longer a cadet.

True, but he also according to his tag line, does not hold any ES ratings other than FLM. As a 20 year old Flight officer, he can train as an aircrew member or for ground. Both in February and in March, WAWG is conducting aircrew training along with training inconjunction with WSDOT.

WOW its almost like you were reading my calendar. But yes by June I will be aircrew trained and more inclunding WSDOT aircrew.

[PHall]

So what is stopping WAWG from registering with WSDOT?
CAWG works with CalEMA and has so for years.
Doesn't cost us anything and it ensures that we have a seat at the table.

WSDOT does not like CAP.

And you know this how?   Hearsay? Heard it from a guy who knows a guy. What?

[usafcap1]

So what is stopping WAWG from registering with WSDOT?
CAWG works with CalEMA and has so for years.
Doesn't cost us anything and it ensures that we have a seat at the table.

WSDOT does not like CAP.

And you know this how?   Hearsay? Heard it from a guy who knows a guy. What?

Heard it from my old ES Officer and a few wsdot sar guys

[Larry Mangum]

So what is stopping WAWG from registering with WSDOT?
CAWG works with CalEMA and has so for years.
Doesn't cost us anything and it ensures that we have a seat at the table.

WSDOT does not like CAP.

What WSDOTA does not like is people who self deploy or people without adequate training. I have worked very closely with WSDOTA in the past and consider the SAR Cordinator a good friend.

BTW, If you think WSDOT does not like CAP, take a look at where the majority of their resources received their initial training. Heck look at where the SAR Coordinator got his training and expertise which allowed him to be qualified for the job. Hint, he was a CAP Lt Col, NESA GSAR instructor, PCR staff officer, and WAWG DO and ES officer.
And you know this how?   Hearsay? Heard it from a guy who knows a guy. What?

Heard it from my old ES Officer and a few wsdot sar guys

[usafcap1]

Nothing heard